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Thread: The Mecha thread.
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2011-12-16, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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The Mecha thread.
Basically, in the various anime, computer games and other sources that use mecha, what things are usually done with them and why? What things are rarely done with them, and would those things be awesome if they were?
Item 1 (because it's obvious): Humanoid form in mecha.
Many media sources go with humanoid mecha, but many sources argue that the human form is unsuited for the sort of action a mech can expect to face.
Ways to deal with this:
1- subvert the humanoid form (for example turning the head into a 360 degree rotation weapons turret)
2- avoid the humanoid form (as seen in series such as Patlabor, Zoids, and the Mobile Armour Units of various gundam series)- rarely used for protagonist machines though, possibly due to the fear of alienating a young audience.Last edited by Mercenary Pen; 2011-12-20 at 06:21 AM. Reason: Change of title to better fit purpose of thread
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2011-12-16, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
The advantage of the humanoid form (putting aside realism to get the performance displayed) is in flexibility. As simple as the Gundam being able to carry a beam rifle and drop it to pull a beam saber, or use a heavier weapon without needing to do any work on the suit proper. And in general taking a human and making it huge, the problem is that human agility is not something that can actually scale up.
Putting back any realism you never reach smooth performance that would say ever make close quarters combat a reality. The universal century has Minovsky particles to take things out of simply rocket tag but you need further handwaves to get to a mech not being a big honking target for tanks. They are too fast and too resilient for their size as a rule.
Something like the Knightmare Frames of Code Geass are better by being fairly small but have a totally nonsensical movement system even before the Lensman Arms Race of the second season.
When you start talking about something that actually has to be construct with the square-cube law and vaguely realistic materials on a two legged structure you simply aren't going to get nice smoothly performing machines like Mobile Suits. You get maybe the AT-ST type, two legs and a weapons platform on something rather awkward. The advantage would only be in difficult terrain that rolling vehicles can't enter well.
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2011-12-16, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
I'm not entirely sure you need a humanoid form for that level of flexibility and agility- for example in the zoids anime series' similar things have been done using animal forms, which innately have certain close combat weapons in things like teeth, claws, pincers- but in this also have separate ranged weapons such as back mounted turrets, allowing them to transition from melee to ranged combat and vice versa relatively seamlessly (and some forms like spider/scorpion designs might actually be rather more practical than the humanoid form)
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2011-12-16, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
This is why I prefer BattleTech BattleMechs to the more anime-style giant mecha (yes, even Megas XLR, hilarious though that was). (And I grew up on Transformers.) Anime-type mecha just don't move right to me (I mean, most anime mecha bounce around more than the aforementioned Transformers, who at least have the excuse that they are actually creatures not piloted vehicles.)
(I also find the logic from some anime that (humanoid) mecha are better at fighting in the air than non-transforming fighters to be ridiculous with waaay too much rule-of-cool justification. (Doubly especially since I personally find starfighters to be far cooler than giant robots.))Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2011-12-16 at 12:18 PM.
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2011-12-16, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
And AT-STs have ludicrous balance problems, as demonstrated in-universe. The novels gave us the MT-AT spider-tank style walker, which makes a good deal more sense from an engineering standpoint as a tank that can climb vertical surfaces.
Things you need for a mech to be "realistic":
1) Small size. Bipedal units are desperately in need of a low center of gravity, and the square-cube law means that complex machines over a certain size simply cannot support themselves, at least not efficiently. I wouldn't make a mech more than 5-7 meters tall if I was paying any attention at all to physics. And this is to say nothing of ground pressure - you either need to make this lighter than we can today (see below) or give them enormous snowshoes.
2) Materials and energy science greater or different than the present day's. Bipedal humanoids are really inefficient when it comes to energy usage and armor weight, compared to tanks and other treaded/wheeled vehicles. You need a light, powerful powerplant and armor that can ignore small arms fire while not overloading your complex limbs. Speaking of which, engineering to make arms and legs as durable in practice as wheels and treads would also be a big plus.
3) Wheels and/or treads on the feet. Walking is all well and good for nimble maneuvering over broker terrain, but there is a reason humans don't walk everywhere if we can help it. "Skates" like in VOTOMS, Nadesico, or Code Geass are a big help in covering flat terrain as fast as a tank does.
4) A role other than "cooler-looking tank". Humanoid robots will never be better at being tanks than tanks are, because tanks are frankly perfected for their role of absorbing punishment and being the biggest gun on the ground. The most obvious use for a mech is being a non-flying gunship, able to take indirect routes through rough and/or urban terrain without the vulnerabilities that come with being a helicopter. There's also a lot of non-military applications for machines with hands, mainly in rescue and construction. There's shows about this, too (and in fact, Mobile Suits started out as space construction vehicles which were repurposed into walking weapons.)
5) Combined arms. Military mecha need air cover and infantry support just as much as tanks do, if not more. You can't have an army of just one unit type, no matter what it is.
6) Flying mecha are cool, but incredibly stupid. Transforming flying mecha slightly less so, but argh the wear and tear. See above about materials science.
A lot of this is less of a problem if we're talking about fighting exclusively in space
Benefits of bipedal armored units from a tactical (rather than storytelling) standpoint:
1) All-terrain capabilities (assuming you remembered to give them a respectable center of balance for stability)
2) Adaptability. A unit with hands is as versatile as an infantryman, but can carry much bigger sticks. A non-military unit with hands would be invaluable for rescue and construction, and I think this industry is where we'll see bipedal robots in the real world. Even without "hands", putting a gun out on an arm makes it much easier to hot-swap with a different gun than a tank barrel is.
3) Future control schemes may allow users to control machines with thought or even motion capture (for examples in existing mecha shows, see Evangelion, Nadesico, or any number of ludicrous super robot shows like G Gundam). This would obviously be easier if the machine they were controlling had roughly equivalent gross motor function to their own bodies.
4) Something with a gun on an arm can fire around corners or above cover. Tanks simply cannot. Vehicles with human- or animal-like legs can also move in all directions without turning, unlike wheeled or treaded ones. Sacrificing raw armor and firepower for mobility and ability to better utilize cover is why I suggested thinking of mecha as land-helicopters rather than walking tanks above.
5) Gundam's original excuse for putting limbs on things is you can fling your limbs about to change your orientation in space without having to use vernier thrusters (along with all combat taking place at point-blank and the weapons being evolved from construction equipment). There are better ways to do this than human-like limbs, but it's something.
And finally, regardless of everything I just said, the storytelling benefits of giant robots are numerous and obvious. They lend a sense of humanity to large-scale mechanized warfare, or look like giant superheroes, depending on tone of the show. They look just plain cool (except Godmars) and unlike anything we have in the real world, lending a sense of wonder and intimidation to a science fiction or even fantasy stories. As new technological developments, they can be the driving force behind a story or setting. And did I mention they look cool?Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2011-12-16 at 12:25 PM.
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2011-12-16, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
For close combat here's how I see things. Equalizing scale and performance as much as possible to focus on form lets consider a Blade Liger versus a RX-78-2 Gundam with a standard beam saber and shield: The Blade Liger moves in for the kill and Gundam catches its pounce on the shield then stabs the Liger with the beam saber.
When it comes to mimicking nature, nature provides no models with the reach advantage of human weapons or anything like a decent shield. Remember this is ignoring plausibility of performance and talking melee.
Now quadruped (or more) mobile weapons platforms are another matter entirely. They are vastly more realistic offering far fewer balancing concerns. These are mecha that are actually possible without major revolutions in engineering. I've seen video of a home built spider tank shape. They offer most of the terrain advantages without the problems facing mechanical bipeds. Though I question some of the inherent superior physical performance arguments as the largest predators known were bipedal.
Which incidentally gives the scale for plausible mecha sizes.
The Mechs I remember were ludicrously huge if I remember properly but do represent at least some plausible shapes. At least the Timberwolf anyways though its arms would have to be shortened to support anything with recoil I think.
For their nuclear reactor powered scale though they have performance that is no more realistic then anything Real Robot from anime.
Kevin J Anderson didn't write those books, he hasn't written anything in SW. And especially not in Dune. So I don't know what you are talking about. Also the pictures of said non-machines made them to spindly to be supported their legs took up less of their volume then any insect..
More plausible is the AT-PT designs I've seen which are bi-pedal but on much more robust legs for their size. Unsurprisingly they derive from a Zahn written tome.
Otherwise I feel you make good points.
3) Future control schemes may allow users to control machines with thought or even motion capture (for examples in existing mecha shows, see Evangelion, Nadesico, or any number of ludicrous super robot shows like G Gundam). This would obviously be easier if the machine they were controlling had roughly equivalent gross motor function to their own bodies.
Certainly the traditional two sticks makes no sense for the level of control we see. Nevermind the teenagers magically jumping into cockpits being able to do it.
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2011-12-16, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
And I have no idea where in the heck Dune came into this, or when I mentioned Kevin J. Anderson particularly. He did (unfortunately) write the Jedi Academy Trilogy of Star Wars novels, though, and thus is responsible for the MT-AT's conception.
And you're right, they look ridiculous, but still less ridiculous than AT-STs. My point, which I didn't really go and support in the rest of my post, was that multipedal mecha are a lot more workable than bipedal ones in terms of the first point I made about center of gravity and ground pressure.
I have also seen machines that will read electrical impulses from the brain without any invasive cybernetics with a fair degree of accuracy. Basically, an EEG that parses the information into commands rather than graphs (I am under the impression that's how those little hair clips in Evangelion were supposed to work, along with the entry plug as a whole). Hardware or wetware cybernetics like in Macross Frontier or Martian Successor Nadesico are also completely possible.
Really, the thing is, if you're taking something as complex as a human figure and dumbing down its functionality to the point were you can control it with an aircraft joystick and throttle, there's not a lot of point to making the vehicle humanoid in the first place. You'd need either brain-control or a more nuanced cockpit than what you see in most "real robot" anime, probably a combination of arm and hand motion capture (the original Full Metal Panic novel depiction of Arm Slaves, or those construction bots from Avatar), foot pedals, and voice commands.Spoiler
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2011-12-16, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
Eeh... I wouldn't have said so.
They are stated as being about 10-14 meters tall (taller than an AT-ST and considerably smaller than an AT-AT) and weighed between 20 and a 100 tons. (For comparison, a Challenger 2 MBT is eight metres long (and 12 with the gun barrel) and weighs about 60 tonnes/70tons.) The averages speeds were about 50-60kph to 80-90kph (with some up to 200kph for the really fast mechs with special technologies (i.e MASC)) - the bottom end of which is about the speed of a modern MBT. (For additional comparison, an F-14 Tomcat is about twenty metres long and masses in at about 27-33 tonnes and an F-22 is 18m and about 29-38 tonnes.)
So, while they are bigger than a tank, they are not massively bigger volumetrically, and arguably have an insanely low density for their size (unrealistically, if we're honest - though given how many derivations of "ton/tonne" there are, it's not impossible a BattleTech "ton" is something different altogether!) So them running at fair speeds on fusion power, given that, is not completely unreasonable. (Battletech is actually quite low-tech, if compared to even modern technology!) They also moved far less fluidly, and felt more like vehicles to me.
Note: I'm not considering target profile here (which is stupidly big by comparison, though not as big as a low-flying aircraft, to be fair...), only performance.
(Certainly they are not the levels of ludicrously huge as in some anime, or 40K's Titans.)
(By the by, the Mad Cat's primary configuration (why yes, I am a dirty IS-terminology using peasant, blame the cartoon) - which is the one used for all the models (both actual and for games and whatnot) carries lasers in the arms, so there would be no appreciable recoil to compensate for. Yes, I am nit-picking!)
Another random point worth noting is that you'd have to be a modest distance from a 12m tall BattleMech to shoot it with a regular tank gun, because of getting enough elevation on the gun (the same as a four-story building), which would have some advantages in wooded terrains (sorta) and heavily urbanised areas with tall buildings. (But really, the advantages of mechs over tanks is either very niche or mostly rule-of-cool. The advantage of mechs over grav-tanks is vastly more debatable, since the latter have even more of a mobility advantage, even in difficult terrain.)
Though, yes, the jump-jet technology is certainly more unrealistic, but I feel still several orders of magnitude less so than a typical bouncing-around-like-a-ninja-with-sword anime mecha. (I'm not saying all anime mecha are like that - and it would also be remiss of me not to point out that early BattleMechs were literally cribbed off...Macross, I think it was - but certainly, the larger porportion of mecha seem to be that way than BattleTech's more sedate, stilted movement.
(I look at it this way: a (non-direct-mind-to-mech-interface) piloted vehicle should not be able to out-agile a Decepticon ninja... (E.g. Bludgeon) At least not and maintain any level of credibility for me without serious levels of camp and/or humour...)
I think that's Soras' desperate attempt to block those books from his concious memory for those exact reasons (presumably KJA did a similar...job... on the Dune franchise!)
Incidently, QI had ASIMO (the most advanced humanoid robot so far created) as a guest star, where it demonstrated it's ability to go down stairs and to run (which was amazing) and it did a dance with Jo Brand (which was amazing and hilarious). Walkers are coming slowly.Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2011-12-16 at 02:48 PM.
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2011-12-16, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
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2011-12-16, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
When it comes to realistic mecha, I think nobody comes even close to Shirow Masamune. Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed have some of the most plausible legged vehicles and robots I've ever seen.
Okay, the Tachikoma in the anime going all out spiderman between skyscrapers while being invisible might be a bit of a stretch, but the design is still remarkable.
Oh wait, I totally forgott about the Mobile Fortresses in Appleseed. Those are among the most overblown mecha this side of Gurren Lagann.Last edited by Yora; 2011-12-16 at 03:09 PM.
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2011-12-16, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
Combining.
From Power Rangers to Gurren Lagann, most mechs usually combine with others to become more powerful.
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2011-12-16, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
I like my mecha unrealistic and impossible to use as feasible weapons of war in real life.
This means I can enjoy the story without the lingering feeling that something like them was or will be actually used in real life to kill people.
Also: non-humanoid mechs are boring. Tachikoma are cute but if they were devoid of their curious energetic AIs and just generic spider-bots, they'd have me yawning in 5 minutes.Last edited by tensai_oni; 2011-12-16 at 04:00 PM.
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
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2011-12-16, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
Combining.
EDIT:
Except for designs stolen from anime, BattleTech mecha are boring. If you want to design a tank with legs, just design a tank.Last edited by tensai_oni; 2011-12-16 at 04:04 PM.
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2011-12-16, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
My favourite take on this is from cthulhutech. They have mysterious phlebotinum engine that gives unparallelled energy/force field/whatever, and the engine give the pilots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception connection to their machine for some reason, and obviously, the way to use that so it's not making the machines awkward/to use the machine's potential is to make them humanoid.
Last edited by Fri; 2011-12-17 at 03:27 PM.
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2011-12-16, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
I did mention that in a later post.
It may be dervivative, but that doesn't mean it's not, in some cases, better. Personally, I think the Mad Cat is probably one of the best-looking of all the BT Mechs - I think there's a reaspn it's so iconic! I also find the less human-looking mech like the Maruader, Locust and Rifleman were better than the more human-looking ones. (Or whatever they are called in whatever anime it was they were from - was it Macross or Robotech, I have no idea?)
(And to be fair, the later BattleTech stuff did get it's own style, even if throughout the quality of mech designs was a bit variable.)
Anyway, the main thing for me is that in BT is that they move in a manner I find consistent with manned vehicles, which I don't think they did in their original source material. (I could, of course, be wrong. As you may have gathered, I'm not a big giant robot fan, overall, I'm more of a starship Lich. Nor am I a particularly widely-watched anime buff - apart from the famous ones, I'd be hard pressed to list many, so it's entirely possible I haven't watched the right animes.)
Conversely, I find the more human a mecha looks, the less I like it. (To be fair, I'm a vehicle freak and always has been, and the main point of that is emphatically NOT being people.)
I also don't think of stuff like Transformers as mecha, I should add, so rightly or wrongly - I don't hold them to quite the same constraints.Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2011-12-16 at 04:16 PM.
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2011-12-16, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
Hey Fri, want to play a game of CthulhuTech if I get bored enough? I've wanted to do Masks of Nyarlathotep IN THE FUTURE forever now.
Also, your link is wrong.
Regarding Battletech: I'm sorry, but those are some of the few giant robots out there that completely bore me to tears, and just because something looks clunky and dull doesn't make it realistic.Spoiler
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2011-12-16, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
@Fri:
?
@Aotrs:
If you like real life vehicles then of course mecha will annoy you. Because giant robots and realistic - you can pick only one. Even small ones like VOTOMs are still unrealistic, so let's just shed pretense and make them look cool instead. As long as the way these machines are used is plausible enough not to ruin my suspension of disbelief.
The only problem here is that Japan seems physically incapable of making a vehicle combat-based show that is NOT about giant robots, so if you want an anime like that you're out of luck. But even then there are some exceptions. Such as Yukikaze or Area 88 for fighter jets. Or you can take the best of the worlds with Macross.Last edited by tensai_oni; 2011-12-16 at 04:25 PM.
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
CthulhuTech takes a lot of elements from Neon Genesis Evangelion, as it should. The whole body-synch with your mech thing, though, applies to anything with a Dimensional Engine (D-Engine), not just the bio-technological cybernetic monsters purposed as overpowered mecha called Engels and piloted by cybernetic crazy people (original concept do not steal).
Super Gundam. Also the original Gundam, ZZ, Victory, Impulse...okay, screw Impulse, but you know what I mean. Although those were all automated combiners, unlike Super Gundam which hypothetically has two cockpits.
Wait, is 00 Gundam a real robot? Regardless, Gundam Arios/GN Archer is.Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2011-12-16 at 04:32 PM.
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2011-12-16, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
Er, right, brainfart. There are no real robot combiners that follow the "1 robot + 1 robot = a bigger robot" principle though. All of them are either "1 fighter jet + several independently useless modules = 1 robot" or "1 robot + 1 piloted module = robot with module". Replace fighter jet with car for Xabungle.
Last edited by Tengu_temp; 2011-12-16 at 04:33 PM.
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
May I register Ghost in the Shell as one of the exceptions, particularly considering none of the vehicular 'robots' are humanoid, and all attempt to be logical progressions of real world combat vehicles into drone automation (albeit with the shift from regular tank into a multiped format)
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2011-12-16, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
Well, now I know about a (debatably) real robot example then. Still, combining is mostly a super robot feature.
As for Battletech (and the majority of other settings with similar designs), I gave my opinion on it some time ago already, and it's pretty much what Nerdo and Tensai Oni said. I don't find its typical designs of barely-humanoid weapon platforms on legs cool, and they don't have the advantage of realism either because large bipedal combat machines are not realistically viable, period.Last edited by Tengu_temp; 2011-12-16 at 04:59 PM.
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2011-12-16, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
I buy an AT-ST standing I'm not sure I buy the MT-ATs doing that. Though yes in general spider tanks are the most realistic mecha design.
Really, the thing is, if you're taking something as complex as a human figure and dumbing down its functionality to the point were you can control it with an aircraft joystick and throttle, there's not a lot of point to making the vehicle humanoid in the first place. You'd need either brain-control or a more nuanced cockpit than what you see in most "real robot" anime, probably a combination of arm and hand motion capture (the original Full Metal Panic novel depiction of Arm Slaves, or those construction bots from Avatar), foot pedals, and voice commands.
I distinctly remember being able to step on tanks in the game I played of the series (so help me I don't recall which) and would point out we'd need more dimensions. Gameplay separation from official stats maybe. but to be able to step on you'd need to be almost as long in one foot. But that foot is supporting far more weight.
And yeah too big. For comparison an elephant is large quadruped that cannot properly run (though it can get up to a good clip) and is a somewhere around 3m tall. A T-rex is maybe 5-6m tall and could probably run but at 10m long but a lot slimmer then a tank. And that's the sort of scale that becomes plausible. To size with a tank, but hopefully lower in terms of volume and weight.
Though, yes, the jump-jet technology is certainly more unrealistic, but I feel still several orders of magnitude less so than a typical bouncing-around-like-a-ninja-with-sword anime mecha. (I'm not saying all anime mecha are like that - and it would also be remiss of me not to point out that early BattleMechs were literally cribbed off...Macross, I think it was - but certainly, the larger porportion of mecha seem to be that way than BattleTech's more sedate, stilted movement.
Mind you even modern battle tanks can be menaced with man-portable arms. And a minor hit from an RPG that takes out say a tread will imobilize a tank but topple a mech inflicting even more damage. Never mind something as big as the battlefield dominating mecha should be getting airstrikes called in on them to great success.
So if you don't have that sort of smooth performance speed then the only real advantage to a mecha come in places where tanks are impractical, like hilly terrain, urban environments, or some forests.
Speed eliminates a lot of that that because if one can match a reasonable overland speed with pin-point maneuverability you can say dance around a tank and kill it. Code Geass has an good example of that in its opening bit. Doesn't quite answer the airstrikes, but then Gundam answers that with Minovsky particles making combat in largely sight only, particularly with no guided ordinance.
I think that's Soras' desperate attempt to block those books from his concious memory for those exact reasons (presumably KJA did a similar...job... on the Dune franchise!)
GAHH blocking the pain.... blocking the pain... it didn't happen!
Technically the original Gundam models, mind you its combining was the Core Fighter and two otherwise useless pieces.
Also the current Gundam AGE also has a modular customizable Gundam. But its running towards being as super-roboty as Gundam 00 turned out. Why I preferr Gundam Unicorn which at least has fairly logical progression of Newtype-tech.
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I prefer AGE to Unicorn, because the latter has too much whitewashing of Zeon and painting the Federation black, in ways that completely disregard already established canon - especially in episode 4. Which is bad when you remember how a lot of the Japanese Gundam fandom, including the creator of Gundam Unicorn, sees Zeon. PM for details.
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2011-12-16, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
Well I'd comment on Gundam AGE whitewashing their Zeon equivalent into gangsters... but I will at least let the plot play out to see if the UE deserve it more.
And I'm not sure that Unicorn is particularly better. I mean it was what the first trip to Luna II barely into the original series where Bright and Co ended up about being arrested for the monstrous crime of bringing refugees aboard their vessel by the Federation, so them being pricks isn't new. Nevermind y'know the Titans et all. And for Zeon, CCA didn't do that already?
Exception the Garencieres crew I'm not sure Zeon is getting off easy in Unicorn.
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2011-12-16, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Location
- Germany
Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2011-12-16, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Mecha in media- good and bad points:
They always have missiles. As if being 100 feet tall wasn't enough.