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  1. - Top - End - #481
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Believe it or not, the way your Force Fling would work makes it almost entirely pointless on a damage front by level 6-7 somewhere, just compare your figures to the damage a reasonably focused battle bard can do, and you'll see my reasoning. TKs are in the same category as stuff like Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, etc, they're an uber-specialised caster with an arsenal of familiar-looking yet unique abilities. Our current version of Force Fling actually scales up around 30% behind weapon builds, so the damage is not high, but always worth a punt. Also remember the size of enemies tends to go up the higher the CR, by your system, again you'd not be lifting as much as you may think at later levels, whereas our system again gives options and a good scale. It's harder than it looks to make stuff scale AND balance at the same time, without rather complex maths for both developer AND player.

    You may well use a lot of 3rd party stuff, but honestly, if you take away the Wild Talent, then there is NOTHING in TK left which benefits much at all from any feat I dare you to find outside of this thread!

    Looking forward to your playtest results, more data is ALWAYS welcome!
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

    My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
    Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
    World Warper
    Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC

  2. - Top - End - #482
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    So, just a little update. My crazy high powered game came to an end because of various reasons, so no more news from the high levels. Luckily we are doing another campaign starting at level 6. So I have me and my cohort as TKs. I am playing the Pure again because I am more of a caster like person, and I made him unarmed in order to finally get that and TK Fighting playtested by me. Already I have felt the need to balance a few things lol.

    I am sure this bit is an oversight on our part...or maybe it was mentioned and I never got around to it (very likely)...but with TK Fighting there is no limit to the number of Hands you can invest to add 1/2 cha to dmg. So with out any real optimizing (Only using basic wealth, cha and con at base 18), you could make a level 6 TK with 1d6+cha+8*1/2cha=1d6+25dmg=avg of 28 dmg. Doesn't seem to high, but let's add some perspective, this same char at level 6 could have 66 hp max. He could basically kill himself in just over 1 full attack. At level 1, he could have made a weapon deal 1d6+12=avg of 15.5 dmg. More than enough to kill most people at first. Then at higher levels, because let's see how broke it gets, let's say 15. 2 +6 items. 18 Hands (+8 con +7cha) 1d6+7+.5*17*7=10.5+59.5=70 avg dmg per hit = 210 avg dmg per round. He COULD have a max of 225 HP if he rolled max every level. Limited this would be reigned in a bit to 10.5+.5*15*7=63 avg=189 avg per round.

    Although I just realized at 16, optimal dmg is achieved by having lots of weapons attacking the same guy, so refigured using stats from above plus 1 level becomes: 18*(1d6+7)*4=18*10.5*4=756. Yup definitely adding into the ability that you may only have a total number of Hands invested in TK Fighting (Weapons and additional dmg) equal to your HD. =to HD because that allows it to advance past epic and keep scaling.

    Thoughts on that bit?

    Also, LMMH needs to be fixed. As is I believe we made a typo because it grants you 1 Hand at 1st then the next at 10, 15, 20. Kind skipped 5 and made you spend a 1st level feat for something that doesn't improve until 9 levels later. I believe the intent was to make it 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 right?

  3. - Top - End - #483
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Hey, my campaign finally started so I thought I'd post my findings.

    It would be nice if I could use strength checks to move objects via telekinesis; the "by weight" system doesn't really make sense when dealing with a boulder that requires a dc 18 strength check to move or the like. Right now I'm going with "cha check" and "maybe some benefit frm extra hands, like +2 per 2 hands?

    I used my system of force fling from a few posts ago for about 20 minutes before getting angry at it and just switching back to the system described in the class itself. Now that I know its more or less how the telekinesis spell works, I'm a bit more accepting of it.

    I agree that limiting the number of hands I can wield a weapon with is a good idea, but at the current level its about the only way our party is dealing damage, using 5 hands on a sword. Its certainly the only way I can do it with the class right now. You've made the class too hax-proof!

    I needed to look something up from the class while the website was down, and found numerous other telekinetic classes. While the basic framework in this version for this is by far the best, I am thinking of looking into abilities of the others for some inspiration on making perhaps my own acf. So far I've got some emulated spells, and having the shatter version of fling eventually upgrade into being able to burst the object as an aoe.

    Sidenote: being able to shatter anything with that ability mainly lead to me wanting to shatter stupid things like pillows, or just implode the trunks of whole trees and watching them fall. Should be somehow more limited but I haven't the foggiest how. The sorts of being able to destroy everything that allows is pretty impressive, particularly when targeting a foe's gear. Though I have enough trouble with just the shatter spell; when the item I spent so much time and effort acquiring or is even a major part of my class abilities is just effortlessly destroyed. I'm not sure if we've just been using it wrong or if my dm is just cruel and heartless but I've lost my fair share of items to shatter.

    Edit: I'm actually doing quite well for feats without wild talent / psionic ones. I've got like, 8 so far (we're the sort of group that tends to use a lot of hax and like feats...) and I've got many lined up for future levels. Most of the ones I have so far are racial, things for helping me with undeadness, but even if I werent using 3rd party and undead feats there is a large selection of feats. And if you really were interested in psionic feats, you can always just take wild talent, like, as a feat.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2013-04-29 at 08:25 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #484
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I look forward to more of your adventures. They sound fairly promising :)

    I need to find a way to make that wording more clear lol. For the str check you are doing it almost right. For all things being done with Hands Cha replaces the relevant stat. You may invest Hands in the task at the rate of +2/Hand.

    You know, when writing up Fling, I did not even look at the spell. In fact, most of the class was designed without ever actually looking at that (by me at least). I knew it existed, and that it had three types of things it could do, but never the specifics lol. So that is amusing that I accidentally just made a better method of the spell ability :).

    Keep in mind, this class isn't supposed to be the front line fighter with buckets of damage. They are supposed to be combat support with ways of defending themselves as needed, or being a second line fighter. I take your hax-proof comment as a compliment, so thank you :D

    As for needing to look stuff up when the thread goes down, I know that problem. Had to look up some stuff on Sunday. Luckily I basically remember most of the crunch of this class by now lol. However, I do know that Bob set up a back up version on another site. Just checked it and it's a bit outdated, but it exists.

    You know, those exact things are part of what I wanted to create with the shatter effect. It is only slightly better than the spell itself, since the spell let's you shatter anything too. Ours is just more generous with the weight to be destroyed and switches the save from will (which doesn't make sense really) to straight up Fortitude and including the line that makes them actually susceptible to it. Since you seem to have issues with shatter and your dm, do note that if you ever have an item targeted by shatter, it gets to use your saving throws as long as it is in your possession. So they really shouldn't be able to shatter too much of your stuff...the TK however cares little for your happiness :P

    As to feats, wild talent is a part of the class because it is a psionic class.

    I do look forward to your adventures, future potential class additions, and balance suggestions!

    EDIT: I am actually going through the class right now to make sure I have all the current changes in effect. I would really love if someone would go through and reread the entire class to make sure I didn't miss something...

    Also, feat idea for Unarmed ACF: Ability to make weapons with reach. Is it necessary? Also maybe create some kind of weapon power attack?
    And another glaring issue with the unarmed just caught my eye. There currently exists no method for them to be enchanted...which means they might quickly become irrelevant...maybe let them be effected by amulet of natural weapons? Hmm...that seems like a nice bandaid, but i see the potential for very easy abuse. "I'll take 20 wounding blades as one attack roll please!" Help?
    Last edited by DerTollUdo; 2013-04-29 at 10:32 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #485
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Actually my feats comment was in response to Vekalim's comment of "You may well use a lot of 3rd party stuff, but honestly, if you take away the Wild Talent, then there is NOTHING in TK left which benefits much at all from any feat I dare you to find outside of this thread!" so why I brought that up.

    Being haxproof is good, but my partner has 10 attacks per round, blindsight, and immunity to damage that isnt fire/acid; and we're level 2. We bleed hax, not being able to employ it to much more then my using cha for hands is kinda throttling me so far. (actually I'm the only one who can really do damage so far, even with the hands nerf, so its all okay.)

    I became interested momentarily in the unarmed version after looking at other classes, but the implementation seemed a bit poor. Creating virtual weapons seemed like an odd choice to me. I would have gone for a changearound of the whole system, make the weapons less localized; just creating cuts / stabs / smashes in the air. You wouldn't be able to aoo with them, but their exact location isnt necessary, just attack anywhere in the area. (This part of theory isnt necessary, just a thought for having less existent weapons). I found the damage calculation to be a bit confusing though, I was expecting something where the weapon damage scaled a bit better, like just stapling monk unarmed damage to it.

  6. - Top - End - #486
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    So, it's been a while. Wondering if anybody has any updates? I know that my game has been going really slow so no real progress from me.

  7. - Top - End - #487
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    My game has similarly been slow. I've only had one real misbalance to report, I've been using the "cha as strength checks to burst objects / move objects requiring a str check" sort of thing, and +2 per hand is, well, a lot. At level 4 I've been easily getting +19 or so on strength checks. Together with shatter at next level, I've noticed that this class is phenomenally skilled at just destroying objects on whim.

  8. - Top - End - #488
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Hmm. I can see the abuse. I will add in that you may only invest up to your level in the +2. That should cut that off before it gets problematic, and when it would be problematic it won't much matter anyway as that won't be till much later when there are better things to use your hands on.

  9. - Top - End - #489
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Hmm, that still gets me +13. I guess thats not too terrible, allows me to solve problems of stuck doors without taking 5 minutes while still getting the barbarian's character to give me nasty looks for overshadowing him in that arena. Sounds like a win-win all around to me!

  10. - Top - End - #490
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I wish I had more to update, but life has sprung up and my game has been cancelled the last few weeks so no news there. Any new things you have tried to break and succeeded on estradus?

  11. - Top - End - #491
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I wish I had more to update, but life has sprung up and my game has been cancelled the last few weeks so no news there. Any new things you have tried to break and succeeded on estradus?
    I have found something, though I'm not sure if its really a break as much as an interesting occurrence; the class tends to seem a bit more powerful when used in the hands of abnormal races or shifted into unusual forms. Example: as mentioned I'm playing some kinda weird variant vampire thing that has +0 la and isn't immune to mind effecting etc whatever. Its still undead though, and I somehow wound up with the swarmshifter template (pile of sand form, obviously.) So now I can flit around as a pile of sand, swinging greatswords at people despite lack of hands. Related thoughts: varied animal forms and maybe incorporeal races. Of course, all of these seem like "if your dm lets you play something like this, that's their problem" so might not need to have anything done about it (what even would be done?)

    Also, I think the "breaking down doors and strength checks to move objects and whatever" from the combat manuevers segment should be separated from bull rush and made a lower level. Being able to shove objects with force seems like a vital part of being able to use this class, replacing the need for a strength character with being a cha character but still lifting all the heavy things and shoving aside all the boulders and doors and etc. They can't really do a fairly substantial portion of their job until fourth level, which prevents you from using it when you don't have much in the way of alternative moving object systems. I'm sure theres a good reason for not doing such, but I'm just tossing my idea out there.

  12. - Top - End - #492
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Hmm. As to that first point, that doesn't really seem to be an issue with the class so much as interesting interactions with other things.

    As to the second, I'm not really partial to either way. That ability was built from a fledgling idea early on and it just sort of stayed around like that because no one saw an issue. Looking up the rules for breaking doors and such, that is apparently just a str check against a set DC. Therefore, you can do it from level 1...and it needs to be removed from Far Trick lol.

    As for moving Bullrush, I sort of disagree. As of level 1, you can lift and carry heavy stuff; you can even launch small things with great force. But to be able to apply sustained pressure that is enough to shove someone back with just your mind from range seems like it would be something you would need to develop. Beyond that, they aren't supposed to be better than a melee person at melee right out of the gate. They need to come into their power. So, can you give any reasons why you feel the TK needs to be able to use TK bullrush right away (and make your party fighter cry while he still has a purpose)?

  13. - Top - End - #493
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Hmm. As to that first point, that doesn't really seem to be an issue with the class so much as interesting interactions with other things.

    As to the second, I'm not really partial to either way. That ability was built from a fledgling idea early on and it just sort of stayed around like that because no one saw an issue. Looking up the rules for breaking doors and such, that is apparently just a str check against a set DC. Therefore, you can do it from level 1...and it needs to be removed from Far Trick lol.

    As for moving Bullrush, I sort of disagree. As of level 1, you can lift and carry heavy stuff; you can even launch small things with great force. But to be able to apply sustained pressure that is enough to shove someone back with just your mind from range seems like it would be something you would need to develop. Beyond that, they aren't supposed to be better than a melee person at melee right out of the gate. They need to come into their power. So, can you give any reasons why you feel the TK needs to be able to use TK bullrush right away (and make your party fighter cry while he still has a purpose)?
    Ah no you misunderstood me. Bull rush can stay where it is, I was saying that the strength checks should be seperated from it, as they're currently under the same header. I was thinking either extend far trick another 2 levels down with "strength check objects" being the level 2 far trick and bull rush being level four, other things progressing same old same old; or using what you said and just making it part of the hands ability. (such is how I've been using. I was telling nasty fibs when I said I was past level four before in previous complaints.)

  14. - Top - End - #494
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Actually, as the way it stands, the Hands ability says "If they require a physical ability score (such as opposed strength checks for trip attempts), use the Charisma modifier instead." Which lends itself to implying that they can be used for str checks. Now though, I realize it isn't stated anywhere that you can just casually use the Hands like an actual hand. So I am going to add that in so it is clear they can be used like normal hands or for abilities. That would fix it right?

    EDIT: And here is the updated text. As I was writing it, it actually came to mind that it is not easy to specify the simplistic nature that these are just hands that can do stuff. Let me know if this is too wordy, or if it gets the point across nicely.

    These Hands can be used for abilities in this class, or they can be used as though they were just normal hands. In either case, they are still subject to the limits given in this class.
    Last edited by DerTollUdo; 2013-06-13 at 11:49 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #495
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    A thought has occurred to me. Would it be feasible to use Force Fling to launch people as projectiles?

  16. - Top - End - #496
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    A thought has occurred to me. Would it be feasible to use Force Fling to launch people as projectiles?
    On one hand, I'm still iffy about being able to move people via telekinetic hands, it seems like too powerful an ability to get right away at level 1 along with everything else. On the other hand, I've been playing far too much phantom brave recently to accept not using my enemies to beat up my other enemies.

    Using prexisting sources as a guideline, I'd say make it a feat.

  17. - Top - End - #497
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    That seems totally appropriate actually. Hmm now to find out wording...Estradus, Veklim, Bob any ideas?

  18. - Top - End - #498
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    FLING FOE
    Requirements: Force Fling class feature, Concentration 8 ranks, Charisma 16+
    Benefit: As a standard action you may use your Force Fling ability on an opponent. To do so you make a ranged attack for Force Fling as normal, but it is opposed by the target's Fortitude save (instead of their AC). You must have enough Hands invested to lift the target as if they were an object (once you make the attack you intuitively know how many you need, or whether you simply don't have enough). A thrown target is launched up to 10ft / TK level in a straight line away from you where they land prone and receive 1D6 / 10ft (or part thereof) they have been thrown. If an object obstructs the path of your target, both the target and the object take damage as if the target had travelled the full distance and the target lands prone in that square (smaller objects may be knocked aside or smashed, it is up to a DM to decide what constitutes enough obstruction). If a creature is in the way, they must succeed a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 TK level + Cha mod) to avoid the flung target or take damage with the target and fall prone with them in the same square.


    GUIDED FLING
    Requirements: Fling Foe, Concentration 12 ranks, Charisma 18+
    Benefit: When you use your Fling Foe ability, you may throw them in any direction (including straight up) and all damage dice dealt by the ability increase from D6 to D8. Furthermore, if you deliberately collide 2 or more opponents who are all under the effects of Force Fling, all effected targets must make a Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round once they fall prone.


    Something a bit like that?
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

    My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
    Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
    World Warper
    Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC

  19. - Top - End - #499
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    That looks good. But reading through it makes it feel a bit cluttered for damage calculations and the reflex save part seems low. Let's try this:

    Spoiler
    Show
    FLING FOE
    Requirements: Force Fling class feature, Concentration 8 ranks, Charisma 16+
    Benefit: At will as a standard action you may use your Force Fling ability on an opponent within the range of your Hands. To do so you make a ranged attack for Force Fling as normal, but it is opposed by the target's Fortitude save instead of their AC. Upon using this action (after you spend the action) you intuitively know how many Hands you need, or whether you simply don't have enough, and you must have enough Hands to lift the target as if they were an object.

    A thrown target is launched up to 10ft / TK level in a straight line away from you where they land prone and receive 1D6 / 10ft they traveled. If an object obstructs the path of your target, both the target and the object take damage as if the target had traveled the full distance and the target lands prone in that square (smaller objects may be knocked aside or smashed, it is up to a DM to decide what constitutes enough obstruction).

    If a creature is in the way, they must succeed a Reflex save (DC equal to the attack roll made) to avoid the flung target or take damage with the target and fall prone with them in the same square. Evasion and similar abilities do not apply.


    GUIDED FLING
    Requirements: Fling Foe, Concentration 12 ranks, Charisma 18+
    Benefit: When you use your Fling Foe ability, you may throw them in any direction (including straight up) and all damage dice dealt by the ability increase from D6 to D8. Furthermore, if you deliberately collide 2 or more opponents who are all under the effects of Force Fling, all effected targets must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to the attack roll made) or be stunned for 1 round one after the collision.


    And for clarity, throwing them up would double the damage dealt assuming the target can't fly, correct? If so that should be stated...

  20. - Top - End - #500
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    In a simplistic model, throwing something from the floor will result in the same force used to throw it up being the force of it's impact with the ground after falling again.

    When something is thrown up, it ceases to move at the top of it's 'flight', decelerating according to gravity, then starts moving back down, accelerating according to the same gravitational pull, ergo the damage remains the same.

    If you wanna get technical, different angles of elevation and vector thrust could affect damage on a curve, but ballistics and D20 DO NOT mix well, I warn you now... Long and short of it is, it's fine, don't change that, edits look good!
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

    My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
    Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
    World Warper
    Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC

  21. - Top - End - #501
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Lol I actually knew all that :P

    Just that the wording implies that damage is done via distance traveled, hence up+down would yield 2x the distance and 2x the dmg. Also propelling them off a cliff would similarly yield greater damage due to the wording. If that is something we seek to avoid, we could add in "up to d6/lvl" somewhere.

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