Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

[DerTollUdo]

I look forward to hearing your results. My game was unfortunately cancelled yesterday so I have no new playtesting till next sunday.

[Re'ozul]

level 10 thoughts:

Vanilla Telekineticist needs as many hands as he can get, so assuming stat increases are put in constitution:
Still strongheart halfling.

Relevant base stats: dex 16, con 16, cha 16
Probable items: +2 dex, +4 con, +4 cha
Results: normal attack modifier +15, 8 hands, 5 AoOs/rd, base save DC 20

Enemies: 6 brutes of maybe 80-100hp, good fort, bad will

Battle becomes easier the lower hp and the larger enemies (bottleneck problem)

Easiest Strategy in my mind:

First Round: Standard to put up the good old spiked chains, move to create 2 shields that face the enemy at your front (should look like this)
C=Chains
_= shields
T=Telekineticist

lots of enemies here


X__XXX__
XXXCXC
XXXXT
XXXCXC

Enemies have to walk around shields to get to you making it less likely they can strike you this first round.
Chains should be okay for tripping. If you want to reduce potential damage use, fullround action in this first round to do all that and throw either two far tricks (trip probably) or better two force based blasts. Its a fort-save, but with a DC 20 you can still get lucky reasonably often.
Second round just keep supporting the chains, reposition shields based on most pressing enemiy and keep blasting with your standard.

Alternatively you could just take flight, but that has the possibility of the enemies going after your comrades in the event they can't fly.

[Veklim]

Standard TK tests

OK, two level 10 builds, one with LM,MH! and con+4/wis+3, and one without LM,MH! and con+3/wis+4. The one with the feat had no trouble in normal CR encounters, with and without a party (1 fighter, 1 rogue, 1 sorceror for both). Far Trick and Force Blast were used to pick out individual threats quite effectively, TK fighting helped keep the fighter and rogue (especially the rogue) effective, and the sorceror could buff and pick off targets much easier not having to worry about enemy movements so much (he hid behind the TK and avoided most damage as a result). The one without the feat had slightly more trouble being individually effective AND threatening with TK fighting, but found a more direct (Force Blast mostly) approach made him an effective heavy hitter, either hiding behind a shield or the fighter (for single and group combat respectively).

The number of hands you have is a huge part of the class (and rightly so) but it's not actually the be-all-end-all. The TK with less hands had to use (perversely) slightly more aggressive strategies, whereas the one with more hands could sit back a bit and play the defensive game far more effectively. They both held up nicely though, and made me think outside the box with a couple of encounters, just to try and test them to breaking point. The thing they dislike the most is heavy, high HP enemies, because their caster-like approach to combat and lack of SoD/SoS abilities forces them to win the old fashioned way. I found them solid Tier 3s for combat options, but outside of combat may be a different matter, we shall have to wait and see.

Unarmed TK tests

Two level 10 builds, one with TK Focus and Spec in Force Blast & Con+3/Wis+4, on with TK Focus and Spec in Far Trick & Con+4/Wis+3, both with LM,MH! The Force Blaster played most combat as a case of managing abilities and movement to stay healthy, but the Far Tricker was amazing. He was locking down enemies with weaponised hands, then bullrushing and/or disarming them and finishing them off, usually 2 at a time, with a spare hand in lieu for emergency shielding. An incredibly nice, but mostly overlooked aspect of Unarmed is the way you can have weapons appear almost instantly, wherever you want them, within TK range. On 3 occasions, a group of archers/ranged enemies were set upon from behind in the same round they opened fire, when the TK noticed their volley and manifested weaponised hands right behind them.

The Unarmed TK notices a loss of hands slightly more than the standard model. Shields were used much more with these guys, partly due to the previous set of tests and the resultant playtester learning curve, but partly because when you can have a weapon wherever you need it as a move action, you can focus more on defensive movements and strategic Far Trick usage (which one of them excelled with, btw).

Further Analysis

Now my 2 willing playtesters have the idea of the TK, I'm taking them back to level 5 for some early game testing. Then we'll go for 15th level testing to see how the progressions hold up. The feats make Force Blast and Far Trick potent utility weapons, no data for Mental Strength yet, still pending next session. Pure and Savant pending tests, Pure soon, Savant after. Will test effectiveness of Enhanced Discipline but must update that first for The Augur and The Maker, since they didn't exist (in text at least) when I wrote the feat...

[bobthe6th]

wow, numbers pulled out of the air seem to be working. any major problems balance wise?

[Veklim]

wow, numbers pulled out of the air seem to be working. any major problems balance wise?

These guys are powerful on the battlefield, they have options galore in comparison to many classes, but nothing seems game-breaking to me yet.

[DerTollUdo]

I really like the tests you have been doing. Ill see if it gets broken at the high end of power when I can lol.

[Re'ozul]

Okay, I have to ask something that still confuses me about force blast.

Lets say I want to use the actual force based version.
My normal attack bonus is +10
If I now throw 3 of them (against one target or several) and roll a 15:

Is the total attack roll:
First beam 25, second 23, third 21

or

all beams: 21

EDIT: Also, the capstone says "doubles hands ... from here on". Does this mean you only get double the amount when going int o epic or is it actually retroactive (what i thought).

[Turalisj]

Alright, can someone help me build a Telekinetic at level 22 for pathfinder?

[Veklim]

@ Turalisj, yes, all I need is a complete rundown of Pathfinder first...I don't know it, sorry!

@ Re'ozul, firstly you only make 1 attack roll and apply it to all targets, hence they'd all be at 21, because there's only 1 roll to modify!
Secondly, your hands increase retroactively, from class levels and feats, but you don't get doubled con modifier as well.

@ DerTollUdo, could you add the following to Enhanced Discipline:

The Augur: Add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to your initiative checks
The Maker: Add your Constitution modifier to the hardness of any item you make.

[Turalisj]

Well, Pathfinder is pretty easy. And the epic level is a lot simpler than 3.5's wacky system. There are some skills merged, you get bonuses for sticking with a class, and you get feats at every odd level rather than every 3rd.

Wouldn't happen to have AIM, would you?

[DerTollUdo]

Alright, added your new lines to the feat, and clarified the capstone.

Anyone got any thoughts about Prcs? Or how we will handle epic?

[bobthe6th]

got a puppet master prc idea I've been holding onto until edits level out(take TK fighting, and make minions...)
a pure telikenteisist Prc might also do well

[DerTollUdo]

I feel like as things are, we have reached a solid level of balance. We probably won't be doing anymore big edits to the class itself. Unless someone else finds a gaping hole of brokeness lol. So go ahead and put up the idea for your Prc. The only edits we would probably be making would be to the ACFs, also we need more feats.

The option to have the class be option based is still something I would want to explore, but I feel like we don't have enough options to make it happen. We need more class ideas. Anyone got any?

[DerTollUdo]

So, I was rereading the class, and found a problem. In the capstone it mentions removing the TK Fighting penalties but we already removed those in a revamp. Should we make it add some kind of bonus instead?

Also made some clarifications to Force Blast and Far Trick. Check them over would you?

[Veklim]

How about this:
Any weapon you weild with TK Fighting is considered one size category larger than it actually is for purposes of damage and any special attacks you make (like disarming or tripping foes).

You missed this from Far Trick:
This requires a standard action and 1 Hand to use (in the case of multiple targets, you require 1 Hand/target, with a -2 penalty to all rolls for each target after the first).

Put it at the end of the first paragraph.

Everything else looks good to me dude. More playtesting results after Sunday sometime btw. Have a 3rd guin......willing participant.

[DerTollUdo]

Ill add those in when I get back to a comp, it's hard to edit that huge post on my phone lol.
On a note about the -2 for multiple targets. Does it mean that if you focus fire on one target you get no penalty?

Oh! Also have a feat idea or class option. Excuse the lack of formatting since I'm on my phone.

Anchoring Shield
Prerequisites:?
Benefit: When a target is completely surrounded by Focused Shield, either multiple or one shaped to fit, they are considered dimensionally anchored.

Thoughts?

[Veklim]

Ill add those in when I get back to a comp, it's hard to edit that huge post on my phone lol.

Know the feeling, posted the Savant ACFs from my phone. It took HOURS!

On a note about the -2 for multiple targets. Does it mean that if you focus fire on one target you get no penalty?

Yes, yes it does.

Oh! Also have a feat idea or class option. Excuse the lack of formatting since I'm on my phone.

Anchoring Shield
Prerequisites:?
Benefit: When a target is completely surrounded by Focused Shield, either multiple or one shaped to fit, they are considered dimensionally anchored.

Thoughts?

Nice. Even better for a Maker....oooh, thoughts emerging.....will post later when they become coherant.

[Re'ozul]

Wait,, what is this about focus fire?

[Veklim]

Wait, what is this about focus fire?

All the abilities which take -2 per additional target do only that. The more targets you add, the more penalties you get, the more abilities you cram into a round, the more penalties you get, ergo; all hands, one shot, no penalties. If you take all your hands and throw them at one ability and one target only, you can properly decimate them, but you can then do little-to-nothing else in the round. It's all about the options!

[Re'ozul]

Honestly, I don't consider that to be a good idea, especially with my one remaining grouse of force blast.

Consider the good old bog standrad character that has probably 8 hands by level 10.
A force based blast with all hands against a big bruiser enemy (dragon, huge construct etc) would, if i understand this correctly, mean:
You get 8 attacks at full BAB (all using the same attack roll) against the big bruiser doing a total of 80d4 force damage and prompting 8 Fort saves against nauseate. Thats an average of 200damage.

I was under the impression that using multiple blasts is the factor that creates the -2 (basically a cumulative -2 to the attack roll for each blast more than one) so that it would be slightly balanced. With focus fire, force blast just isn't balanced.

[Veklim]

yeesh, you're right dude.

OK, it should be reading -2 per additional attack then.

[DerTollUdo]

Ok, I added that line to Far Trick. Also changed the wording a little bit (called ability trick instead so it can be more easily differentiated), changed all (hopefully, check for me eh?) -2 for multiple uses parts to be worded so they effect all after the first so no super nuking single targets, removed Disable Device from skills because it really has no reason to be there..., and made a slightly bigger change:

The ability of Hands to use multiple abilities as a full round action was a little broken. We were basically getting free actions at a -2 bonus. That is a problem. But since we want the abilities to be used in tandem, I made it so that when using a standard action ability you may opt to make it a FRA if you do, you may use two abilities in conjunction with it as long as they have an action cost of a move action but you take a -10 to all rolls and saves for the rest of the round.

With that I changed the action cost of Mental Strength to move since it doesn't really seem to warrant a standard, and made Singularity a move action since Focused Shield already is...need to remove it from the TK Focus list if this sticks...

The -10 might be too high, but it does basically give you a free extra move action which is normally impossible...maybe -5?

Also, had a couple more ideas. Add another ability at about lvl 13. It creates an bubble that creates the penalties of fighting underwater. Then at a higher lvl, TBD still, it adds the additional function of being able effectively dimension lock people; though not as dimension lock so no random immunities to it. Call it Lockdown.
And somewhere about 16 create an ability the boosts the other ones. Like making shields no longer phase out if they successfully get through it, and other stuff TBD.
Also idea for epic: Make Lockdown also count as an antimagic field. What do you care, your stuff is all EX lol.

[Re'ozul]

Nooooo, don't take away disable device, please. It makes the character a really good trap disabler (well non-magic variants).

On the reworking of Multi-Ability:

There really aren't many abilities that are move actions iirc. Only Shields and (with your change) mental strenght. I guess the "move weapons" (or create weapons in the unarmed's case) works as well.
Generally I didn't really see a problem with the ability as it was. Yes it was only a -2 to everything per extra ability, but then again, how often will you actually need to use it once you have shields (move) and far-trick/force-blast (standard). It was something that mostly comes up in the beginning of fights to establish a baseline for your actions in the combat.
The -10 is way too high (consider that for shields this would apply to both the bullrush check and the damage, a -10 on a save basically makes it a joke etc).

Even at a -5 it becomes a very prohibitive ability only really useful in dire situations where you have to do emergency battlefield control. And in those cases its marred by the fact that the penalty will greatly decrease your abilities' rate of success.

I really wouldn't push more abilities into the class.
Singularity already was pretty unneeded where it comes to power.
The big ones are Force-Blast, Far-trick and focused shield with mental strenght and telekinetic fighting filling the holes. Flight and Blindsight are powerful passives. Everything beyond that basically becomes bells and whistles, slowly overloading a nicely streamlined class with too much "would be cool if" things.

Though honestly, I actually like this new idea a lot better than singularity as its more along the lines of battlefield control and less dps-machine.

[DerTollUdo]

I felt the reason it should be changed is because otherwise, as a FRA you do this, Force Blast, Far Trick, Tk Fighting, Shields, and Blindsight while moving 60 ft away with a -10 to your rolls for the round. For basically rendering everyone else useless or on mop up duty, this is by far your best choice. A -5 isn't that prohibitive since as it used to be you could use 4 abilities at once with only a -6. And saying it only comes up at the start of combat is a problem. Typically, combat starts, and ends in round 1 or maybe early 2 once you hit high levels and the wizard kills a rainforest for each of his spellbooks...

Disable Device can't really do anything without trapfinding...

Without Singularity, you basically got nothing new after 15 until you hit 20. 5 dead levels that late suck. And since 9 was the first and last real Battlefield control ability you got, I thought they would like to have the option of whether they want to put someone in a box or control their movements on the field more than just tripping/grappling/disarming.

As to your 'dps machine' statement, please elaborate. Is it too powerful? Does it out shine any other class at that level? Can it be made to kill someone in 1 round?

If we go to the table and remove the parts that are just saying an ability improved we have 6, 8, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18 where you are not gaining a new class ability. That's 2/5 of the class levels where something is just improved (often it's pretty cool like TK Fighting or Far Trick, but not always) and nothing new is gained. Yes it is streamilined, yes I like the class as is, but I would like to see more options the class can do.

Because, as is, pretty much every non ACF Telekineticist is going to play the exact same. Hold weapons, have shields, blast foes/hit foes. Maybe occasional Far Tricks. By adding something more that they can do, each TK can have their own favorite fighting style that is acctually unique.

This is all personal opinion though, and I don't want you to feel like I am attacking you :)

[Re'ozul]

Okay, about your example:

1) I don't think you could move, due to the fullround-action = no movement except 5ft step rule. I guess you could argue that the flight is an ability, but here I am of the opinion that general trumps specific.

2) All rolls at a -10. Lets assume you are lvl 20 with a 30cha. A -10 would put you at a base attack bonus of +20 for force blast. Still pretty good, though it gets lower the more you blast. As I said, I still consider force blast a bit strong so that one has the least problems in this scenario. Though the Fort-save for the force version suffers and gets reduced to a DC20.
Far trick now takes a -10 on all checks. Necessary touch attacks probably suffer very little, though the actual checks (since size modifiers don't play a role) do quite a bit. You are basically rolling bare d20s vs enemies unless you have feats invested.
TK-Fighting is now essentially useless except for providing flanking.
The shields suffer most probably. Bullrush goes from +22 to +12 and damage (unless more hands invested) becomes negligible.

Your version means that you can never get Blindsight and do something else in that round. And for most of the Telekineticist's career, there really aren't any necessary move-eqivalents aside from the shields.

Look what he can do with only move and standard. The forceblast/far hand + shield combo is generally enough anyway. Blast him, the surround him with (damage enhanced) shields. Repeat.
Unless you are fighting really smart enemies you'll rarely need something more.

I don't really consider levels where old abilities get upgrades as dead levels.

I meant the 'dps-machine' (though I guess dots would have been better) due to the fact that most of the class is just battlefield control with minor damage (except force blast). Singularity has the 'hit each other' damage and the crushing damage. While it makes sense, it feels a bit too damage focused. Part of it comes from the 'more enemies=higher DC' part to get out of the singularity. If you ever get into a mook battle (or a 'bunch of big bruisers' battle) you are basically the force that completely razes the battlefield. It only needs a moderate amount of affected enemies and their chance to get out basically shrinks to a nat20. So your party can just wait around while enemy gets crushed down to nothing.

On account of non-ACF telekineticists playing the same, well yeah.
A lot of Crusaders or Warblades or Dread Necros I have seen also play the same, as the class lends itself to that playstyle. Shield/Blast/Trick are the big things for it due to the fact that they are so utterly awesome. You can add more options, but unless you make them equally easy to use and awesome in ability, few players will actually use them.
In my mind Force blast is currently straight up superior to far-trick though due to the damage vs inconvenience argument.
Having a class be mostly played in a certain way isn't bad unless its a way that relies on breaking elements of that class.

No worries about me taking it as an attack. I like discussing things.

[Veklim]

The original wording for the FRA multi-ability clause was pretty tight Der, it nerfs ALL the rolls enough that it becomes much like the 'To flurry, or not to flurry' debate all over again. There will be times when being able to combine 2 or 3 abilities in a single round will be effective, but not really that many. Besides the fact that it was available for my first set of playtesting, it was only done once by one test player in the entire evening. It's there as an option, but it screws your DCs, attack rolls, damage and opposed checks so much that you only get benefit a small proportion of the time.

Disable Device can't really do anything without trapfinding...

But we could give them TK trapfinding (requires one Hand and a search check per 5' square)... Besides, it's also useful in many of my settings for disabling/repairing machinery and devices. Added to knowledge (engineering) it should be applicable to loads of stuff imo. It also gives you something mechanic-specific to do with your manual deterity from Mental Strength.

There really aren't many abilities that are move actions iirc.

You're half right at least, but with the feat tree (Focus, etc) you can turn many of your abilities into move actions a few times per day (and eventually become permanently a move action). This isn't a problem though, the more stuff you try and do, even as a move action, the harder it gets to succeed with anything. It's actually a far better system for dealing with action economy than many recent ideas I've seen, and it's certainly nowhere near as breakable as a duskblade, so we can't have been that far off in the first place. Remember, potential shenanigans are far harder to achieve with a TK, because they don't have a lot in common with 98% of external source material! (mechanically at least).

Because, as is, pretty much every non ACF Telekineticist is going to play the exact same.

This isn't a huge problem. Especially since we have presented a multitude of ACFs which offer options on a flavour-specific TK, and the feats (more on the way btw) allow you to focus in on one or two aspects of the class allowing for effective use of different encounter tactics. Then there's the fact that multiclassing is still an option too, and I can see there being a few interesting combinations and possibilities out there for such.

Shield/Blast/Trick are the big things for it due to the fact that they are so utterly awesome. You can add more options, but unless you make them equally easy to use and awesome in ability, few players will actually use them.

These 3 abilities along with Mental Strength make for a wonderful set of combat/utility options with a little imagination, and as they stand, I'd argue a TK has more VALID combat options than a great many classes do.

Playtesting yesterday didn't go very far at all (mostly discussion rather than actual playtesting) but it did highlight 2 feats which may be rather benficial for a TK; Speed of Thought and Force of Personality.

In conclusion, I'd say the old wording in Hands for multiple actions should be re-instated, it covers the seemingly OP nature of the capability by severely hampering all connected rolls. I'd also say there's enough in the class at the moment to leave it be. The work pending is to take all the ACFs and the base class itself and look at whether we can present a balanced option-laden class using all the abilities we currently have, but the class already presented should be kept seperate from that (for reference and for use, since it's pretty much ready for play I think). Perhaps a new thread would be appropriate for the option mashup, with reference to this thread?

[DerTollUdo]

Seems everyone disagrees with me. Hmmm let's see if I can muster up a compelling argument :P
The -10 was too high, but I feel it should be a set ability that can only add one or two more abilities at a time. For a better example: with the orignial writting at level 11 you could have 10 hands without much optimization. Then take a FRA and Blast with 3 Hands Put up 3 Hands of shields and either make 4 weapon attacks or 4 Far Tricks. Only suffering a -4 to rolls for the round. That is practically nothing at that level. The only move action there was shields. So you gained a free standard action. The only way to normally do that is belt of battle I think.

As for disable device, the class isnt really supposed to be a rogue. At least it doesn't feel that way to me...

As to the all playong basically the same, some of the most fun classes are the ones that can be played multiple ways. Mostly because they give replayability for being different. Dont get me wrong, I love this class and will play it a bunch. But eventually I would want something different and since the class isn't that flexible I will have to change.

On the dead level comment I made most of the levels feel fun in the beginning because thats where all the abilities are. Level 13 for example you are just getting better at flying. At this point its really just a meh ability to get that late. It fills space, but don't get me wrong I'm glad it's there. Just wish it was sonething a little better for so late in the level. The proposed ability I suggested, Lockdown, would probably be here and would feel like a cool a ability to play with for a few levels until you get greater TK fighting. Then it would upgrade at either 16 or 17 to be a dimesion locking zone also. Which is great to stop the bad guys getting away. For example, oh no the bad guy is getting away! Throw down a supercharged bullrush wall around him...and he telports away. Well that sucked...you get my point I hope.

The class as is would be ready to play I think, with one rendition of the combining abilities or the other, I was just zaying tbat Lockdown would be something beneficial to the class since there isnt much to look forward to in the higher levels. Thoughts? Should it be part of the class or become an ACF? I also don't really feel we have enough options to make the option class. Maybe if you make a sample table and option list I would see it better...

[Re'ozul]

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.
Why would he use the FRA in that situation?
Just using a move and a standard he can do most of what he wanted without the penalty. The penalty again, reduces the effectiveness of his attack somewhat. Taking a -4 on trip/disarm attacks can be pretty bad. A -4 on the nauseate DC of force blast makes it a lot easier to resist. A -4 on a shield's bullrush is also pretty hefty.
Yes it can effectively give you additional standard actions, but at a price. Up until lvl 15 your blindsight also takes a fullround action to activate, so that would be an additional -2. While having a lot of hands might make this option more interesting, I think most would just use something as a move and something as a standard than the FRA version. Force blast means you can blast lots (at higher levels the force version is rather true to aim even with penalties) and far trick allows you to just throw several things against an enemy in the same round (bullrush, followed by disarm, followed by trip).

Trapfinding might actually be a good addition to the class. Right now the out of combat uses are limited to pack-mule and party-face.

Yes, lockdown would be beneficial to the class, no doubt.

[Veklim]

Then take a FRA and Blast with 3 Hands Put up 3 Hands of shields and either make 4 weapon attacks or 4 Far Tricks. Only suffering a -4 to rolls for the round.

You've missed the fact that 4 far tricks would give you a -6 to the rolls for that, and 3 blasts would have a -4 each as well, making it a total of -8 for the blasts, and -10 for the tricks. If we use the original wording for the FRA option, then the cumulative -2 per extra action keeps almost directly in line with the -2 per extra attack penalty. This effectively means you suffer similar overall penalties whether you're making 6 far trick attempts and a shield as a standard action + move action, or you're making 3 far tricks, 3 force blasts and a shield as a full round action. Although the full round action gets slightly smaller penalties to far trick/force blast uses (-8 instead of -10), you have to apply a -4 penalty to all your shield rolls as well. Using the same example but without shield uses means that the standard action gives -10 for 6 attacks, as opposed to the full round action giving -8 for 6 attacks, meaning you take longer for less penalty if you want the same number of attacks over multiple abilities. This is quintessentially balanced in both concept and ruling.

What you propose with the 'one size fits all' approach to the penalty will simply mess up the penalty system we have already put in place to control action economy, making the penalty either too little or too much, very rarely a reasonable amount.

I understand you're trying to streamline this a bit, but honestly I don't see how a class which bends the action economy anyhow can be given non-scaling penalties to do so.

Trapfinding might actually be a good addition to the class. Right now the out of combat uses are limited to pack-mule and party-face.

I think so too, they have Hands which give them the capability to manipulate things at a distance and a bit later gain 360 super-sense, trapfinding is honestly more of a glaring oversight than 'too much'. They probably should have gotten it the moment we agreed on Mind's Eye!

Yes, lockdown would be beneficial to the class, no doubt.

Where is this written down? I remember you mentioning something using the dome shields which I gave The Maker, but the standard class doesn't get that ability so we'd have to look into how to get around that, if that's indeed the case. Either way, it would help and make a worthy addition to the class, as long as we can find the right place to put it!

[DerTollUdo]

I think I have found the disagreement lol. I don't look at things on the small side, whereas you guys do. It helps to make a class when you have people with both points of view, so I am glad we are all helping Bob :) I see things on the scale of "how can I make this the most powerful?" And using that ability to combine them for nigh infinite actions is pretty high up there. Look at this from an optimization standpoint:

Be an Petal. Off the bat they get +8 to cha and +4 con and a bunch of other stuff for 2 LA. Since those are the most important stats to the class, lets call them 18s. They become 26 and 22. That's +8 and +6. So at first level (3rd total) they have 8 Hands. Around level 11 it is not unreasonable to think that they probably got +6 items as fast as possible. So +11 and +9. Now they have 15 Hands and a +22 to hit (BAB + Cha). While yes it is nice to take just the one move and the standard, if you need a quick boost in field control (like Blasting/disarming/tripping/grappling some unruly foe) take the -4 so you don't lose the strategic wall placements and attacking with a bunch of weapons. With this many Hands, let's say 3 weapons with 3 Hands in dmg, and 5 Hands in walls and 4 Hands in Blast/Tricks.

Using the Full attack action of TK Fighting you are only gonna suffer -4 to hit/dmg so 18/13/8 with dmg of 1Dx+12 each hit, then you get a wall (which by now your opponents should be trying to avoid, so you can just start dropping it on them to push them around the field because it has a bullrush check of 29 with Hands buffing it and does 6d6+7 after penalty) and probably some Blasts for an +12 touch attack against up to four people dealing 11d4-4 each with saves of 22, or if you have stupidly heavy objects 22d6-4 each.

I would probably choose to do all of that more rounds than not. Maybe change the limit to make it a flat -4 or -6 but can just combine two abilities in the same action slot...that seems better actually. Thoughts?

And a note on the Maker dome thing: Shaping a wall can also put it in a dome. I don't know if your guy does it better since I am not looking at the number atm, but yeah.

Edit: Also, this was typed up before Veklims response...just saying.

With that being said. Maybe I am overreacting about the action economy? Idk. My friend brought it up to me and made a convincing argument. You guys tell me, since we have now made our arguments for both sides with numbers to back them up (see mine and Veklim's). Should we 1) go back to original? 2) Go with the one size fits all? or 3) that new one I mentioned above?

Well, alright. I guess we can steal the rogues schtick. What trapfinding ability should we use, where should we put it, and how do we flavor it for the class? I'll add back in Disable Device.

Lockdown is the title of the ability I designed but didn't add to the class because at first you guys were saying it would put too much into the class and would be unnecessary. But it looks like I should write it up? Here is the basic idea/writeup. You guys tell me if I should add it and how to balance it if it isn't:

Lockdown: At level 13 you learn how to use you Hands to slow the air itself. As a move action you create a sphere of dense air 5' in radius +5'/Hand anywhere within the range of your Hands.

Thrown weapons cannot be used within the sphere, even when launched from outside. Attacks with other ranged weapons or ranged spells take a -1 penalty/Hand on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the sphere they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range. Melee attacks only function if they are Slashing and suffer a -1 penalty/Hand on attack rolls.

Creatures within the area of the Lockdown must make a Fort save if they wish to move. If they pass they only move up to 1/4 of their speed. Failure by more than 5 means the attempt to move fails and the action is wasted. This DC may be increased separately from the radius and attack penalty at the rate of +2/Hand

At level 16 any area you Lockdown has become so dense that magic is incapable of leaving it. No spell cast within the sphere may have a target outside of the Lockdown. Teleportation and Teleportation like effects do not function within the Lockdown.


Then add this line to the capstone: Your Lockdown now negates all forms of magic within it.

How does that sound guys?