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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Alright, added Lockdown to the class. Added, the restriction to Shields, Lockdown, and Singularity. Also added updates to the capstone. Look over those for me?

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I am still of the opinion that coupling the penalties and the size increase of lockdown makes the ability ridiculous.
    If it blocks your own line of effect the lvl 16 ability is okay, otherwise you are basically impossible to combat at that point.

    Singularity is still the mook-killer, but since it comes at lvl 19 thats of little consequence.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Technically, none of your own abilities state they need Line of Effect. They just need to be in your TK range and maybe have Line of Sight.

    What is your exact problem with linking the penalty and size? I see no issue since it will only really hurt ranged, but you can just box in your ranged opponents and they just fail. And that is with a significantly smaller amount of Hands.

    And since the class only really has 1 "mook killer" like ability and it only arrives at level 19 i see no issue.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I'm with Re'ozul on this one I'm afraid, the hands used to increase size for Lockdown shouldn't count towards the penalty increases. We already do this with other abilities in the class and Lockdown will become too much if left as is right now.

    Also, I think requiring line of sight OR a way of 'seeing' your target directly is appropriate for abilities in this class. Should probably state as much in the Hands entry somewhere.
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Alright, I'll add that the abilities require LoS.

    We still need to settle combining abilities...put up a new version on that, check it out.

    If we are going to seperate them, then I feel it should be -2/Hand. Otherwise it is not enough I feel...put it up, check it out.
    Last edited by DerTollUdo; 2012-03-24 at 04:26 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    The new wording for multi-actions is pretty tight actually, and the -4/additional works fine with me. Think we can actually agree on some middle ground there!

    If we are going to seperate them, then I feel it should be -2/Hand. Otherwise it is not enough I feel...put it up, check it out.
    Have had a stab at re-presenting Lockdown. So let's have a look at it with my editor's glasses on, think I can tidy it up a bit...

    Lockdown (SU):
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    At level 13 you learn how to use you Hands to slow the molecules within an area. As a move action you may create a sphere of dense air by using 1 Hand. The sphere is 5' in radius and may be placed anywhere within the range of your Hands.

    Thrown weapons cannot be used within the sphere, even when launched from outside. Ranged attacks with all other weapons or ranged spells take a -2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5' they travel through this effect, in addition to their normal penalties for range.
    Melee attacks take a -2 penalty to hit, and in addition Bludgeoning and Slashing attacks deal half damage, and Bludgeoning damage becomes exclusively nonlethal within the field (as if the weapon were Merciful). Melee Piercing weapons take a penalty to damage equal to the penalty to hit. Weapons which deal more than one type of damage at a time like a morningstar are considered whichever type would be least beneficial (so that morningstar would be considered Bludgeoning for this purpose, even though it also does Piercing damage under normal conditions).

    Creatures within the area of the Lockdown must make a Fort save if they wish to move. If they pass they may move up to 1/2 of their speed. If they fail by 4 or less, they may only move up to 1/4 of their move speed. Failure by 5 or more means the attempt to move fails and the action is wasted.

    You may augment Lockdown with additional Hands in one or more of the ways detailed below:
    Increase the radius of your Lockdown by 5'/Hand
    Increase all penalties to hit (melee, ranged and spells) by 2/Hand
    Increase the save DC by 1/Hand
    Any Hand invested this way only gives a bonus for the chosen area (i.e. if you want to increase the penalty by 4 and increase the DC by 4, you would need to invest 6 additional Hands)

    You cannot form multiple Lockdowns in any square occupied or affected by Focused Shield or Singularity. A Freedom of Movement effect removes the melee attack penalties and movement penalty.

    At level 16 any area you Lockdown becomes so dense that it blocks Line of Effect (as if it were solid), but not Line of Sight. It also causes Teleportation and Teleportation-like effects to fail within the Lockdown. A Freedom of Movement effect no longer removes the attack and movement penalties, and does not remove the Teleportation failure.


    What do you think? Tidied up the arrangement slightly, made the augmenting as clear as I could whilst staying concise and added a couple of points I thought needed clarification. Reworded slightly to cut down on clause repetition.

    On a side note, discovered a horrific combo using Far Trick (bullrushing), 4 weapons idling and 1 pumped up Focused Shield, can you see where I'm going yet? Certainly not broken or anything, but I'm starting to see more and more combinations with these effects, and once my high levellers get rolling we can test out our new guns (Lockdown and Singularity).
    Last edited by Veklim; 2012-03-25 at 07:47 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I like your wording. It fits nicely. You do realize though that you made some aspects even better?

    As to the combo you mentioned, you know that when they get bullrushed into a shield they use the check result that launced them instead of their own if it is higher, right?

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I like your wording. It fits nicely. You do realize though that you made some aspects even better?
    Yes, I realise, but I think it's now a little smoother around the edges for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    As to the combo you mentioned, you know that when they get bullrushed into a shield they use the check result that launced them instead of their own if it is higher, right?
    Yup, doesn't matter all that much, either way they take the shield damage too, plus you can do it all again next round either way!

    EDIT:
    Just noticed I missed one small but important bit in Lockdown. Add the underlined below:
    Melee Piercing weapons take a penalty to damage equal to the penalty to hit. Weapons which deal more than one type of damage at a time like a morningstar are considered whichever type would be least beneficial (so that morningstar would be considered Bludgeoning for this purpose, even though it also does Piercing damage under normal conditions).
    Last edited by Veklim; 2012-03-24 at 08:33 PM.
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    The part that got stronger is that you made it stop FoM at level 16. With that, what does mr. fighter do when he gets caught? He dies. That is what.

    As to the combo it is cool :)

    And edit your post with your fix to lockdown. Then I just copy pasta that one post to the main class.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Honestly I think we are making this class too indestructible in combat.

    At level 9 ranged is hosed (focused shield) and melee is greatly inconvenienced (also focused shield)
    At lvl 13 ranged becomes completely irrelevant (lockdown just stops that) and melee has an even harder time.
    At lvl 16 magic is hosed.
    At lvl 19 mass attacks work in favor of you (Singularity)
    At lvl 21 (if you take the epic version of combat reflexes) a lot of enemies die in the first round since any movement allows an AoO and you have infinite of them.

    All you need to do is encapsule youself into a lockdown sphere and surround it with shields.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Ranged is hosed long before that with other classes/spells. See Wind Wall.

    At 13 a really cheap graft makes it even more irrelevant as they can just deflect the shots.

    At 16 you need some protection from casters or you just die.

    At 19 you should rock against mooks, you're practically epic. And most other things your level will only be inconvenienced by the field.

    As for the epic feat, you need to be in position to hit them with weapons otherwise you only have so many hands to blast them with. Attacks may be inifinte, but Hands are not.

    I will agree though, as a battlefield control class they are very good at what they do. I do not think though that we have made something indestructible...

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I will agree though, as a battlefield control class they are very good at what they do.
    Aren't they just?!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I do not think though that we have made something indestructible...
    Agreed, there are plenty of areas where these guys have no more defence than the next person, they just happen to be hard to get at sometimes. Nothing at all out of line for their level though.
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  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    The problem I see isn't in "what could an optimized X do to an optimized telekineticist". I know most people on this forum are competent at optimizing.

    My problem would be pitting an unoptimized telekineticist against an entire party of unoptimized characters.

    This class is so incredibly forward that it is virtually impossible to screw up.
    While that is a good thing, its baseline unoptimized power is a good bit higher than virtually any class I know thats supposed to be on the same level.
    Its incredibly easy to play and succeed which can make other classes with more intricacies look kinda useless.
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I see your point, but isnt that what a good class should do?

    Also, it was brought to my attention that we may need a slight nerf on the 3 control abilities. As is they mean you win the action economy. So they should instead be standard actions. Which also means they should then be eligible for the feat tree to reduce their action cost. And remove mental strength from that list since it was reduced to move as it is mainly utility. A thought about how to do it:
    TK Focus becomes each time you want to use one of the abilities from the list you may use it as a move action, but only up to con mod times per day no matter which ones you chose.
    TK Spec becomes pick 1 it is a move action.
    TK Sup becomes the others may be used up to con score per day as move actions in any combination. Thoughts?
    Last edited by DerTollUdo; 2012-03-25 at 10:14 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    OK, so we should have Mental Strength and Focused Shield as move, and everything else as a standard action then?

    TK Focus becomes each time you want to use one of the abilities from the list you may use it as a move action, but only up to con mod times per day no matter which ones you chose.
    TK Spec becomes pick 1 it is a move action.
    TK Sup becomes the others may be used up to con score per day as move actions in any combination. Thoughts?
    This breaks action economy faaaaar worse than the original set of feats. Leave the feats in the order/ability that they have currently, they've been balanced so that it costs you 3 feats to make one ability permanently become a move action, which is about right. TK Spec needs to say -2 instead of -1, since we've changed the FRA clause we need to change this to compensate.

    I can sit down and come up with another feat needing TK Focus (or maybe Spec..?) as requirement, which will add economy to the unchosen abilities if you like, but it'll destabilise the class balance fairly fast. Right now you need 4+ feats to make more than one control ability a move action per round, what you're suggesting above would mean you only need 3 to use ANY control ability with a move action. Hate to be blunt, but that's broken beyond repair...

    Its incredibly easy to play and succeed which can make other classes with more intricacies look kinda useless.
    So what you're saying is we've succeeded in making a functional and simple TK user class, but because we've done that lots of other classes suck a little more..?! Heh...
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  16. - Top - End - #256
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Focused Shield should be standard. It is better than any wall a wizard could make. And if it were a standard, I would still use it. If it were a move I would probably always use it.

    Yeah...I figured. Just a slight hope :P Also, with the way they are it will take until epic to get singularity down to move but only a few times per day. Maybe change some prereqs? Idk.

    And are you sure it is a good idea to leave Lockdown completely stopping fighter types at level 16? I feel that is completely too strong.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Focused Shield should be standard. It is better than any wall a wizard could make. And if it were a standard, I would still use it. If it were a move I would probably always use it.
    Aye, standard is perfectly reasonable since we beefed up the shields somewhat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Yeah...I figured. Just a slight hope :P Also, with the way they are it will take until epic to get singularity down to move but only a few times per day. Maybe change some prereqs? Idk.
    This is not a bad thing at all. It's a high level ability which can REALLY hurt already, pumping it with the feats should happen post-epic.
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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I know. I just want my cake, and to throw it at the enemy too lol.

    As for Lockdown, I still don't think it should negate FoM at 16...

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    hrmmmmmm, maybe not then, ok.
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  20. - Top - End - #260
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Just had a thematic idea. Should we change Mind's Eye to be Touchsite? Or keep it Blindsight?

    And as for he FoM thing: I feel as though it should remain as I have it written. That way it doesn't screw fighters over for minimal investment.

    Also had a feat idea or addition to the class: Allow flight to be modified by Hands. Add 5' Hand invested. Just a thought.

    Edit: Put up some edits to the class. Check it out.
    Last edited by DerTollUdo; 2012-03-27 at 12:09 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    This may sound strange coming from me, but I don't think making shields a standard action is agood idea.

    By that point you generally will have a lot of hands.
    All the good multi target abilities have extra penalties if you use it on many targets, so you'll want something that can use many hands and not make the ability extremely weak via those penalties.
    That was the niche that the shields filled. They are a move action, have a good passive effect and feel like you are accomplishing something.

    So the first round of any combat now will most likely be throwing up shields so as to not 'lose' uses of hands in that round.
    Sure you could combine that with something else, but with the modified multi-ability rule its nearly useless to use 3 abilities or more (a -8 on top of normal multi-hand penalties when force blasting or far tricking already is borderline).

    I am disregarding the feats here as people might not take them.

    shields as move pidgeonholed them into a sort of 'use rest of hands for' position. But shields as standard makes the action economy suddenly a lot clunkier in my imagination.

    I guess you could argue that it makes mental strenght more attractive to use, but aside from being a pack-mule or trolling enemies, its just not very attractive to me.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Looking back over the class, we have a deficit of move actions now, considering the TK will spend half their time standing still looking menacing, it's not a bad thing to have more than one option for their move action (other than taking 3+ feats or the FRA option, which is now balanced enough to be a real toss-up as to whether to split actions or focus fire)...

    I don't have a problem with Focused Shield being a move action, DerTollUdo made a fairly simple arguement for standard, but having gone back over the playtests which I've done recently, the shields are usually used in much the way Re'ozul mentioned, as a 'spare Hands ability'. Unless someone else gives me a good enough reason to increase the time, I think it should remain a move action. Thing is, yes it's better than any shield/wall a wizard can produce in many ways, but it's only one ability, as opposed to the potentially dozens of shield/wall spells which may be cherry-picked for optimal use with a wizard. Move actions don't get much love unless you spend a fair few feats, and even then, it's only for one ability. Consider what a mage can do with swift spells, quickened spells and the like, and we're actually bang on track for a lower-tier version of that same action economy. The same action economy which pushes casters so far ahead of most other classes, and which needs addressing across the entire system btw. This cass (imo) actually hits the sweet spot of action choice/economy, a reasonable but not excessive set of options which you can adapt to fit most combat situations and time/target constraints.

    I guess you could argue that it makes mental strenght more attractive to use, but aside from being a pack-mule or trolling enemies, its just not very attractive to me.
    Mental Strength is a utility option, with limited and/or extremely specific combat benefits. This is not a bad thing. Not every ability should be about damage, either stopping or preventing it (or a mixture of both, of course!), there are many other things which can be done with TK fluff, The Maker being a good example of this. We shouldn't have to change action times just because it makes something else look more attractive, especially when the thing you're trying to beautify isn't really a solid choice for most situations where a choice need be made!

    Just had a thematic idea. Should we change Mind's Eye to be Touchsite? Or keep it Blindsight?
    They are basically identical, apart from the name anyhow, so I see little reason why not. It does more accurately describe what the TK is doing after all...

    And as for he FoM thing: I feel as though it should remain as I have it written. That way it doesn't screw fighters over for minimal investment.
    I've now gone through the books looking for ways of counteracting FoM as a way of seeking balance, and have found VERY little which does so. Whereas I feel I MUST point out that 16 levels in one class is not what I'd call a 'minimal investment', the idea of FoM being completely supressed is probably a little too much for pre-epic stuff. It does give us an idea of something to do for an epic feat though

    Also had a feat idea or addition to the class: Allow flight to be modified by Hands. Add 5' Hand invested. Just a thought.
    Something like this maybe?

    Enhanced TK Flight
    Requirements: Telekinetic Flight class ability
    Benefit: You may augment your TK flight with additional hands in either or both of the following ways:
    You may gain an enhancement bonus to your fly speed equal to +5'/additional Hand.
    When you activate your flight ability, you may target any number of willing medium or smaller creatures for 2 additional Hands per target. This gives them the use of Telekinetic Flight as if they were a Telekineticist of equal level with the same number of Hands invested (in the same way) in their flight. This lasts for as long as you yourself are maintaining the effect. When the effect ends for any reason, anyone you 'brought along' descends in the same manner as described in the Telekinetic Flight section of Telekineticist. Larger creatures may be affected by this but you must use more hands to do so at a rate of +1 Hand/size category larger than medium (so a huge creature would require 4 hands).

    That covers both ideas we've had over the last month or so on what else to do to TK Flight. I think the costing is reasonable, what do you guys think?
    Last edited by Veklim; 2012-03-27 at 05:12 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Reading Focused Shields again theres actually some things that I have a problem with.
    You may form the barrier over a creature, in which case it is effected as though it had tried to pass though the wall (The creature is pushed towards the closest edge of the wall, or whatever direction is not facing you in case of a tie).
    As there doesn't seem to be a save attached to this its basically guaranteed movement or damage. That seems a bit much. While the shields are different than magic walls I'd at least keep it so that you can't create a wall in a square that is occupied by a small or larger creature. (Tiny creatures and smaller can share a square with a shield and upon creation decide what side they are on).
    Any creature that attempts to pass through the barrier takes force damage equal to 1D6 +1/ class level.
    I only noticed that now, but does this mean they also take damage if they don't get through the wall? I was working with the assumption that you only took damage when succeeding in forcing yourself through the wall, the damage coming from the destabilized force effect wracking your body.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Creating a barrier on top of a creature is a bit much (unless Tiny or smaller, fair enough) I'm not sure if I like that.

    The damage happens to anyone who touches the shield, whether they force through or not. That's why the damage is negligable.
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  25. - Top - End - #265
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I wouldn't really call the damage negligible.

    at 9th level its 1d6+9, so 12.5 on average.

    Sure it gets less meaningful the higher you get, but on the other hand its guaranteed damage. No attack roll, no save it will happen.

    That was my problem with the 'shield on creature' since the rules would allow making shields on a medium creature and adjacent squares so you could juggle creatures to death.
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  26. - Top - End - #266
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Wall of Fire deals 2D6+1/level fire damage, 2D4 to anything within 10ft and 1D4 to anything between 11ft and 20ft away, doesn't disperse (except from cold damage), doesn't require round after round of investment (Hands being busy maintaining shields), covers a far larger area, deals double damage to undead and is a level 4 spell, i.e. 2 class levels earlier for a wizard than Focused Shield for a TK. Wall of Force is only level 5 so it becomes available at the same level as Focused Shield and is technically better than Focused Shield in a few ways, not least of which being a barbarian can push through Focused Shield without magical intervention, he certainly can't get through a wall of force...

    Compare 1D6+9 (7-15) from a static, passive source (Focused Shield) with the damage a single Hand holding a weapon can do at the same level...seriously.
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

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  27. - Top - End - #267
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Part of the argument for shields as a standard instead was that we basically have an at will ability that we can place anywhere in a huge radius the blocks line of effect and heavily restricts movement. It is also dysjunct proof since its SU. Really you could always walk around in bubbles of the shields and never have to touch the ground or suffer a not any kind of surprise attack in your bubble that you fly through.

    I like the feat for the flight. Quick clarification though, is it the its too per creature and they get it at the same efficiency as you have it? So when you have three Hands in it at first for no limit toss in two more Hands for an ally and they get limitless flight? Just checking.

    Cool on the Touchsight thing. I felt that since they are technically psionic they might as well have their vision type :)

    Knocking out FoM pre epic with a single Hand is really powerful. And as currently is, we have it screwed over at 20 if it doesnt come from a ring of FoM. So I think it might be ok, besides if you cant hold them with Lockdown, just put a box around them lol.

    The damage from the shield is only supposed to happen if you fail to pass through it. It is the force you are repelled by hurting you, hence why dmg goes up as the bullrush check goes up. And it is actully really hard to ping pong people since they the check that launched them in the first place if it was higher. Other walls can be put on people, and I don't really see a problem with this one being able to as well. Maybe add a save to get out of the way? I don't like it but if you guys feel it is needed...

    With all this said, which action do you feel shields should be?

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    @Veklim

    I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying the damage was too high or anything, just that the damage wasn't negligible in my mind.

    @derTollUdo
    Even as a standard action they don't change much. The way I see it, players will simply throw up all their hands as shields in the first round and then free-action-lower them for other stuff in subsequent rounds. (unless the action to lower them is more than a free action)

    I forgot about the forced movement specifics on shield ping pong. Its still possible if you are lucky but a lot harder.
    So if you can get through nothing happens? I have to admit that somewhat disappoints me. I was looking at it as either the person gets through and eats some damage for it from muscling through destabilized force, or gets thrown back and takes no damage.
    No damage when muscling through might be more fair objectively. I can't really say I liked the old version better as apparently my interpretation was false also.
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  29. - Top - End - #269
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    They will probably remain free to drop. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

    As for them not taking damage, that is how it was originally designed.They are supposed to be a threat. If they try to go through and get bounced off and take some damage they will be hesitant to go through it again. Thus they have served their purpose. If they only get moved away when they try it inst really much of a deterrent. Maybe at 20 we add that they take damage if they pass through? I don't really see that being a problem. Do you?

    I am personally for Shields as a move, but do realize that they become really powerful that way. With them as move, you will be using them basically every round. So need the arguments for both sides.

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Ok, I may be absent for a few days, as of 8pm GMT today, my computer has been reduced to a very expesnsive paperweight (boot drive just imploded). As such I'm relegated to my smartphone for the foreseeable future.

    My vote has to go for free action to drop, move action to activate and damage on failure. Damage on success at 20th is nice, otherwise I think the ability is pretty iconic for any force user, and honestly it should serve as the linchpin of the class' upper half with regards to tactics. This is BFC at it's best, you sacrifice your own movement to hamper opponent's movements. What better arguement is there?! Besides, limited Hands is always a factor, a wizard can cast again and again, layering effects, the TK can only do so much at a time...already far more balanced than usual for a BFC character.
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

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