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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    One of the most compelling ways to say a class is really strong, is when you look at it, you don't see a reason to do anything else. This is just something I read once, is all.
    Fair enough, but should you need a reason to do anything else? Shouldn't the only reason to multi-class be for reasons of fluff, not crunch? Prestige classes are supposed to be highly focused, not something everyone takes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    Well, I suppose that does make good sense. I suppose it's just my anti-powergamer, attempting to come out.
    Understandable. And this class is very obviously strong out-of-the-box, which tends to set off alarms a lot faster than other, less obviously strong, options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    Hellfire is +9d6 and the Chasuble adds 2d6, so isn't that 11d6 per blast? +4d6 for the Scepter once? The Con cost is negligible, merely because of Eternal Wands and Bard Spells.
    Hellfire adds 2d6 per class level, for a maximum of +6d6. The Con cost is avoidable, but that does demand resources which could be spent elsewhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    Yes, but disintegrate allows for a save. We didn't even have to essence or shape this blast.
    While EB will either demand either an attack roll or a save, so it's not an auto hit. And in non-magic terms, consider a Rogue - 7 attacks with a minimum of +9d6 to each (63d6).

    I suspect it may be a personal ruling, but I've always considered a Hellfire Blast to be unmodifiable. Either the Hellfire Blast is a Eldritch Essence, which counts as the only Essence, or it changes the EB into a HB, and no where does it say that you can apply eldritch essences to a HB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    This is what I like about Pathfinder against 3.5, personally. Power without need for eighteen sourcebooks.
    I don't have any experience with Pathfinder outside of some browsing, but from what I've seen I generally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    Well it is a bit crazy, and well the capstones are pretty crazy on all of the Heritages I've seen. I mean what other 3.5 class gets as much innately as this warlock. Just saying.
    By and large, 3.5 capstones are complete jokes. I feel that this has given people a very skewed perception of capstones. You just spent 20 levels in a single class, that dedication should be rewarded. Not with a piddling bonus feat or 1 more spell or even nothing at all, but with something unique and powerful, something defining that you look forward to. This is a philosophy I apply to all by designs, a look through my other works will show that quickly enough!

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    I am the only Warlock player in my group. Ever. The games I am in atm have no place for a Warlock, but I am running a Greyhawk based game that I will be testing the power, and versatility of these Warlocks, as villains. I'll let you know how many TPKs I get. :p
    I look forward to the stories! Be careful though - if your groups aren't really into optimization at all, think Core is balanced, play clerics as heal-bots, and so on, then this class may simply be too strong. This is intended more for groups that find Tome of Battle fair and balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    I didn't mean the Heritages across each other, but rather just the overall power increase is pretty incredible. I mean, I don't even know what to say about that other than, Balance is something I don't really respect in DnD, I mainly just point out things that seem to skew it way too hard, one way or another.
    Understandable, and I appreciate the input. The abilities are certainly strong, and playtesting could easily reveal things that need to be tweaked. The balance I'm most concerned with, to be honest, is the various heritages compared to each other. I think they're all more or less in the same realm (save perhaps draconic), but that's something that I'd need much input into to fine tune.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Draconic is really powerful. You should probably add, something about Xp costs, as they aren't considered 'material components' and Spell-like abilities normally don't expend Xp, if I remember correctly. Otherwise, you could take your last Spell Secret as Limited Wish. Versatility thy name is Warlock.

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
    Draconic is really powerful. You should probably add, something about Xp costs, as they aren't considered 'material components' and Spell-like abilities normally don't expend Xp, if I remember correctly. Otherwise, you could take your last Spell Secret as Limited Wish. Versatility thy name is Warlock.
    That's what I was missing! I thought about adding a clause nixing XP spells, but I thought "Eh, if they want to constantly drain their XP, why stop them?" Of course, SLAs ignore XP requirements, and that changes the game completely! I shall edit that presently.
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2012-02-08 at 06:42 PM.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Yeah, I think it costs unless specifically stated otherwise, as I believe it is with the Archmage ability.

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    I would say the Fey dr 5/Cold iron is very strong for its level as well. I dont know how I would deal with it, but as is, I think its a bit much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    ...magical trumps mundane so often that mundane really needs to be able to give magic a good kick in the junk now and then.

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    It certainly is strong at 2nd level, which is part of why it's the only lineage to gain DR at 2nd level. It may be better if I shifted it with Woodland Stride.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    This is a bit funny cause i was talking with my DM the other day about having distinctions between the different bloodlines of a warlock and this is just great, its giving the warlock that flavor that it needed.

    I do have a question about it with the class and prc's now was it still intended to have the class advance normally as the original one did by just increasing its eb and invocations? or are you thinking of having it increase the heritage abilities as well in addition?

    Also can't wait to see what you have for the elemental heritage.

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by exdragonking View Post
    This is a bit funny cause i was talking with my DM the other day about having distinctions between the different bloodlines of a warlock and this is just great, its giving the warlock that flavor that it needed.

    I do have a question about it with the class and prc's now was it still intended to have the class advance normally as the original one did by just increasing its eb and invocations? or are you thinking of having it increase the heritage abilities as well in addition?

    Also can't wait to see what you have for the elemental heritage.
    I hope your DM approves it then!

    The class advances (almost) just as it did originally. Advancing in a class that grants +1 level of existing spellcasting class advanecs your EB damage, invocations known, and grades you can learn, that's it. If you want the powers of your heritage, you remain in the class that advances said abilities, so no PrCs.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    And we have another update! The main updates this month are a bunch more invocations, though some of the class features have been tweaked as well. No new heritages, but I'll get there.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Looking through the list of Invocations, there is no mention of those in Complete Mage (and there are some really good ones in there like Crawling Eye). Is this a deliberate exclusion, or just something you haven't gotten round to doing?
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    So a while back my weekly gaming group decided to start a new D&D campaign from level one. I got the DM to approve this warlock rewrite and have been playing a Human with the Giant/Titan heritage, who seems to be growing an inch and a half taller every few nights (aka, each time we level). XD

    Thus far I have found the acquisition of a single martial weapon proficiency at second level to drum up some hilarious moments, such as when at first level the character pulled out a rapier and then kinda looked at it for a few and wondered why he even had one when he couldn't even use it effectively (and subsequently just blasting a mook with EB). Picked rapier because I had originally intended to go Shadow Blade with it and get 3 stats to damage, but I'm diverging from that path.

    Acquisition of Int to damage puts me about on par with the barbarian (who never seems to rage) for melee damage potential. Crafted myself a weapon, and did so using Seerow's custom weapons and alternate masterwork rules (its around here somewhere...).

    I know I had a point when I started this post... oh well, I'll keep you updated on how the warlocking goes.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Looking through the list of Invocations, there is no mention of those in Complete Mage (and there are some really good ones in there like Crawling Eye). Is this a deliberate exclusion, or just something you haven't gotten round to doing?
    Haven't gotten to yet. Complete Mage, Cityscape, Magic of Incarnum, and Drow of the Underdark are the other books I'm aware of that contain official invocations. They should all be covered in the next update. I'm sure there are some scattered through Dragon Magazines, and I'll include them as I come across them. In addition I'm working on plenty of homebrew invocations, they're just taking a back seat to updating the official ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    So a while back my weekly gaming group decided to start a new D&D campaign from level one. I got the DM to approve this warlock rewrite and have been playing a Human with the Giant/Titan heritage, who seems to be growing an inch and a half taller every few nights (aka, each time we level). XD

    Thus far I have found the acquisition of a single martial weapon proficiency at second level to drum up some hilarious moments, such as when at first level the character pulled out a rapier and then kinda looked at it for a few and wondered why he even had one when he couldn't even use it effectively (and subsequently just blasting a mook with EB). Picked rapier because I had originally intended to go Shadow Blade with it and get 3 stats to damage, but I'm diverging from that path.

    Acquisition of Int to damage puts me about on par with the barbarian (who never seems to rage) for melee damage potential. Crafted myself a weapon, and did so using Seerow's custom weapons and alternate masterwork rules (its around here somewhere...).

    I know I had a point when I started this post... oh well, I'll keep you updated on how the warlocking goes.
    Sounds awesome. Even more awesome, it sounds like the class is playing fairly well...? Being about on par with a Barbarian that doesn't often rage sounds like it isn't overpowering, at least at the moment. What invocations are you using? And while I can't promise swift updates, I can promise that additional invocations will be added, as well as the occasional feat and item. (I've got a few more heritages brewing as well, but that is obviously less relevant in this case)

    I can't wait to hear about more adventures of your Titan'lock!
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2012-03-10 at 11:07 PM.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Eldritch Blow, Sickening Blast, Beguiling Influence, See the Unseen, and Spiderwalk.

    And, of course, I picked up spiderwalk right after the encounter with 4 harpoon spiders, 5 monstrous spiders, and 4 ettercaps because, like genius adventurers we herded them all into one room. Only survived that encounter because of the Precocious Apprentice/Fiery Burst Batman, who was the only one left standing at the end... and must have killed 5 or 6 enemies by himself. (We may have also been smiled on by the dice gods fairly heavily that night, for 5 harpoons all missed said wizard over the course of the fight.)
    >.> Its ironic because of the immune to webs part, and the fact that I got webbed like 3 times. >.<

    Even with the Int to DCs, I don't think a single enemy has failed the fort save for the sickening blast... or lived through the blast to even care about the save.

    Overall, yeah, playing fairly well. Have another game next tuesday, but I can't seem to remember if we're playing D&D or Mage...
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Eldritch Blow, Sickening Blast, Beguiling Influence, See the Unseen, and Spiderwalk.

    And, of course, I picked up spiderwalk right after the encounter with 4 harpoon spiders, 5 monstrous spiders, and 4 ettercaps because, like genius adventurers we herded them all into one room. Only survived that encounter because of the Precocious Apprentice/Fiery Burst Batman, who was the only one left standing at the end... and must have killed 5 or 6 enemies by himself. (We may have also been smiled on by the dice gods fairly heavily that night, for 5 harpoons all missed said wizard over the course of the fight.)
    >.> Its ironic because of the immune to webs part, and the fact that I got webbed like 3 times. >.<

    Even with the Int to DCs, I don't think a single enemy has failed the fort save for the sickening blast... or lived through the blast to even care about the save.

    Overall, yeah, playing fairly well. Have another game next tuesday, but I can't seem to remember if we're playing D&D or Mage...
    Lol, nothing like hindsight! Interesting about the sickening blast (don't forget that since you're usinga shape and an essence the DC goes up by 1!), but Titan and Eldritch Blow are more damage focused - I imagine it'd stick more if you were using a shape that's an area like Edlritch Line, so the damage wouldn't be as concentrated (and perhaps Ability Focus EB?).

    Note that I just updated Eldritch Blow. It's a bit wordier, but I think it works better and isn't assuming anything. Also, it now bypasses SR, so I think you'll appreciate it. Thoughts?
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Aye, it might stick better, but without any AoE shapes available yet, thats not really possible. XP But aye, the sickening blast is mostly just there because there really isn't a reason not to tack on an essence.

    Hmm... the Eldritch Blow, it used to have a swift action, aye? Hmm... I think the wording as is works fairly well, but would mean that in my case when I get up to 6th level, I won't be able to use Entwined Assault with an Eldritch Blow. Somewhat sad, but if I'm remembering correctly and it used to be a swift action to Eldritch Blow I wouldn't have been able to do it anyway, this change just gives more options (ie, "go for Eldritch Blow this round, or pop this guy with my spear and then blast that guy over there"). And the bypassing SR is always useful. Always.

    Hmm... an Eldritch Blow/Combat Reflexes build would be interesting indeed. Well, assuming my tired brain isn't misunderstanding/malfunctioning. Sleeeeeepy.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Which brings up the question: should I make an AoE Least Blast Shape? Maybe a Fiery Burst-esque 5' radius with a 30' range or something?

    It did used to eat a swift action, which I thought didn't really jive as a Blast shape (it would've been fine as a normal invocation, but it really feels like a blast shape, ya know?). I hadn't considered that interaction with Entwined Assault...and now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know if I want Entwined Assualt to be mixable with it or not (first impression is I do, but I'm digesting). The intent was just to nix Eldritch Volleys, and Titans really should be enjoying their abilities, and Eldritch Blow is a natural choice for them. Hmmm...

    And yes, it would be. Of course, Eldrtich Beam lends itself to that more, given that it makes touch attacks. But a spiked chain infused with eldritch blow could be quite potent.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Well, I'm not sure how much value my opinion is going to be, since we seem to value slightly different balance points (mine is a bit lower than yours, though not by a ton), but I've read through and I've got a lot of experience playing Warlocks at a fairly wide level range, so here we go...

    The base class features are all very flavourful and reasonable. Scaling Detect Magic into the Arcane Sight tree is an amazing idea, and I wholeheartedly approve. Changes to the Warlock's skills are also very well done. Probably the only potential issue here is Arcane Soul, which vastly improves the Warlock's power level when using spell-trigger items and allows Titan-blooded Warlocks to create scrolls of spells one level higher than any other class using Imbue Item. This can cause some game imbalances, obviously; having access to Greater Teleport, Greater Plane Shift and/or True Seeing before anyone reasonably should can cause serious problems for GMs not aware of the possibility and for prewritten modules. Changing the ability to apply only when activating items or using invocations would remove these problems.

    The Aberrant Lineage's Unnatural Essense is more than a little overpowered at 2nd level, with a -2 on Attack and Damage combined with a half-decent AC to begin with largely invalidating most CR1-2 monsters. I'd suggest swapping it with the much less disruptive Mind Strike, and doing the same with the first Improved Unnatural Essense and Aberrant Resistance. Otherwise there's nothing too troublesome here. Great Lineage. Angelic is fine; the Capstone is amazingly powerful, but it's a capstone. It should be.

    ...Gah. Just killed the rest of my post. Point-form comments:
    Angelic needs to be able to suppress or stop its' protective aura. You don't want to have to have a Dispel ready every time you want to stop blocking out low-level spells with Globe of Invulnerablility.
    Demonic should not be able to match or exceed the damage of a mid-op Charger or Blaster without making use of limited-per-day resources. Both of the above possess limitations and drawbacks that the Warlock does not. Also, at 20th level deals enough damage on average with vitriolic blast+greater Chasuble of FP to one-shot most CR20 enemies. Not a good out-of-the-box balance point, especially considering potential to add more damage with Empower SLA, Gloves of Eld. Ad. and Warlock's scepter. All combined, damage-per-round exceeds 800 at minimal cost, with virtually no chance of failure against all not immune to acid. Needs to be scaled back, or unplayable outside of high-op games.
    Draconic should try to limit or prevent Conjuration and Transmutation spells with permanent effects from being chosen. PAO, Stone Shape and Wall of Stone are good enough without being usable thousands of times per day.
    Fey should switch the DR and Woodland Stride. DR5 at level 2 will wreck published adventures and give your DM fits trying to challenge you without killing your allies. Also, consider replacing the Improved SR with the ability to raise and lower SR as a Free action that can be taken out of turn. SR15+level has heavy implications for both enemy and friendly casters, and SR10+level is usually enough to discourage SR: Yes spells to begin with. I'd also suggest allowing creatures with True Seeing effects to make Disbelief saves as soon as they perceive the illusion; otherwise many illusions become impossible to see through. Effect remains very powerful.
    Infernal currently does not allow a saving throw to avoid Suggestion effect; wording causes targets to be treated as if they already failed a save. I suggest including a save, and causing a successful save to make the target immune for at least a minute or two. As-is, effect will break every campaign involving any intrigue or diplomacy.
    Titan is fine and damned cool. Capstone is incredibly powerful, but again, it's a capstone.
    Undead may be too powerful as a 2-level dip for great immunities and Invocations. Suggest moving Poison immunity to level 8. You should clarify whether Life Sight allows you to see Invisible creatures; I would suggest no. Final stage of Improved Deathly Caress needs to have a saving throw to avoid Paralysis; otherwise, automatic victory against anyone not immune. Not good for game-flow.

    Shapes/Essences: Not much changed. The best Essences and Shapes are the same as they were, with Burst replacing Cone. Good idea to seperate these from Invocations; my favorite part of the rewrite.

    Invocations:
    Least: Scalding Gust is the best Invocation by far at level 1-2, allowing automatic no-save damage scaling better than Magic Missile at-will. Suggest making damage equal to .5*CL*3 rounded down for better balance at low levels. Earthen Grasp is also extremely powerful at level 1, auto-beating most other casters. Suggest returning it to the old version; it was already worth taking. Otherwise, everything looks good.
    Lesser: Stony Grasp needed a bit of a boost to compete, so probably deserves the additions made. Humanoid Shape is overpowered for DFAs and it's overpowered here. Oh well. No Relentless Dispelling makes me a sad panda.
    Greater: Enervating Shadow provides Concealment that can never be ignored, which conveniently makes you outright immune to Sneak Attack, Skirmish and Sudden Strike. Combined with Darkness and the Infernal Lineage, grants 50% miss chance against all attacks, no matter what. As-is, it's an auto-pick and by far the best of the Invocations. Easily equivalent in power to a 9th-level spell. Needs nerfing, not sure how. Otherwise, not too much has changed. Love the change to Devour Magic
    Anscestral: Make sure to add clarification to Dark Discorporation allowing you to dismiss it. Not being able to un-discorporate by RAW is a big problem with the official Dark Discorporation spell. I'd suggest giving the Angelic anscestry access to Impenetrable Barrier. As-is, Titan has only 3 invocations to choose from at this level, suggest giving him Word of Changing to reflect mastery of physical form.

    Sorry for the point-form review and terseness. It's already way past my bed time, and I didn't have time to be more thourough.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    What a response! I'll be spoilering my reply for length considerations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Well, I'm not sure how much value my opinion is going to be, since we seem to value slightly different balance points (mine is a bit lower than yours, though not by a ton), but I've read through and I've got a lot of experience playing Warlocks at a fairly wide level range, so here we go...
    Even if we have slightly different balance points, extra eyes are always appreciated. Particularly experienced eyes. And I love in-depth critiques, so thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Probably the only potential issue here is Arcane Soul, which vastly improves the Warlock's power level when using spell-trigger items and allows Titan-blooded Warlocks to create scrolls of spells one level higher than any other class using Imbue Item. This can cause some game imbalances, obviously; having access to Greater Teleport, Greater Plane Shift and/or True Seeing before anyone reasonably should can cause serious problems for GMs not aware of the possibility and for prewritten modules. Changing the ability to apply only when activating items or using invocations would remove these problems.
    Caster level has nothing to do with using Imbue Item. Titan warlocks can start trying to scribe 9th level scrolls at 12th level if they want to. Imbue Item has always been like that. I think you're not only worrying overmuch about the crafting ability (which is more limited by XP and Gold available, plus the feat cost), but forgetting that you can simply buy the scrolls you need. By 12th level scrolls of 7+ level spells are easily affordable. Heck, you can pick up Scout's Headband for 3400 gp and have true seeing up to a minute per day. Any prewritten modules set at 12th+ level should be prepared for these spells, as they are a reality of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    The Aberrant Lineage's Unnatural Essense is more than a little overpowered at 2nd level, with a -2 on Attack and Damage combined with a half-decent AC to begin with largely invalidating most CR1-2 monsters. I'd suggest swapping it with the much less disruptive Mind Strike, and doing the same with the first Improved Unnatural Essense and Aberrant Resistance. Otherwise there's nothing too troublesome here. Great Lineage.
    Point. Additionally, it makes Mind Strike more...striking, as confusion is not a common effect at level 2, so it'll stand out nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Angelic is fine; the Capstone is amazingly powerful, but it's a capstone. It should be.

    ...Gah. Just killed the rest of my post. Point-form comments:
    Angelic needs to be able to suppress or stop its' protective aura. You don't want to have to have a Dispel ready every time you want to stop blocking out low-level spells with Globe of Invulnerablility.
    I glad to meet someone who shares my opinions on capstones.

    Good catch on suppressing the aura, I'll add that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Demonic should not be able to match or exceed the damage of a mid-op Charger or Blaster without making use of limited-per-day resources. Both of the above possess limitations and drawbacks that the Warlock does not. Also, at 20th level deals enough damage on average with vitriolic blast+greater Chasuble of FP to one-shot most CR20 enemies. Not a good out-of-the-box balance point, especially considering potential to add more damage with Empower SLA, Gloves of Eld. Ad. and Warlock's scepter. All combined, damage-per-round exceeds 800 at minimal cost, with virtually no chance of failure against all not immune to acid. Needs to be scaled back, or unplayable outside of high-op games.
    You raise a good point here, though I think the math may be off, due to misunderstandings. Assuming a Greater Stole of Arcane Power, a Demonic Warlock can fire off 5 EBs, for a total 60d12 or ~390 damage. Assuming he uses all three Empower SLAs, that adds an extra ~117 damage. Vitriolic Blast would add ~35 acid damage per round for 3 rounds. Warlock's Scepter And the Gloves don't work, as they require a swift action to activate. I may need to update that so it doesn't compete with Eldritch Volley. Regardless, even if it did work it would only add ~17.5 damage.

    Note that as it stands, Stole of Arcane Power is the only thing that adds extra dice to an EB, everything else adds a preset amount of damage. Vitriolic Blast still only does 2d6 acid damage per round, even if your EB deals d12s of damage.

    Regardless of this, you're correct that it's an excessive amount of damage. I didn't readjust it at all when I added an extra attack to Eldritch Volley, and didn't anticipate 5 EBs a round. I may need to do something other than iterative attacks for the demonic capstone, as that seems to be the biggest problem. And to be honest, I'm still undecided on if Eldritch Volley should grant 2 extra attacks at high levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Draconic should try to limit or prevent Conjuration and Transmutation spells with permanent effects from being chosen. PAO, Stone Shape and Wall of Stone are good enough without being usable thousands of times per day.
    Hmm...True that spells like those are some of the most awesome choices you could make, but the question is how to limit it? Limiting it by Range, Target, or Duration catches way too many viable options in the crossfire. Honestly I'm inclined to leave it as is, but make a note that DMs should feel free to nix choices that are too strong for their game, like the spells you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Fey should switch the DR and Woodland Stride. DR5 at level 2 will wreck published adventures and give your DM fits trying to challenge you without killing your allies. Also, consider replacing the Improved SR with the ability to raise and lower SR as a Free action that can be taken out of turn. SR15+level has heavy implications for both enemy and friendly casters, and SR10+level is usually enough to discourage SR: Yes spells to begin with. I'd also suggest allowing creatures with True Seeing effects to make Disbelief saves as soon as they perceive the illusion; otherwise many illusions become impossible to see through. Effect remains very powerful.
    While I disagree that DMs would have fits harming a lv 2 Fey Warlock with published modules (just given enemies cold iron weapons!), you aren't the first person to note how awesome DR is at that level. I think I'll switch the two for that reason and because woodland stride is more feyish for an introductory ability.

    Fair enough point that SR10+ is usually enough. I don't think that suppressing/raising SR whenever is strong enough at that level...perhaps when a spell fails to penetrate their SR they can create a major image as an immediate action that make it appear as if the warlock had bee affected...

    I know that disbelieving illusions is a grey area ruled by DM preference, but I can see automatically getting a save upon viewing (many DMs play this way with illusions straight up).

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Infernal currently does not allow a saving throw to avoid Suggestion effect; wording causes targets to be treated as if they already failed a save. I suggest including a save, and causing a successful save to make the target immune for at least a minute or two. As-is, effect will break every campaign involving any intrigue or diplomacy.
    Yeees, I can do that. They should be offered saves, and temporary immunity sounds fine. Particularly since saving against it won't screw a warlock...at least as long as their suggestions are reasonable enough that one could conceivably make them without magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Titan is fine and damned cool. Capstone is incredibly powerful, but again, it's a capstone.
    Yeah, I'm quite happy of how Titan turned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Undead may be too powerful as a 2-level dip for great immunities and Invocations. Suggest moving Poison immunity to level 8. You should clarify whether Life Sight allows you to see Invisible creatures; I would suggest no. Final stage of Improved Deathly Caress needs to have a saving throw to avoid Paralysis; otherwise, automatic victory against anyone not immune. Not good for game-flow.
    Hmm, that is a powerful dip. I might reduce the bonus to saving throws to +2, given that immunity to poison has just about become irrelevant by 8th level.

    Point on Life Sight.

    While I disagree on automatic victory (see White Raven Hammer), it should offer a save. Paralysis is better than Stun, and at 16th level that is just super powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Scalding Gust is the best Invocation by far at level 1-2, allowing automatic no-save damage scaling better than Magic Missile at-will. Suggest making damage equal to .5*CL*3 rounded down for better balance at low levels.
    I'm not sure I agree. 2/4/6 damage unconditionally is nice, but awfully low-impact. Scalding Gust as it originally stood was terrible precisely because the damage it dealt had virtually no impact. And dealing 1/3/4/6/7 damage at low levels both requires more complex math, and is not something very good to do with your standard action. The utility of gust of wind just doesn't make up for it. And any shenanigans, like a readied action against small targets to just kite them to death works regardless of the damage dealt.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Earthen Grasp is also extremely powerful at level 1, auto-beating most other casters. Suggest returning it to the old version; it was already worth taking. Otherwise, everything looks good.
    Already worth taking? It provoked when attempting a grapple and only deals damage on a successful pin. I agree it's good against casters. Removing the reflex save doesn't do much to make it worse against casters, it just makes it less good against melee brutes. Though perhaps it should be limited to only one at a time, like other invocations that conjure things.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Humanoid Shape is overpowered for DFAs and it's overpowered here. Oh well.
    For those that want to abuse Alter Shape, they can. For those that want to just have the utility intended, they can. I'm not going to try and fix the polymorph system, I'll just let DM's previous established preferences cover it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    No Relentless Dispelling makes me a sad panda.
    Relentless Dispelling is in Complete Mage, and will be included.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Enervating Shadow provides Concealment that can never be ignored, which conveniently makes you outright immune to Sneak Attack, Skirmish and Sudden Strike. Combined with Darkness and the Infernal Lineage, grants 50% miss chance against all attacks, no matter what. As-is, it's an auto-pick and by far the best of the Invocations. Easily equivalent in power to a 9th-level spell. Needs nerfing, not sure how.
    Never be ignored? It only last for 5 rounds and can be seen through by anything that sees through magical darkness. Perhaps I just need to remove the partial concealment clause, as that is something I added to the original. If I do though, how do I prevent the invocation from being completely useless in brightly lit areas (which are common enough for adventuring parties)?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Love the change to Devour Magic
    Seriously. A range of touch made Devour Magic so freakin' impractical. Now, while it has a limited range, at least it has range! Plus, you can eat your own stuff for temp HP if you want. I figure if you're spending your turn doing that and not attacking that's ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Anscestral: Make sure to add clarification to Dark Discorporation allowing you to dismiss it. Not being able to un-discorporate by RAW is a big problem with the official Dark Discorporation spell.
    Ahh yes, because you can't use standard actions while in bat form. I'll add a clause.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    I'd suggest giving the Angelic anscestry access to Impenetrable Barrier. As-is, Titan has only 3 invocations to choose from at this level, suggest giving him Word of Changing to reflect mastery of physical form.
    Ancestral access is somewhat limited at this point, particularly for the non-evil lineages, but that will change as I start adding homebrew invocations. I could see Angelic have Impenetrable Barriar, if it weren't for the total blackness of it. But that's probably just me being weird and having fluff hang ups.

    I can see Titans with Word of Changing - They have powerful forms and altering others is a pretty distilled essence of arcane might.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Sorry for the point-form review and terseness. It's already way past my bed time, and I didn't have time to be more thourough.
    I loved your review! point-by-point is generally the way I approach critiques myself, and you had a whole lot of great thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to go through it all!
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2012-03-11 at 04:06 PM.
    My homebrew - If you use it, please let me know how it goes!

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    What a response! I'll be spoilering my reply for length considerations.
    Then I shall do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Even if we have slightly different balance points, extra eyes are always appreciated. Particularly experienced eyes. And I love in-depth critiques, so thank you!
    You're welcome. I'm playing a Warlock right now in a 3.5 game, so this was of particular interest to me. Besides, I've got a bit of a homebrew project in the works right now, and looking at and discussing other people's work seemed like a good way to help familiarize myself with the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Caster level has nothing to do with using Imbue Item.
    Ah, I had thought you still needed to meet the minimum CL requirement for the item to make it, since Imbue Item only waives the spell prerequisite. I guess you're right, though; throwing time and money at the problem to make yourself a quasi-tier 2 shouldn't be too big a deal in most games.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Point. Additionally, it makes Mind Strike more...striking, as confusion is not a common effect at level 2, so it'll stand out nicely.
    Indeed. I've never felt Confusion to be as powerful as the designers do, and even with no save attached a single round of it isn't going to do more than make the GM shake his head a little bit. Once per fight and being mind affecting, it's a really great way of introducing the mind-warping powers of the Aberrant Warlock without really overpowering anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    I glad to meet someone who shares my opinions on capstones.

    Good catch on suppressing the aura, I'll add that.
    The day I see a capstone as powerful than what Paizo gave Arcane bloodline sorcerers in Pathfinder is the day I see a capstone that's too broken to use (if you're not aware, they can substitute any number of spell slots totalling to 3 or more spell levels for expending a charge or use on a magic item. Turning a Scroll of Wish into the end of game balance forever). None of these even approach that level. Besides, it's 20 levels of a base class. Most campaigns ended 10 levels ago or so, and almost all of the rest are going to end within a few sessions. Have your awesome kickass power, all it's doing is making your character feel like a badass and letting the campaign end with a bang.
    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    You raise a good point here, though I think the math may be off, due to misunderstandings. Assuming a Greater Stole of Arcane Power, a Demonic Warlock can fire off 5 EBs, for a total 60d12 or ~390 damage. Assuming he uses all three Empower SLAs, that adds an extra ~117 damage. Vitriolic Blast would add ~35 acid damage per round for 3 rounds. Warlock's Scepter And the Gloves don't work, as they require a swift action to activate. I may need to update that so it doesn't compete with Eldritch Volley. Regardless, even if it did work it would only add ~17.5 damage.

    Note that as it stands, Stole of Arcane Power is the only thing that adds extra dice to an EB, everything else adds a preset amount of damage. Vitriolic Blast still only does 2d6 acid damage per round, even if your EB deals d12s of damage.

    Regardless of this, you're correct that it's an excessive amount of damage. I didn't readjust it at all when I added an extra attack to Eldritch Volley, and didn't anticipate 5 EBs a round. I may need to do something other than iterative attacks for the demonic capstone, as that seems to be the biggest problem. And to be honest, I'm still undecided on if Eldritch Volley should grant 2 extra attacks at high levels.
    The Gloves of Eldrich Admixture add dice to Eldrich Blasts based on a number of daily charges, which would probably be broken at 20th level if they didn't require a Swift action to activate. So yeah, my math was off. Still, ~500 damage per round at 20th level is still far beyond the scope of low and mid op games. Might I suggest replacing the current capstone with a chance of spontaneously resurrecting following death? Demons are kind of notorious for being literally impossible to kill permanently, after all, Demonic Warlocks are already doing almost twice as much damage as everyone else with their Eldrich Blasts and something awesome and fluffy is always better than bigger numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Hmm...True that spells like those are some of the most awesome choices you could make, but the question is how to limit it? Limiting it by Range, Target, or Duration catches way too many viable options in the crossfire. Honestly I'm inclined to leave it as is, but make a note that DMs should feel free to nix choices that are too strong for their game, like the spells you mentioned.
    I was running into the same problem trying to make suggestions. Banning spells with a duration of Instantaneous removes a lot of cool spells that don't deserve to be removed, like most blasts. I guess maybe just include a rider clause that spell choices must be vetted by the DM and include a warning for said DM about spells like Wall of Stone, PAO and Dominate Person.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post

    Fair enough point that SR10+ is usually enough. I don't think that suppressing/raising SR whenever is strong enough at that level...perhaps when a spell fails to penetrate their SR they can create a major image as an immediate action that make it appear as if the warlock had bee affected...

    I know that disbelieving illusions is a grey area ruled by DM preference, but I can see automatically getting a save upon viewing (many DMs play this way with illusions straight up).
    The issue with that is that it requires an Immediate action, and as written this class is almost never going to want to do that when it could be using those Swift actions to shoot off Eldrich Blasts instead. Hmm... That about setting it up so that whenever the Warlock's Spell Resistance stops a spell from affecting him, the person who cast it is hit by a Mind-affecting Su ability that causes said caster to believe that the spell affected him as normal, and that the Warlock is not in fact resistant to spells. No save, of course. That seems cool, fluffy and powerful enough to matter, albeit gets stopped by Mind Blank. Eh, I'm not sure. I'll keep thinking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Yeees, I can do that. They should be offered saves, and temporary immunity sounds fine. Particularly since saving against it won't screw a warlock...at least as long as their suggestions are reasonable enough that one could conceivably make them without magic.
    Yeah, I was pretty sure that not allowing a saving throw was not your intention, and the temporary immunity encourages caution and good roleplaying.
    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Hmm, that is a powerful dip. I might reduce the bonus to saving throws to +2, given that immunity to poison has just about become irrelevant by 8th level.

    Point on Life Sight.

    While I disagree on automatic victory (see White Raven Hammer), it should offer a save. Paralysis is better than Stun, and at 16th level that is just super powerful.
    In my experience, poison immunity remains relevent throughout one's adventuring career thanks to the deadly poisons that high-CR Magical Beasts, Aberrations and Demons tend to bring to the field. Still, reducing the save bonus to +2 should go a long way towards keeping the dip in check, though it's still a bit powerful for my tastes as two-level dips go.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    I'm not sure I agree. 2/4/6 damage unconditionally is nice, but awfully low-impact. Scalding Gust as it originally stood was terrible precisely because the damage it dealt had virtually no impact. And dealing 1/3/4/6/7 damage at low levels both requires more complex math, and is not something very good to do with your standard action. The utility of gust of wind just doesn't make up for it. And any shenanigans, like a readied action against small targets to just kite them to death works regardless of the damage dealt.
    Frankly, I made the suggestion I did because 3 damage/ 2 levels is the damage dealt by Magic Missile, the other low-level auto-damaging effect. I still don't like how powerful it is at level 1, but my suggestion does have scaling issues that mean you'll probably never use it again by level 5... I'm not sure there's any way for this to be balanced at level 1 and relevent beyond level four at the same time. Geh.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Already worth taking? It provoked when attempting agrapple and only deals damage on a successful pin. I agree it's good against casters. Removing the reflex save doesn't do much to make it worse against casters, it just makes it less good against melee brutes. Though perhaps it should be limited to only one at a time, like other invocations that conjure things.
    Yes, and you wanted them to take that AOO because at level 1 most enemies aren't too likely to be able to take out the Fist's Hardness 4 and 3 HP in a single swing, especially given the AC of 15, and it gave your melee free reign to outflank the enemy even if you failed the grapple check. I ran Earthen Grasp as my level 1 Invocation when playing my 1-7 Warlock, and it was always an extremely powerful effect until I swapped it out at level 6. My DM outright stopped taking AOOs against my Earthen Grasps after level 2 or so. Limiting it to one at a time would also work, I guess, but I don't see the need to make any changes at all to the base Invocation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    For those that want to abuse Alter Shape, they can. For those that want to just have the utility intended, they can. I'm not going to try and fix the polymorph system, I'll just let DM's previous established preferences cover it.
    I guess that's the right attitude to take here. Sure it'll break the game, but only a player who was already going to break the game is going to use it to do so. In fact, that was basically my impression as well; you'll note I didn't suggest removing it or changing it, just sighed at the brokenness of the spell and moved on.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Relentless Dispelling is in Complete Mage, and will be included.
    Good, good. I used it from levels 10 to 12 on my current 10-14 Warlock, and it was always good times despite already being slightly dated by 12th level. I'd pretty much always seriously consider it for non-Evil warlocks as an 8th level Invocation, but you just haven't got to CM yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Never be ignored? It only last for 5 rounds and can be seen through by anything that sees through magical darkness. Perhaps I just need to remove the partial concealment clause, as that is something I added to the original. If I do though, how do I prevent the invocation from being completely useless in brightly lit areas (which are common enough for adventuring parties)?
    Illumination exists independant of whether a creature can see in it or not. As written, as long as you have a source of dim illumination or less you get that 50% miss chance whether your opponent can see through it or not. As far as balancing it goes, I'm not sure. A 20% miss chance that can never be ignored along with immunity to precision-based damage is maybe a bit too powerful for a Greater Invocation, much less the easy-to-trigger 50% miss chance, but removing that entirely does seriously reduce the value of the Invocation back to its current 'meh' standing. Um... Perhaps just make it a straight-up Fort save versus 4 Strength Damage? I mean, it's only a 10-foot Emanation, and most monsters have either amazing Fort saves or are going to be immune anyways, but it's a nice fringe Invocation for Warlocks that plan to be mixing it up in melee. I'm not sure, but as-is I can assure you that I'd be taking that in a heartbeat and renewing it every five rounds whenever I'm not in polite company.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Seriously. A range of touch made Devour Magic so freakin' impractical. Now, while it has a limited range, at least it has range! Plus, you can eat your own stuff for temp HP if you want. I figure if you're spending your turn doing that and not attacking that's ok.
    Ayup. It's competing for Invocation slots with Chilling Tentacles, Chilling Fog and, formerly, Vitriolic and Noxious Blast as well. Who would ever take a Touch-range dispel when you could have one of those four? As-is it's solid, but not overpowered by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post

    Ancestral access is somewhat limited at this point, particularly for the non-evil lineages, but that will change as I start adding homebrew invocations. I could see Angelic have Impenetrable Barriar, if it weren't for the total blackness of it. But that's probably just me being weird and having fluff hang ups.

    I can see Titans with Word of Changing - They have powerful forms and altering others is a pretty distilled essence of arcane might.
    Yeah, all of the Lineage restrictions do seriously limit player choice, and you'll probably be needing to add some more Anscestral Blast Shapes and Essences, since right now there's no choice at all. Perhaps let the Anscestry of the player determine the appearance of Impenetrable Barrier? Make it look like solid Adamantine for Titanic Warlocks, shining silver for Angelic Warlocks and what have you? It still blocks line-of-sight, and becomes more thematically tied to the bloodline of the player in question. Also, it's one of my favorite Dark Invocations, and I'm sad to see that only very few Warlocks get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    I loved your review! point-by-point is generally the way I approach critiques myself, and you had a whole lot of great thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to go through it all!
    My pleasure, and thanks for your own praise.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Then I shall do the same.
    Round 2!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Ah, I had thought you still needed to meet the minimum CL requirement for the item to make it, since Imbue Item only waives the spell prerequisite. I guess you're right, though; throwing time and money at the problem to make yourself a quasi-tier 2 shouldn't be too big a deal in most games.
    I'm 90% sure that most-to-all items do not have a CL requirement; their CL is simply a byproduct.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    The Gloves of Eldrich Admixture add dice to Eldrich Blasts based on a number of daily charges, which would probably be broken at 20th level if they didn't require a Swift action to activate. So yeah, my math was off. Still, ~500 damage per round at 20th level is still far beyond the scope of low and mid op games. Might I suggest replacing the current capstone with a chance of spontaneously resurrecting following death? Demons are kind of notorious for being literally impossible to kill permanently, after all, Demonic Warlocks are already doing almost twice as much damage as everyone else with their Eldrich Blasts and something awesome and fluffy is always better than bigger numbers.
    Gloves of Eldritch Admixture add 2/3/4d6 damage to an eldritch blast, the damage isn't tied to the EB damage. and with only 3 charges, you can at best get 6d6 (21) damage from them a day.

    Hmm...perhaps a death throes effect ala Balors? With some type of resurrection attached? Or maybe fast healing becomes regeneration. Hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    I was running into the same problem trying to make suggestions. Banning spells with a duration of Instantaneous removes a lot of cool spells that don't deserve to be removed, like most blasts. I guess maybe just include a rider clause that spell choices must be vetted by the DM and include a warning for said DM about spells like Wall of Stone, PAO and Dominate Person.
    Yeah, I think that's the plan. After all, there will be some games where picking those spells is fine (the same games where Humanoid Shape is awesome).

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    The issue with that is that it requires an Immediate action, and as written this class is almost never going to want to do that when it could be using those Swift actions to shoot off Eldrich Blasts instead. Hmm... That about setting it up so that whenever the Warlock's Spell Resistance stops a spell from affecting him, the person who cast it is hit by a Mind-affecting Su ability that causes said caster to believe that the spell affected him as normal, and that the Warlock is not in fact resistant to spells. No save, of course. That seems cool, fluffy and powerful enough to matter, albeit gets stopped by Mind Blank. Eh, I'm not sure. I'll keep thinking about it.
    Well, Immediate actions eat up your next swift action, so it isn't as bad. Plus, I like having a little competition for each action, it breeds variety.

    As for what it actually does...Right now I'm thinking you get a Flee the Scene style escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    In my experience, poison immunity remains relevent throughout one's adventuring career thanks to the deadly poisons that high-CR Magical Beasts, Aberrations and Demons tend to bring to the field. Still, reducing the save bonus to +2 should go a long way towards keeping the dip in check, though it's still a bit powerful for my tastes as two-level dips go.
    True enough, poison sucks for PCs, not so much for monsters.

    As for the dip issue...I could swap Strength of Unlife and Deathly Caress, as fatigued is much less dip-enticing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Frankly, I made the suggestion I did because 3 damage/ 2 levels is the damage dealt by Magic Missile, the other low-level auto-damaging effect. I still don't like how powerful it is at level 1, but my suggestion does have scaling issues that mean you'll probably never use it again by level 5... I'm not sure there's any way for this to be balanced at level 1 and relevent beyond level four at the same time. Geh.
    Yep...damn scaling. Even 40 unconditional damage at 20th is pretty sad, and the original damage is sad even for beginning levels. It may just be that finding the right numbers requires play testing. I may trawl Sandstorm for heat-based effects, maybe an idea will spring from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Yes, and you wanted them to take that AOO because at level 1 most enemies aren't too likely to be able to take out the Fist's Hardness 4 and 3 HP in a single swing, especially given the AC of 15, and it gave your melee free reign to outflank the enemy even if you failed the grapple check. I ran Earthen Grasp as my level 1 Invocation when playing my 1-7 Warlock, and it was always an extremely powerful effect until I swapped it out at level 6. My DM outright stopped taking AOOs against my Earthen Grasps after level 2 or so. Limiting it to one at a time would also work, I guess, but I don't see the need to make any changes at all to the base Invocation.
    I certainly agree the original invocation doesn't need alteration - as long as it's being used on squishy targets. These changes are intended to make it viable against melee targets - the ones that stand a solid change of beating the grapple check, or hitting AC 15 for at least 6 points of damage (if the AoO deals any damage the grapple fails), but have a decent shot at blowing the Reflex save.

    I guess part of it is how you want to use the invocation: Do you want a hand that reliably grabs a target, regardless of modifiers, or be able to create a field of hands to shape the battlefield to your liking?

    Now that I ask the question, I'm not sure what my answer is.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Illumination exists independant of whether a creature can see in it or not. As written, as long as you have a source of dim illumination or less you get that 50% miss chance whether your opponent can see through it or not. As far as balancing it goes, I'm not sure. A 20% miss chance that can never be ignored along with immunity to precision-based damage is maybe a bit too powerful for a Greater Invocation, much less the easy-to-trigger 50% miss chance, but removing that entirely does seriously reduce the value of the Invocation back to its current 'meh' standing. Um... Perhaps just make it a straight-up Fort save versus 4 Strength Damage? I mean, it's only a 10-foot Emanation, and most monsters have either amazing Fort saves or are going to be immune anyways, but it's a nice fringe Invocation for Warlocks that plan to be mixing it up in melee. I'm not sure, but as-is I can assure you that I'd be taking that in a heartbeat and renewing it every five rounds whenever I'm not in polite company.
    It grants concealment, which is pierced by things like true seeing, not an untouchable 50% miss chance. Note that I only added the partial concealment and Str damage parts, the rest is all part of the original invocation, and it never had any problems. You yourself hold the original at "meh" status, despite it having the same wording.

    I'm not trying to argue, just trying to figure out what pushes this from "meh" to "OMG" in your book. I could see the strength damage change.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Yeah, all of the Lineage restrictions do seriously limit player choice, and you'll probably be needing to add some more Anscestral Blast Shapes and Essences, since right now there's no choice at all. Perhaps let the Anscestry of the player determine the appearance of Impenetrable Barrier? Make it look like solid Adamantine for Titanic Warlocks, shining silver for Angelic Warlocks and what have you? It still blocks line-of-sight, and becomes more thematically tied to the bloodline of the player in question. Also, it's one of my favorite Dark Invocations, and I'm sad to see that only very few Warlocks get it.
    Oh yes, Shapes and Essences will be added to. Now that you get 8 of them no matter what, you'll need options!

    I like the idea on Impenetrable Barrier, that shall be included. More Warlocks should snag it now that it can double as a short-term forcecage.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    I heartily enjoy your warlock re-tool. If in my own game world Warlocks and their powers not come from the same source ( blood line heritages) I would use this very re-make as is.

    unfortunately in myw orld the whole magic gained from blood line heritages is the realm of Sorcerers not Warlocks ( called Eldritch (es..?)they got their power from a giant gem of pure magic that got shattered.. long story short the class remains unfinished (though still playable) as I just cannot think of a cap-stone ability /cries


    thwt i love the most about your rok here is the fact that you annotated where each invocation origniated. kudos!!!! thats probably teh single most brilliant thing ive ever seen on these forusm, other than debihuman's Pie domain.. but then again its a domain about pie.. how do you not win with that?
    Last edited by ngilop; 2012-03-11 at 08:34 PM.

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    You love what you've done with the capstones. Twentieth level PC should be powerful and unique, and capstones help that alot. You also like turning immunity into resistances (albeit the bonus on the save should probably be higher. +10 maybe?): wizards of the coast have a nasty habit of just giving blanket immunities to all save-or-die powers at high levels, which isn't really fair or interesting: Even creatures from the elemental plane of fire will get burned if things get hot enough.
    HOWEVER.
    There are some things that are just immune to mind effecting. Mindless undead, for instance, cannot be influenced because there is nothing to influence, they have no minds. You should be able to mind control intelligent undead though.
    Great job, you'll be watching eagerly.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    I heartily enjoy your warlock re-tool. If in my own game world Warlocks and their powers not come from the same source ( blood line heritages) I would use this very re-make as is.

    unfortunately in myw orld the whole magic gained from blood line heritages is the realm of Sorcerers not Warlocks ( called Eldritch (es..?)they got their power from a giant gem of pure magic that got shattered.. long story short the class remains unfinished (though still playable) as I just cannot think of a cap-stone ability /cries


    thwt i love the most about your rok here is the fact that you annotated where each invocation origniated. kudos!!!! thats probably teh single most brilliant thing ive ever seen on these forusm, other than debihuman's Pie domain.. but then again its a domain about pie.. how do you not win with that?
    Glad you like it!

    And thanks, I figured annotation is always helpful!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
    You love what you've done with the capstones. Twentieth level PC should be powerful and unique, and capstones help that alot. You also like turning immunity into resistances (albeit the bonus on the save should probably be higher. +10 maybe?): wizards of the coast have a nasty habit of just giving blanket immunities to all save-or-die powers at high levels, which isn't really fair or interesting: Even creatures from the elemental plane of fire will get burned if things get hot enough.
    HOWEVER.
    There are some things that are just immune to mind effecting. Mindless undead, for instance, cannot be influenced because there is nothing to influence, they have no minds. You should be able to mind control intelligent undead though.
    Great job, you'll be watching eagerly.
    Why yes, I do love my capstones.

    Why do you think they bonuses should be so high? The spells that grant blanket immunities like true sight and mind blank are poorly designed spells. They are not well balanced and particularly healthy for the overall game. If the entire point of a feature is to no longer grant immunity with those effects, would an enormous save bonus be just as invalidating?

    As for mind-affecting, I'd agree, except what is going on is MagicTM. A 20th level Infernal warlock is so good at twisting minds and influencing actions that it doesn't matter that mindless undead don't actually have a mind to manipulate. They can still twist the entities actions. They are, quite simply, that good.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    And we have another update!

    Notable in this update are the addition of the rest of the official invocations, a new capstone for the Demonic heritage, a new feat that allows friendly heritage multiclassing, and updated formatting (because a 50,000 character limit is limiting! ).I'm particularly excited to hear what you all think of the new capstone.

    Future updates can now look forward to additional lineages (I'm considering changing the name to blood lines. Thoughts?), lots of homebrew invocations, and a smattering of items and feats. PrCs could be in the future, but those will have their own threads, for both exposure and space purposes!
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    1. You're... a little conflicted on the capstone. On the one hand, it's awesome, but on the other, resurrection is so cheap at epic levels that you're not sure how practical it is. On the other, you also loooove the undead warlock and its capstone, and this is essentially a somewhat more.... chaotic version of that.

    2. You think that these spells/effects/powers/whatever should give high bonuses because they are high level powers/reflect (well, should reflect) specialized training and resistance. And eighth level spell should provide a significant bonus, just not invulnerability, especially not to something as broad as mind effecting powers. You mean, owl's wisdom gives a +2 to will and its third level, that's almost as good as mind blank against one of these guys. Or, think about creatures with immunity to acid: they shouldn't actually be immune to every acid ever, just very resistant to it. You like what you've done, stopping high level enemies from just being immune to the save-or-die focused PC's, you just think that high level spells should give bigger bonuses than +4.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Hmm... seems I forgot to update after last tuesday. Honestly, not much to say, as my performance had pretty much nothing to do with warlock bits. We murdered some kobolds and then fought a chain golem, which would have been much better for us if the DM didn't have the 3.0 version of the MM2 or allowed SR:No to bypass magic immunity (which is how it normally works in 3.5).
    Never can find my towel...

    So it goes.

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
    1. You're... a little conflicted on the capstone. On the one hand, it's awesome, but on the other, resurrection is so cheap at epic levels that you're not sure how practical it is. On the other, you also loooove the undead warlock and its capstone, and this is essentially a somewhat more.... chaotic version of that.
    And violent! Don't forget more violent!

    Aside from that, you have a point that resurrection is easily available...if you have partners you can rely on (which, admittedly, you probably do). Feel free to suggest either an alternate or additional option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
    2. You think that these spells/effects/powers/whatever should give high bonuses because they are high level powers/reflect (well, should reflect) specialized training and resistance. And eighth level spell should provide a significant bonus, just not invulnerability, especially not to something as broad as mind effecting powers. You mean, owl's wisdom gives a +2 to will and its third level, that's almost as good as mind blank against one of these guys. Or, think about creatures with immunity to acid: they shouldn't actually be immune to every acid ever, just very resistant to it. You like what you've done, stopping high level enemies from just being immune to the save-or-die focused PC's, you just think that high level spells should give bigger bonuses than +4.
    The problem it, it is nearly always those high level spells that are granting the immunity in the first place, and if they grant a bonus that makes them effectively immune, then what is the point of negating the immunity in the first place?

    Using your acid example, you're thinking about it from a mundane perspective. A creature is made of acid, so logically it must be immune or resistant to acid. Things like Instill Vulnerability don't give a damn about logic. They just say "I don't care what you're made of, you're going to get hurt by acid right now." Because that is how magic in DnD works. There are no underlying limitations, like with Allomancy for example, it is capable of whatever you want it to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    Hmm... seems I forgot to update after last tuesday. Honestly, not much to say, as my performance had pretty much nothing to do with warlock bits. We murdered some kobolds and then fought a chain golem, which would have been much better for us if the DM didn't have the 3.0 version of the MM2 or allowed SR:No to bypass magic immunity (which is how it normally works in 3.5).
    Damned golems. You planning on swapping something out for Hammer Blast now? Well, better match-ups next week!
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    This actually looks pretty balanced with the Pathfinder base classes. Reminds me of the changs they made to the Sorcerer, especially.
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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Hope this doesn't lock it, but here goes.

    You mentioned that you were thinking of a better capstone for the Draconic Lineage, and I figure that one thing that would do good is that through sacrificing any extra essences or blast shapes, they can make their Eldritch Blast function exactly like the breath of a great wyrm example of what dragon they chose for their lineage. Perhaps have that throughout the class, maybe getting that at level six but only as that of a Young dragon, Adult at level ten, Very Old at level sixteen, and then Great Wyrm as the capstone. Instead of Eldritch Essences and Blast Shapes, they're instead able to apply Metabreath feats to it, ignoring the size prerequisites of the feat, and they would get one bonus, non-epic Metabreath feat upon reaching level twenty for it. You'd follow all the rules for the breath weapons though, only being able to do the blast-to-breath switch as often as a dragon would be able to use its breath as normal, Metabreath adding to the cooldown as well.

    If you'd rather not do that, then perhaps adding a bit of emphasis on their ancestors' physical attributes would be better. Something like making their natural attacks count as the claw attack of a dragon one size larger at the levels I'd mentioned for the breath, up to a Colossal dragon's claws at level twenty. This would make them a very attractive path to follow for a build based on the Eldritch Claws invocation. Besides, just flavor alone for a Draconic Warlock as it is right now is enticing to use for a Clawlock. Why not give them all the more incentive?

    Or should you wish to keep the magical bent to them, have them get a Spell Resistance equal to the save of their Frightful Presence feature, or maybe have their Spell Resistance be 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod, and then when they reach level twenty, they count their full Hit Dice for it instead.

    Of course, some of these ideas would need kink worked out, especially the blast-to-breath one, but if you want to use them you're more than welcome to.

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    Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

    Any work on the Elemental lineage? Also, any thoughts on how your version interacts with the Epic Warlock stuff?

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