The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

[Little Brother]

Okay, my first handbook, and I just wrote it at midnight, so it's probably crappy.

EDIT: Thrice-Dead-Cat did a lot of editing for clarity and convenience, so here's his update, with some very slight tweeking from me. Anything in some weird color is his commentary.:

Introduction:

Theurges are my favorite builds. I love the options, and I absolutely love the ability to throw massive amounts of spells at everything. Five minute adventure day? Nope, I can throw a spell a round, and last for as long as I want.

As a Theurge, you want some means of getting two types of "casting" per level. After you have your two base classes, your best bet is to hurry into a prestige class and to get both types of casting at each level. The bar bones is the Mystic Theurge found here and the DMG. It's nothing fancy, but it gets what you want most: more spells for both your arcane and divine casting at each class level.

Although this guide lists other options, the terms "caster" and "casting" refer to all sorts of different magical spells and abilities. The list includes things like the Magic of Incarnum classes, the three Tome of Magic classes, psionics (also found in The Expanded Psionics Handbook), and even a brief mentioning of Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. For the most part, this guide is about different X-meets-Y things.

While you can try to get other things like an almost perfect Base Attack Bonus for more attacks in a round, you'd be better off asking the Playground or Google for a "Gish" guide, even though things like Eldritch Knight are basically "Fighter+caster." Things like the Arcane Trickster that mix sneaky backstabbing with casting are similarly beyond the scope of this guide, but options are listed for completeness' sake.

Levels and Actions
So, you're a magical man (or woman) twice over, but losing out on the newest spells from leveling up in one class hurts. The benchmark is usually to compare yourself to a single-class version of one your two base classes. Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 has as many spells as a Wizard 13 and a Cleric 13, but he still probably can only cast one or two spells a round. Meanwhile, a Wizard 15 just got his 8th level spells on line compared to the first's 7th level spells. And no matter how many spells you have known and ready for use, you still can't use them all at once without feats, items, or yes, even other spells.

While a lot of spells are powerful, you probably are only going to use one (maybe two, with Quicken Spell) in a round. Thus, it helps to "rush" into your prestige class of choice. This is a dangerous road, as not every single early entry trick or ability will work at each table. In general, ask your DM first before you do it because your mileage will vary. Most of these "early entry" tricks will be marked by an * for ease of use.

Legend
This guide is color coded for convenience. Generally speaking...

• DeepSkyBlue is the best around.
• Blue is good or above average.
• Black is average.
• Purple is below average, but workable for one thing or another.
• Red is the really below average or the "worst."
• *Asterisks* mean that this is highly variable with different groups. A lot of these involve getting into prestige classes sooner than the normal Wizard/Cleric. Your Mileage WILL Vary.

*What can I do with my magic?*

You have a very big tool box with all of your spells. Spells like charm person, dominate person, and teleport change the fight and day so very much. Some of these spells have saves, spell resistance (SR), weak range (touch or "close"), or some other drawback. Others are higher level than you have access to, but a rare few "just happen."

The below are different ways to play your Theurge. Each is doable, but some require more books or resources than others.

Battlefield Control- Generally, these types of spells are all about changing the battle or conflict in some big way. Sometimes it's using teleport-type spells to get your people in combat or getting enemies out of combat. Sometimes it's a well placed Grease spell to make the enemies fall on their butts. Generally, you're looking at either the Conjuration school for movement types and Illusion and Enchantment for trickery and stealth in so far as wizard schools go.

Skill-monkey- Spellcasters are known for their bags of tricks. It's not out of the question, but doing so requires a lot of spells known (and used) and either a lot of INT or skill points per level to be doable. A personal favorite of mine, admittedly.

Blaster- Not impossible. Rolling for damage can be very fun, but the difference between "enough damage" and "Overpowered broken" damage is a hard line to place. Generally, anyone can do damage in a turn, so save your spells and abilities for other things.

Buff-monkey: Buff spells help your team. Either one person or the entire group! It may be the rogue or fighter that does the killing blow, but being able to give them that extra strength from Bull's Strength means you did your part, too! For wizard schools, your best bets are Transmutation for offensive power and Abjuration for defensive power. There are gems all around, though. Haste and everything teleport-y are conjuration.

Healing- Yes, you may be part cleric. Yes, you have wizard casting to throw whatever you want at whatever is trying to ruin your day, but being "proactive" is easier. A well placed heal or cure spell can save a friend from bleeding out in a round while some form of restoration or "morning after" magic can undo that nasty STR score damage that hit your fighter the last round. Let's be honest, though, a level 1 Orc Barbarian can easily do as much as a 5th level Cleric's best heal. Having this "OH CRAP!" buttons on hand is nice, but not always a top priority.

Minion master- There are two quick ways to have "pets:" Summon Monster X or Rebuke Undead with some means of creating them. Druid based Theurges can also use Summon Nature's Ally, but those are the basics of it. A straight wizard, though, can do this entirely better than you, though.

The best part about being a theurge, though is that it can do every single one of these things. You are versatile in the extreme. It doesn't mean you will do all of these things, but it's possible if you have a lot of books to use or your group is starting at higher levels.

Generally, though, pick a focus. Even though you are a Theurge, you only have so many feats and skill points at a time. You need some of these to do your shtick, some to get into prestige classes, and others to get better feats.

Rules of Theurges
Rule 1: Do not lose 9s
rule 2: DO NOT lose 9s

[Little Brother]

Races and stats and stuff:

Due to popular request, this post is getting expanded, and might be a touch confusing.

*Races, Stats, and Classes*

Due to popular request, this post is getting expanded, and might be a touch confusing. Generally, you want to start out with a high casting stat. If you rolled your stats, your two highest should be in your two casting stats. There are ways to insure you only need one stat to power your spells, but doing so often requires diving through multiple books to get that online.

Below are some general things in regards to both physical and mental stats.

Physical stats
Stats:
Strength: You are a WIZARD! You have a lot of magic, but not a terribly great base attack bonus. While touch attacks are generally easier to land than normal attacks, STR only really gives you a bonus in melee and carry capacity. Generally, this is a "last pick" stat, so dump it if at all possible.
Dexterity: Dexterity is the poster child of stats. It helps to determine your ranged attacks (spells and otherwise), your AC (not getting hit means not taking damage), initiative, and your reflex saves (Again, taking less damage). If you have high stats, something like a 14 or 16 is good, but anything above a 10 means you're set.
Constitution: Constitution is another good stat to have a fair amount in. It's helps determine your Fortitude saves, your HP (multiclassing between multiple casters means you probably have a ton of d4s or d6s as you level up), and your Concentration skill checks. As with Dexterity, anything above a 10 is good, but you usually want it to be higher for more HP as you level up. Generally, you want the higher modifier here

Mental stats
In general, pick two of these and forget the third. Sometimes you can get by with just one of the three, but that really depends on your base class "ingredients." Aim for a starting stat of at least 16 in your two casting stats, but only ever put your level up points in one of the two of them. Personally, I prefer arcane magic to divine magic, as do I, so go for whatever fuels that type of magic and make that stat your "primary" ability score.

Classes and combos

In general, this guide is about adding divine and arcane magic together. As such, I'll list most of the base classes available to you in DND 3.5, plus a few prestige classes that give their own casting.

NOTE:This guide, at least currently, is focusing more on Arcane/Divine, so I won't go in-depth on the others until I am satisfied with the completeness of it.

Generally, prepared casters like clerics, druids, and wizards have an easier time being a Theurge as they get spells one level before spontaneous casters like Sorcerers and Favored Souls do. If you're want to focus on higher level spells, general look at a Wizard/X or Cleric/X combination.

Arcane Casters

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PHB Classes

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Wizard: Higher level spells at odd levels, can safely specialize for more spell slots. This is all good.
Sorcerer: Slow progression, fewer spells known, no saving graces, really.
Bard: Qualifies you for Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist, but in and of itself? Hell no.

Fast progression classes

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Nar Demonbinder:Not as good progression as the SC, but really, the spell list is gorgeous. Works for a Cha-SAD build.
Sublime Chord: I need to find a color better than sky blue that doesn't give people seizures! This thing is crazy! Fast progression, Cha-based for those SAD builds, CL loops and shenanigans, and so on. This thing is amazing. Also, it requires Profession: Astrologer, so, along with your Divine Casting, like Favored Soul, you can totally play this non-stop, or anything else out of that album, really.

Divine CastersCommentary and organization Arcanist, added to by me.

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Base Classes

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Cleric: Higher level spells at odd levels, effectively just as good as Wizard. It is notable for tricks to get early access to high-level spells almost as easily as the Ardent. "But LB," I can hear you saying, "You've said this fifty times, we get it already!" It needs to be said again, though, it is that important

• Evangelist Cleric: Spontaneous cleric with spells known mostly based on whatever deity you worship. Stupidly powerful using Pantheon rules, given that you gain a crap-ton-and-a-half domains. Also, SAD. And makes the Favored Soul join the Sorcerer crying in a corner.

Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters, except worse... ugh total skip...
Spirit Shaman: Mediocre at best. Sorta toes the line between red and black. Not as bad as Favored Soul, much more versatile, but, really, the Druid list is bad. I mean, it does have some of the win buttons, like Shapechange, but overall, just save yourself the pain, and use the Archivist. If you EVER think about using this with anything but Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord, I will personally hunt you down.
Shugenja: Basically, see above. Meh list, nothing real going for it.
NOTE: In some of the arena contests, including Test of Spite if my horrible memory serves, the Sorcerer was close enough to tier one that it didn't matter, was hugely powerful. If it makes a poor Theurge, why should its red-headed stepsiblings be decent?
Archivist: DING DING DING! We have a winner! pretty much Wizard for Divine casters. God-class. Would be absolutely superior to the Cleric in every way, if not for DMM.
Druid: Good for Arcane Heirophant and a personal favorite due to wild shaping. Still inferior to Cleric/Archivist, but a solid choice

Fast progression classes

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Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon. You absolutely cannot go wrong. Only downside is you can't get Dweomerkeeper, or steal SLAs, but those are unneeded if you're doing it right.

Specific Theurge stats:

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Physical stats
Stats:
Str: You are a WIZARD! If you are in melee, you deserve the very painful death coming your way. If you can pick up your spellbook, it’s high enough. Dump to hell and back
Dex: Affects AC, but you can buff yours magically. Affects ranged touch attacks. I really like this stat, but you’re MAD, so you can ignore this.
Con: Affects HP and concentration. You need it. You do not need a +5 modifier, but whatever.

Classes and combos:
NOTE:This guide, at least currently, is focusing more on Arcane/Divine, so I won't go in-depth on the others until I am satisfied with the completeness of it.
Here are the more synergistic class combos, and the important stats.

Sorcerer/Favored Soul or Spirit Shaman: Unless you're using early entry tricks, avoid this you lose 9th level spells. Instead, go with Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder on the arcane side. Either way, on anything like this:

Int: Skills are nice...
Wis: DCs are nice
Cha: Yeah, I hear your casting stat is slightly important. Just a little...

Wizard/Archivist
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards AND archivists. Max it
Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, nowhere near. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats.
Cha: Turn undead, if you took the Planar Touchstone, so it's nice. Otherwise forget about it

Wizard/Cleric:
This is the best base-class Theurge. Why not Wizard/Archivist, you ask? It is mostly SAD. No. The reason is you can get early 9s, and nab Dweomerkeeper.
NOTE: After some more game-play, I have concluded that, while better if you are allowed serious cheese, the Dweomerkeeper is only slightly better than SAD, so, while superior, it is by only a tiny margin. Go with whatever you think is cooler, you shouldn't notice much of a difference, beyond slightly less spending money.
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards. Max it
Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, IMO, unless you’re using early access to Wish to go crazy. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats.
Cha: Turn undead. You like this. It is fun. You are MAD. I like a 12-ish in here, but do what you want here.
Druid/Wizard:
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards Max it
Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, IMO.
Cha: This does precisely nothing. Forget this stat exists.
Th rest can be lumped into one of these.

Some special ones:
Sorcerer/Binder
Int: Skills are your friend.
Wis: Doesn't help anything.
Cha: This affects everything you do. You NEED this.
Wizard/Erudite
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards AND Erudites. Max it
Wis: Will save, I guess...
Cha: Yeah, no.

Races:
LA 0
Illumian: You have the easiest time entering early. Best race, hands down. I prefer Naenhoon, for ease of early entry, but the Krau-based ones have some nice bonuses, too.
Kobolds: Ah, Kobolds, I love them and all the cheese that accompanies them. Probably won't fly, but whatever.
Human: It’s a human. You can’t go wrong here.
Elf: Normally, I hate elves, but Gray Elves get a bonus to intelligence and a penalty to mostly dump stats, AND you get access to the Elven Generalist. Good, really good.
Lesser Aasimar: Bonus to two of your most important stats? Yes, please!
Dragonborn: These guys are an odd lot. They’re okay on a lot, but far from ideal. Stick this on an elf, though, and these guys are great.
Magic-blooded: A penalty to wisdom. Only think about if you’re going something like Archivist/Sublime Chord. Otherwise, forget it exists.
Unseelie Fey: See above. Also, +2 Dex, -2 Con hurts, unless...
[Color=blue]Arc[/url]tic: +2 Con, -2 Dex, resistance to cold, couple other goodies. 95% of the time, Con is vastly more important than Dex. Also, makes Grey Elves actually really good. +2 Int, -2 Str is a GREAT trade. Dragon material, so might not be an option.
Primordial Half-Giant: LA 1 for -2 Strength, -2 dexterity, +4 intelligence, and +4 charisma? At will invisibility? Helloooo, nurse! If LA buy-off is allowed, you want this. Otherwise, the LA hurts enough that it is merely average. Any Wizard(Or Sublime Chord. Or sorcerer, I guess if you like that)/Cha-based Divine MUST use this, especially if you use Magic-Blooded, too.

Most other races are eh at best. Avoid LA like the plague in most cases. You lose caster levels as is, you can't afford more.

[Little Brother]

Your build, itself:

Class features:
Yes, a lot of your classes have nifty class features, no you don’t care about them, beyond Turn Undead. You are here for the spells. Nothing else really matters, so I’m not gonna bother. Exception: Duskblade: The ability to channel touch attack with, say, Harm? Not bad.

ACFs:

A lot of them are crap. I’m only covering the useful ones:

Wizard:

Focused Specialist: You are a Theurge for versatility. Clerics have all of the good spells for, say, Necromancy, they have most of they have most of the good Transmutations and Conjurations with the right domains, but, most importantly, you can use Alternative Source Spell to prep cleric spells in those slots. USE! Divination is my personal favorite, but Conjuration or Transmutation work.
Spontaneous Divination: Take it, period.
Elven Generalist: This is the only reason to be an elf. If you are one, take this.

-Domain Wizard If you are a generalist, you are taking this. Period.

Not familiar with any more important ones that I can take, so whatever.

Cleric:

Cloistered Cleric: You like skill points. Use.
Divine Restoration: Pretty good if you take domains for spell(Hint: That’s one of the reasons you’re here), so yeah. Pretty nifty.
Spontaneous Domain: Yes. Flexibility is what you want. You aren’t a heal-bitch you are the goddamn batman. This helps.
Divine Magician: Okay… Take only to cover schools you’ve banned.
Planar Banishment: It’s okay, depending on your campaign, I guess.

Any thoughts or more decent ACFs?

Feats:

Earth Spell: How you get ninth level spells early. Damn good.
Heighten: See above. I always take this first level. It is how you get into Mystic Theurge early enough
Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment: Want a domain power, but you took your domains for nice spells? Worry no more! My favorite use for this is to be an Azurin or take Destroy Undead/Planar Banishment, then take the DLCS Sun domain. Two turn pools. Otherwise incredibly useful.
Metamagics in general: You’re a caster. This makes your casting better. USE IT!
Divine MetamagicGreat, but if you’re an illumian(As you should be if you can), it’s kinda redundant. IF you can’t, be a human and have your first two feats be DMM and Heighten. Similar, less versatile effect.
Extra Slot: Crazy on anyone. Why the Envy domain is so good, by the way. Wishes at level three? Useless. Free wishes by level 9? Amazing. DM’s face when you PAO into a dragon? Priceless.
Alternative Spell Source: You are taking this. PERIOD. It is why theurges rock so much. Due to pestering, here's a more in depth explanation:

Alternative Source spell lets you prep arcane spells as divine and vice-versa. This means several things: One, you can cast wizard spells at -1 CL to ignore AFC. It also lets your cleric side benefit from, say, Arcane thesis, and lets you use DMM as a wizard! Basically, any fun toys one class gets, both do. You absolutely cannot miss this. It's Dragon, so some DMs will knee-jerk ban it.

It also lets you enter "Early" without minor cheese, by going Wizard 3/Cleric or Archivist 1(Or vice versa), and you can then 2nd level arcane spells as divine spells.

You know, just get Dragon 325. It's got all sorts of good Theurge feats, beyond even this gem.

Theurgic Specialist: Basically, when casting from your specialist school(Meaning you are a wizard. No complaints here), you combine all of your spellcasting class's CL. Only amazing on certain builds, but can do help out anywhere, especially on Ur-Wizards, who frequently hurt for CL on the Ur-Priest side.
Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots): And
Open Lesser Chakra(Feet) give you evasion to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist. If you are going that way, you had better take these. If not, forget them, take two levels of Divine Oracle if you need to.

Those Dragonlance feats that change your casting stat: Can be nifty, can be useless. Take your pick. Do note that these are not in the "Official" DL book, IIRC, so, strictly speaking, they are 3rd party.

Other Dual-progression stuff:

Ultimate Magus(CM): Prepared Arcane/Spont Arcane.
Cerebremancer(XPH): Psionic/Arcane
Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
Psychic Theurge: Divine/Manifester
Noctumancer(ToM): Shadowcaster/Arcane
Yathrinshee(PgF): Arcane/Divine. Complete trash, loses a bajillion caster levels
True Necromancer(LM): Arcane/Divine.
Soulcaster (Meldshaping/Arcane, MoI pg. 142)
Soul Manifester (Meldshaping/Psionics, Mind's Eye
Noctumancer (Mysteries/Arcane, ToM pg. 125)
Anima Mage (Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Psi, ToM pg. 50)
Tenebrous Apostate (Binding/Divine, ToM pg. 63)
Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB, Arcane/Initiating)
Ruby Knight Windicator (ToB, Divine/Initiating)

Theurge Traps:

These classes look like theurges, requiring multiple casting sources, but don't advance both.

Geomancer: Arcane/Divine, but only advances one
Fiendbinder/Brimstone Speaker, but half truespeak, so not much of a loss.
True Necromancer: Gives up too many levels of each. Terrible.
Yalfa-something: Crappy dark elves... Far to many levels lost

Classes to avoid

Sorcerer
Why it sucks: The only thing it's SAD with is Favored Soul, which has so many better things to be with.
What it wants to be: Sublime Chord
Verdict: If you really need a base arcane caster that's not bard, it's acceptable. Still REALLY bad.

Beguiler
Why it sucks: Archivists and correctly-domained Clerics already have everything this thing does. Even a Bloodlined Sublime Chord/Nar Demonbinder can.
What it wants to be: Bard or Wizard
Verdict: What little it has that the wizard doesn't do just as well, an Archivist can. Ignore.

Dread Necromancer
Why it sucks: Because its schtick was being an arcane Necro-Cleric. You have all the clericy-goodness it has, and the wizardy-ness the cleric lacks.
What it wants to be: Deathbound Cleric/Necromancer
Verdict: You can do anything it can better. Laugh at anyone who suggests it.

Warmage
Why it sucks: Because blasting sucks, you need a lot of PrCs to make it work, and anything it could do in this build, a Sublime Chord can do better.
What it wants to be: Sublime Chord/Rainbow Warsnake
Verdict: Revoke/deny any relationship with anyone who suggests this.

Special Mention: Dweomerkeeper
Looks like Mystic Theurge, only advances one, but, come on! It's the Dweomer Keeper, SU spells, spontaneousness, other sweetness. Can't go wrong.

Can't think of more off the top of my head, sorry.
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Gear:
Stat-boosting items: Kinda obvious. Casting stats are kinda important.
Pearls of Power/Karma Beads:Typical caster items.
Ring of Freedom of Movement: Defensive item. Nifty and convenient

Otherwise, just think about items. There are plenty of items.

I'd like opinion on this.

[Little Brother]

Common Prestige Classes:

Mystic Theurge: Basic premise of the handbook. Probably one of the worst full theurge classes, but it works. It's the easiest. If you are theurging from a low level, you will use this.
Fochlucan Lyrist: Mystic Therurge, but better. Hard to get in, though. You will use this if you are going Sublime Chord. Otherwise, typically not worth it.
Nar Demonbinder: Fast progression, damn good list. This is best with Ur-Priest. Works anywhere, though.
Sublime Chord: More fast progression. Good class. Spontaneous, though, so no Alternate Source Spell without Arcane Preparation feat.
Ur-Priest: You know what this is. It's too obvious to forget about here.
Divine Crusader: Charisma based fast-progression divine caster. Limited list(VERY), but good for SADing a build. USE WITH SUBLIME CHORD OR SORCERER, OR FORGET IT!

Builds/Resources:

In an apparent attempt to make me look totally incompetent(), TDC has provided this list, as well:

Other Guides

This guide covers a "bare bones" approach to dual-classing. Here are some more to help you out in spell choices!

Dictuum Mortem's Handbooks: All of them?

Treantmonk's Guide to Being GOD

A very tongue-in-cheek look at 3.5 wizard casting with handy links to other guides. Old, yes, but still useful. He later did works on the various schools in regards to specializing and what to drop/take in spells at each level.

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Abjuration

Echodork on Conjuration

Treantmonk on Conjuration

Tsuyoshi's Guide to Divination - Same time frame as Treantmonk's first works, but not done by Treantmonk himself.

Beguiler Handbook, mainly for Enchantment and Illusion spells

Treantmonk on Wizard Evocation Spells

Dread Necromancer's Handbook, for Necromancy spells - circa 2009
General Necromancy Handbook - circa 2006

CantripN's Old Guide to Transmutation Spells - Circa 2008

I'd link to stuff from Brilliantgameologists, but they are in the process of moving boards.

New forum is here, though Brilliantgameologist's Newest? Forum

Tyndmyr gave us a very nice and mostly complete list

Dual Progression Classes:
Mystic Theurge(DMG): Arcane/Divine
Arcane Hierophant(RoW): Arcane/Divine,Wildshape tastiness
Folchuran Lyricist: Arcane/Divine
Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
Yathrinshee(PgF): Arcane/Divine. 6/6 prog in 9 lev.
True Necromancer(LM): Arcane/Divine.

Accelerated Progression Classes:
Ur-Priest(BoVD): Become a cleric in ten levels.
Sublime Chord(CA): Go from 3rd level arcane to maxed in ten levels.
Beholder Mage(LoM):Full wizard or sorc casting in 10 levels. Race must be a true beholder.
Divine Crusader(CM): Divine spellcasting in ten levels for one domain only.
Apostle of Peace(BoED): Divine spellcasting in ten levels. Requires all the vows, though.
Nar Demonbinder

For reference, Apostle of Peace is really terrible, IMO.
Runescarred berserkers are worth mentioning, but don't technically cast, so they don't work in theurges.

Feel free to share more

Builds

Illumian
Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Dweomerkeeper 4/Mystic Theurge +7/Dweomerkeeper +4
Using the 9th level spells trick and alternative Source Spell. You cast as a level 19 Wizard, and level 11 wizard(Unless you're allowed to change caster progression part-way through, in which case Wizard 17 Cleric 13), but you still have 9th-level cleric spells.

Bard 1/Druid 9/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9
Not as much fun, but Wildshape and double nines are nice. Probably more optimal ways of doing it, but eh.

Bard 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Never actually crunched this one out, but seems pretty good:
Bard 1/Druid 5/Arcane Heirophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 1/Arcane Heirophant 6/FL+2

Gives you 11th level Wildshaping, 18th level Druid casting, and 10th level Sublime Chord casting. Pretty good, overall.

More better thought out builds should be up by this afternoon:

Three very elegant and very nice builds.

Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Divine Crusader 2/Sublime Chord 1/MT 8 will get you dual 9s, Cha-SAD.

- Bard 7 gets you the +5 BAB and the martial weapon (rapier) needed for Abjurant Champion
- AC 2 gets you to +7 BAB, which you need for DC
- You qualify for Sublime Chord at 10, but you need another DC level to get into MT
- MT 8 advances DC casting to 10 and SC casting to 9, resulting in dual 9s.

Bard1/FavoredSoul9/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge9
With the initiate of Milil gives you good Inspire Courage and such, and Southern Magician takes care of qualifications.

Neraph
Charisma Caster 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 1/Divine Crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Abjurant Champion +2
Using the Neraph's martial weapon proficiency to qualify for Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion, and uses Versatile Caster(Combined with a bloodline for something like Sorcerer) for early entry.

Feel free to post more.

And here's a build using True Necromancer that doesn't absolutely suck. I am quite impressed

True Necromancer Theurge

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Wizard/1 Cleric/3 MT/10 TN/6

Arcane:16 (8th level spells)
Divine: 17 (9th level spells)

Prerequisites:
Rebuke Undead
Death Domain
Any non-good
Knowledge Arcane/Religion 6 @ 4th level then 8 at 14th level
Spell Focus (Necromancy) @ 15th level

Easy to fulfill but damn near annoying to find a god/demon lord/archdevil that doesn't suck whom gives the Death Domain... Most would just craft there own domain but me? Nah i'm a classic man...

I recommend Divine Defiance (Sacrifice turnings/rebukes to counter spells as an immediate action? Oh god yes!

Dirty/questionable tricks:

Using the Cloistered Cleric lore-thingy to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist
Using Shape Souldmeld: Impulse Boots/Bind lesser Chakra to qualify for Fochlucan lyrist.
Using the 9th level spell trick for all the domain slots, and for prepping stuff like Dictum early, and being able to abandon cleric safely.
You actually don't need a level of Binder for Anima Mage. You just take the bindy-feat thingy and Anima Mage gives you levels by itself. Also, improved Binding gives you Zceryll.
Kobold Shenanigans for early entry.

[Pilo]

Too bad you forgot one of the best theurge: Arcane hierophant (Race of the wild) + his guide : http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...phant_Examined

[Eldan]

Tangent:
Do you people really pronounce Theurge so it rhymes with "urge"? I usually pronounce it Greek-ish.

[Heliomance]

What's so good about Alternative Spell Source?

[Little Brother]

Tangent:
Do you people really pronounce Theurge so it rhymes with "urge"? I usually pronounce it Greek-ish.

I do, as do the people at the Dragon Magazine(See Dragon 325).

And, pilo, don't have Races of the Wild on me right now. I'll update it soon.

From what I can remember off the top of my head, a good build is something like Druid 5/Bard 1/Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9.

[limejuicepowder]

I didn't read the full guide but one quick recommendation: change the yellow font before someone's eyes fall out of their head.

[JadePhoenix]

First of all - fix the title. It's supposed to be 'the urge to theurge', I believe.
Second, your formatting is awful. Specially that yellow font. Ugh.
Third, you mention 'you are a wizard'. Why? Are only wizards allowed to theurge?
Fourth, you mention a penalty to Wisdom in Archivist builds. But Archivists need both Int and Wis to cast spells.
Fifth, your guide is very basic and yet you mention alternative spell source, highly cheesed out, like it's something everyone uses. That won't fly in every table. In fact, it won't fly in most tables.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

From what I can remember off the top of my head, a good build is something like Druid 5/Bard 1/Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9.

Where are you getting Evasion?

[Eldan]

There are a few suggested entries for the Lyrist. One is the simple,but not very good Bard/Rogue/Druid, but I'd avoid that. There are a few other ways to gain evasion: technically a ring of evasion qualifies, but the DM might veto that. There is a soulmeld (Impulse boots)which gives you evasion, though you need two feats, one to open a chakra as well. Finally, there's a few prestige classes that grant evasion, though few of these seem really worth it. There's four levels of Combat Medic, from the top of my head, and then a few rogueish classes that don't really offer any advantages. And the Shadow Template, which is probably worth it if you can get buy-off.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I've got to say, I'm hoping the "Work In Progress" aspect of this guide means there's a lot more detail to come. You've only mentioned a small number of the classes that can be used in a Theurge build (I'm personally a fan of a Sorcerer based build, which you haven't mentioned at all.)

Tangent:
Do you people really pronounce Theurge so it rhymes with "urge"? I usually pronounce it Greek-ish.

Trying to think of other ways to pronounce "Theurge" made me realize that "Mystic: The Urge" sounds very much like a cutrate World of Darkness knockoff. I like it, for some reason.

[Tyndmyr]

You'll probably want my theurge list.

It may not be entirely complete, but the thread itself should list basically all the theurge options.

[Little Brother]

I didn't read the full guide but one quick recommendation: change the yellow font before someone's eyes fall out of their head.

Will do.

First of all - fix the title. It's supposed to be 'the urge to theurge', I believe.

Second, your formatting is awful. Specially that yellow font. Ugh.

Suggestions, then?

Third, you mention 'you are a wizard'. Why? Are only wizards allowed to theurge?

Two reasons: One, it is more of a role than a class, and two, they are the best. Yes, you can go Sorcerer/Favored Soul, but it is typically less efficient than Cleric/Wizard.

Fourth, you mention a penalty to Wisdom in Archivist builds. But Archivists need both Int and Wis to cast spells.

No, I referenced a bonus to Charisma and some SLAs in a Sublime Chord build. Difference. Secondly, they don't need wisdom except for bonus spells. Stick a 10 in there and you can forget about it.

Fifth, your guide is very basic and yet you mention alternative spell source, highly cheesed out, like it's something everyone uses. That won't fly in every table. In fact, it won't fly in most tables.

Two things here, too: You appear to have an odd definition of cheese. You are saying losing caster levels for an expanded spell list is cheese. Every theurge that can should use it. It is simply the best option. A handbook doesn't care if your DM won't allow DMM, Uncanny Forethought, or even Scribe Scroll. The job of a handbook is to explain how to make a good, in my case, theurge.

Where are you getting Evasion?

Eldan said it all

There are a few suggested entries for the Lyrist. One is the simple,but not very good Bard/Rogue/Druid, but I'd avoid that. There are a few other ways to gain evasion: technically a ring of evasion qualifies, but the DM might veto that. There is a soulmeld (Impulse boots)which gives you evasion, though you need two feats, one to open a chakra as well. Finally, there's a few prestige classes that grant evasion, though few of these seem really worth it. There's four levels of Combat Medic, from the top of my head, and then a few rogueish classes that don't really offer any advantages. And the Shadow Template, which is probably worth it if you can get buy-off.

I've got to say, I'm hoping the "Work In Progress" aspect of this guide means there's a lot more detail to come. You've only mentioned a small number of the classes that can be used in a Theurge build (I'm personally a fan of a Sorcerer based build, which you haven't mentioned at all.)

Yes, there are some coming, though mostly Sublime Chords make better theurges.

Trying to think of other ways to pronounce "Theurge" made me realize that "Mystic: The Urge" sounds very much like a cutrate World of Darkness knockoff. I like it, for some reason.

Heh. You're right.

You'll probably want my theurge list.

It may not be entirely complete, but the thread itself should list basically all the theurge options.

Sweet, thanks. Will add.

Also, I'm putting up a couple more builds. If anyone else has any, feel free to add them.

[darksolitaire]

That list seems to be missing Sapphire Hierarch (Cleric/Incanum), Eldritch Disciple (Invoker/Cleric), Green Whisperer (Bard/Druid, 5 levels) and Mind Mage (Arcane/Psionic). The two latter come from the Dragon Magazine.

As for accelerated casting, Nar Demonbinder and even Knight if the Weave could be listed for the sake of completeness.

Edit: doh, that list was edited in '09....nevermind.

[Psyren]

Here are some more:

Soulcaster (Meldshaping/Arcane, MoI pg. 142)
Soul Manifester (Meldshaping/Psionics, Mind's Eye
Noctumancer (Mysteries/Arcane, ToM pg. 125)
Anima Mage (Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Psi, ToM pg. 50)
Tenebrous Apostate (Binding/Divine, ToM pg. 63)


You may also want a special section on Theurge Traps - classes that look like Theurges but really aren't. (i.e. they require two base classes but only progress one.) These classes do, however, get pretty nice in gestalt. Some of these include:

Geomancer (Divine/Arcane, only advances one)
Brimstone Speaker (Divine/Truenaming, but does not advance utterances)
Fiendbinder (Arcane/Truenaming, does not advance utterances)

[Little Brother]

Here are some more:

Soulcaster (Meldshaping/Arcane, MoI pg. 142)
Soul Manifester (Meldshaping/Psionics, Mind's Eye
Noctumancer (Mysteries/Arcane, ToM pg. 125)
Anima Mage (Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Psi, ToM pg. 50)
Tenebrous Apostate (Binding/Divine, ToM pg. 63)


You may also want a special section on Theurge Traps - classes that look like Theurges but really aren't. (i.e. they require two base classes but only progress one.) These classes do, however, get pretty nice in gestalt. Some of these include:

Geomancer (Divine/Arcane, only advances one)
Brimstone Speaker (Divine/Truenaming, but does not advance utterances)
Fiendbinder (Arcane/Truenaming, does not advance utterances)

I was mostly just doing Arcane/Divine, but I could do stuff for others. Will be up in a moment. But the Theurge trap section is important, I can't believe I didn't think of it. Thanks!

[dextercorvia]

In my Neraph build, you should also mention that you need Versatile Spellcaster to get into Eldritch Knight after only 4 levels of Sorcerer or Bard.

[JadePhoenix]

Suggestions, then?

Bolding helps. Spacing as well. Get your titles in different sizes. Spread the text out a bit more.

Two reasons: One, it is more of a role than a class, and two, they are the best. Yes, you can go Sorcerer/Favored Soul, but it is typically less efficient than Cleric/Wizard.

Well, you were not talking about the role, you were talking about the class. You specifically mentioned an Int score.
You may focus on 'the best' options if you want, but seriously, you don't need a handbook for those. A wizard is powerful enough without it and if someone really wanted the most powerful... they wouldn't be playing a theurge for starters. By restricting your handbook to wizards, you're simply restricting your audience.
Also, it's not just Sorcerer/Favored Soul. How about Mystic Ranger/Suel Arcanamach, for starters? Or Dread Necromancer/Cleric (maybe with Dynamic Priest)? Or Beguiler/Archivist? There are plenty of theurge options, even if you restrict yourself to arcane/divine, that are not based on Wizard and Sorcerer.

No, I referenced a bonus to Charisma and some SLAs in a Sublime Chord build. Difference. Secondly, they don't need wisdom except for bonus spells. Stick a 10 in there and you can forget about it.

I'll concede your point here, though I still don't think it's worth it.

Two things here, too: You appear to have an odd definition of cheese. You are saying losing caster levels for an expanded spell list is cheese. Every theurge that can should use it. It is simply the best option. A handbook doesn't care if your DM won't allow DMM, Uncanny Forethought, or even Scribe Scroll. The job of a handbook is to explain how to make a good, in my case, theurge.

My opinion is that a handbook should care about this. The best handbooks only leave the most crazy stuff apart - call it a 'cheese factory' or something like that.

[Little Brother]

Bolding helps. Spacing as well. Get your titles in different sizes. Spread the text out a bit more.

I'll get on it, then.

Well, you were not talking about the role, you were talking about the class. You specifically mentioned an Int score.

I said "You are a WIZARD" on the strength score. As in, why does a caster have strength?

And for intelligence: Wizards and Archivists both need it, plus you will need it if you want into Fochlucan Lyrist.

You may focus on 'the best' options if you want, but seriously, you don't need a handbook for those. A wizard is powerful enough without it and if someone really wanted the most powerful... they wouldn't be playing a theurge for starters. By restricting your handbook to wizards, you're simply restricting your audience.

Theurges are powerful. What is the most powerful mechanic in the game? Spells. Having access to more spells(As in known, not slots) is more powerful

Also, it's not just Sorcerer/Favored Soul. How about Mystic Ranger/Suel Arcanamach, for starters?

Both stop progressing at 10th level, a Suel Arcanamach requires BAB six, so are you saying go Mystic Ranger six/Suel Arcanamach 1 or two/Mystic Theurge 4? Or waste more levels? It's so bad I don't even know where to start. It's like taking Mystic Ranger beyond 10th level.

an Or Dread Necromancer/Cleric (maybe with Dynamic Priest)?

Because there is no synergy there whatsoever. You give up a lot to be a theurge, but you get next to nothing from that, so it's a bad deal. Why bother?

Or Beguiler/Archivist?

Because the Archivist already has almost all of its spells, and because Nar Demonbinder is a better option. A beguiler is a fine class, but it would drag down the Archivist part.

There are plenty of theurge options, even if you restrict yourself to arcane/divine, that are not based on Wizard and Sorcerer.

I agree. Favored Soul/Sublime Chord, Favored Soul/Nar Demonbinder, Ur-Priest/Nar Demonbinder, Cleric/Nar Demonbinder, Druid/Nar Demonbinder, Wizard/Ur-Priest, Wizard/Druid, Wizard/Cleric, Wizard/Archivist, Sublime Chord/Divine Crusader(Which I just remembered I need to do an entry on), and I guess you could shove sorcerer into the wizard parts, badly.

I'll concede your point here, though I still don't think it's worth it.

The point of a theurge is to have spell-slots out the rear. With Arcane Preparation/Alternate Source Spell, you don't even care anymore.

My opinion is that a handbook should care about this. The best handbooks only leave the most crazy stuff apart - call it a 'cheese factory' or something like that.

Not true at all. This is a handbook for optimization. If you want to run some gimped build, I will do nothing to stop you, but you really have no reason to be reading a guide.

[JadePhoenix]

I'll get on it, then.
I said "You are a WIZARD" on the strength score. As in, why does a caster have strength?

For plenty of reasons, actually, but that's beside the point. Wizard =/= caster. Being a theurge does not mean you can't be a gish.

And for intelligence: Wizards and Archivists both need it, plus you will need it if you want into Fochlucan Lyrist.

Mainly what I meant is that a 'stats' part when so many classes are available is pointless.

Theurges are powerful. What is the most powerful mechanic in the game? Spells. Having access to more spells(As in known, not slots) is more powerful

And it's still less powerful than getting spells earlier. You are two whole levels behind when building a theurge, unless you go hardcore into cheese that disputable by RAW and not 100% likely to be accepted in most games.

Both stop progressing at 10th level, a Suel Arcanamach requires BAB six, so are you saying go Mystic Ranger six/Suel Arcanamach 1 or two/Mystic Theurge 4? Or waste more levels? It's so bad I don't even know where to start. It's like taking Mystic Ranger beyond 10th level.

So that's why that combination needs space in a handbook, because it's hard to pull out. Did I make my point clear? You're narrowing down your handbook for, well, no good reason, actually.

Because there is no synergy there whatsoever. You give up a lot to be a theurge, but you get next to nothing from that, so it's a bad deal. Why bother? Because the Archivist already has almost all of its spells, and because Nar Demonbinder is a better option. A beguiler is a fine class, but it would drag down the Archivist part.

So point it out in the handbook. Explain when each combination is bad and why. And... Beguiler would drag down the Archivist? Sorry, are you joking or something?

I agree. Favored Soul/Sublime Chord, Favored Soul/Nar Demonbinder, Ur-Priest/Nar Demonbinder, Cleric/Nar Demonbinder, Druid/Nar Demonbinder, Wizard/Ur-Priest, Wizard/Druid, Wizard/Cleric, Wizard/Archivist, Sublime Chord/Divine Crusader(Which I just remembered I need to do an entry on), and I guess you could shove sorcerer into the wizard parts, badly.
The point of a theurge is to have spell-slots out the rear. With Arcane Preparation/Alternate Source Spell, you don't even care anymore.

So you did listen to something. That's a start.

Not true at all. This is a handbook for optimization. If you want to run some gimped build, I will do nothing to stop you, but you really have no reason to be reading a guide.

I think you're mistaken. People read handbooks when they are building actual characters for actual games. All-holds-barred optimization as a thought experiment is fun and all, but that's a) not the reason people do handbooks and b) pointless since Khan found out the Pun-Pun trick

[Aegis013]

Surprisingly, nobody has suggested Domain Wizard ACF for Wizard. It's really good. Especially in conjunction with Elven Wizard 1 sublevel (mentioned in the Handbook) for Generalist Specialization.

[Little Brother]

For plenty of reasons, actually, but that's beside the point. Wizard =/= caster. Being a theurge does not mean you can't be a gish.

D4 hitdice, worst BAB, no armor, makings of a great gish, right? Especially since you're already so MAD.

And it's still less powerful than getting spells earlier. You are two whole levels behind when building a theurge, unless you go hardcore into cheese that disputable by RAW and not 100% likely to be accepted in most games.

You mean one level, and no. Heighten makes a spell a higher level, period. There is no way to argue this. Nothing questionable.

So that's why that combination needs space in a handbook, because it's hard to pull out. Did I make my point clear? You're narrowing down your handbook for, well, no good reason, actually.

For a very good reason: It's a headache to expand it for options that are unoptimized, and thus defeat the purpose of the guide.

So point it out in the handbook. Explain when each combination is bad and why. And... Beguiler would drag down the Archivist? Sorry, are you joking or something?

Hmmm, okay. I Will go write another section it.

And it drags it down because you're giving up a level, class features, and prestige options for something you already have.

So you did listen to something. That's a start.

And it doesn't change the fact that sorcerers are the worst you can be without tacking on something completely superfluous.

I think you're mistaken. People read handbooks when they are building actual characters for actual games. All-holds-barred optimization as a thought experiment is fun and all, but that's a) not the reason people do handbooks and b) pointless since Khan found out the Pun-Pun trick

And if I was talking about no-holds barred, I'd be telling people to go CC1/Ardent 4(Practiced manifester)/Thrallherd 1 with the Envy domain, max knowledge religion, and go sacrifice a large village to wish for a Ring of Three Wishes, or CC5/Dweomerkeeper 4 with the 9th level spells trick to get a free(Su) wish, for said ring. I'm not. This is light-weight stuff, unless your idea of a wizard is one of them throwing around fireballs instead of using good spells, Wilders NOT being educated, and monks being relevant.

And I will include the domain wizard in there. I thought it was kinda implied with generalist.

[JadePhoenix]

plenty of stuff

OK, man. We obviously don't agree on what a handbook is supposed to be or even about how optimization should be used as a tool. I'm done here. Hope you do manage to get a good handbook out of all this, though.

[Gnaeus]

I do not recommend using any of the advice in this guide, unless you like getting books thrown at your head by the DM. Every single thing on it should be under the dirty/questionable tricks subheading.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Eldan said it all

There are a few suggested entries for the Lyrist. One is the simple,but not very good Bard/Rogue/Druid, but I'd avoid that. There are a few other ways to gain evasion: technically a ring of evasion qualifies, but the DM might veto that.

Evasion
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, jump; Price 25,000 gp.

It isn't a matter of the DM "vetoing" it. It does not work per RAW. The ring does not grant you Evasion, as a class feature or otherwise; it allows you to "avoid damage as if you had evasion". That's like trying to get in through Divine Oracle 2.

Impulse Boots work, though. That's clever.

[Geigan]

You really need to remember to point out books and page numbers for stuff. People come to handbooks to learn how to play something and if you're pointing out these tricks from various books without actually telling them the books(or even better the page numbers), they'll probably skip right over your handbook. Also there is another handbook on Mystic Theurges here. It has some good tricks and could help with writing your own handbook.

On the subject of tricks and such for getting into Mystic Theurge and other PrCs early, you'd best lay them out explicitly so players may lay them out to their DM in turn. If someone showed up to my table with some bit of RAW tomfoolery and couldn't even explain to me how it worked without having me google it, you can bet I'm not going to let him do it if I have to be the one to figure out how it works. Early entry tricks are shenanigans. There's no getting around that even if they're RAW or not. I like shenanigans at my table and have brought said shenanigans myself sometimes. But using these sorts of tricks will always get you're character a looking over from the DM before you get to use it and it would be helpful if you can actually explain it properly to the DM before he approves it or disapproves it.

All that said I wanted to mention the Versatile Spellcaster+heighten trick for spontaneous theurges which as always has it's contentiousness RAW-wise. The only truly SAD spontaneous theurge would be a sorcerer/shugenja off the top of my head, but I only know that because that's the one I've been planning on playing in my next campaign.

The build went something like:
Sorc2/Shugenja1/Mystic TheurgeX/Arcane HierophantX/???/profit!
probably a dip of sacred exorcist for turn undead into DMM.

Bamboo spirit folk(OA) lets you get into Arcane Hierophant anyway you want, and with the sorcerer ACF from UA you can get a pretty decent little Animal Companion after you take all the levels in Hierophant. Requires at least a 12 int to keep up with skill prereqs here or there but that shouldn't be that big a deal since you're SAD for everything else. I was wondering for that straight cleric/wizard theurge, how you managed to get in at level 3 considering you need 6 ranks in both know(arcana&religion) before you can go into it. I know there are a few tricks for it but you don't specify any particular one, or if you are you aren't really explaining it.

[Heliomance]

Two things here, too: You appear to have an odd definition of cheese. You are saying losing caster levels for an expanded spell list is cheese. Every theurge that can should use it. It is simply the best option. A handbook doesn't care if your DM won't allow DMM, Uncanny Forethought, or even Scribe Scroll. The job of a handbook is to explain how to make a good, in my case, theurge.

Typically, the people who gain the most value from handbooks are optimisation novices and people picking up a class for the first time who want to get a good handle on the sort of thing that works and doesn't. Handbooks aren't written for the hardcore optimisers that know every rulebook by heart. At most, that crowd will use them as a starting point to point them towards the right books to inspect.

Handbooks should not include anything controversial in the main body. Cheese is fine as a subsection, clearly labelled, but should not be something given to players as something to rely on being allowed. Dragon magazine content is similarly not something to say "you need this" about - Dragon is so widely banned, that you should only put it in as "If you have access to Dragon, this is useful. This is what it does, and why you want it."

Yes, a Theurge without early entry tricks is weak (relatively speaking - they're still way better than a non-caster). But ANY early entry trick is controversial. It doesn't matter how well-supported it is by RAW, if it lets you get into the class before the designers intended you to, it's questionable and will get shot down by probably the majority of DMs. Not all, certainly. But personally, I enjoy optimisation, I enjoy powerful characters, and I have the most permissive attitude of any DM in my gaming society, and if someone came to me wanting to play a character using early entry tricks I would inspect it VERY carefully. For a theurge type I'd PROBABLY let it slide, depending on how far they'd taken it, but it would certainly earn them an awful lot of scrutiny and an evaluation of how much I trust them as a player. It's not something to be assumed.

[Psyren]

It isn't a matter of the DM "vetoing" it. It does not work per RAW. The ring does not grant you Evasion, as a class feature or otherwise; it allows you to "avoid damage as if you had evasion". That's like trying to get in through Divine Oracle 2.

Impulse Boots work, though. That's clever.

Gotta love Incarnum

Yes, a Theurge without early entry tricks is weak (relatively speaking - they're still way better than a non-caster). But ANY early entry trick is controversial. It doesn't matter how well-supported it is by RAW, if it lets you get into the class before the designers intended you to, it's questionable and will get shot down by probably the majority of DMs.

1) The designers' intent is not the gold standard you make it out to be. They also "intended" for monks not to be able to move and flurry, or for clerics and druids to replace the fighter with a single spell and a single class feature respectively. So just because they may have intended something, doesn't make it reasonable or worth listening to. You also can't prove that these techniques were not intended to allow early entry anyway.

2) What "the majority of DMs" would do is something that we have no way of knowing without polling the boards.