The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

[Essence_of_War]

It is, however, pretty freaking hard to make a straight monk (why isn't he a swordsage again?) useful alongside an stp erudite.

[Incanur]

It is, however, pretty freaking hard to make a straight monk (why isn't he a swordsage again?) useful alongside an stp erudite.

Monks make fantastic targets for buff spells. Just saying.

[Hecuba]

Gee, I never realized a class that gets worse as it leveled was a good thing. Maybe you should meet up with the guy who came up with Risen Martyr and the Mountblanc PrC.

Actually, if you look at fictional depictions of true-name style magic, that's probably something intended as a feature. I don't think it's good game design in the context of 3.5 as a whole, but to presume it's never something that is desirable is likely folly.

Because Mailmen do it WELL, an Evoker doesn't

Define "Well." If you treat mailman-level finesse as a minimum level of optimization, your guide will have a very limited audience and provide that small audience with very limited utility.

"Ways you can make your MT build more optimal" is a much more useful way to present a guide than "acceptably optimized build(s) you should use for MT." As an example, you may not be willing to play a MT with W3/C3 entry or similar, but that a build cannot be optimized within those constraints.

As an aside, I like what you've done with rewriting since the initial post: it comes off as much more distanced and objective.

Maybe when a player is not playing with a group, but against hypothetical numbers then yeah sure, but ultimately if playing with a group of people, especially ones friends, people aren't going to be trying to make somebody feel useless.

Having 4 people need to pull their punches to humor 1 person may be a more addressable problem than having 1 person who can't contribute, but it's still significant problem.

[sreservoir]

Monks make fantastic targets for buff spells. Just saying.

yeah, they can derive more absolute benefit from being buffed than most other classes!

[dextercorvia]

You mean the orbs of 4~ damage/CL? Yeah, that totally will do a decent amount of damage to something of the appropriate CR.
No, I have said nothing of the sort. Care to try again?

My mistake, I was remembering you saying:

No, people intentionally crippling their builds are chumps

Regarding your opinion on Orb of X, I find them to be better than most other options against someone in an AMF. I believe you said the following about a Theurge in another thread.

However, that said, there are very few problems that cannot be solved with enough fireballs. And you have enough

I like the new look of the first post. I have a zero early entry cheese optimized Theurge.

SavageBard5/UrPriest2/MysticTheurge3/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge5/X4

[Urpriest]

My mistake, I was remembering you saying:



Regarding your opinion on Orb of X, I find them to be better than most other options against someone in an AMF. I believe you said the following about a Theurge in another thread.



I like the new look of the first post. I have a zero early entry cheese optimized Theurge.

SavageBard5/UrPriest2/MysticTheurge3/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge5/X4

Not legal. You didn't have Sublime Chord prior to entering Mystic Theurge, so by its own casting text you can't use it to advance it.

[dextercorvia]

Not legal. You didn't have Sublime Chord prior to entering Mystic Theurge, so by its own casting text you can't use it to advance it.

Perhaps. I mentally insert the word level in there like it appears elsewhere, but you can wait for Mystic Theurge until after Sublime Chord, if necessary.

[herrhauptmann]

Not legal. You didn't have Sublime Chord prior to entering Mystic Theurge, so by its own casting text you can't use it to advance it.

Too many "it's," which PrC is invalidating the approach?
So then...

(Savage) Bard5/Urpriest3/Bard+2/SublimeChord2/Mystic Theurge 8

Could easily go bard7 then urpriest 2, but I figure getting a little bit of urpriest sooner is better than later.
Need 7 levels of bard to qualify for Sublime chord casting limits (or bard1/wiz5, or bard1/sorc6)
I choose sublime chord 2 for song of arcane power. By 11th level, you're looking at 14 ranks in perform. Easily a +6 charisma. And probably a masterwork instrument of some sort. With no effort, skill boosters, or feats, you're going to be getting a +4 CL on an 8 or better.
Nor does it seem to specify Sublime Chord casting only. So it'll boost even Urpriest casting.


Now that I look at it, it seems odd, you can enter sublime chord by level 7 (wiz5/bard1). So you'll hit SC2 when you're level 8. To use song of arcane power, you need 12 ranks in perform. Something you can't do for another level...

edit:
Bugger, how did it take me that long to type that up?
Fixed build.

[dextercorvia]

You need one more level before Sublime Chord to fit the skill requirements, but yeah, that's basically what I meant.

[Leon]

Absolutely false. A monk will never be able to keep up with a StP Erudite. EVER,

Why the fixation on "keeping up". A Class doesn't need to keep up it needs to work with the others in its team to achieve the goals they have. The Monk gets a lot of hate but it is just as playable as any Wizard is.

Then he sucked. Next.

Yet it was supposedly the best way to play that class according to what is widely believed on here and other places.

Because Mailmen do it WELL, an Evoker doesn't

If you apply the same level of optimization to a Evoker you will reach the similar results.

A toolkit full of oversized, old, rusty, out of date and falling apart tools? Yeah, no. It has almost none of the important toys. It is terrible.

Depends on what a Important Tool is - what is important to one player is not necessary the best for all players.

[Little Brother]

It is, however, pretty freaking hard to make a straight monk (why isn't he a swordsage again?) useful alongside an stp erudite.

You mean impossible if the Erudite does anything resembling competent.

My mistake, I was remembering you saying:

Yeah, crippling your build means you're a chump.This is different. Care to try again?

Regarding your opinion on Orb of X, I find them to be better than most other options against someone in an AMF. I believe you said the following about a Theurge in another thread.

Yeah, in jest, bro. If you need to pull out an old joke to try to make a poor point, you should really reanalyze your stance.

I like the new look of the first post. I have a zero early entry cheese optimized Theurge.

SavageBard5/UrPriest2/MysticTheurge3/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge5/X4

Taking Mystic Theurge before you get SC is a bad idea. A better build would be, assuming you start at high enough level, is druid 1/Bard 6/Ur-Priest 3/SC 1/Fochlucan Lyrist(If you have the skill points, otherwise just drop Druid and go MT afterwards).

Why the fixation on "keeping up". A Class doesn't need to keep up it needs to work with the others in its team to achieve the goals they have. The Monk gets a lot of hate but it is just as playable as any Wizard is.

Against CR-appropriate encounters? No. It isn't.

Yet it was supposedly the best way to play that class according to what is widely believed on here and other places.

So? Because its the best way doesn't mean he did it well. Difference. Try again.

If you apply the same level of optimization to a Evoker you will reach the similar results.

Not at all. You don't get the Sorcerer-only spells. Try again.

Depends on what a Important Tool is - what is important to one player is not necessary the best for all players.

Not true. Numbers never lie.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, crippling your build means you're a chump.This is different. Care to try again?

I was conceding the point, although since you are so argumentative, would you say that having less than a natural 18 in your primary stat is crippling your build?

Yeah, in jest, bro. If you need to pull out an old joke to try to make a poor point, you should really reanalyze your stance.

There was nothing that indicated sarcasm in that post, unlike many of these, bro. Cf. Poe's Law. You still haven't answered the quesion of how you plan to deal with something in an AMF or that has SR:Allofit.

Numbers never lie.

People do. All the time. To themselves. Especially about numbers.

[Little Brother]

I was conceding the point, although since you are so argumentative, would you say that having less than a natural 18 in your primary stat is crippling your build?

You have two casting stats, you could make a build that had 2 16s. Anything lower than that in PB is gimping.

There was nothing that indicated sarcasm in that post, unlike many of these, bro. Cf. Poe's Law. You still haven't answered the quesion of how you plan to deal with something in an AMF or that has SR:Allofit.

The ""

And simple: SR:No spells and things such as Solid Fog to control it. AMF has a range of 10 feet. 5' step or otherwise move, then celerity for your actions back. Timestop is pro for that. There are some SoDs or effective SoDs with SR:No, I think.

People do. All the time. To themselves. Especially about numbers.

Yeah, so? Numbers never lie. For a blast wizard is piss-terrible. The best tools are the best tools. Period.

[dextercorvia]

And simple: SR:No spells and things such as Solid Fog to control it. AMF has a range of 10 feet. 5' step or otherwise move, then celerity for your actions back. Timestop is pro for that. There are some SoDs or effective SoDs with SR:No, I think.

Sold Fog won't help against a Brute in an AMF. The aura will cut through it like a knife. Do you know what a SR:No spell that works in an AMF and is a Save or Suck? Orb of Fire. There may be others, and I would encourage you to find some that deal no damage, since you think that any spell that does direct damage is inferior to one that doesn't regardless of the circumstances.

[Little Brother]

Sold Fog won't help against a Brute in an AMF. The aura will cut through it like a knife. Do you know what a SR:No spell that works in an AMF and is a Save or Suck? Orb of Fire. There may be others, and I would encourage you to find some that deal no damage, since you think that any spell that does direct damage is inferior to one that doesn't regardless of the circumstances.

Brute?

And, no. Extraordinary Spell Aim, Invoke Magic, Martial Study: BY CROM!, or, yanno, any GOOD instantaneous Conjuration, like, say PLANE SHIFT, Wall of Stone them in, or exceptions, so you can Wall of Force/Prismatic Wall them in, hell, maybe, depending on your ruling, Forcecage them in. You can drop a Prismatic Sphere and tell them to suck it. I can think of plenty of ways to evade an AMF. Plus, you could be a cleric, and qualify for IoM, so laugh at AMFs regardless.

[dextercorvia]

Brute?

And, no. Extraordinary Spell Aim, Invoke Magic, Martial Study: BY CROM!, or, yanno, any GOOD instantaneous Conjuration, like, say PLANE SHIFT, Wall of Stone them in, or exceptions, so you can Wall of Force/Prismatic Wall them in, hell, maybe, depending on your ruling, Forcecage them in. You can drop a Prismatic Sphere and tell them to suck it. I can think of plenty of ways to evade an AMF. Plus, you could be a cleric, and qualify for IoM, so laugh at AMFs regardless.

Brute? -- Baddy, something that will hurt you, etc.

Extraordinary Spell Aim -- Only helps if you are the one who cast the AMF, I'm thinking of something like the Dwarven Knight that Curmudgeon is working on. Lives in his own AMF, and can make your life miserable with Ex abilities.

Invoke Magic -- Source?

CROM requires you to be in the AMF before you can spend a standard action to end it. I hope you are prepared to be in the bad place better than that.

Forcecage is too small to cast inside an AMF. AMF may not penetrate an existing one, but you won't be able to cast a new one.

Prismatic Sphere is Centered on you, so it is good for defense, but you can't leave them in one, unless you occupy their square while you cast it, and then move away.

Your various Wall Solutions are going to require multiple actions to set up.

Plane Shift is a touch spell, and you won't be able to cast it if you are in an AMF, so you will need at least 15ft of reach, or metamagic to pull this off.

Also, AMF is a 5th level spell. It would be reasonable to run into it beginning at 7th level (for an ECL+2 encounter). All of your solutions require feats or 5th and higher level spells (multiples of most of the 5ths), or you know, you can have a generally useful Orb of X spell prepared, and not spend significant build resources overcoming one particular kind of challenge.

Care to try again?

[enderlord99]

Numbers never lie. For a blast wizard is piss-terrible. The best tools are the best tools. Period.

Are you implying that D&D is competitive, and "everyone who matters" uses pun-pun whenever possible?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Are you implying that D&D is competitive, and "everyone who matters" uses pun-pun whenever possible?

It's fairly obvious that Little Brother prefers a higher level of optimization and is rather vocal about it. Personally, I like tricks like Precious Apprentice+Focused Specialist to get 3rd level spells with only one level of wizard.

It's part of the reason why I want to help with this handbook and added the bit with the asterisks on my edit of the first post. Some things will work at some places, but it is beyond the scope of this guide to say "Do this! Only do this!"

[Akal Saris]

I skipped the last 5 pages, but it should be noted that if allowed, Dragon Magazine 325, Pg. 60-63, is very useful to all sorts of theurges, due to the number of theurgic feats.

Alternative Source Spell, already mentioned in the guide, is the main one, but several others can be quite handy.

[DementedFellow]

I would also like to see how someone could build a spontaneous caster theurge.

Some people (like myself) can't be bothered with the whole "preparation" business. Any help for people like me?

[Little Brother]

Invoke Magic -- Source?

LoM.

CROM requires you to be in the AMF before you can spend a standard action to end it. I hope you are prepared to be in the bad place better than that.

Uh, you made it sound like I'd be anyways. Also, I hear Celerity is a good spell. I also hear that you don't ever even need to prep it, as you have 8+ spontaneous spells.

Forcecage is too small to cast inside an AMF. AMF may not penetrate an existing one, but you won't be able to cast a new one.

Uh, no. It's got plenty of range. Try again?

Prismatic Sphere is Centered on you, so it is good for defense, but you can't leave them in one, unless you occupy their square while you cast it, and then move away.

So you can get all your spells up? You are assuming that wizards never have any buffs ready. Any countermeasures. And never have the idiot with the sword. No summons. Nothing. It is absurd.

Your various Wall Solutions are going to require multiple actions to set up.

Uh, I hear that Wall of Stone has at least 45' of stone wall. I hear that'll buy you a turn...

Plane Shift is a touch spell, and you won't be able to cast it if you are in an AMF, so you will need at least 15ft of reach, or metamagic to pull this off.

And I can think of multiple good metamagics to get this off. Metamagic is pretty pro, you know?

Also, AMF is a 5th level spell. It would be reasonable to run into it beginning at 7th level (for an ECL+2 encounter). All of your solutions require feats or 5th and higher level spells (multiples of most of the 5ths), or you know, you can have a generally useful Orb of X spell prepared, and not spend significant build resources overcoming one particular kind of challenge.

Okay, IoM gives me immunity at level 3, anyways. To quote:

Care to try again?

Are you implying that D&D is competitive, and "everyone who matters" uses pun-pun whenever possible?

Trollolol? Seriously, optimization=pun-pun? I'm not going to bother going any further.

I skipped the last 5 pages, but it should be noted that if allowed, Dragon Magazine 325, Pg. 60-63, is very useful to all sorts of theurges, due to the number of theurgic feats.

Alternative Source Spell, already mentioned in the guide, is the main one, but several others can be quite handy.

I'll go expand that in the OP, then.

And, TDC, I actually play at a low tier 3 table, mostly ToB stuff.I, however, believe people need to know the high end before playing the low end, so they don't screw themselves over.

[Little Brother]

I would also like to see how someone could build a spontaneous caster theurge.

Some people (like myself) can't be bothered with the whole "preparation" business. Any help for people like me?

The best one is already covered in the OP. You will want something along the lines of Bard 1/Favored Soul 9/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9.

Because you are behind, anyways, when casting spontaneously, you really need fast progression, so you will need Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder.

That help?

[Geigan]

I would also like to see how someone could build a spontaneous caster theurge.

Some people (like myself) can't be bothered with the whole "preparation" business. Any help for people like me?

Here's something from earlier in the thread that I drummed up. It's big no no on Little Brother's list though because it uses sorcerer instead of sublime chord.

All that said I wanted to mention the Versatile Spellcaster+heighten trick for spontaneous theurges which as always has it's contentiousness RAW-wise. The only truly SAD spontaneous theurge would be a sorcerer/shugenja off the top of my head, but I only know that because that's the one I've been planning on playing in my next campaign.

The build went something like:
Sorc2/Shugenja1/Mystic TheurgeX/Arcane HierophantX/???/profit!
probably a dip of sacred exorcist for turn undead into DMM.

Bamboo spirit folk(OA) lets you get into Arcane Hierophant anyway you want, and with the sorcerer ACF from UA you can get a pretty decent little Animal Companion after you take all the levels in Hierophant. Requires at least a 12 int to keep up with skill prereqs here or there but that shouldn't be that big a deal since you're SAD for everything else.

The contentiousness RAW wise I mentioned is just whether versatile spellcaster+heighten gets you in to theurge early, which is really more a DM will throw books at you for using early entry shenanigans in general than any real argument against the RAW. You're the slowest kind of theurge around so no big deal.

Also note that when I said only true SAD theurge, I meant that shugenja is really the only pure charisma based divine spontaneous caster. This is obviously not as strong as a prepared theurge as you're delaying yourself a whole spell level in comparison to faster progression classes on both sides even with early entry tricks. It still gets 9ths though at least and will let you get your theurging on earlier than a sublime chord build, so I suppose it's at least passable. Make sure to take the animal companion instead of a familiar ACF for your sorcerer so you can get a nice pet from your Arcane Hierophant levels.

[dextercorvia]

LoM.

9th level evocation (which you were maligning earlier) and it only allows you to cast from within, not to cast into an AMF.

Uh, you made it sound like I'd be anyways.

No, I asked how you would take out an enemy who was sitting in one. Since I was suggesting Orbs, I thought it was clear the caster wasn't in the AMF.

Uh, no. It's got plenty of range. Try again?

Range isn't the problem. The barred cage (biggest option) is a 20' cube, that is going to put it right on top of the AMF. You can't cast it into the AMF.

So you can get all your spells up? You are assuming that wizards never have any buffs ready. Any countermeasures. And never have the idiot with the sword. No summons. Nothing. It is absurd.

Nothing of the sort, I just said that you couldn't use Prismatic Sphere to completely bypass the guy.

Uh, I hear that Wall of Stone has at least 45' of stone wall. I hear that'll buy you a turn...

That is 5' tall, and won't even surround the AMF

Okay, IoM gives me immunity at level 3, anyways.

IoM only lets you cast from within the AMF, it does nothing to allow regular spells to penetrate from outside.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

And, TDC, I actually play at a low tier 3 table, mostly ToB stuff.I, however, believe people need to know the high end before playing the low end, so they don't screw themselves over.

Fair enough, Little Brother. I like various "tricks," too. I love my wizards, simply because it is fun to make a magical person and think "How do I want to be magical?"

As others have said, the guide looks sophomoric and "in your face." So were past guides by treantmonk and The Logic Ninja, yes. I enjoyed reading their guides, yes, but such is not everyone's cup of tea.

In so far as my hand is in these regards, the guide should be about the options someone may or may not have. I know I have a copy of Dragon Magazine 325 around here somewhere, but it is a resource not readily available to me. I have a large library, but that doesn't always mean I want to double check every single book I own when making a character. I mean, I might, but odds are I'll do a quick search for "X Handbook" and then ask the forum.

[Little Brother]

9th level evocation (which you were maligning earlier) and it only allows you to cast from within, not to cast into an AMF.

I never maligned evocation. Try again.

No, I asked how you would take out an enemy who was sitting in one. Since I was suggesting Orbs, I thought it was clear the caster wasn't in the AMF.

And I have given you some ways.

Range isn't the problem. The barred cage (biggest option) is a 20' cube, that is going to put it right on top of the AMF. You can't cast it into the AMF.

This powerful spell brings into being an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).

Creatures within the area are caught and contained unless they are too big to fit inside, in which case the spell automatically fails. Teleportation and other forms of astral travel provide a means of escape, but the force walls or bars extend into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.

Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.

Barred Cage
This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

Windowless Cell
This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides.

n invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

You were saying?

Nothing of the sort, I just said that you couldn't use Prismatic Sphere to completely bypass the guy.

I beg to differ. I can teleport out of it, and come back more preped.

That is 5' tall, and won't even surround the AMF

Or a wall that is otherwise tall enough, but long enough too require a double move, thus buying turns to get away.

IoM only lets you cast from within the AMF, it does nothing to allow regular spells to penetrate from outside.

Okay? I cast inside the AMF defensively. I use Planeshift. I use Finger of Death, or any other SoD. I use other Batman spells, you know, the actually useful ones.

I would also like to note that mundane flight costs 10K GP for twice your land speed in flight.

[dextercorvia]

I'll have more time for a response later, but you need to double check your Wall of Force/AMF interactions. An AMF won't cause a Wall of Force (and probably a Forcecage) to wink out, however, you still can't cast one into an existing AMF.

[Leon]

The best tools are the best tools. Period.

Indeed the best tools are best - but for what job?
The wizard is a tradesman that can be anything from a handyman to a master craftsman in his chosen field of expertise.

Wizards like tradesman come in all shapes and sizes and all are good at what they do - they may not be the career that a person in particular would choose but all are valid options.

I never maligned evocation.

Just Evokers and the thought of anyone using that play style on a wizard.



All this Theurging has got me wanting to play a Shunjena/Sorcerer Theurge now (Buff & Heals on the Divine Side and a Weapons Platform on the Sorcerer side - I'd do an evoker but the synergy of two CHA casters is too nice to pass up)

[Little Brother]

Indeed the best tools are best - but for what job?
The wizard is a tradesman that can be anything from a handyman to a master craftsman in his chosen field of expertise.

Wizards like tradesman come in all shapes and sizes and all are good at what they do - they may not be the career that a person in particular would choose but all are valid options.

Taking the metaphor too far, thus ruining the meaning.

All this Theurging has got me wanting to play a Shunjena/Sorcerer Theurge now (Buff & Heals on the Divine Side and a Weapons Platform on the Sorcerer side - I'd do an evoker but the synergy of two CHA casters is too nice to pass up)

Okay, please tell me how it goes . Want specific help on the build?

[Leon]

Okay, please tell me how it goes . Want specific help on the build?

Its in planing atm - On the off chance that something irreversible happens to my Cleric (given that we know the next big encounter involves a Pit Fiend and a large host of other assorted nasty ex-planar beings.)

currently at
Dream Dwarf
Shugenja 4/ Sorcerer 4/ MT 5
Prac Spellcaster