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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    I have to agree - it really is just one specific build with a handbook disguise. Perhaps you could discuss the merits of alternate options instead of dismissing them immediately?

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Not a bad effort for a first handbook, but I feel it needs a lot more explanations of why what is good is good etc. A handbook generally needs to assume it's reader is not that familiar with traditional op-tricks, and is reading the handbook for neophyte advice. This handbook seems to take a few shortcuts in assuming the readers prior knowledge, and seems to contain a fair bit of personal bias in regards to what is worthwhile and what isn't.

    But generally, yes, quite a useful handbook.
    Can you give any specifics on what to change?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I have to agree - it really is just one specific build with a handbook disguise. Perhaps you could discuss the merits of alternate options instead of dismissing them immediately?
    Explain. I have builds using Druid, Archivist, Cleric, Favored Soul, and even Divine Crusader, as well as builds using many Arcane classes. I am just dismissing builds that are terrible at best, with reasons covered in the OP. Dread Necro, Beguiler, and Warmage are terrible, and if you don't have double 9s(Or 9/8 with Nar Demonbinder), you shouldn't be building a Theurge. You'd be better off with class features unless you're using the abilities of both classes to the fullest without overlap, which is why Cleric/DN sucks so hard, and Archivist/Beguiler is the least bad(While still downright awful) Warmage-esque theurge.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    And then defeating the point of a theurge
    er.. how does it defeat the point of a Theurge - the class that progresses 2 different spellcasting lines. Being equally capable at doing both control and healing if you so choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    if you don't have double 9s(Or 9/8 with Nar Demonbinder), you shouldn't be building a Theurge.
    That is one very limited way to look at a character and what classes make it up or what it does.
    Much more important is how it works for the person playing and max level spells are just a small part of that, not the whole point.
    Last edited by Leon; 2011-12-29 at 09:30 AM.
    Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    Just play the character you want to play. Don't feel the need to squeeze every point out of the build.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    What do you see as the purpose of a Theurge?
    Dex

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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
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    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
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    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    The Handbook Handbook has been mentioned, which is solid. You should also cite other handbooks. Don't just say "You are batman!" without at least linking to either the now very old "Batman Guide" or one of treantmonk's various, newer "GOD" handbooks. It's a minor thing, but damned if it doesn't help for just various "I wonder how I could play X..." type posts that happen. I mean, Monkday is a tried and true tradition around here, but handbooks are just go-to guides for information.

    So far, your organization is, well, wonky. "Theurge" is such a broad category, so it can be difficult. I'd organize things first by base classes and then prestige classes. I'd also work first from a core+completes set-up to a then broader (read, this one Dragon magazine, that one Faerun book, et al.) set-up.

    Don't try to force your normal optimization comfort level down people's throats. Throwing out things like "action economy" can be weird and hard to parse without a bit of foreknowledge, so giving too much info on things helps. We have a lot of jargon in the Playground, so being clear in something that is supposed to be a guide is a must.

    Three-five itself has been out of print for a while, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every poster will have every book. Part of making a handbook is going "Well, here are a bunch of options, my opinions on them, and things you can do given only X and Y." Past Theurge handbooks refer to "early entry tricks" as such because not everyone likes Precious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell or whatever else have you. It can vary a lot by group to group and DM to DM.

    A rough skeleton I would use follows
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    Base class choices, mention "big" synergies like wizard/archivist, sorcerer/binder, wizard/druid (with Arcane Heirophant [Races of the Wild]), whatever else you got. This place will probably be clogged, simply because of how you can mix and match.

    (Right now, I think the base class section needs the most work. I mean, not everyone wants to play tier null rocket tag.)

    Prestige class choices
    "What do I do after Mystic Theurge?"
    "The Warlock and what else: Do you want to run on vegetable oil when your gas runs dry?"
    "Binders: Like Warlocks, but different"

    (I can go on here, but this should just be about covering basics and referring to other guides to help people out.)

    Feats
    (Just list "good" combos. I'm a fan of the Dragonlance feat that changes bonus spells to INT for Divine Casters in so far as archivist/wizard goes. This is also probably the place where you tag things as "dirty tricks," like Anima Mage without any actual binder levels, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chorde shenanigans)

    Races
    (Yeah, Kobolds rock here given all the resources, but a lot of those probably won't fly at certain tables. Illumians deserve mention, too. Humans are always solid. Stranger races for oddball entry requirements are also nice, but mark those as "tricks, too)

    Money and items
    (Getting gear that synergies your two (or more) casting classes is a must. This guide shouldn't be exhaustive, but mention the obvious ones like +X to casting stats is a good step)


    Feel free to PM me for contact info, Little Brother. With the recent Theurge-day storm, I feel like this handbook is a great idea.

    For insanity, look at this. Probably don't mention it, though. It hurts to keep track of that much stuff.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    er.. how does it defeat the point of a Theurge - the class that progresses 2 different spellcasting lines. Being equally capable at doing both control and healing if you so choose.

    That is one very limited way to look at a character and what classes make it up or what it does.
    Much more important is how it works for the person playing and max level spells are just a small part of that, not the whole point.
    Then you are wasting the power of a theurge. As I said, you can make a swift hunter that doesn't move. It is exactly the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    What do you see as the purpose of a Theurge?
    In a low-OP game? To throw enough spells at something and otherwise mess around. In a high-OP game? To Batman with more spells and better buffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    The Handbook Handbook has been mentioned, which is solid. You should also cite other handbooks. Don't just say "You are batman!" without at least linking to either the now very old "Batman Guide" or one of treantmonk's various, newer "GOD" handbooks. It's a minor thing, but damned if it doesn't help for just various "I wonder how I could play X..." type posts that happen. I mean, Monkday is a tried and true tradition around here, but handbooks are just go-to guides for information.

    So far, your organization is, well, wonky. "Theurge" is such a broad category, so it can be difficult. I'd organize things first by base classes and then prestige classes. I'd also work first from a core+completes set-up to a then broader (read, this one Dragon magazine, that one Faerun book, et al.) set-up.

    Don't try to force your normal optimization comfort level down people's throats. Throwing out things like "action economy" can be weird and hard to parse without a bit of foreknowledge, so giving too much info on things helps. We have a lot of jargon in the Playground, so being clear in something that is supposed to be a guide is a must.

    Three-five itself has been out of print for a while, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every poster will have every book. Part of making a handbook is going "Well, here are a bunch of options, my opinions on them, and things you can do given only X and Y." Past Theurge handbooks refer to "early entry tricks" as such because not everyone likes Precious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell or whatever else have you. It can vary a lot by group to group and DM to DM.

    A rough skeleton I would use follows
    Spoiler
    Show

    Base class choices, mention "big" synergies like wizard/archivist, sorcerer/binder, wizard/druid (with Arcane Heirophant [Races of the Wild]), whatever else you got. This place will probably be clogged, simply because of how you can mix and match.

    (Right now, I think the base class section needs the most work. I mean, not everyone wants to play tier null rocket tag.)

    Prestige class choices
    "What do I do after Mystic Theurge?"
    "The Warlock and what else: Do you want to run on vegetable oil when your gas runs dry?"
    "Binders: Like Warlocks, but different"

    (I can go on here, but this should just be about covering basics and referring to other guides to help people out.)

    Feats
    (Just list "good" combos. I'm a fan of the Dragonlance feat that changes bonus spells to INT for Divine Casters in so far as archivist/wizard goes. This is also probably the place where you tag things as "dirty tricks," like Anima Mage without any actual binder levels, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chorde shenanigans)

    Races
    (Yeah, Kobolds rock here given all the resources, but a lot of those probably won't fly at certain tables. Illumians deserve mention, too. Humans are always solid. Stranger races for oddball entry requirements are also nice, but mark those as "tricks, too)

    Money and items
    (Getting gear that synergies your two (or more) casting classes is a must. This guide shouldn't be exhaustive, but mention the obvious ones like +X to casting stats is a good step)


    Feel free to PM me for contact info, Little Brother. With the recent Theurge-day storm, I feel like this handbook is a great idea.

    For insanity, look at this. Probably don't mention it, though. It hurts to keep track of that much stuff.
    Okay, I will start the update(Though it's approaching New Year's, so I got a lot of stuff to be doing today), so I will use this. Thanks.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Then you are wasting the power of a theurge. As I said, you can make a swift hunter that doesn't move. It is exactly the same thing.
    A Mobile hunter that doesn't move is not the same as a Dual Caster who can heal as one of its options.

    Nothing about casting a healing spell instead of a Control/Buff/Damage spell is any less powerful a option - a Cure spell in the right place is as powerful as any other spell.
    Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    Just play the character you want to play. Don't feel the need to squeeze every point out of the build.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    A Mobile hunter that doesn't move is not the same as a Dual Caster who can heal as one of its options.

    Nothing about casting a healing spell instead of a Control/Buff/Damage spell is any less powerful a option - a Cure spell in the right place is as powerful as any other spell.
    A cure spell is NEVER powerful. EVER. A Heal, maybe. But a CURE? No.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    In a low-OP game? To throw enough spells at something and otherwise mess around. In a high-OP game? To Batman with more spells and better buffs.
    I'm going to focus on the second half of this statement, since you are so interested in high-op alternatives.

    You can never build a theurge that can out batman a non-theurge Wizard based build at levels X through Y. X marks the time of your deviation from wizardly awesomeness minus any feats you spent on early entry (that would have been better invested by a more focused build). Y has a lower bound of 17 + #of non wizard casting levels.

    So, by choosing to batman with a theurge, you are making a suboptimal choice. This is not to say that it is badwrongfun, but you have lambasted several suggestions for being suboptimal.

    Those who are proposing a Heal/BFC theurge are actually making a more optimal choice for the role of band-aid dispenser. That is to say, if you have chosen this for your Role, this is one way to do that and have other good things to do in combat. Remember, someone devoted to healing is a popular archetype, and Mystic Theurge is one (of several) ways to do that without sacrificing all playability.

    You have attempted to answer the question, "Which classes combine best with Mystic Theurge?" But, to truly be a handbook, you have to answer the question, "Which roles benefit most (and least) from Mystic Theurge?"
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    It has potential, but you should tone down the forum slang, hunting me down and force-feeding me my own cat (I don't even have a cat. Those things can kill you!) and the general "teenager" tone.

    Also, saying things like: "See this build? x1/y9/x1/y01" and then going "there's probably a better way to do it, but whatever" makes me lose confidence in your guide. I read guides to find out the best way to do or get something. General ideas are what makes one seek a guide in the first place, but it has to be a source of refined and hard to come by information.

    Otherwise you're just making me go and ask on GITP for someone to optimize the build (instead of you doing it).

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    A cure spell is NEVER powerful. EVER. A Heal, maybe. But a CURE? No.
    Cure as in the the whole line of curative spells but even a basic Cure spell can change fight.
    Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    Just play the character you want to play. Don't feel the need to squeeze every point out of the build.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    Cure as in the the whole line of curative spells but even a basic Cure spell can change fight.
    No, it can't.

    And, Dex, you can out-Batman batman. Simply, you get more toys. What defines Batman? Toys. So what happens when you get every single one of his toys, and more? You're better.

    Furthermore, a bandaid dispenser is not a role. Using a cure when you could be throwing out a Glitterdust, a Grease, a Web, a Solid Fog, a Divine Power, an Animal's buff, or so on is idiotic at best. Any effective move like that is superior to a single move that gets nothing done, and heals about 1/2 to 1/4 of the enemies damage/round.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    No, it can't.

    And, Dex, you can out-Batman batman. Simply, you get more toys. What defines Batman? Toys. So what happens when you get every single one of his toys, and more? You're better.

    Furthermore, a bandaid dispenser is not a role. Using a cure when you could be throwing out a Glitterdust, a Grease, a Web, a Solid Fog, a Divine Power, an Animal's buff, or so on is idiotic at best. Any effective move like that is superior to a single move that gets nothing done, and heals about 1/2 to 1/4 of the enemies damage/round.
    You are misunderstanding the power curve with a batman character. Rather than argue with you, I propose a challenge: Give me your best Bat-Theurge and I will use every non theurgic element of your build to build a better Batman by removing the theurge.

    Also, the next time my buddy is bleeding out, I'll try a Grease spell -- hopefully that will stabilize him.
    Dex

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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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    Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    You are misunderstanding the power curve with a batman character. Rather than argue with you, I propose a challenge: Give me your best Bat-Theurge and I will use every non theurgic element of your build to build a better Batman by removing the theurge.

    Also, the next time my buddy is bleeding out, I'll try a Grease spell -- hopefully that will stabilize him.
    Well obviously you should have used incendiary slime instead, then set it on fire. Bam, all wounds instantly cauterized. Any remaining useless bits of flesh can be sold off as exotic barbecue to pay for the components to a true res or raise dead if the pansy didn't survive. Fire(and grease!) have solved everything once again! [/end violent non sequiter]
    Last edited by Geigan; 2011-12-30 at 05:34 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    You are misunderstanding the power curve with a batman character. Rather than argue with you, I propose a challenge: Give me your best Bat-Theurge and I will use every non theurgic element of your build to build a better Batman by removing the theurge.

    Also, the next time my buddy is bleeding out, I'll try a Grease spell -- hopefully that will stabilize him.
    You buddy's bleeding out? Okay, a cure would have done enough that he'd just have been shot straight back to negatives next round. A heal, maybe, but a cure? It's like a good cleric. You don't bother with healing until you get 6th level spells, and you DON'T NEED A BANDAID-dispenser. I thought everyone had gotten the memo.

    Do I need to stick this in the freaking OP or something?

    EDIT: And, yeah, I can make a Bat-Theurge out theurge any Batman.
    Last edited by Little Brother; 2011-12-30 at 09:44 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    You buddy's bleeding out? Okay, a cure would have done enough that he'd just have been shot straight back to negatives next round. A heal, maybe, but a cure? It's like a good cleric. You don't bother with healing until you get 6th level spells, and you DON'T NEED A BANDAID-dispenser. I thought everyone had gotten the memo.

    Do I need to stick this in the freaking OP or something?

    EDIT: And, yeah, I can make a Bat-Theurge out theurge any Batman.
    *sigh*

    You know, I actually played a healer once or twice. Not just a healer, a Healer, from Miniatures Hanbook. And you know what I found?

    I could effectively negate just about everything an enemy did in combat. I could heal as much damage as they could dish out in a turn. I could remove any status affliction they could apply. I could, in effect, retroactively deny them actions. I couldn't win the fight by myself... but the rest of the party could.

    I'm only trading action-for-action, and Wizards can usually do better, but in most fights PCs already have the collective action economy advantage, and one character trading action-for-action with the enemy tilts that even further - especially since, unlike most other methods of actually denying enemies actions, the enemy never has a chance to resist it because you're only targetting allies.

    A party doesn't need a walking bandaid box. There's plenty of ways to patch up between combats without one. But saying that healing and curative effects are useless in combat is a gross exaggeration, and one that suggests to me that you've never played with a healer who knew what they were doing.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    You buddy's bleeding out? Okay, a cure would have done enough that he'd just have been shot straight back to negatives next round. A heal, maybe, but a cure? It's like a good cleric. You don't bother with healing until you get 6th level spells, and you DON'T NEED A BANDAID-dispenser. I thought everyone had gotten the memo.

    Do I need to stick this in the freaking OP or something?

    EDIT: And, yeah, I can make a Bat-Theurge out theurge any Batman.
    You do know that not every round of game time is spent in combat right? That is the reason I would suggest a MT for someone who wants to play a healing archetype -- out of combat, without eating into their resources (much) for in combat effectiveness.

    Since you have accepted my challenge, is there someone to judge between our builds? I assume you have a high cheese tolerance, based on your handbook. I propose we draw the line a Pun Pun and infinite combos, but anything short of that is fair game. May I have a rough vision for your build so that I can prepare most mine before I see your full version? Just broad strokes like Wizard/Archivist, Arcane Hierophant, or Wizard/UrTheruge, etc.

    I suppose that since you are going the Theurge route, you would like this judged on Versatility as wells as Power. Is there anything else you want to be judged on?

    Flaws? Traits? Buy-off?
    Last edited by dextercorvia; 2011-12-30 at 11:04 PM.
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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    Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    I'm gonna need to do a little thinking. I'm gonna have Cleric or Ur-Priest on one side, I know that much. Thinking Wizard, but am undecided on that half, since I am not going with my softball build.

    Sure, flaws, traits, buy-off.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Here's an accurate description of everything in the OP.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2011-12-31 at 12:49 AM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    I'm gonna need to do a little thinking. I'm gonna have Cleric or Ur-Priest on one side, I know that much. Thinking Wizard, but am undecided on that half, since I am not going with my softball build.

    Sure, flaws, traits, buy-off.
    You should both get a DM to set the rules for this, and to make rulings on things that might be questionable. Then will this be a fight between the two of you? Or will you instead have the DM throw challenges at you and grade your ability to overcome it.

    Good luck finding a fair and impartial DM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    You should both get a DM to set the rules for this, and to make rulings on things that might be questionable. Then will this be a fight between the two of you? Or will you instead have the DM throw challenges at you and grade your ability to overcome it.

    Good luck finding a fair and impartial DM.
    I would prefer a panel of judges a la Iron Chef to evaluate the builds' effectiveness level by level. But, I would willingly participate in an arena match, or a same game test.

    Are you volunteering?
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    This is brilliant.
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    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    I would prefer a panel of judges a la Iron Chef to evaluate the builds' effectiveness level by level. But, I would willingly participate in an arena match, or a same game test.

    Are you volunteering?
    Aww hail no.
    I disagree with a lot of little brothers combos, so I'd probably reject them just because I can't follow his logic on what makes the tricks work.

    Never actually followed the Iron Chef threads, but that sounds like a good idea.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Aww hail no.
    I disagree with a lot of little brothers combos, so I'd probably reject them just because I can't follow his logic on what makes the tricks work.

    Never actually followed the Iron Chef threads, but that sounds like a good idea.
    This is why Handbook writing is an art. I like some of the "super awesome cool" combos that 3.X provides, but knowing where the limits are on being "okay" and being "broken" vary so much from person to person it can be hard to know what flies with which group/GM.

    Personally, I think the point of any and all Handbooks is to give advice. Say what "works" and what doesn't. Give "benchmarks" and explain why. List resources and try to rate them.

    In my edit, I moved "blasting" up from purple to red simply because while it is "inferior," it's still nice to have some sort of "nuke" on hand. Sometimes it's as simple as saying "I ready an action to cast Lesser Orb of Fire at the next enemy that tries to cast a spell." Other times you go into celerity cheese and use that spell to then cast that very same Orb. Either way, the idea is to stop an enemy caster from casting while the rest of your party goes to town on the enemies in their own way.

    Sometimes it's starting out as a wizard and then pretending to be a cleric via Ur-Priest cheese, but in a core-only or a more limited resource environment (Say, Core+Completes only), you just have to bite down on the bullet and accept being Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge X. Eventually, you do want to get to higher level spells.

    TL;DR: With Theurges, simply because they have sooooo many spells, it can be hard to figure out where "broken" is.
    Last edited by Thrice Dead Cat; 2011-12-31 at 04:37 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Could a Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Arcane Heriophant 10/Mystic Thuerge +3. have Arcane Heriophant use both it's castings to advance Mystic Theurge casting? I mean Arcane Heriophant uses +1 to a preexisting Arcane class to increase Mystic Theurge that it's casting increase increase wizard and druid 1 and you do the same with the divine casting so at 20th you would have: Wizard casting 27, Druid casting 27 and you can advance the epic Mystic Theurge.
    Thank you to SubLimePie for my wonderful kobold cleric/wizard avatar!

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    Could a Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Arcane Heriophant 10/Mystic Thuerge +3. have Arcane Heriophant use both it's castings to advance Mystic Theurge casting?
    ...no.

    Mystic Theurge does not have it's own casting that could be advanced in the first place. Also, you need two levels of MT to qualify for AH.
    That thing is no more terrible then I.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    A party doesn't need a walking bandaid box. There's plenty of ways to patch up between combats without one. But saying that healing and curative effects are useless in combat is a gross exaggeration, and one that suggests to me that you've never played with a healer who knew what they were doing.
    Zeal is correct. Sub-optimal as a party role does not mean useless. This is especially true of clerics (via converting to cures) or druids (via converting to SNA IV with ring of the beast to summon healing unicorns), who can fill their entire spell lists with situationally useful spells, knowing that if they meet Mystery Beast X, their Smite Beast X spell will be prepared, but if they don't, they can still contribute meaningfully to combat by converting the spell. Having a character whose job is in-combat healing is not optimized (although it could still be important for RP reasons). Having a character who has the ability to throw a cure spell if he needs to while retaining the rest of his arsenal of tricks is very optimized.

    This, of course, is the central theme to any batman caster. They can do anything that the situation calls for. Every time you say "X sucks, I don't need to be able to do that!", whether X is healing, blasting, Save or Die, or whatever, you lose part of the power that is a tier 1 caster, and you make Batman cry.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Zeal is correct. Sub-optimal as a party role does not mean useless. This is esThis, of course, is the central theme to any batman caster. They can do anything that the situation calls for. Every time you say "X sucks, I don't need to be able to do that!", whether X is healing, blasting, Save or Die, or whatever, you lose part of the power that is a tier 1 caster, and you make Batman cry.
    Geez, thanks! I never realized that pro wizards threw around Cure minor Wounds 24/7! And that Fireball was a good spell for them, rather than CC and such, like Solid Fog! I guess Solid Fog an Grease suck, cuz they aren't blasting, amirite?

    Seriously, no. Blasting is, and always will be weak. Healing is, and always will be weak. A batman has 10+ spontaneous slot, but he does NOT prepare(Or cast) Fireball. A Batman DOES. NOT. BLAST. You can play a blast-wizard or a healbot cleric, but it's on your head.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Geez, thanks! I never realized that pro wizards threw around Cure minor Wounds 24/7! And that Fireball was a good spell for them, rather than CC and such, like Solid Fog! I guess Solid Fog an Grease suck, cuz they aren't blasting, amirite?

    Seriously, no. Blasting is, and always will be weak. Healing is, and always will be weak. A batman has 10+ spontaneous slot, but he does NOT prepare(Or cast) Fireball. A Batman DOES. NOT. BLAST. You can play a blast-wizard or a healbot cleric, but it's on your head.
    What has a Cleric/Blaster mage done to you to evoke such wrath agaisnt those play styles?

    Blasting is a Tool, Batman is a Utility belt, Utility Belts carry tools thus a Batman can blast and still be a valid batman (a Theurge Batman has access to a very good quality First Aid Kit as well as the tool belt)

    The choices on what you can do with a Theurge are very large and varied, all the options work. Whether a player thinks them optimal or not is up to them but it does not make any choice less valid to another player.
    Last edited by Leon; 2011-12-31 at 09:05 PM.
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    Just play the character you want to play. Don't feel the need to squeeze every point out of the build.
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    {{scrubbed}}
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2012-01-01 at 09:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Geez, thanks! I never realized that pro wizards threw around Cure minor Wounds 24/7! And that Fireball was a good spell for them, rather than CC and such, like Solid Fog! I guess Solid Fog an Grease suck, cuz they aren't blasting, amirite?
    That depends. If you want to take out a group of enemies standing 700 feet away on a field which you previously doused in oil, Solid Fog and grease are suboptimal. Of course, in a typical fight, fireball is suboptimal. You know what is optimal? Crafting some goggles of the golden sun onto your face slot item, so that you can prep Solid Fog but still do the job when your party could use a fireball. Or just getting a scroll of fireball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Seriously, no. Blasting is, and always will be weak. Healing is, and always will be weak. A batman has 10+ spontaneous slot, but he does NOT prepare(Or cast) Fireball. A Batman DOES. NOT. BLAST. You can play a blast-wizard or a healbot cleric, but it's on your head.
    A wizard who preps 2 damage spells per day or a cleric that can convert to a heal is neither a blast-wizard nor a healbot. Its a guy with options. The guy with the most options is the guy who is most likely to have the correct option.

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