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Thread: Mage slayer

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    Default Mage slayer

    I decided I felt like putting together a dedicated anti-mage build. I think this would be an NPC, if it is actually used, but in any case, effectiveness at killing mages is the only criteria. Basically, he considers mages evil, and has vowed to seek them out and kill them. AS such, he should not have any spellcasting ability of his own, though he will use magic items.

    RACE:
    I am thinking spellwarped raptorian. The spell resistance from spellwarped is nice, and the ability to buff off of absorbed spells is certainly useful for someone who is fighting mages on a regular basis. Its the best SR for the effective level I was able to find on a quick search. raptorian is for the flight. Mages are liable to take to the air, and so the flight is a good counter

    However, I have switched it over to karsite. They can't cast spells, which works just fine for this build. Their SR is just as good as spellwarped, and they get to heal off the absrobed spells. It has less LA than spellwarped, making it a stronger choice.

    CLASSES:


    -1 karsite
    0 karsite
    1 ranger
    2 rogue
    3 rogue
    4 monk
    5 monk
    6 occult slayer
    7 occult slayer
    8 occult slayer
    9 occult slayer
    10 occult slayer
    11 witch slayer
    12 witch slayer nemesis
    13 paladin
    14 paladin
    15 eldeen ranger
    16 eldeen ranger
    17 eldeen ranger
    18 eldeen ranger


    ranger takes the arcane hunter substitution level to get favored enemy(arcanist)

    the rogue takes the spell reflection substitution level, trading evasion for the ability to redirect spells that miss them.

    monk is a key class. It gives them several things they need. 1st, you get stunning fist. Fort save, mage, you do the math. Stunning them for a round means they are not casting spells. This is their favored opening attack. it also gives them the monk AC bonus, which works on touch attacks. Monk AC is much more valuable than armour or sheild against mages, so that is an obvious choice. It also has all good saves, which is useful. It also gives you evasion, which we gave up from rouge. The monk's unarmed also means you threaten squares next to you, even while weilding a polearm.

    occult slayer is full of goodies. it boosts your saves vs. spells, which is good. It also lets you do a bit more damage vs. mages. It also lets you turn a couple of spells per day, which is nice. And, perhaps most importantly, it makes you immune to mind-affecting affects, which is a huge advantage

    the two levels of which slayer gives you a smite that may or may not be useable against mages, and mettle. Mettle is basically evasion for fort and will, and combined with evasion measn you can't be effected by failed saves.

    The two levels of paladin grant divine grace, which adds charisma to saves, which should boost them to being near unasailable. They are not devoted to a deity, but instead an ideal. The ideal that magic is evil. That seems like a good enough ideal to get a boost to your saves.

    the eldeen ranger has the ashbound sect. this grants them another bonus to resist arcane spells, lets them spend an action point to deal double damage against a spellcaster, and improves their favored enemy bonus. The last level is not needed, as that just grants SR 20, and their innnate SR is higher than that by this point. That level wouldn't even boost saves.



    FEATS:
    1 improved initiative
    3 weapon focus(glaive)
    both of these are pre-reqs for occult slayer
    6 mage slayer
    slight bonus to will saves, and you can't cast defensively next to them. they can't 5ft step back either, as they are weilding a reach weapon.
    9 blindfight
    helps if they have concealment
    12 peirce magical concealment
    ignore all miss chance from spells, and identify true copy of mirror image. This cuts through their most potent layer of defenses.
    15 nemesis(arcanist)
    deal extra damage to evil spellcasters( and we all know there are plenty of those), and automatically detect them within 60ft. Even if they are invisible.
    18 pain touch
    if the stunning fist works, the round after they are stunned, they are nauseated. Nauseated means only a move action, and explicitaly dissallows all spellcasting. Now, stunning fist knocks out their spellcasting for 2 whole rounds.

    so, if they get next to a spellcaster, they can shut down their spellcasting. they can find invisible spellcasters, run up to them, and hit them without any miss chance.

    Equipment:
    assume they will have standard equipment, I am just highlighting the more unusual items

    +1 banishing(+2)(to deal with summons) ki focus(+1)(use stunning fist with) greater dispelling(+2)(in case they have a pesky spell) hunting(+1)(extra damage against favored enemy,aka spellcasters) impedance(+2)(impede their ability to cast magic) magebane(+1)(duh) glaive

    ki straps: +2 to the stunning fist DC

    ring of negative protection: cannot gain negative levels




    Thoughs or suggestions?
    Last edited by Mystify; 2011-12-16 at 09:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    If you have access to Tome of Magic, use the Karsite race. +2 LA, but Spell Resistance, able to heal from spells that don't pierce its Spell Resistance, and the flavor and No Spellcasting clause fit perfectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by SheepinDisguise
    There's no I in team. There is, however, an I in Wizard, Cleric, Druid, StP Erudite, Psionic Artificer, LE Candle of Invocation, Miracle, and Wish. There is no I in Trunamer or Monk though.
    True. However, there is also an I in Samurai.


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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    Uhm. It depend greatly at the optimization level of the mages in question.

    At the highest levels of optimization, the only character that can kill a spellcaster is another spellcaster...

    Also,

    R-O-G-U-E.

    'rouge' is makeup...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-12-16 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    Quote Originally Posted by DonutBoy12321 View Post
    If you have access to Tome of Magic, use the Karsite race. +2 LA, but Spell Resistance, able to heal from spells that don't pierce its Spell Resistance, and the flavor and No Spellcasting clause fit perfectly.
    Yeah, that does look better. The SR is the same as spellwarped st any level, since spellwarped is +3 LA and HD+11 SR and karsite is +2 LA abd DC+10 SR. It also gives another level to play with. For optimization, switching out the last level of rouge to get 2 levels of paladin seems like the strongest choice, but I still have trouble fitting that with the character.

    hmmm. Divine casters are allowed to get their power from devotion to an ideal instead of an actual diety, right? I could have him get spell resistance out of devotion to the ideal of anti-spellcasting.

    I've altered the build to account for these changes
    Last edited by Mystify; 2011-12-16 at 09:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    If you're using Eberron rules you might consider Serpent strike (feat).
    Allows you to use a longspear with a flurry of blows.
    Fools are made to suffer, not to be suffered

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    hmmm. Divine casters are allowed to get their power from devotion to an ideal instead of an actual diety, right? I could have him get spell resistance out of devotion to the ideal of anti-spellcasting.
    Yep, but although mechanically I don't think you can get spell resistance solely because of that.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    if they get next to a spellcaster
    You cannot fly. You cannot teleport. You cannot match the speed of a Phantom Steed or dragon. You cannot even win initiative, because nothing you have makes up for the easy +38 a spellcaster can get, not to mention Celerity and friends. You are vulnerable to divination, you're MAD for all the ability scores, your offense sucks, you have practically no immunities.

    The second this build tries to fight a spellcaster, the caster can just gate in whatever minion they choose, then leave, because they wouldn't even need to stay to make sure you'd die.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    How optimized and what level is the party at when they will fight him/her? See my party's mage is a blaster-sorcerer and would get absolutely wrecked by this. But a level 20 mage that has some thought in it? I honestly doubt much of anything can win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steward View Post
    Yep, but although mechanically I don't think you can get spell resistance solely because of that.
    they get spell resistance from their race. That is only to get low-level paladin abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    You cannot fly. You cannot teleport. You cannot match the speed of a Phantom Steed or dragon. You cannot even win initiative, because nothing you have makes up for the easy +38 a spellcaster can get, not to mention Celerity and friends. You are vulnerable to divination, you're MAD for all the ability scores, your offense sucks, you have practically no immunities.

    The second this build tries to fight a spellcaster, the caster can just gate in whatever minion they choose, then leave, because they wouldn't even need to stay to make sure you'd die.
    1. fly is very easy to get with magic items
    2. again, magic items
    3. surprise rounds
    4. they are immune to divintion. They have a permament mind blank from occult slayer
    5. that not a huge deal
    6. its good enough to cut through a mage. 10 from favored enemy and related bonuses, 2+2d6 from bane, 1d6 from occult slayer, say 14 str with a +6 item and tome for +7, two handed to +10, 1d10 bane weapon, +1 enchantment, 23+3d6 damage, about 33 damage per hit, 4 hits per round, one of which is double damage, and you have 167 damage. that will drop a mage before they can recover from stunning fist.
    7. they have piles of immunities and a really high defense. They can turn spell, and redirect spells back at them. They have amazing saves, and failing a save can't harm them. their touch Ac will be great.

    They are not going march up, waving a banner from 10 miles away. They are going to stealth in close, and spring out with stunning blows. it doesn't matter if they go first if they are stunned. They can't summon things or escape if you are next to them and they can't cast. they could probably teleport next to the mage and lock them down before they can do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabirius View Post
    How optimized and what level is the party at when they will fight him/her? See my party's mage is a blaster-sorcerer and would get absolutely wrecked by this. But a level 20 mage that has some thought in it? I honestly doubt much of anything can win.
    if you are pulling something from the depths of the character optimization boards, yes, this will lose. That stuff is crazy. I'm talking about a real party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    1. fly is very easy to get with magic items
    2. again, magic items
    3. surprise rounds
    4. they are immune to divintion. They have a permament mind blank from occult slayer
    5. that not a huge deal
    6. its good enough to cut through a mage. 10 from favored enemy and related bonuses, 2+2d6 from bane, 1d6 from occult slayer, say 14 str with a +6 item and tome for +7, two handed to +10, 1d10 bane weapon, +1 enchantment, 23+3d6 damage, about 33 damage per hit, 4 hits per round, one of which is double damage, and you have 167 damage. that will drop a mage before they can recover from stunning fist.
    7. they have piles of immunities and a really high defense. They can turn spell, and redirect spells back at them. They have amazing saves, and failing a save can't harm them. their touch Ac will be great.

    They are not going march up, waving a banner from 10 miles away. They are going to stealth in close, and spring out with stunning blows. it doesn't matter if they go first if they are stunned. They can't summon things or escape if you are next to them and they can't cast. they could probably teleport next to the mage and lock them down before they can do anything.
    1&2. A Phantom Steed has a fly speed of 240 feet. Magic items cannot replicate this.
    3. That requires you to sneak up on a caster, bypassing their contingencies and then dispelling their Dire Tortoise form.
    4. Divinations are not mind-affecting.
    5. It is if you don't have +100 PB
    6. It's really really not, because by level 18 a caster who's trying can have far more HP than that just from their Constitution.
    7. All you have is immunity to mind-affecting. Your saves won't save you against no-save stuff, your AC won't save you against things that don't care about AC.

    Stealthing close to a caster flying at 240ft per round is quite the feat, especially since you have no way to avoid supernatural senses like Touchsense. Immunity to stunning is easy. Anticipate Teleport makes your teleportation attempt a joke.

    Basically, this build only works if you ignore pretty much everything about a high-level spellcaster, at which point you can just make a Fighter with Weapon Focus and it'll do just as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    What's your proposed build's touch AC? Any run of the mill Cindy build would clobber it, no save, no SR. If you can get your touch AC higher than 70 then you can begin to consider yourself safe from orbs. But that's only orbs we're talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    1&2. A Phantom Steed has a fly speed of 240 feet. Magic items cannot replicate this.
    3. That requires you to sneak up on a caster, bypassing their contingencies and then dispelling their Dire Tortoise form.
    4. Divinations are not mind-affecting.
    5. It is if you don't have +100 PB
    6. It's really really not, because by level 18 a caster who's trying can have far more HP than that just from their Constitution.
    7. All you have is immunity to mind-affecting. Your saves won't save you against no-save stuff, your AC won't save you against things that don't care about AC.

    Stealthing close to a caster flying at 240ft per round is quite the feat, especially since you have no way to avoid supernatural senses like Touchsense. Immunity to stunning is easy. Anticipate Teleport makes your teleportation attempt a joke.

    Basically, this build only works if you ignore pretty much everything about a high-level spellcaster, at which point you can just make a Fighter with Weapon Focus and it'll do just as well.
    3. their weapon has greater dispelling on it for a reason
    4. mind blank explicitly states you are immune to divination
    5. perhaps for general use, for this case he's fine. I don't understand the mindset of "you have another stat adding bonuses, so you are worst!". how does adding charisma to your saves weaken you?

    the caster is not flying around at 240ft all day and night. you are supposing a
    very unlikely situation. And unless they are always indoors, you teleport above their anticipate teleportation range, and drop on their head. 5ft/level is 100 ft for a level 20 caster. Even assuming they triple that to 300 through whatever means, that is still a trivial amount to drop in one round.

    uponfurther consideration, I think they should ahve 2 weapons, that they switch between. One will have more of the "instant debuff" stuff, like binding so they can't just teleport away

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    What's your proposed build's touch AC? Any run of the mill Cindy build would clobber it, no save, no SR. If you can get your touch AC higher than 70 then you can begin to consider yourself safe from orbs. But that's only orbs we're talking about.
    I can't find the actual cindy build, but from what I'm finding about it, its from the depths of character optimization threads. This is not intended to be the uber-otpimized end-all mage killer that is using tricks from 10 books to become god. This is intended to go against the type of characters that you would see in an actual campaign, and function at their role at any level.

    I have presented an outline, a basic overview of their abilitie, without even going into detail as to their magic item selection. And I am being countered with tales of hyper-optimized wizards with +35 initiative that are flying around on dragon constantly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    I can't find the actual cindy build, but from what I'm finding about it, its from the depths of character optimization threads. This is not intended to be the uber-otpimized end-all mage killer that is using tricks from 10 books to become god. This is intended to go against the type of characters that you would see in an actual campaign, and function at their role at any level.

    I have presented an outline, a basic overview of their abilitie, without even going into detail as to their magic item selection. And I am being countered with tales of hyper-optimized wizards with +35 initiative that are flying around on dragon constantly.
    Well, if you want a core only way to nuke your build, all it takes is forcecage and dimensional lock, followed by any number of painful things. Moment of prescience is a a core spell by the way, it's an easy +25 to initiative. Getting another +10 in core is still trivial and not even scratching the surface of optimization.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2011-12-17 at 01:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    3. their weapon has greater dispelling on it for a reason
    4. mind blank explicitly states you are immune to divination
    5. perhaps for general use, for this case he's fine. I don't understand the mindset of "you have another stat adding bonuses, so you are worst!". how does adding charisma to your saves weaken you?

    the caster is not flying around at 240ft all day and night. you are supposing a
    very unlikely situation. And unless they are always indoors, you teleport above their anticipate teleportation range, and drop on their head. 5ft/level is 100 ft for a level 20 caster. Even assuming they triple that to 300 through whatever means, that is still a trivial amount to drop in one round.

    uponfurther consideration, I think they should ahve 2 weapons, that they switch between. One will have more of the "instant debuff" stuff, like binding so they can't just teleport away


    I can't find the actual cindy build, but from what I'm finding about it, its from the depths of character optimization threads. This is not intended to be the uber-otpimized end-all mage killer that is using tricks from 10 books to become god. This is intended to go against the type of characters that you would see in an actual campaign, and function at their role at any level.

    I have presented an outline, a basic overview of their abilitie, without even going into detail as to their magic item selection. And I am being countered with tales of hyper-optimized wizards with +35 initiative that are flying around on dragon constantly.
    3. Your dispel is going to have a terrible CL, and still doesn't bypass the contingencies, the sneaking or the dire tortoise form's ability to always act in the surprise round.
    4. Mind Blank only foils attempts by the three listed spells to gain information about the subject's mind. Gaining information about his body using Limited Wish is still kosher.
    5. It doesn't weaken you, but you're not gaining anything from it, because your stats are spread so thin that you're very unlikely to eke out more than a 12 or so.

    Phantom Steed lasts rounds/level, so anyone that wants to fly on it constantly can easily do so. This is not high-op. This is a spell that makes a horse, and it completely defeats your build.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    4. they are immune to divintion. They have a permament mind blank from occult slayer
    No, they don't. They get what amounts to a reduced mind blank effect: Immunity to enchantments as well as nondetection. They aren't immune to all divinations.

    And you still need wis and dex to AC, strength for damage, con to survive, cha for saves and, if you want lots of skill points, int, so you're dependent on every ability while casters only need three. (Casting stat, dex and con.)

    Casters will have MUCH more gold than you, since they can craft their own stuff. Don't depend on magic items.

    Take the bonus feat rogue variant. Sneak attack is less useful, especially when there are hundreds of ways to negate it. This way you can get pierce magical protection as well.

    Take the decisive strike monk variant and consider making a quarterstaff your weapon, so you can do double damage sometimes. Not much, but better than flurry of blows.

    Don't optimise stunning fist so much. It's too easy to avoid, and you only get like 5 uses a day. Remove pain touch from your feat list and ki focus from your weapon enchantments (Just hit them with an unarmed strike) and ki straps from your equipment. Just use stunning fist on them after you've dispelled the buffs that make them immune to it and see if you can get them to spend one of their contingencies to make the save. It might be worth dropping for overwhelming attack style monk, which gives power attack and improved bullrush, the prereq's for shock trooper, if you want to go down that path. If you aren't going shock trooper, at least take leap attack.

    Get spellblade weapons keyed to dispel magic and greater dispel magic. (A quarterstaff would be good here for both on different ends of it, primarily using one end). If you have to choose, pick the greater version.

    Another bonus of quarterstaff: can't be blocked by ironguard.

    Unless you can get your touch AC higher than 30, a level 20 caster will auto hit against you after casting true strike, which means you're in trouble against no-save attacks, no-sr attacks.

    When most people say immunities, they mean immunities to different types of elemental damage, immunities to fear, dazed, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, sickened, staggered, stunned, mind affecting (You've got that one), ability drain/damage, negative energy and form-changing (such as baleful polymorph and petrification). True seeing is another important defence. Remember, high saving throws don't equal immunities. If a wizard hits you with 20 save or dies, no matter high your saves are you'll fail one. For immunities, see if you can afford magic items of constant death ward, sheltered vitality, favour of the martyr and true seeing. If they don't already exist, make them custom. A magic item of phantom steed at high CL would also be nice, to keep up with the wizard.

    Use LA buyoff so you can take an extra level or two.

    Put high ranks in hide and move silently and see if there's a way to block mindsight.

    How high are your SR and saves at level 20, anyways?

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    I still maintain that in most campaigns, wizards do not function like that in practice. I have played in campaigns where characters have 30+ CL in mutliple class levels and are nuking CRs 10+ above them easily, and even slaying gods, with divine metamagic being slung around and initiates of hte sevenfold veild blocking everything, and the mages still did not act like that.

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    So your build is intended to beat casters who aren't trying? Like I said, that isn't a very hard benchmark to hit, especially since any flaw can then be countered with "well it's not intended to beat that spell" until there are no spells left.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2011-12-17 at 01:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    I still maintain that in most campaigns, wizards do not function like that in practice. I have played in campaigns where characters have 30+ CL in mutliple class levels and are nuking CRs 10+ above them easily, and even slaying gods, with divine metamagic being slung around and initiates of hte sevenfold veild blocking everything, and the mages still did not act like that.
    They didn't use forcecage, dimensional lock, or moment of prescience?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomguy View Post
    No, they don't. They get what amounts to a reduced mind blank effect: Immunity to enchantments as well as nondetection. They aren't immune to all divinations.

    And you still need wis and dex to AC, strength for damage, con to survive, cha for saves and, if you want lots of skill points, int, so you're dependent on every ability while casters only need three. (Casting stat, dex and con.)

    Casters will have MUCH more gold than you, since they can craft their own stuff. Don't depend on magic items.

    Take the bonus feat rogue variant. Sneak attack is less useful, especially when there are hundreds of ways to negate it. This way you can get pierce magical protection as well.

    Take the decisive strike monk variant and consider making a quarterstaff your weapon, so you can do double damage sometimes. Not much, but better than flurry of blows.

    Don't optimise stunning fist so much. It's too easy to avoid, and you only get like 5 uses a day. Remove pain touch from your feat list and ki focus from your weapon enchantments (Just hit them with an unarmed strike) and ki straps from your equipment. Just use stunning fist on them after you've dispelled the buffs that make them immune to it and see if you can get them to spend one of their contingencies to make the save. It might be worth dropping for overwhelming attack style monk, which gives power attack and improved bullrush, the prereq's for shock trooper, if you want to go down that path. If you aren't going shock trooper, at least take leap attack.

    Get spellblade weapons keyed to dispel magic and greater dispel magic. (A quarterstaff would be good here for both on different ends of it, primarily using one end). If you have to choose, pick the greater version.

    Another bonus of quarterstaff: can't be blocked by ironguard.

    Unless you can get your touch AC higher than 30, a level 20 caster will auto hit against you after casting true strike, which means you're in trouble against no-save attacks, no-sr attacks.

    When most people say immunities, they mean immunities to different types of elemental damage, immunities to fear, dazed, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, sickened, staggered, stunned, mind affecting (You've got that one), ability drain/damage, negative energy and form-changing (such as baleful polymorph and petrification). True seeing is another important defence. Remember, high saving throws don't equal immunities. If a wizard hits you with 20 save or dies, no matter high your saves are you'll fail one. For immunities, see if you can afford magic items of constant death ward, sheltered vitality, favour of the martyr and true seeing. If they don't already exist, make them custom. A magic item of phantom steed at high CL would also be nice, to keep up with the wizard.

    Use LA buyoff so you can take an extra level or two.

    Put high ranks in hide and move silently and see if there's a way to block mindsight.

    How high are your SR and saves at level 20, anyways?
    somehow I read that blank thoughts was a permament mind blank, but it doesn't say that at all. My mistake.
    the touch AC should be higher than 30 easily. I haven't figured out precise stats because I was still looking for overall improvements. I figured most of those immunities would be acquired through their magic item selection. I do know that they have an extra +5 vs spells and +cha to saves on top of everything else, as well as a fair bit of multi-classing to boost it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    So your build is intended to beat casters who aren't trying? Like I said, that isn't a very hard benchmark to hit, especially since any flaw can then be countered with "well it's not intended to beat that spell" until there are no spells left.
    you seem to assume that they have access to every single spell in the game. I don't believe wizards were intended to do that. In every campaign I've been in, you can look for specific spells, but you are not guaranteed to find them. sorcerers have a small list of spells known, but they have complete control. Wizards have a huge spellbook, but they have to locate the spells. Maybe that basic check on wizards is often skipped, leading to the impression they can do whatever they feel like, but any given wizard should not have every spell they feel like. This also helps with the relative balance of sorcerers and wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    They didn't use forcecage, dimensional lock, or moment of prescience?
    things generally didn't last long enough to justify it. And they didn't care if they got killed, they were only a quickened reach revivify from standing back up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    you seem to assume that they have access to every single spell in the game. I don't believe wizards were intended to do that. In every campaign I've been in, you can look for specific spells, but you are not guaranteed to find them. sorcerers have a small list of spells known, but they have complete control. Wizards have a huge spellbook, but they have to locate the spells. Maybe that basic check on wizards is often skipped, leading to the impression they can do whatever they feel like, but any given wizard should not have every spell they feel like. This also helps with the relative balance of sorcerers and wizards.
    It is absolutely trivial to get 6 free spells per level, but even the basic two per level are enough to get all the essentials. You'll notice that I've only listed a pittance of spells. Let's count them! Shapechange, Moment of Perfect Mind, Nerveskitter, Phantom Steed, Limited Wish, Teleport, Anticipate Teleport. That's seven spells. A Wizard gets over 40 of them for free just by living. What am I assuming, again?
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystify View Post
    things generally didn't last long enough to justify it. And they didn't care if they got killed, they were only a quickened reach revivify from standing back up.
    I'm not following you? I named a combo that complete shuts your build down, and now you say death doesn't matter? Even if you do revive yourself, you're still stuck in the forcecage, ready to be knocked down again. Soul bind could keep you dead if someone cared enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    So your build is intended to beat casters who aren't trying? Like I said, that isn't a very hard benchmark to hit, especially since any flaw can then be countered with "well it's not intended to beat that spell" until there are no spells left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    They didn't use forcecage, dimensional lock, or moment of prescience?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    I'm not following you? I named a combo that complete shuts your build down, and now you say death doesn't matter? Even if you do revive yourself, you're still stuck in the forcecage, ready to be knocked down again. Soul bind could keep you dead if someone cared enough.
    I said that the caster s I was dealing with didn't care about death, and never used such spells.
    anyways, pick of peircing to take care of force effects.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    What's the source for Pick of Piercing?

    Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Phantom Steed lasts hours/level
    Might wanna fix your typo.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-12-17 at 03:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    What's the source for Pick of Piercing?

    Also,



    Might wanna fix your typo.
    Shining South - a little over 13.5k for a +1 pick of disintegration.

    Also, too lazy, but thanks for pointing that out.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    WIZARDS ARE UNKILLABLE GRA GRA GRA GRA

    I know I shouldn't be surprised, but...
    I named and helped build the Pervirtuoso!
    Ask me about Simon the Warblade!

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    [..] that post by Crasical...I can't find the words. Were I capable of emotion, I would cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    That's beautiful Crasical... Simply marvelous.
    Avatar by the esteemed Prime32

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    Rather than going on about why mages are beatable if they don't do X, we look into making a non arcane mage slayer...

    Karsite cannot cast, but is allowed to use psionics. Psions make rather good mage slayers. Ardents make amazing mage hunters.

    Ardent 10/Slayer 10 is the build you likely want. You can grab the magic mantle to pick up extraordinary spell aim and null psionic field with substitute power. Port in, temporal accel (contingent temp accel also), start spamming twin linked synchronicity (dominant ideal time) and ready an action to spatter the mage when the temp accel wears off. It's ok, he will be in your null psi field. You are of course using deep impact and power attacking for full, possibly with other modifiers.

    And the best part is, you are not a spellcaster. You then get to say you kicked magics rear with force of will, your own power, rather than relying on magic items. Ardents are awesome.
    This is where I would have something descriptive... IF I HAD ONE!


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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGlock View Post
    And the best part is, you are not a spellcaster.
    Well, psionics is really just another word for magic.

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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Well, psionics is really just another word for magic.
    It's a distinction i'll hide behind. Psions make the best mage killers, and using psionic force of will strikes me as more to the spirit of the challenge than being dependent on mage wrought magic items.
    This is where I would have something descriptive... IF I HAD ONE!


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    Default Re: Mage slayer

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorGlock View Post
    It's a distinction i'll hide behind. Psions make the best mage killers, and using psionic force of will strikes me as more to the spirit of the challenge than being dependent on mage wrought magic items.
    Actually as you seem to be using that particular interpretation of the magic mantle then you are apparently using spells with regards to your character at least anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    Actually as you seem to be using that particular interpretation of the magic mantle then you are apparently using spells with regards to your character at least anyway.
    Nah, just psionics tailor made to hunt mages. How magic mantle works is a matter of fluff in the end.
    This is where I would have something descriptive... IF I HAD ONE!


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