Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

[Re'ozul]

While I find it interesting that you mention petals (since I just made a petal pure telekineticist for a game) they are pretty much the most grievous of practical optimization choices due to their stat bonuses.

On your example:
Keep in mind the distance penalty on TK-Fighting.

How did you arrive at the +29 bullrush check? It should be +12 gargantuan, +11 charisma, +8 from hands (if you invest 4 hands into one shield, -4 from multi. So with 5 hands in shields the best you could get would be +27?

The thing you have to ask yourself is not "can I do it" but "does it make sense". Considering not all people will play petals, reduce all those numbers by 4 and the hands by 2. Still powerful yes, but not as overwhelming.

Combining action slots (multiple abilities in a standard or move) was what I originally brought up, it resulted in the current rule.

Personally I'd be for a rule that allows "during any move,standard,swift or fullround action the telekineticist takes, she may use more than one power that requires that amount of time or less (FRA>standard>move>swift) but takes a -4 to all rolls of all abilities ued in that action. This effect is cumulative and increases by another -4 for each ability beyond 2 so used during that action."

The problem here however would be that you eat less penalties for a 2move then 2standard action than a 3-ability-FRA.

[DerTollUdo]

Yeah, it's supposed to be +27, calculated it wrong :P Still nothing to sneeze at though.

The distance penalty I forgot to factor in...but it is hard to factor in without knowing combat setup.

I like that version of the rule, as long as you can only combine 2 abilities at once. Doesn't break the economy, doesn't make it useless.

[Re'ozul]

The problem with it is however, that it means you incur a heavier penalty for activating your blindsight until you can have it continuous at lvl 15.

[DerTollUdo]

Technically the blindsight gives it to you until the end of your next round. So, eh?

[Veklim]

OK, perhaps we can meet in the middle on the FRA stuff...here's a slight tweak/rewrite of the first draft ability (my personal vote):

Whenever you take an action with your Hands, you may opt to instead make it a full round action. If you do so, you may use any number of other Hand abilities at the same time which have an equal or shorter action time. This incurs a cumulative -2 penalty per ability to all rolls and save DCs involved in these actions (so if you were to combine Force Blast and Far Trick, you would get a -4 penalty to rolls and DCs for these abilities in addition to any penalties accrued for multiple attacks).

So they get a -2 for EVERY ability in the combo, not just additional ones. This should address the slight penalty discount which occurs in certain situations but leaves the penalty as a scaling one (therefore making success progressively harder for each extra ability you want to combine).

[Veklim]

With regards to the Petal business, we really shouldn't EVER try and balance a class based on the most optimised build we can conceive. If that were part of standard class building, every brew'd class in existence would top out at Tier 3, because they'd be nerfed to within an inch of their lives. I see the problem with a Petal TK, in the same way a dozen other races create OP builds for a dozen other classes. Thing is, any DM worth his salt will keep an eye on this sort of thing. Even the most horrifically optimised TK build possible wouldn't compare to a fullcaster base class, and a well built bardbarian still outstrips pretty much anything the TK could do (as far as my twisted mind can think up right now anyhow).

[DerTollUdo]

Balancing for the Petal isn't what I was saying lol. I was saying look at what this class would do if it were in tge high power side. A good brew can stand balanced in low power and high power. As to your rewrite, I havent had time to process it, so I will get back to that. Any thoughts on Lockdown?

[Re'ozul]

So both the area AND the imposed penalty get higher with more hands invested?
This means you don't really need the shields for self-protection anymore.
All you need to do is put the sphere around you with maybe 3-5 extra hands.

In the latter case that would be 30'. This would mean near no one can actually get to you in melee and all ranged attacks take at least a -36 on their rolls.

At level 16 you automatically shut down all casters you can get into your spheres.

Overall, the initial idea is good, but the penalties should increase independant from the size.
So the options for more hands would be:
- +5' radius
- increase penaltiy by 1 for melee and 1/5' for ranged
- +2 to DC

Otherwise its too easy to make insanely protective spheres with few hands.

Melee attacks should work if they are piercing (since only bludgeoning really makes an argumnent for great resistance).

The magic bit seems too strong.
Maybe something like this:
"The movement inhibiting properties of your field also greatly hinder spellcasters. An spell or spell-like-ability that requires somatic components suffers a spell-failure-chance increase of 20%. This effect may be increased by an additional 10% for each hand invested for specifically this purpose.
You may also suffuse the field with the fractal energies that give your shields their strenght. To do so you may invest a number of hands not greater than the number invested in the fireld's growth. For each invested hand only spells of a level greater than the number of invested hands may penetrate to the center (innermost 5' radius). The effect reduces by one spell level for each 5' distance from the center. This effect also affacts spells trying to leave from the corresponding layer.
Example: Jarod the lvl 18 Telekineticist has invested 3 hands into increasing his field's area and it is now a speher of 20' radius. He now invests 4 hands into fractal absorbance. This means only second level spells may penetrate the field at all. Only third level spells may penetrate deeper than 5' into, 4th level spells more than 10' and 5th level spells all the way to the center.
At the same time only 5th level spells may leave the center of the field.


Hmmmm, very wordy and a bit complicated. Still, in the example that alone would cost 8 hands (no increase in movement DC, or penalties and only the 20% spell failure increase). I don't think thats too much.

[Kobold-Bard]

Hey all, back with another irritating question that have probably already been answered.

Regarding this passage:

These movements are not limited in direction, but do have a limited duration. The Telekineticist can maintain pressure for up to wisdom modifier rounds, after that the object drops to the ground and the Telekineticist is fatigued for 1d4 rounds. You may not initiate this ability if you are fatigued. If you cease pressure, and do not use any ability requiring Telekinetic Hands for a full round, the duration you may keep this up is reset.

Does this apply to any use of Mental Strength? eg. can a Telekineticist only lift a plate for the same duration as they could a refrigerator (or something else heavy enough to be in one of the higher weight categories)? And would lifting a single plate for longer than Wis-Mod Rounds fatigue them in the same way the fridge would? Because that seems a bit odd.

Also: Would the creators consider Telekinetic Shield & Ghostly Hand to be acceptable replacements for Martial Skill & Critical Thinking as ACF pre-reqs, thus making it possible to take both the Pure TK & TK Savant ACFs? Or were they designed as they are so that you couldn't take them both together?

[DerTollUdo]

That question is answered in the ability itself :P
But for ease of reference 25lbs/level/Hand may be sustained withoit limit. otherwise all things fatigue you the same.
While you're here mr. bard, care to examine our changes and new abilities?

[Mathias1313]

Kudos to everyone involved in this class I love it.
I just had a few questions I was hoping someone could clarify for me, so here goes...

1- Telekinetic Fighting - A)Lesser allows a full attack, does this include feats like 2-weapon fighting or MultiWeapon fighting?
- B)Improved says you make an attack with each weapon that you are holding, so at lvl10 with a con mod of +4 I can make 7 Attacks per round?
- C)Greater... does this erally allow me to make a full-attack action with each weapon I am holding including feats like 2-weapon fighting and suck?
2- Singularity -If I understand correctly, you use 1 hand to start it, then 1 additional hand per target you want and then you may add additional hands to increase the damage done. Or do you instead add all the han ds together to figure out the damage?

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again for all the great work everyone.

[DerTollUdo]

Alright, I can clear this up pretty easy :) and thank you for helping by asking questions! If any of what I explain doesn't make sense or you feel isn't implied in the post, please let me know. Also the most current version of the class is in post 146 on page 5.

Lesser TK Fighting allows you to make a full attack as though you were fighting with the weapons in your actual hands. This means that you could, at level 6 with twf, as a Full Attack action use your hands to make 4 attacks. These attacks are split amongst up to 4 weapons you are wielding with you Hands at no additional penalty. They do, however, have the normal -2 for twf and also have penalties of -1/10' between you and your weapon.

Improved makes it so you may attack once with each weapon you are holding with your Hands as a standard action. All the attacks made with the ability use a single die roll using your highest attack bonus to confirm, but the roll is applied to each target separately. The penalty for this, however, is that you take a -2 to the die roll for each weapon you use for this past the first. For your example, you have 8 Hands not 7, and if you used them all for this instead of anything else you could do you would be able to hit 8 times if you can still hit with a -7 to your roll. At level 11, when you get it, you would have a to hit modifier of 4 + you cha mod and distance penalties still apply. Might need to change that to -2 for each weapon after the first...guys, thoughts?

Greater is the fighters dream. For each weapon being wielded by your Hands, you may make as many attacks with it as you could make with your BAB, so 4 since you get it at 16, plus any that the weapon gives (such as from speed). At this point you no longer take the distance penalties. I don't think twf would apply anymore...as it doesn't make sense to lol.

As for Singularity, the Hands for dmg are totally separate from the targeting Hands. Was this line not clear enough on that?

You may invest more hands in the singularity, to increase the damage they take by an addition 5d6/Hand

Also while you are here, we have a new ability up for discussion and would love to hear your thoughts, it is here if you are interested:

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Lockdown: At level 13 you learn how to use you Hands to slow the air itself. As a move action you create a sphere of dense air 5' in radius +5'/Hand anywhere within the range of your Hands.

Thrown weapons cannot be used within the sphere, even when launched from outside. Attacks with other ranged weapons or ranged spells take a -1 penalty/Hand on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the sphere they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range. Melee attacks only function if they are Slashing and suffer a -1 penalty/Hand on attack rolls.

Creatures within the area of the Lockdown must make a Fort save if they wish to move. If they pass they only move up to 1/4 of their speed. Failure by more than 5 means the attempt to move fails and the action is wasted. This DC may be increased separately from the radius and attack penalty at the rate of +2/Hand

At level 16 any area you Lockdown has become so dense that magic is incapable of leaving it. No spell cast within the sphere may have a target outside of the Lockdown. Teleportation and Teleportation like effects do not function within the Lockdown.


Then add this line to the capstone: Your Lockdown now negates all forms of magic within it.

[Kobold-Bard]

That question is answered in the ability itself :P
But for ease of reference 25lbs/level/Hand may be sustained withoit limit. otherwise all things fatigue you the same.
While you're here mr. bard, care to examine our changes and new abilities?

That's what I thought, but I wanted to clarify. Thanks.

How about my other query?

And I'll try after work.

[Mathias1313]

Cool, thanks for replying man, appreciate it.
Singularity was more for clarification than anything else, I was pretty sure that’s what you wanted but I wanted to make sure.

As for the Telekinetic Fighting, do you think that is a bit much? I am in no way criticizing, just adding a diff perspective. LVL 6 is cool, I like it a lot. Normal # of attacks but at ranged, thematic and cool. LVL11 however I get 8 attacks (I assume that the 1/3 hands means you get 1 at first lvl? Wasn’t sure) at -7. Compare that to the Feat Manyshot where you get a -8 to hit for 4 arrows. So that is double the # of attacks and at 1 lower penalty to hit. Now that is balanced by having a -1 to hit for every 10ft away from me it is. That still seems a bit too much to me, not sure tho. And now at lvl16 I get 10 hands min (based on previous calculations) that each get +16/+11/+6/+1 with a weapon that it is holding. I now ignore range penalties but I would have a -9 to hit, so +7/+2/-3/-8. By 16th lvl your CHA should nullify the penalty to hit and that’s not including any other bonuses you might add. Lol, I just keep thinking of a 16th lvl character with a Dragonfire inspiration Bard singing Cohort, 40 attacks with all that extra damage.

Couple quick questions as well (I know I am a pest but TK weapon wielding is like my obssession), Why do you go from lvl6 normal iterative attacks to lvl11 1 attack roll for all the hands, then lvl 16 back to iterative attacks for all the separate hands again. There has to be a better way of doing this. If you would not object I would like to try thinking of a solution for this and maybe submit it to you for approval. Now I am not trying to step on any ones toes so if that is not cool, let me know.. or if I am missing something about the above then also let me know.
Also can you use feats on all the weapons that you wield, for instance Weapon Spec to get +2 damage, what about Swashbuckler 3 to get INT to damage provided I am wielding appropriate weapons. Not sure if that is addressed yet.

On to the new Ability of Lockdown: I like the theme of the abilite but I have some concerns. Completely shutting down any thrown weapon makes me sad but hey windwall is like lvl3 so Not so bad. Clarification on the wording would be nice, if I have say 6 hands invested in the Lockdown, making it 35ft radius, does the shooter really take a -6 penalty to hit per 5ft the attack goes thru? That seems a bit excessive. As for melee attacks I don’t think it should just straight out stop bludge and pierce attacks. Maybe use the underwater rules or something to make it more difficult. Also I am hesitant to use the interactions with magic for the Lockdown and here is my reasoning… At lvl16 I can create the area around a target Spellcaster and they have become effectively neutralized. They can still cast spells but they cannot leave the area I created. At lvl 20 if I get initiative, the mage is dead beacause none of his spells now work and any buffs are auto dispelled, but heres the kicker…. There is no save for this. I think this particular ability needs some tweeking.
I hope any and all of this helps and plz remember I am helping to the best of my abilities as I truly like this class and the way it has turned out.

[Veklim]

Thankyou for the questions dude, every question we answer/address puts us one step closer to getting this class perfect

To address the key concerns you mentioned on TK Fighting, firstly I'd not worry about the idea of Swashbuckler or the like giving extra damage, since for every level you don't take in TK, you have less hands, less abilities and less effective radius. If cross-classing is your schtick, then carry on, but it would only serve to change the flavour/group dynamics of the character, numerical benefits would be slim-to-none (I think you'd actually lose more than you gained with such a combination).

The worries over Weapon Spec are similarly untroubling, since the TK doesn't count as a fighter, he can't get the feat. A lot of the more powerful weapon feats and abilities wouldn't work either way, since you can't charge with TKF. Besides all this, there are honestly better feats to take for a TK, which benefit other areas of the class or the class as a whole, most weapon feats will pale in comparison to someone with Look Ma, More Hands! and TK Supremacy (Force Blast).

As to the scaling quality of TKF, it's not as silly as it looks. You begin by being able to weild weapons, then you threaten with the weapon regardless of whereabouts it is, then you gain iterative attacks for a single weapon (all good so far yes?). Then you gain the ability to make a single attack with each weapon, bearing in mind this cannot be done if you want iterative attacks, this becomes a choice. You can hit multiple enemies in different places within your TK range, or you can focus them all on one target, but either way it's an upgrade on iteratives for a single weapon, considering how many weapons you can use at once (here, the penalties make sure that multiple weapons don't overshadow a single one with iteratives too much, you're still more likely to hit if you focus on one weapon only). Finally, you become capable of full iteratives with every weapon you weild, which seems a lot until you look at how much damage any one hit is going to do. Not a lot, honestly (especially in comparison to the damage a fairly commonplace melee build is capable of by this level)! Sure, you get literally dozens of attacks, but the penalties get larger the more weapons you weild, which means even if the first one or two hit, the attacks thereafter are more and more unlikely to do so with each additional weapon you weild.

Might need to change that to -2 for each weapon after the first...guys, thoughts?

Brings it in line with the rest of the class abilities and makes sense, aye.

I'm still a bit bothered by the wording on Lockdown, I'm gonna go over it again this evening and try to come up with a better wording for it. Might be easier to use the effects of Hold Monster and Dimensional Anchor as reference, instead of writing out the upgrade the way it is right now. Also it doesn't actually state what happens if you fail the save by less than 5, I know it's fairly obvious, but should still be stated for the sake of completeness and clarity imo.

[Veklim]

@Kobald-Bard, I don't think that's a good idea, Pure TK is a powerful ACF indeed, and the Savant ACFs I designed were created to exist in a vacuum, besides which, The Maker kinda needs shields to make use of it's unique ability..! Each of the ACFs represents a different 'specialisation' within the class, the idea of taking 2 or 3 of them would probably destabilise the tentative balance of the class sooner or later. I am considering making a couple which directly replace singular abilities though, these may allow for more of what you're looking for.

What do you think of the Savant ACFs btw? It's essentially your fault I made them after all!

[DerTollUdo]

Alright i'll add the change to improved tkf. Is there supposed to be a penalty of -1 per extra weapon being wielded for greater? I think it got lost in the shuffle...

As for lockdown: the idea started with wanting to create a bubble that forces those in it to be effected as though they were underwater as those penalties are rough. But since bfcontrol is this guy's schtick I felt that the penalties and such should be able to be amplified.

Then at 13 I was originally just going to have it block all forms of telepprting because those kind of abilities defeat the purpose of the ability lol. But while thinking on it, I thought it would be cool if it kind of became a magic isolator by keeping a barrier that basically blocked line of effect in or out.

As the capstone part, since everything of yours is now EX and your about to hit the land of epic spell casting and wtf dude? I felt an effect that negates magic would be cool and improve survivability.

Not to knock the wizard, but if he is stopped by an AMF like effect at 20 he shouldnt be a caster.

Now as to rewording, it probably needs some so go ahead and take a crack at it. However, I have one stipulation. You may not take the easy way out and reference a spell. None of the rest o f the class does and there is a reason I have made sure to word everything without them. People can become immune to spells, they cannot as easily become immune to random class abilities.

[Veklim]

Alright i'll add the change to improved tkf. Is there supposed to be a penalty of -1 per extra weapon being wielded for greater? I think it got lost in the shuffle...

Was gonna do that with one TKF feats I was half-planning, up to you, but I think GTKF does enough already, penalty reduction for all the other multi-use stuff only comes from feats, I think it should be the same for TKF, gimme a day or 2 to present the TKF feats I was considering and we can maybe discuss again then?

As for lockdown...

I've got a couple of ideas for re-packaging this actually, I'll jot some stuff down when I'm free and you can see what you think.

Now as to rewording, it probably needs some so go ahead and take a crack at it. However, I have one stipulation. You may not take the easy way out and reference a spell. None of the rest o f the class does and there is a reason I have made sure to word everything without them. People can become immune to spells, they cannot as easily become immune to random class abilities.

I've actually got an idea or two here as well, I'll see what I can come up with and post it seperately to the above.

[DerTollUdo]

I meant, is there supposed to be a penalty for multiple weapons in gtkf...

[DerTollUdo]

Alright got a rework of the ability:

Lockdown (SU):
At level 13 you learn how to use you Hands to slow the air itself. As a move action you create a sphere of dense air 5' in radius +5'/Hand anywhere within the range of your Hands.

Thrown weapons cannot be used within the sphere, even when launched from outside.

Attacks with other ranged weapons or ranged spells take a -1 penalty/Hand on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the sphere they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range. Slashing and Bludgeoning weapons, but not piercing weapons, may also function within the sphere at a -1 penalty/Hand but they deal half damage. The Hands used to increase the radius also apply to the attack penalties.

Creatures within the area of the Lockdown must make a Fort save if they wish to move. If they pass they may move up to 1/2 of their speed. If they fail by 4 or less, they may only move up to 1/4 of their move speed. Failure by more than 5 means the attempt to move fails and the action is wasted. This DC may be increased, separately from the radius and attack penalty, at the rate of +1/Hand

A Freedom of Movement effect removes the attack penalties and movement penalty.

At level 16 any area you Lockdown becomes so dense that it blocks Line of Effect. It also causes Teleportation and Teleportation like effects to not function within the Lockdown.

A Freedom of Movement effect has no effect on this blocking Line of Effect or stopping Teleportation.

Then add this line to the capstone:

Your Lockdown can now stop magic before it begins. With this, any area you Lockdown prevents all spells from being cast from within and suppresses effects granted from spells cast. Spells may still be cast into the sphere, as long as they don't require Line of Effect. This also effects spells from items, but the items themselves function normally.

For example:
A spell grants you Freedom of Movement. When you enter the field, that effect is suppressed and any attempt to recast it fails.
You wear a ring of Freedom of Movement. Upon entering the field the ring functions as normal and you continue to benefit from it.
You have an item that the the ability to cast spells. When you enter the field, any attempt to cast these spells fails and any that are already active are suppressed.


Does that look better guys?

[Mathias1313]

To Veklim: Thanks for responding. I used Insightful strike and weapon Spec as examples as they were the first to come to mind. I think you underestimate what a little dipping can do. Also, not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but you should be clear on wether wielding the weapons telekinetically counts as you wielding them for abilities and feats for example…. A 1lvl dip into rogue gets me 1d6 sneak attack damage. Not much extra but I can think of at least 3 items (rogues vest, bracers of hunter, and mantle of the predator) that each increase the sneak attack by additional d6s, so 4d6 total, now take craven for 4d6+20. Now unless I am missing something, your weapons threaten and can thus flank, with themselves. So even with a 1 lvl dip into rogue you can bust out some nice extra damage especially with 40 some odd attacks. I understand the to-hit would not be high but what if I say used a UMD wand of wraithstrike… now all of my 40 attacks are touch ac. And all that extra damage is even more painful. What about a couple of feats to get a shadow hand stance from ToB and then take I think its called Shadow Hand and now I get my Dex to damage as well. Try to remember that these are all just off the top of my head, I feel confident that if I had proper time, I could come up with some seriously nasty ideas. I really think you guys should decide if feats and abilities work while wielding weapons TK. I think It makes a pretty big difference.
What if instead of TK fighting as is you made it more like Multi-weapon fighting. You could avoid the whole, going from iterative attacks to 1 die roll back to iterative attacks again, which seems messy to me. Besides, it just dosen’t seem right that if I roll a natural 20 I have possible critted with ALL my attacks. So how about something like for every 2 hands dedicated to TK fighting in a round you may fight as if you had an additional arm. Allowing you to use feats like 2-weapon fighting, then maybe throw something like if you have 3+ arms in a round then the 2-weapon fighting tree acts as if the Multi-weapon fighting tree and for the purchase of said feats you may use you CHA, WIS, or INT instead of the DEX req. That way at 20thlvl you could act as if you had 6 arms (I think that’s right) and would have approx. 18 attacks. This would still be within the bounds of a dedicated melee specialist and would also not be half as bad as having to deal with 40+ attacks in a round.
Or how about if you don’t like the 2 hands thing, what about just 1 hand invested but with a max at certain lvls. That way you can still have other hands to do other things. Thoughts?

To DerTollUdo: I like the theme of the Lockdown power its just a bit too much I think. Opinions may very of course but at 13th lvl you have basically stopped all physical damage. Any form of ranged attacks will be laughable due to the extreme penalties to hit and only Slashing can function for melee within the area and with penalties at that. I still however think the Anti-Magic area is too much, you bring up the Wizard, but even a lvl20 wizard would have a hard time dealing with this. But lets forget that for now and use instead normal monsters. Dragons, Demons, devils.. all things that can be severely screwed by an antimagic zone. They all become very easy to deal with especially since there is no save to trap someone inside it. Its just there and the enemy is screwed.

I hope any of the above helps and I know a lot sounds like criticism but it is not. I love the idea of this class and for the most part the execution as well, I just have some problems with the odd thing here ot there. Keep up the good work everyone.

As a side note, what about a feat or something that allowed you to use your CHA as your STR in reference to your carrying capacity and perhaps and improved version that allowed you to be treated as a size larger for carrying capacity or as a quadraped. Also what about adding something where you got a bonus to Jump, Balance, tumbling, climb equal to your LVL or half your lvl in the class as TK assist in such thing and then if you are using PF you get said bonus to your FLY skill as well? Thoughts?

[Mathias1313]

To DerTollUdo: Sorry didnt see your revamp of the Lockdown before posting, I like it alot better. Just for clarification, Slashing and Bludg now have penalties to hit and deal half damage but Piercing is unaffected right?

[Veklim]

I meant, is there supposed to be a penalty for multiple weapons in gtkf...

Yes!

@Mathias1313:
I'll get back to all that later, TKF is messy looking I know, but the best way to stop all that is simply disallowing you to count as weilding the weapons yourself. Maybe roll crit confirmation seperately for each creature? Not sure if a complete revamp of TKF is needed yet, but if you're serious, could you write it down in a manner which reads like an ability? Then we have actual wording to discuss

[DerTollUdo]

To DerTollUdo: Sorry didnt see your revamp of the Lockdown before posting, I like it alot better. Just for clarification, Slashing and Bludg now have penalties to hit and deal half damage but Piercing is unaffected right?

Yeah this version of Lockdown was inspired after spending time going into detail about it with my buddy. Slash and Bludg are useable but suffer to hit penalties, and you only deal half damage when attacking with them. Piercing is unuseable, fluff wise: the air is just to thick to stab. I feel the 20th lvl ability is cool, but worry it is too convoluted to read easily...Thoughts on that?

To Veklim:

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Thanks for responding. I used Insightful strike and weapon Spec as examples as they were the first to come to mind. I think you underestimate what a little dipping can do. Also, not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but you should be clear on wether wielding the weapons telekinetically counts as you wielding them for abilities and feats for example…. A 1lvl dip into rogue gets me 1d6 sneak attack damage. Not much extra but I can think of at least 3 items (rogues vest, bracers of hunter, and mantle of the predator) that each increase the sneak attack by additional d6s, so 4d6 total, now take craven for 4d6+20. Now unless I am missing something, your weapons threaten and can thus flank, with themselves. So even with a 1 lvl dip into rogue you can bust out some nice extra damage especially with 40 some odd attacks. I understand the to-hit would not be high but what if I say used a UMD wand of wraithstrike… now all of my 40 attacks are touch ac. And all that extra damage is even more painful. What about a couple of feats to get a shadow hand stance from ToB and then take I think its called Shadow Hand and now I get my Dex to damage as well. Try to remember that these are all just off the top of my head, I feel confident that if I had proper time, I could come up with some seriously nasty ideas. I really think you guys should decide if feats and abilities work while wielding weapons TK. I think It makes a pretty big difference.

First, this assumes you have gotten the weapons into range. They can't blink around the field lol. But that aside, you have seriously crippled the rest of your class for that one level dip. You now only have 7 Hands + Con mod. 10 + con mod if you took the feat. At level 20 you would have 14 or 22 + Con mod if you took it full.

That aside. Let's assume you have a +5 con and +12 Cha since it is the main stat. Seems reasonable enough to me anyway. So now your rogue guy can wield 12 weapons, or 15 if he took the feat. If he does he suffers a -22 or -28 to hit. So with a BAB of 19 he can make 4 attacks at the following bonuses if he uses this ability: 9/4/-1/-6 or 3/-2/-7/-12. It ends with some very sad looking numbers. Even for touch attacks. And this assumes you did everything to your Cha bonus (18+6+5 tome+5 lvl).

I don't really see a problem, since doing this one dip costs you the capstone. But, if others do, what if we added this line to the ability:

Only weapons that are used within 5' of yourself count as being wielded by you for the purposes of class abilities and feats that affect them.

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What if instead of TK fighting as is you made it more like Multi-weapon fighting. You could avoid the whole, going from iterative attacks to 1 die roll back to iterative attacks again, which seems messy to me. Besides, it just dosen’t seem right that if I roll a natural 20 I have possible critted with ALL my attacks. So how about something like for every 2 hands dedicated to TK fighting in a round you may fight as if you had an additional arm. Allowing you to use feats like 2-weapon fighting, then maybe throw something like if you have 3+ arms in a round then the 2-weapon fighting tree acts as if the Multi-weapon fighting tree and for the purchase of said feats you may use you CHA, WIS, or INT instead of the DEX req. That way at 20thlvl you could act as if you had 6 arms (I think that’s right) and would have approx. 18 attacks. This would still be within the bounds of a dedicated melee specialist and would also not be half as bad as having to deal with 40+ attacks in a round.
Or how about if you don’t like the 2 hands thing, what about just 1 hand invested but with a max at certain lvls. That way you can still have other hands to do other things. Thoughts?

No. I do not like this idea as it is not the flavor of the class. I like that you thought it out but not the execution. Personal opinion not trying to be mean :)

But if you feel like that many attacks is an issue, which I would agree with, how about we keep it single roll and iterative? By that I mean you get the attacks for your BAB, but each iterative is only rolled once and applies to all weapons being wielded for that iterative. And any threatened criticals are confirmed separately. So you end up with about 4-6 die rolls depending on other abilities. Thoughts?

To DerTollUdo:

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I like the theme of the Lockdown power its just a bit too much I think. Opinions may very of course but at 13th lvl you have basically stopped all physical damage. Any form of ranged attacks will be laughable due to the extreme penalties to hit and only Slashing can function for melee within the area and with penalties at that. I still however think the Anti-Magic area is too much, you bring up the Wizard, but even a lvl20 wizard would have a hard time dealing with this. But lets forget that for now and use instead normal monsters. Dragons, Demons, devils.. all things that can be severely screwed by an antimagic zone. They all become very easy to deal with especially since there is no save to trap someone inside it. Its just there and the enemy is screwed.

You do realize that you can just put up a wall and all ranged attacks stop right? A lvl 20 wizard should really be wearing his tinfoil hat...but since it is no longer an AMF like effect and just stops/suppresses spell casting I see some rather hilarious events. You throw it on a fissioned person, they disappear. You toss it on the polymorphed guy, and suddenly its koala or something. Lol random suppression of spells feels fun :) and would be funny for some protection spells. I cast shrink item to steal this big heavy thing, then hide it in my pocket. The field falls on me, well crap. I have no more pocket and my big heavy thing is there in the open.


Oh, unrelated thought about a new capstone ability

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capstone ability for focused shield: When someone passes through the shield it no longer dissipates.
Also would be cool if you could make it so that weapons cannot pass through it, i.e. phasing arrows.

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I hope any of the above helps and I know a lot sounds like criticism but it is not. I love the idea of this class and for the most part the execution as well, I just have some problems with the odd thing here ot there. Keep up the good work everyone.

As a side note, what about a feat or something that allowed you to use your CHA as your STR in reference to your carrying capacity and perhaps and improved version that allowed you to be treated as a size larger for carrying capacity or as a quadraped. Also what about adding something where you got a bonus to Jump, Balance, tumbling, climb equal to your LVL or half your lvl in the class as TK assist in such thing and then if you are using PF you get said bonus to your FLY skill as well? Thoughts?

Don't worry, we appreciate the critiques. It helps balance and clarify the class.

I don't see a reason for the last part. The carrying capacity is handled quite well already with the Mental Strength ability. At level 20 you can carry 500lbs with one Hand indefinitely and move it in any direction, and add 500 for every additional Hand you wish to use. Or if you want something really stupidly heavy, you can push/drag something 5000lbs with one Hand at a speed of 10', adding more Hands to increase weight or speed.
As for the random bonus to skills, it isn't fitting of the class. Sure he could jump around, or he could just fly, same with balance, tumble, and climb. If he is trying to dodge something, just put up a wall.

Yes!

Added with another potential rework above. I also ralize we haven't settled on how we are handling the multi use ability. Just saying.

@Mathias1313:
I'll get back to all that later, TKF is messy looking I know, but the best way to stop all that is simply disallowing you to count as weilding the weapons yourself. Maybe roll crit confirmation seperately for each creature? Not sure if a complete revamp of TKF is needed yet, but if you're serious, could you write it down in a manner which reads like an ability? Then we have actual wording to discuss

I think I may have solved this issue above.

Oh, another thought. Should I make it so that Singularity, Lockdown, and Focused Shield may not occupy the same spaces? Otherwise, make a Singularity on a Lockdown at lvl 20 and box them in shields. They probably can't pass both saves and the Bullrush check.

[Veklim]

Oh, another thought. Should I make it so that Singularity, Lockdown, and Focused Shield may not occupy the same spaces?

YES! Thought we'd covered that already!

Also, I like the capstone addition for Focused Shield, I'm shocked we didn't think of that weeks ago! However, it already stops projectiles and spells with a to hit roll doesn't it?!

Only weapons that are used within 5' of yourself count as being wielded by you for the purposes of class abilities and feats that affect them.

Hrm, don't really think that's needed, but if it's liked by common consensus then fair enough I guess.

[DerTollUdo]

The mention of phasing was because that renders the shields irrelevant.

The change to only 5' is to prevent munchkining before it starts lol.

[Veklim]

Piercing is unuseable, fluff wise: the air is just to thick to stab.

Erm.....this is entirely the wrong way around. Piercing would work better than slashing or bludgeoning in a thick atmosphere/environment. It's all about surface areas and resistance, there's a reason harpoons are still used for underwater weaponry. Bludgeoning shouldn't work at all. Slashing should take penalties but still work a little. Piercing shouldn't take much (if any) penalty at all.

[Veklim]

OK, here we go (I realise the last post was a little...terse, sorry ). This is how I think a thickened atmosphere like this should go:

The penalty to hit should apply to all attacks.
Bludgeoning damage should be halved, and I'd consider turning it into subdual damage too. Slashing damage should be halved, but not subdual. Piercing should take a penalty to damage equal to the penalty to hit, nothing more.

Considering the TK already has shields by this point, and can happily mulch a single pesky ranged target in short enough order, I don't see a need to worry about it so much with Lockdown too. Lockdown (as I'm seeing it) is already a potent anti-magic/melee ability, and ranged combat (outside of phasing arrows, which I don't have a problem with personally, see my next point) is already dealt with so we should focus on the up-close element. Lockdown is what happens after the barbarian pushes through your shield/s and the wizard teleports past it.
Side note:

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Is the name 'Lockdown' in reference to Ghosts from SC by any chance? I keep seeing a TK with a helmet and a sniper rifle in my head...it's slightly odd.

Phasing arrows represent something I like to refer to as a 'soft spot'. There should always be a way of getting around a pre-epic defence, and this is the way of getting around a TK's shields. Fine by me. I'll get shot, it'll hurt, I'll then make the blighter's face explode/implode, slap a lockdown on them, throw a few weapons at him, then pick them up and laugh whilst my 8 weapons surround him... There are other options, we don't have to try and cover every defence, just every area of defence. We've just about done that already, and Lockdown represents the pinnacle of local area BFC. We already have shield for ranged/movement BFC, and we have weapons for the tactical control, plus Far Trick of course, which speaks for itself.

What I'm saying is, the TK has numerous means at hand (pun intended) for dealing directly with someone using phasing arrows, not everyone will have them, I'm sure (unless you run a rather odd world?!), and even when someone does have them, there's a whole world of pain ready to greet them if they use one on a wary TK.

[DerTollUdo]

As for Lockdown, no it is not inspired by the Ghosts lol.
As to the weapon penalties and such, it is supposed to be that the molecules and such are actually being slowed down by your Hands. This makes it far more thick and and harder to move. Eventually becoming so thick it is basically solid (blocks Line of Effect), and finally just stopping magic from being able to be created within it.

I really don't know what the weapon penalties would/should be. It was loosely based on the water penalties, but as I don't really understand them, I made up my own :P

How about this, mostly our idea: all melee works, and all take penalties. B/S are half damage B is nonlethal. No dmg penalty for P.

Because what you suggested could be rendered useless by ramping up the penalty.

The phasing I can understand. My DM is just a fan of creating "fire teams" which are basically mooks with super weapons. They all basically shoot volleys of super ammo too. This ammo includes Phasing lol. But oh well, not a big deal.

So, with the weapon changes, should I add the ability to the class? Is it ready?

[Veklim]

So, with the weapon changes, should I add the ability to the class? Is it ready?

Hrm...make the changes, yeah. We can tweak in situ once it's up there, and it fills a hole in the upper level defences. I'll read it all in one place then, and review the whole as I can.
No TKF feats yet, might do one or two later this evening, pending spare moments..!