Goblins VIII: This Thread Contains An Unexpected Variable

[Gez]

At this point I'm inclined to not feel bad about any hate mail she gets. Either she deserves it, or she wants it.

Yeah, she attacked Thunt and the comic with false accusations. Then when this caused a backlash against her, she acted like it was Thunt's fault, because he couldn't control his fanbase.

Thunt can perfectly control his fanbase. For example, he can post his exchanges with that person on the frontpage of his comic so that every single one of his readers can learn about it and be subtly incited to harass that person. It works, too, since here we already have two posters going on to say that she deserves the harassment she got.

Thunt isn't owed any apology. The woman admitted she interpreted the scene wrongly, that should have been more than enough for him. Did Thunt say he was sorry for triggering, through his clumsy writing, painful flashback in a rape victim? No, he didn't, he was too busy justifying himself and lashing out at criticism. But that impudent woman, she really should make a show of public contrition for having dared to upset poor Thunt's widdle feelings!

Yeah no.

He could have posted something along the line of: "The reactions to the ComicMix contest are getting ugly. There was in particular a case where the latest page, with Kin's banishment of Not-Walter, was grossly misread and this misinterpretation used as a reason to bash my comic. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you're better off not knowing. If you do know, however, then you should also know that I have talked with the person behind these allegations and the matter has been amicably settled. So now I'd like all third parties to give it a rest, as keeping this controversy open is not going to do any of us any good."

Instead, he decided to pose as the innocent victim of a conspiracy.

Plus it's not like Thunt is as innocent as he claims to be. Yeah, that's an old page, not the one referenced. But, one of the comments to which Thunt objected was:

P.S. if you can’t think of ANY possible way to show that a character is evil OTHER than making them a rapist/would-be rapist, you are a ****ty writer, hope that helps.”

Did Thunt really have to hammer in that GS was a rapist? At this point, it's not like his portrayal was ambiguous and the readers were going to think that maybe he was a good guy. The whole scene could have been rendered differently, with subtlety. For example, looking at it from the focus of Forgath, who would see the two bantering away, then Minmax looking shocked, angry, and starting the fight. But noooo, Thunt thought it would be better to have GS do a hammy gloating scene about how raping snakes is awesome.

Also, to show how sensitive and totally not misogynist Thunt is, let's look at his thought about the character design for his rape-as-backstory snake lady:

Spoiler

Show

She gotta look sexy and show alotta skin!

That skeeves me as much as Mookie's posting of baby Melna sketch with the "why am I drawing her as a kid? You'll see" comment some time before introducing Melna's own rape backstory.

[Draconi Redfir]

You clearly are not enjoying the author or the comic.

So why not just stop reading?

[Radar]

You clearly are not enjoying the author or the comic.

So why not just stop reading?

You can dislike the author and like his works or even the other way around.

Not so few great musicians had very difficult personalities and adhered to highly controversial philosophies, but it doesn't diminish the quality of their music.

[Gez]

Once upon a time, there was a forum where people discuss webcomics, and someone made a thread about Goblins. By curiosity, I looked, commented that I didn't like the art style much, and went away.

But the thread lived on, and sired seven offsprings. Since all these peoples seemed to have a lot to say about this comic, I gave it another try, got over my negative reaction to the art, and actually got to kinda like the story. I will not identify as a fan, because I'm not; but I am a reader. I still kinda like the story even if Thunt's recent antics have lowered my esteem for him as a person.

And saying "if you find any criticism to make, just stop reading and shut up" is a terrible defense. Need I remind you that this subforum's longest-lived and most successful thread series is the one where everybody gather round to say just how bad Dominic Deegan is?

[Draconi Redfir]

You clearly are not enjoying the author or the comic.

So why not just stop reading?

"if you find any criticism to make, just stop reading and shut up"

Not really seeing how these two have anything in common with eachother.

Just saying.

[Tono]

My $.2; I read the line as implied soul rape just because I have heard about it like that, and well thunt does have a past using rape. I ignored it though, because I don't care as much. And looking at it from a perspective of someone just checking out the comic randomly, it does look like he is talking to Kin. And then his reaction is grossly done. He basically calls her damaged because of how she interprets it("Have you ever heard of a Rorschach test? Cause what you’re seeing isn’t there and has come from your own mind... What you described is… pretty gross, actually"), and then we she does admit that she could have read it wrong and ask that he tell his fans to chill, he gets upset because she also suggest that he challenge himself a little more with his character design. (Which sounds familiar. One or two webcomic artist have gone that path in the past, and it doesn't turn out pretty.) And the fact of the matter is, he did not do anything by not posting her name. Posting the exact quotes instead of just acknowledging them makes it -very- easy to find the person. One google search infact, maybe two.

I like reading goblins. Its decent despite the stuff I don't like. I can look past the bits I don't like because I like it as a whole. I personally -don't- like Thunt as a person of interest because of this, his whole spill on Scot Kurtz a while ago(Don't like Kurtz either but his whole thing screamed as more of a 'start a fight to get attention' more then anything), and just his general attitude. I can however ignore the author and read the work. Its how I got through The Sword of Truth series, its how I think I may get through this. Which saddens me, because I want to like thunt, because he seems to be a kind and caring man where his family and fans are concerned.

[busterswd]

Thunt isn't owed any apology. The woman admitted she interpreted the scene wrongly, that should have been more than enough for him. Did Thunt say he was sorry for triggering, through his clumsy writing, painful flashback in a rape victim? No, he didn't, he was too busy justifying himself and lashing out at criticism. But that impudent woman, she really should make a show of public contrition for having dared to upset poor Thunt's widdle feelings!

There's a difference between someone interpreting a scene wrongly and someone deciding to spread over multiple channels of communication that a comic glorifies rape because she can't be bothered to read a single page. An unqualified apology would be appropriate in this case, but she's either too embarrassed or too invested in her perception to do so.

For the record, what Thunt's doing ain't so great either; he really does tend to get a bit immature about stuff like this, and had he taken the high road, that would've reflected a lot better on him. I can understand where he's coming from (having people from left field basically **** on something you've created for no reason is incredibly infuriating) but he needs to back off.

Offtopic:

That skeeves me as much as Mookie's posting of baby Melna sketch with the "why am I drawing her as a kid? You'll see" comment some time before introducing Melna's own rape backstory.

...*blink*

...Holy crap, that little internet treasure just took ANOTHER downturn mentally for me.

[H. Zee]

*snippity-snip-snip

Thank you, Gez, for writing this so that I didn't have to. *applauds*

[Otherworld Odd]

In all reality, I think he reacted the way he did because he cares about this stupid contest too much, and didn't want it to reflect him badly to the voters.

He saw red, then this was born. I think we've all had something similar happen at least once in our lives..

[JadedDM]

Thunt can perfectly control his fanbase. For example, he can post his exchanges with that person on the frontpage of his comic so that every single one of his readers can learn about it and be subtly incited to harass that person. It works, too, since here we already have two posters going on to say that she deserves the harassment she got.

The harassment started before he made the blog post. Thunt is just trying to protect his reputation. This woman, busterswd points out, was spreading all over the internet that Thunt was a rape sympathizer.

He certainly could have handled the situation better, I agree. But I don't think it's right to paint him as being completely wrong, and she completely right.

Thunt isn't owed any apology. The woman admitted she interpreted the scene wrongly, that should have been more than enough for him. Did Thunt say he was sorry for triggering, through his clumsy writing, painful flashback in a rape victim? No, he didn't, he was too busy justifying himself and lashing out at criticism. But that impudent woman, she really should make a show of public contrition for having dared to upset poor Thunt's widdle feelings!

Thunt did apologize to her. Several times. Check his twitter, as I don't know how to link to specific tweets.

[Maryring]

My $.2; I read the line as implied soul rape just because I have heard about it like that, and well thunt does have a past using rape. I ignored it though, because I don't care as much. And looking at it from a perspective of someone just checking out the comic randomly, it does look like he is talking to Kin. And then his reaction is grossly done. He basically calls her damaged because of how she interprets it("Have you ever heard of a Rorschach test? Cause what you’re seeing isn’t there and has come from your own mind... What you described is… pretty gross, actually"), and then we she does admit that she could have read it wrong and ask that he tell his fans to chill, he gets upset because she also suggest that he challenge himself a little more with his character design. (Which sounds familiar. One or two webcomic artist have gone that path in the past, and it doesn't turn out pretty.) And the fact of the matter is, he did not do anything by not posting her name. Posting the exact quotes instead of just acknowledging them makes it -very- easy to find the person. One google search infact, maybe two.

I like reading goblins. Its decent despite the stuff I don't like. I can look past the bits I don't like because I like it as a whole. I personally -don't- like Thunt as a person of interest because of this, his whole spill on Scot Kurtz a while ago(Don't like Kurtz either but his whole thing screamed as more of a 'start a fight to get attention' more then anything), and just his general attitude. I can however ignore the author and read the work. Its how I got through The Sword of Truth series, its how I think I may get through this. Which saddens me, because I want to like thunt, because he seems to be a kind and caring man where his family and fans are concerned.

I agree with most of that, except that I find it hard to see how he could've spoken to Kin. He refers to someone bald, when Kin clearly has hair, he gets the attention of someone else, showing clearly that he's not speaking with Kin, and then we get the "dogpile" comment, which I have a hard time seeing as "rape" and more like "being swarmed by tons of tiny demons and dragged screaming down to hell". It... seems a bit more typical for the horrid fate of dealing with demons.

Of course that's just me. Even then it doesn't justify hatemailing someone. Someone says something wrong, you prove that she's wrong to those who would believe her to be right, and then let it be. Hate and threaths just reflects poorly on yourself.

[Madara]

Goblin fans!

Let there be no division among us! We must let such an event go, and move on. The matter has been settled, the damage done. I want to just go back to enjoying the comic

[SaintRidley]

I agree with most of that, except that I find it hard to see how he could've spoken to Kin. He refers to someone bald, when Kin clearly has hair, he gets the attention of someone else, showing clearly that he's not speaking with Kin, and then we get the "dogpile" comment, which I have a hard time seeing as "rape" and more like "being swarmed by tons of tiny demons and dragged screaming down to hell". It... seems a bit more typical for the horrid fate of dealing with demons.

Of course that's just me. Even then it doesn't justify hatemailing someone. Someone says something wrong, you prove that she's wrong to those who would believe her to be right, and then let it be. Hate and threaths just reflects poorly on yourself.

Somebody saw the word bitch, doesn't understand reading things for context, and there you have it.

[RMS Oceanic]

Somebody saw the word bitch, doesn't understand reading things for context, and there you have it.

I have to admit, the use of "bitch" confused me for a moment because of it being an insult traditionally used against women.

[Marnath]

I have to admit, the use of "bitch" confused me for a moment because of it being an insult traditionally used against women.

Really? It's a pretty equal opportunity insult in the part of the U.S. I live, at least.

[Maryring]

Sure it's traditionally used against women, but for me, it seemed pretty obvious that it was an emasculating insult towards the MinMax.

[Weimann]

I must agree with Gez here. Professionalism, Thunt.

Regarding the page itself, though, I liked it.

[Madara]

Really? It's a pretty equal opportunity insult in the part of the U.S. I live, at least.

Same. In fact, its used at men more often because it would be...very poor taste when used against a woman.

[RMS Oceanic]

Really? It's a pretty equal opportunity insult in the part of the U.S. I live, at least.

Well I'm not from the US. I do see it used against men, but something about my upbringing immediately assumes it's aimed at women if any are present.

[Barbarian MD]

New post from Thunt. He's telling his fans to stand down.

[Otherworld Odd]

Well he told them (I'm not including myself in this because I haven't messaged her) to stand down last post too. My prediction is that they'll just continue anyways.

If Thunt really didn't want people to harass her, he shouldn't have made that lengthy blog post prior to that.

[Seerow]

Really? It's a pretty equal opportunity insult in the part of the U.S. I live, at least.

Same here. I use the term referring to men at least as often if not moreso than women. I personally just consider it a harsher version of saying "bastard", regardless of the word's origins.

[The Glyphstone]

Well he told them (I'm not including myself in this because I haven't messaged her) to stand down last post too. My prediction is that they'll just continue anyways.

If Thunt really didn't want people to harass her, he shouldn't have made that lengthy blog post prior to that.

Or...maybe he didn't realize what the reactions to said blog post would be, and is trying to rein in the fans he didn't expect to become so militant in his defense? You're ascribing awfully Machevellian motives to Thunt, especially when that lengthy blog post explictly told people not to harass her in the first place.

[tomaO2]

It really annoys me how rape is the only form of violence that gets negative feedback like this. You can show the characters being beaten, cut-up, empaled, starved, dismembered, tortured, killed while pleading for their lives and even LIT ON FIRE(!), that's all fine, but the moment rape is mentioned (not even shown but just talked about in passing) then it's bad.

The girl's statements were stupid and wrong but Thunt really needs to figure out the difference between taking someone down a peg in his webchat or a forum thread and a more open venue like twitter or a blog post. He's snarky and argumentative, which is fine (amusing too, he can be creative in putting down trolls that visit his livestream shows) BUT in the latter areas it can spin out of control really fast (as was the case for that whole tempest in a teacup, hypno-rape non-issue that thunt stumbled into some time back). Everytime he opens his mouth in the twitter and blog forum about the girl, he feeds the trolls and the situation gets even bigger. It's all so needless.

Also, while expecting an apology is completely reasonable, as an author, you need to try and put out any potentially damaging flamewars, and (especially) to stop defamation, not to "win" the argument (you got your comic fans that can do that job perfectly well) because you may not get the apology you are looking for. No one likes to admit they are wrong.

No one.

Like, I personally think Thunt is 100% wrong when he tries to tell us how the front page comic page is completely meaningless. I'm sure he would like that everyone coming to the website would read the comic from start to back but in reality, people read far, far less. I think I read that people look at around 20 pages before deciding if they like a comic or not? It's not like Thunt doesn't understand this fact, that's why when you go to the Goblins beginning, he explicitly explains on the first page how the early art is crap compared to more recent stuff.

The current page is the first look that a potential fan will have when they visit, so every current page has to be your new best work and even if a certain aspect isn't a big part of the comic, it's still a portion of the overall narrative. If you don't wanna see gore, for instance, you shouldn't really read Goblins. Gore isn't in every page but it's certainly there. Likewise, if you don't wanna read about rape in any way, shape or form, Goblins... is also not the comic for you.

[fwiffo]

Or...maybe he didn't realize what the reactions to said blog post would be, and is trying to rein in the fans he didn't expect to become so militant in his defense? You're ascribing awfully Machevellian motives to Thunt, especially when that lengthy blog post explictly told people not to harass her in the first place.

I'll agree to this. The chances of Thunt not realizing the consequences of his action are significantly higher than the chance that he was deliberately rabble rousing. Hanlon's razor would apply here - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by... ummm... "

I do wish everyone would drop it, though. He himself is trying to put the incident behind him, and it would be nice for fans to follow suit.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I'm sensing much outside baggage on this one...

That being said, HER Tweet appeared on my Twitter, and I know I don't follow her. And it was obvious that she either completely misread the strip, or she was trolling for a response.

If it was a misread, it was a pretty bad one. From the context of the strip, even if you only read that one single strip, it was clear the demon was threatening Alt-Max and not Kin, and the threat wasn't a rape threat, it was a "We're going to beat you to a bloody pulp" threat.
If it was trolling? Well, don't feed the trolls. They like it when they get a rise out of you, it makes them feel like they have power. More so if they can get someone on "their" side.

I can see why Rich rarely posts to these boards, and just shuts down the "Morally Justified" threads as soon as they pop up.

[busterswd]

Or...maybe he didn't realize what the reactions to said blog post would be, and is trying to rein in the fans he didn't expect to become so militant in his defense? You're ascribing awfully Machevellian motives to Thunt, especially when that lengthy blog post explictly told people not to harass her in the first place.

Meh. With sizable fan base comes great responsibility, especially on the internet. This is like the Penny Arcade thing, where pretty much a newspost on what an asshat somebody was became a giant internet crusade to make his life a living hell. Thunt's gained at least a little recognition, and should be aware (if he's not already) that the things he says have greater repercussions, regardless of his intention. The blog post SAYS not to harass her, but has a pretty offended tone throughout and by the end of it, it's clear Thunt's still pissed.

I've read some of the girl's responses, and she does come off as a giant <insert misogynistic invective here>. There's a lot of reasons to criticize Goblins (heavyhanded writing, absolute overkill on graphic situations, etc.), but she's sticking to the wrong one. In order to avoid admitting her actions, and not her viewpoints, were out of line, she's STILL trying to paint Goblins as a chauvinistic woman degradation machine.

[Acanous]

mm. During the FIRST big-schpiel, he DID say

However, I would like to point out that contacting her and calling her names doesn’t help anyone. So please don’t, folks.

So really, he's being justifiably upset while still tossing a nod to the moral high ground. He's not being immature, or telling his fans to suit up and defend him.
That woman's accusations, however, are inaccurate. As such, they weaken future charges of Mysoginy.
For that alone, she should be blasted into an apoligy. If she loses face but fesses up to a mistake, she'll at least avoid devaluing a very serious accusation.

[Typewriter]

He was upset and made a post about it to his fans because, as long as I've been reading the comic(just a year or two) he's fairly transparent with everything he does(talking about his house issues, moving, sickness/travel causing the comic to be delayed).

So his actions made perfect sense, in that regard. Yes it could have been more professionally done, but that doesn't make it bad.

As for his fanbase taking his words and making threats against the woman - I think it's ridiculous to imply that was his intention. You're always going to have people that do stupid stuff, but nothing makes me think he was trying to form a posse to take her down.

Also: My Wife has never read the webcomic before so I had her read the new page, and only the new page. At first she didn't realize that Kin was the one being talked to, but when I pointed out the words, "Hey baldy", she said, "Oh, duh". When I asked her if she thought rape was involved in any way she was very, very confused.

[Doran]

It really annoys me how rape is the only form of violence that gets negative feedback like this. You can show the characters being beaten, cut-up, empaled, starved, dismembered, tortured, killed while pleading for their lives and even LIT ON FIRE(!), that's all fine, but the moment rape is mentioned (not even shown but just talked about in passing) then it's bad.

Yeah the trope http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...cialKindOfEvil does bug me. I think I've come up with a decent explanation of why it exists, but still yeah...

Also toma02, mind not using ComicSans? It makes my eyes bleed.