Goblins VIII: This Thread Contains An Unexpected Variable

[Marnath]

He really does skip to many updates.

I'm going to just throw it out of my favourites and come back in a few months.
And read half a dozen back to back.

What are you talking about? Thunt rarely skips updates. He's late sometimes by a few hours but that's not the same thing.

[LoneStarNorth]

What are you talking about? Thunt rarely skips updates. He's late sometimes by a few hours but that's not the same thing.

He's missed a couple of updates over the past month and a half or so. That translates to every update forever in internet time.

[Draconi Redfir]

He's missed a couple of updates over the past month and a half or so. That translates to every update forever in internet time.

Well you know. Buying a house kinda eats up one's time.

[Anteros]

Well you know. Buying a house kinda eats up one's time.

I dunno. Millions of people buy houses every year, and they still have time to do their jobs. Of course, since it's basically free entertainment, we don't really have much room to complain either way.

[Draconi Redfir]

I dunno. Millions of people buy houses every year, and they still have time to do their jobs. Of course, since it's basically free entertainment, we don't really have much room to complain either way.

True, but a lot of jobs dont involve drawning an extensive webcomic

[Dragonus45]

I dunno. Millions of people buy houses every year, and they still have time to do their jobs. Of course, since it's basically free entertainment, we don't really have much room to complain either way.

Well considering the donations he has gotten i wouldn't call it free. That said as someone who donated so he could get the house i couldn't care if he missed a whole month, if it could reasonably take that long to move in. I sent the money so his family could have a home and i'm happy that he got one.

[LoneStarNorth]

True, but a lot of jobs dont involve drawning an extensive webcomic

Thunt works 70 hours a week. He's lucky he can find time to pee.

[Anteros]

Well considering the donations he has gotten i wouldn't call it free. That said as someone who donated so he could get the house i couldn't care if he missed a whole month, if it could reasonably take that long to move in. I sent the money so his family could have a home and i'm happy that he got one.

It really is a poor repayment for all the people who donated to put off updating. Still...as someone who has never donated, and never intends to, I'm not really complaining either.

[The Linker]

You're doing a lot of that 'not really complaining' for someone who's not complaining.

I can't imagine anyone expecting, with our previous knowledge that he barely makes his deadlines already, Thunt to manage said workload while also moving. I don't care how much anyone paid, money doesn't give him superpowers. Though that would make a kickass Kickstarter.

[Marnath]

It really is a poor repayment for all the people who donated to put off updating. Still...as someone who has never donated, and never intends to, I'm not really complaining either.

I feel this exchange from the Goblins forum is relevant here.

Three days later and Friday's comic is late. Good work ethic there.

Hey look, it's one of those people that talks about what a terrible work ethic I have without putting any work into seeing how truthful that claim is, before publicly insulting me.

My work day starts when I wake up and it ends when I go to bed. My breaks are for meals, to pick up my kids or to walk my dog. Lately, my work day has included purchasing a house or packing. I work seven days a week and sleep 3 to 8 hours a night. During the last 7.5 years of drawing this comic, I have skipped Danielle's birthday three times, my birthday five and have worked during five Christmases to get more drawing done. I have given up 100% of my social life and have no hobbies.

So please explain to us again about how horrible my work ethic is. No, no, I want to hear this. Please go on.

also(spoilered for length):

Spoiler

Show

I wish people would understand how impressive it is that Thunt gets the comic done on time at all. Of course it is probably just because I am looking at it from an artist's perspective. Twice a week gives him about 3.5 days per comic. Here is a generalized list of work and the approximate time it takes to make a full page comic with good quality artwork:

1. Layout (3-4hrs) - This is more than just how the panels are arranged, though that can be tough deciding what will have the best impact. Characters and speech bubbles have to be blocked in so that everything will fit right and the speech won't cover anything important. More complicated layouts can take longer than the time given.

2. Roughing it in (5-6hrs) - Rough sketch of everything. Seems like it would be quick, but this is the stage where you go and correct all that "No, this doesn't look quite right.... How about this way?" type of thing. This can be pretty time consuming, and the more that is going on in the picture the more time this could take.

That would be end of Day 1 with 8-10 hours of work or more...

3. Detail sketch (8-12hrs) - Taking that rough sketch and putting in all those little details that matter. A scar here, a dent there... It isn't just writing, but also doing a little look back on the way each character has been drawn to make sure you don't forget anything. Sometimes correcting stuff that doesn't look right here as well can take up time. The more detailed the character the more time this stage can take (Often this is when you'll hear artists say things like "This is the last time I draw a *bleeping* dragon. All of these *bleeping* scales... *BLEEEEP*")

Oh look, end of Day 2 with 8-12 hours of work or more...

4. Lining (8-10hrs) - Yeah, drawing back over something you've already sketched seems so easy. You're just tracing right? Well, lining is a heck-of-a-lot more than that. And you know what, Thunt is a FRIGGIN MASTER at line work. I don't know how many people really appreciate the skill he has in lining. I know I geek out whenever I watch him do lining on the live feed. The more detail, the more this takes (see dragon comment, in fact that comment is the same during shading to which comes later).

Oops, Day 3 over with 8-10hrs of work or more.

5. Coloring (4-5hrs) - Coloring is a little easier, at least in the low detailed scenes where a lot of colors are the same and you don't gotta worry about shadows and such. More details can make this go seriously long because coloring is the point where you but the weight of the shadows and highlights in which different than the shading stage.

That actually ends the 3.5 days... Total of around 28-36 hours worked, which on the long end is nearly a 40 hr work week for one update. You still have Shading(2-16hrs depends on a lot of things in the scene), Typesetting (0.5-4hrs depends on how much speech and a lot of other stuff), and making corrections to stuff that has already been posted.

Now take all of that together and that is 30.5-56hrs spent per update for a work week of 61-112hrs. Yeah.. I don't envy that schedule at all. Sometimes it could be much shorter for easier artwork, but also sometimes it could be longer for the really detailed scenes. He also has a life to think about, and being human deserves some time off.. Like you know at least a day or two a week would probably be nice for him. Let's put this in perspective, in a 7 day week there are only 112 waking hours if you get a full 8 hours of sleep each night.

I know some people at this point start talking about this one comic or another that does more updates and keeps a better schedule.. yadda yadda. Yeah, most of those comics have one person each for writing, linework, coloring, and shading. The ones that don't are generally strip comics whereas Thunt does a full page comic. And yes, there are people who can do amazing art on a full page comic on time with more updates a week than Thunt, and you know... Those people are a-flipping-mazing. I'm jealous of their skills, and I'd be willing to bet Thunt and a TON of other artists are as well. We can't all be that good at what we do, but just because it takes you longer to do Quantum Physics calculations than Stephen Hawking doesn't take away from the fact that you are still doing Gourd-Rammed quantum physics calculations.

If you spend even a few minutes getting to know the man behind the comic from the posts and news updates he does, and listen to him on his live feed you'll learn something about his character. Thunt LOVES this comic, and the people who read it. I'd be willing to bet good money that it bothers him more than any raging fan when he has to skip updates or be late on them. Ease up a bit, he at least tries to give us a heads up on when something is going on that will cause the comic to be late or an update will be skipped.

Eh, just my two cents... People will always complain, fact of life it seems.

[Seerow]

@Marnath: That is exactly why I don't generally complain about lack of updates for Goblins as opposed to some other comics I read where the creators obviously don't put that much time and effort into it *cougherfworldcough*


On the other hand, I do find 40 hours of work to produce a single page to be slightly ridiculous. I also think the level of obsession involved (giving up all outside hobbies, friendships, holidays, etc) is unhealthy. My wish for him to cut back on the perfectionism a bit even if it means letting the quality drop some is really more about thinking he works way too hard, but dropping the update schedule back to what it was a few years back would very possibly kill the fanbase.

[Draconi Redfir]

TBH i think it would be perfectly reasionable to have only one update a week, give the man a little time off or some extra time to make his comic the way he likes it.

Like i said that might be the intention with hiring the other artist for the MAP story, so we still get two updates a week, but only one of either story.

[Marnath]

On the other hand, I do find 40 hours of work to produce a single page to be slightly ridiculous. I also think the level of obsession involved (giving up all outside hobbies, friendships, holidays, etc) is unhealthy. My wish for him to cut back on the perfectionism a bit even if it means letting the quality drop some is really more about thinking he works way too hard, but dropping the update schedule back to what it was a few years back would very possibly kill the fanbase.

It's been suggested to him before that he could cut quality to reduce workload. Drop into the live feed sometime and ask if you want to hear him rant about how he's in it for the art, not to pump out cheap garbage to make a quick buck.

[Tundar]

Hehe, I love the last panel of the recent update
http://www.goblinscomic.com/03272012/

[Killer Angel]

That's certainly one of the nicer "sorry for the delay" i've ever seen...

[qbit]

Sorry to have complained, I'm sure Thunt puts in lot's of work. But that doesn't mean I have to like it when he skips and update. And he also skipped one last week. so obviously he is very busy with moving and stuff. So I decided to just not read it for a while. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[Cavelcade]

A further point for those who are complaining to about him missing deadlines and how people who move home who have a job have to keep on working - typically they don't. Usually people would take a couple of weeks off from their job to move house (which may have been advisable here) and even when they get back their not expected to immediately meet all deadlines that were set previous to moving house. Don't be absurd with your critiques.

[Barbarian MD]

I have to agree with Seerow, for his own health he should spend less time per page. Whether that translates into more pages doesn't really concern me. He needs a life outside drawing, or he's going to burn out and stop long before this storyline comes to a satisfying conclusion.

[Traab]

A further point for those who are complaining to about him missing deadlines and how people who move home who have a job have to keep on working - typically they don't. Usually people would take a couple of weeks off from their job to move house (which may have been advisable here) and even when they get back their not expected to immediately meet all deadlines that were set previous to moving house. Don't be absurd with your critiques.

Meh, not so much, ive helped move families multiple times. Most common method, unless there is some huge rush to be fully out of the old house now now now, is, they pack up everything they dont need to have on hand right now, like a couple changes of clothes, food, their beds, things like that. They wait for the weekend, rent a uhaul, get a group of friends together, then power through the weekend transporting boxes and furniture from point a to point b. Unpacking can be done over time and as needed, so it isnt a priority, packing the nonessentials up is also not a priority and can be done as time allows drawing up to the weekend. No need to miss work at all in that case.

The more friends you have, the faster it can be done, as with enough you can have a group at the old house stacking boxes to be moved next near the door, a group of friends at point b getting the latest truckload of boxes moved out of the way and group 3 are the transporters, loading and unloading the truck and driving between points. However here we have thunt who apparently has a job and updates this comic three times a week? Yeah, that makes things way harder, as the windows of open time are way smaller than someone working a standard 8 hour shift and thats it.

[Maryring]

Wait what? What job would let you take weeks off just to move? In this instance it's understandable, since this job doesn't exactly have weekends or even clear working hours, so he pretty much needs to take time of his job to move. But in general? Yeah, I'm not seeing anyone getting even one week free to move. How much stuff do you have that you need "weeks" off work to move anyway? Getting all the stuff into the house should be easy enough to do over a weekend, and then you unpack while you have the time to do so.

[Anteros]

A further point for those who are complaining to about him missing deadlines and how people who move home who have a job have to keep on working - typically they don't. Usually people would take a couple of weeks off from their job to move house (which may have been advisable here) and even when they get back their not expected to immediately meet all deadlines that were set previous to moving house. Don't be absurd with your critiques.

I have never, ever, in my entire life seen someone take off multiple weeks in order to move. Maybe a day. Maybe. If I were your boss and you told me you needed multiple weeks off of work in order to move, I would laugh in your face.

You're doing a lot of that 'not really complaining' for someone who's not complaining.

I can't imagine anyone expecting, with our previous knowledge that he barely makes his deadlines already, Thunt to manage said workload while also moving. I don't care how much anyone paid, money doesn't give him superpowers. Though that would make a kickass Kickstarter.

I think it's possible to state a view point without personally sharing it. Which is what I was trying to do.

On a personal note, I'm not sure it really speaks to Thunt's work ethic that he spends 40 hours drawing a single page. It's not exactly, back-breaking labor, and it's not like it takes most artists 40 hours of work to pump out one page of work. Goblins is well drawn, but it's not that well drawn. That's just more about him being anal concerning his art than any type of work ethic. (Which is fine, it's his art. He can treat it however he wants.)

[John Cribati]

That's just more about him being anal concerning his art

... You mean, like every other artist that takes him/herself even remotely seriously?

[Marnath]

On a personal note, I'm not sure it really speaks to Thunt's work ethic that he spends 40 hours drawing a single page. It's not exactly, back-breaking labor, and it's not like it takes most artists 40 hours of work to pump out one page of work. Goblins is well drawn, but it's not that well drawn. That's just more about him being anal concerning his art than any type of work ethic. (Which is fine, it's his art. He can treat it however he wants.)

You really have no concept of what's involved in making a comic, do you? Thunt does the work of several people. You don't think Marvel has the same guy doing story, drawing and coloring do you?

[Gez]

You really have no concept of what's involved in making a comic, do you? Thunt does the work of several people. You don't think Marvel has the same guy doing story, drawing and coloring do you?

No, but I bet this guy does:

For a while now I’ve felt that I’ve just not had the time to spend concentrating on each individual page of Gunnerkrigg Court. Since I had to finish three whole pages over essentially a day and a half during the weekends, I didn’t feel like I was doing the story, or you, the reader, justice.

Okay. This is not doing the story or the reader justice. This is a page done in a half-day. By someone who is exhausted from a week of depressing work. Same for this one. Or that one. Or this one. Etc. It's just random pages from relatively recently, and they're all awesome.

Now, Tom Siddell is an extremely talented man; and it's a bit unfair to compare Thunt to him. But maybe Thunt could push himself a bit to take less time on each page.

[The Linker]

On a personal note, I'm not sure it really speaks to Thunt's work ethic that he spends 40 hours drawing a single page. It's not exactly, back-breaking labor, and it's not like it takes most artists 40 hours of work to pump out one page of work.

If he spends all of those forty hours working in a row, with breaks only for eating and sleeping, that sounds like precisely what it means to have a good work ethic. That's just different from being able to use your time as efficiently as possible, which is more valid of a complaint.

His work ethic should never be brought into question. He's so far from being lazy that the contended problem lies in the opposite direction.

[Anteros]

You really have no concept of what's involved in making a comic, do you? Thunt does the work of several people. You don't think Marvel has the same guy doing story, drawing and coloring do you?

You're right. I have never drawn anything. I have also never known anyone who has done art work. It is thus completely impossible for me to understand the unique difficulties faced by the poor oppressed artist.

No, I don't think Marvel has one guy doing everything. I also don't think it takes Marvel 40 hours of work to churn out a single page. I also don't think Thunt's work is on that level either.

If he spends all of those forty hours working in a row, with breaks only for eating and sleeping, that sounds like precisely what it means to have a good work ethic. That's just different from being able to use your time as efficiently as possible, which is more valid of a complaint.

His work ethic should never be brought into question. He's so far from being lazy that the contended problem lies in the opposite direction.

Go to work tomorrow and spend all day on one minor, trivial task. Ignore the rest of your responsibilities for the day, but make sure that one task is absolutely "perfect". Then ask your boss what he thinks about your work.

This is all semantics anyway. As I've stated several times, I don't actually care if Thunt skips an update or not. It's his comic. If he never wants to update it again, that's his right. I just have to laugh when people get all up in arms every single time someone dares criticize their favorite artists.

[The Linker]

Go to work tomorrow and spend all day on one minor, trivial task. Ignore the rest of your responsibilities for the day, but make sure that one task is absolutely "perfect". Then ask your boss what he thinks about your work.

You're not even disagreeing with me, here. It's the efficiency of his time spent that's in question. Like I said.

You may have confused me for someone who's frothing at the mouth and saying "NO THUNT IS PERFECT," but I am not. Just as I don't think Marnath was trying to say "If you haven't drawn a webcomic you can't give your opinion." It feels like you're over-extrapolating.

[Dragonus45]

You're right. I have never drawn anything. I have also never known anyone who has done art work. It is thus completely impossible for me to understand the unique difficulties faced by the poor oppressed artist.

No, I don't think Marvel has one guy doing everything. I also don't think it takes Marvel 40 hours of work to churn out a single page. I also don't think Thunt's work is on that level either.

The thing about marvel not taking 40 hours is the fact they have multiple artists, for shading and inking and doing backgrounds and handling shading. One guy is gonna take much longer, and honestly i dont get where your comparison is. Thunts work is very high quality.

This is all semantics anyway. As I've stated several times, I don't actually care if Thunt skips an update or not. It's his comic. If he never wants to update it again, that's his right. I just have to laugh when people get all up in arms every single time someone dares criticize their favorite artists.

Yea and i have to laugh every single time someone decides that defending someone they respect from inane and misplaced criticism means I'm a hopeless fanboy about to bust out the torches and pitchforks then start busting the castle doors down.

[Marnath]

Go to work tomorrow and spend all day on one minor, trivial task. Ignore the rest of your responsibilities for the day, but make sure that one task is absolutely "perfect". Then ask your boss what he thinks about your work.

That's sort of a flawed comparison for several reasons. Thunt is his own boss and it's not one minor thing, the comic is the entirety of his business and is what puts food on his table. Does he work too hard? Yeah. But it's disingenuous to make light of how much time he spends getting it to the level of quality he wants, especially when you don't fully appreciate how much work that takes.

This is all semantics anyway. As I've stated several times, I don't actually care if Thunt skips an update or not. It's his comic. If he never wants to update it again, that's his right. I just have to laugh when people get all up in arms every single time someone dares criticize their favorite artists.

Dragonus45 has it right. If you want to see some real white knighting, bring your sentiments to the Goblins forum. We would get in trouble if we were actually behaving the way you suggest here.

[Sholos]

The thing about marvel not taking 40 hours is the fact they have multiple artists, for shading and inking and doing backgrounds and handling shading. One guy is gonna take much longer, and honestly i dont get where your comparison is. Thunts work is very high quality.

I believe Anteros is referring to man-hours.