Keeping a Rogue Alive in E6

[Zaq]

I like Rogues. They're one of my favorite classes I've never played. I've toyed with the idea of building a backup one in my E6 campaign, but one thing has stopped me . . . namely, how the hell do you keep one alive? As I see it, they're one of the squishiest classes without some built-in way of protecting themselves (there are others, but they're up there). Add in the wrinkle that in our campaign, items that the book lists as having a CL above 6 simply don't exist (it's a houserule, don't try to fight it)—which means no DEX-boosting items, for one—and you have a class that's meant to stand in very dangerous places without a good way of making them less dangerous. In a high-level campaign, there's always HiPS, UMD of all kinds of great defensive spells, having enough DEX to have an AC/touch AC worth noticing, and so on. In E6, though . . . the majority of those just aren't options. You also can't get into full blender mode in E6, so just killing everything you get near isn't much of an option either.

Basically, without HiPS on the table (thus making in-combat stealth very unreliable), how would you keep an E6 Rogue upright but still useful? What good defensive options are out there?

[dextercorvia]

Why is HiPS off the table? Templates are quite affordable in E6 -- Can you get one of the better Dark Templates?

You also can go full blender. Start as a RotD WE Kobold, add Unseelie Fey and Dark Template (if available).

For feats, you want Dragon Tail (RotD), Multiattack, and eventually Aberrant Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Deepspawn.

That will have you rocking 6 natural attacks at reach. You'll want pounce -- Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws, and Open Least Chakra work for two feats.

[Zaq]

Basically, my group as a whole is very not fond of templates or anything that has LA, and we pretty much soft-ban them. (Yes, we know about the "LA = reduced PB" rules for E6. We don't like them.)

Good call on the natural attack route. I'd done something not entirely dissimilar with a Spellthief long ago, but the idea totally slipped my mind for Rogues (probably because I don't like kobolds, but that's not the only way to do things, after all). Of course, that's really not reducing your glass cannon status . . . just making the cannon part bigger.

[Ozreth]

It saddens me that over the years "keeping a character alive" has come to rely on the numbers and terms on a character sheet rather than player creativity and improvisation.

You keep a rogue alive by staying one step ahead, cunning, quick wits etc. Your DM should cater to this.

[NeoSeraphi]

In-combat stealth for a level 6 rogue is pretty much a wand of invisibility and the Spring Attack feat.

That said, rogues are awful at surviving, and at low-levels even moreso. I would personally suggest a wand of mirror image, but that of course still runs the risk that you get filleted. Try a wand of displacement, maybe.

You may be noticing a pattern here. With light armor proficiency, d6 hit dice, and limited magic item access, you are reduced to playing a hiding wizard-lite gish, only you rely on skill checks to cast your three or four spells known.

Solution? Play an archer. Nothing says "I can survive" like not being there. Be a wild elf so you get +2 Dex and longbow proficiency without a Con penalty, and have fun sniping people with 3/4 BAB and no bonus archery feats.

[Zaq]

It saddens me that over the years "keeping a character alive" has come to rely on the numbers and terms on a character sheet rather than player creativity and improvisation.

You keep a rogue alive by staying one step ahead, cunning, quick wits etc. Your DM should cater to this.

That part pretty much goes without saying, but there's plenty of times when all the creativity in the world won't stop an axe being swung at you. We're not playing Kobolds Ate My Baby, and you can't just narrate your way away from people making attacks at you. You have to fight numbers with numbers and game elements with game elements.

What you're talking about, as I understand it, is great for setting up encounters in your favor . . . but we both know you can't rely on that all the time. The rest of the time? Well, I'd like more than a d6 HD and leather armor between me and the snarling wolves. I want a way to get away, a way to make them not attack me, a way to make their attacks miss, or whatever.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I'd like more than a d6 HD and leather armor between me and the snarling wolves. I want a way to get away, a way to make them not attack me, a way to make their attacks miss, or whatever.

Survival is not a rogue's strong point. Especially at low levels. Even with a +1 chain shirt and 18 Dex, you're looking at 19 AC, which a CR 3 ogre will hit 45% of the time.

Again, I strongly suggest you play an archer. There are much better classes for this, of course, but archery is how rogues survive. (That and spending money to copy Tier 1 class features)

[dextercorvia]

Warforged works too, but it doesn't qualify for Aberrant Blood, etc, and you won't get the BAB for Second Slam.

You will probably need to grab a Totemist2 dip. Along those lines, you should invest in Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (the extra Con won't hurt), and go full bore into Totem Bound Manticore Belt. By level 6, you have 4 ranged attacks as a standard action, which means you keep your mobility. Ranged means higher survivability.

[Kenneth]

I am just going to say this and admit it might be (and probably is) a derialemt.. but how does a Rogue Not stay alive?


maybe the rogues that my groups have played with are doing it wrong... but them being scared of dieing as d=badly as it seems the overhwelming majority of GiTPers are completely boggles my mind.


Its just.. i can't wrap my head around how somebody with stealth skills is afriad of dieing as neutoicly as they all make it out to be,

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can get Hide in Plain Sight in E6:
Wilderness Rogue gets Hide in Plain Sight available as a Rogue special ability, provided you first have Camouflage;
The E6 Rogue capstone feat gives you a Rogue special ability, but can be taken only once;
Underfolk from Races of Destiny (+0 LA) gets a Camouflage racial ability, which should be sufficient to allow you to gain Hide in Plain Sight.

[NeoSeraphi]

I am just going to say this and admit it might be (and probably is) a derialemt.. but how does a Rogue Not stay alive?


maybe the rogues that my groups have played with are doing it wrong... but them being scared of dieing as d=badly as it seems the overhwelming majority of GiTPers are completely boggles my mind.


Its just.. i can't wrap my head around how somebody with stealth skills is afriad of dieing as neutoicly as they all make it out to be,

It's because unless you are an archer (most rogues aren't) you have to get into melee range to fight as a rogue. And if you do, your d6 hit dice and Dex/Int/Cha (and not Con) dependency means you'll go down in one to two full-round attacks from half the creatures in the Monster Manual.

Here's an example. An assassin vine is a CR 3. A rogue will not beat the assassin vine's +12 grapple check. That is not going to happen. Even with full ranks in Escape Artist and 18 Dex, you're looking at a +8 bonus (factoring in the -2 ACP from your chain shirt), less if you don't have 18 Dex. If the assassin vine entangles you first, which it will, you have a -4 Dex penalty, so a +6 to Escape Artist.

So the rogue is going to get strangled here. The assassin vine deals 1d6+7, or automatically more than your maximum hit points rolled per level, +1d6. If the assassin vine deals an average of 10 damage per round, and you have 20 hit points, you're dead.

Understand? Hide and Move Silently don't help you live through combat. They help you avoid combat.

[Daftendirekt]

Honestly, in E6, I think scout would be the better choice rather than rogue. Higher hit dice, same amount of skill points, also has precision damage (which gives bonus AC too!) and fast movement (which helps get away from death).

[Kenneth]

It's because unless you are an archer (most rogues aren't) you have to get into melee range to fight as a rogue. And if you do, your d6 hit dice and Dex/Int/Cha (and not Con) dependency means you'll go down in one to two full-round attacks from half the creatures in the Monster Manual.

Here's an example. An assassin vine is a CR 3. A rogue will not beat the assassin vine's +12 grapple check. That is not going to happen. Even with full ranks in Escape Artist and 18 Dex, you're looking at a +8 bonus (factoring in the -2 ACP from your chain shirt), less if you don't have 18 Dex. If the assassin vine entangles you first, which it will, you have a -4 Dex penalty, so a +6 to Escape Artist.

So the rogue is going to get strangled here. The assassin vine deals 1d6+7, or automatically more than your maximum hit points rolled per level, +1d6. If the assassin vine deals an average of 10 damage per round, and you have 20 hit points, you're dead.

Understand? Hide and Move Silently don't help you live through combat. They help you avoid combat.

so.. what you are saying is.. most people don;t play rogues liek rogues.. but fighters with d6 HP and light armor?

Now I see what the difference is here between my groups and most other peoples groups.

[Zaq]

Honestly, in E6, I think scout would be the better choice rather than rogue. Higher hit dice, same amount of skill points, also has precision damage (which gives bonus AC too!) and fast movement (which helps get away from death).

And I do, in fact, have a Scout as a backup character. Have for some time, as a matter of fact.

It occurs to me that Spring Attack might not be a huge waste in E6. You do have the feats for it (not that you don't have anything else to do with them, of course), you probably weren't going to get multiple swings a round anyway if you weren't going for TWF or natural weapons, and it'll keep you out of harm's way. That might actually be an option. I don't usually think about it, since it's usually such a waste. If there's a time and a place for it, though, it'd be in E6.

[NeoSeraphi]

so.. what you are saying is.. most people don;t play rogues liek rogues.. but fighters with d6 HP and light armor?

Now I see what the difference is here between my groups and most other peoples groups.

Exactly. A rogue is a player with two knives. He needs to fight in melee to do damage (because Sneak Attack is really hard to get off with a bow) and he gets owned by a creature in melee range.

At later levels this isn't too bad, because you can get a wand of greater invisibility or something, but that's not an option in Zaq's situation, so he shouldn't be playing a rogue. (You really shouldn't ever play a rogue, but that's just my own personal opinion)

[KoboldCleric]

I have had a fair amount of success in low level games in the past using readied move actions to avoid attacks. Combine with travel devotion, spring/flyby attack, mounted combat, or any other source of extra movement as appropriate.

[Kenneth]

My advice would be to stealth around a battle field and be an opporunistic combantant..

Ive never ever seen a player try to be a bruiser with a rogue, the idea to me is just short of.. no actually its is the definiton of a foolish endeavor.

all the rogues ive played with go around stealthed and when an moment of opportunity comes along they unleashes the core rogue style backstab in teh spleen.


if you want to play a guy who just walks up and trades punches with somebody shouldn' tyou just be a barbarian?

I think the whole playing a rogue.. only playing them not how you are suppsoed to ( in my opinion) is probably teh biggest reaon why everybody thinks rogues are auto death.

agian.. if you want a bruiser why ar eyou playing a class based around stealthed and precise attacks?

the whole idea is completely foreign to me.

[NeoSeraphi]

My advice would be to stealth around a battle field and be an opporunistic combantant..

Ive never ever seen a player try to be a bruiser with a rogue, the idea to me is just short of.. no actually its is the definiton of a foolish endeavor.

all the rogues ive played with go around stealthed and when an moment of opportunity comes along they unleashes the core rogue style backstab in teh spleen.

Backstab is a 2.E ability. In 3.5, you have to be flanking, which means you have to attack a creature that is already engaged in combat with one of your allies, from the exact opposite square that your ally is engaging. And if you hit, you deal weapon damage, plus 1d6 per odd rogue level, not x2 or x4. And creatures in 3.5 have way more hit points than they did in 2.E, so yeah. Rogues need to do more than one attack to bring a creature down.

If you sit around and wait for an opportunity to strike, you're not contributing to the battle, and your teammates won't be happy with you (and you won't be having much fun).

if you want to play a guy who just walks up and trades punches with somebody shouldn' tyou just be a barbarian?

I think the whole playing a rogue.. only playing them not how you are suppsoed to ( in my opinion) is probably teh biggest reaon why everybody thinks rogues are auto death.

agian.. if you want a bruiser why ar eyou playing a class based around stealthed and precise attacks?

the whole idea is completely foreign to me.

It's not that people want to play a bruiser, it's that that's the only effective way to deal damage with a rogue in 3.5. If you don't dual-wield kukris and crit-fish with Weapon Finesse and flanking, you're pretty much dealing 7-10 damage per attack, even at level 20.

[Zaq]

Simple, Kenneth: because combats take more than one round. Or, to put it another way, I'd like to matter in more than one round of combat.

If you can hide, of course you do. If you can go into combat from a stealthy position, you do so without thinking twice. That goes without saying. But once you attack, you're not hidden anymore . . . but there's a good chance there's still something trying to kill you. You can run away and hide, sure, but that's 1) not very helpful to the party and 2) not very much fun, now is it?

I mean, if your combats literally last one round, then sure, stealth is all you need. That's not the game I play, though.

[NeoSeraphi]

Back on topic, Zaq, Spring Attack really is a pretty decent feat for an E6 game, especially if you're playing a scout instead of a rogue. Scouts have Disable Device as a class skill post errata, and they have much better ranged precision options than rogues.

I think you'd be more effective, less likely die, and have more fun as a scout than a rogue.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

My newest favorite rogue build dips a level of wizard...

this gives you a familiar that gives you a bonus to a skill or a save, and a few spells per day to help you out... just another trick up the sleeve, so to speak.

This also allows you to auto-succeed at UMD checks for any item that cast spells from the wizard list. this opens up a lot of common wands and scrolls you may find.

remember, you can use wands, and won't suffer from ASF. scrolls will still incur arcane spell failure though. the no ASF helps an armored rogue out quite a bit.

I'd snag a Wand Bracer from Dungeonscape, as well as install Wand Chambers (also from Dungeonscape) into your weapon and a MW buckler. (Rogues dont have shield prof. but if its MW they incur no penalty on the buckler). The buckler will allow you to have a hand open for wands or scrolls, and the wand chambers will allow you to have your two favorite wands always readied and "wielded". you'll probably want to roll with a rapier. The Wand Bracer will allow you to have up to five wands accessible to be drawn with said free hand with a swift action. Only drawback is you must drop the wand you have in hand (a free action) to draw a different wand. So remember to pick up your wands at the end of battle, and don't let any any surviving enemies run off with them... they could potentially be used against you later.

Point is, you can always have three wands readied and "wielded" with a buckler and wand chambers installed in said buckler and your weapon, and your buckler hand holding the third wand. With a Wand Bracer, you have access to five more wands with a swift action draw.

For a rogue with wands, I usually get: Swift Invisibility (for rapid escapes and quick Sneak Attack damage), Expeditious Retreat, Acid Splash (ranged touch attack, can also be used to damage locks, etc.) Darkvision, Blur, Invisibility (for "long" scouting missions) Improved Invisibility (expensive, but almost guaranteed Sneak attack) Lesser Vigor (out of combat healing) and maybe True strike. It's expensive, but worth it if you have the gold.

Since you you do have low level (but still very useful) spells from your wizard level, grab a Twilight Mithril Chainshirt, or some other low ASF armor, and a mithril buckler when possible.

Alternately, you could get a level of Assassin or Avenger... the spell list isn't as expansive, but it is still has good, to the point spells, and assassin has some nice splatbook spells. Remember, as long as the spell is on your spell list (even if you can't cast it yet) you can use a spell trigger item. I prefer Rogue 1/Wizard 1/ Rogue X because you gain access to more, and better, spells earlier (level 2) than Assassin (level 6), at the cost of 1 BAB, 7 skill points, and an average of 1 HP.

I always have a 14 in CON as a rogue, and Improved Toughness isn't a bad feat for a rogue, nor is Iron Will. Not the best, but still quite useful.

Sorry for the long post!

[W3bDragon]

My newest favorite rogue build dips a level of wizard...

I was going to suggest the same, but for a different reason. 1 level wizard dip with abrupt jaunt increases your survivability significantly.

If you don't take that route, the scout spring attacker seems sound as well.

[The Gilded Duke]

I'd actually set up a 1 level dip in warlock to pick up Darkness as an at will spell like ability. (Also eldritch blast isn't bad for sneak attacking with) Then pick up the feat from Drow of the Underdark that lets you use a Darkness spell like ability to hide in plain sight. If you want more feat investment there are also feats that make your darkness count as deeper darkness or have a very long duration. A second level of Warlock can let you see through any sort of darkness.

[Cieyrin]

You can get Hide in Plain Sight in E6:
Wilderness Rogue gets Hide in Plain Sight available as a Rogue special ability, provided you first have Camouflage;
The E6 Rogue capstone feat gives you a Rogue special ability, but can be taken only once;
Underfolk from Races of Destiny (+0 LA) gets a Camouflage racial ability, which should be sufficient to allow you to gain Hide in Plain Sight.

Warlock + Blend Into Shadows gets you at will HiPS as well.

And I do, in fact, have a Scout as a backup character. Have for some time, as a matter of fact.

It occurs to me that Spring Attack might not be a huge waste in E6. You do have the feats for it (not that you don't have anything else to do with them, of course), you probably weren't going to get multiple swings a round anyway if you weren't going for TWF or natural weapons, and it'll keep you out of harm's way. That might actually be an option. I don't usually think about it, since it's usually such a waste. If there's a time and a place for it, though, it'd be in E6.

Do you want to be straight Rogue 6 or just mostly Rogue, as there's a fine distinction between the two and very different approaches to dealing with it. In either example, alchemy is not a bad idea in the slightest in E6. Example: Tanglefoot bags and Smokesticks. It's harder for things to come up and gank you if they can't move or can't find you.

[Dsurion]

(You really shouldn't ever play a rogue, but that's just my own personal opinion)

That's a pretty strong statement

Do you want to be straight Rogue 6 or just mostly Rogue, as there's a fine distinction between the two and very different approaches to dealing with it. In either example, alchemy is not a bad idea in the slightest in E6. Example: Tanglefoot bags and Smokesticks. It's harder for things to come up and gank you if they can't move or can't find you.

Alchemy isn't bad if you're willing and able to keep buying things as a straight Rogue. Otherwise, keep in mind you have to have at least one level in some kind of caster class to get Craft (Alchemy).

[NeoSeraphi]

That's a pretty strong statement

I have pretty strong feelings about rogues, especially when it comes to their survivability (or complete and total lack of it). I also hate elves, though not quite to the same extent. (I wouldn't say no one should ever play an elf)

Edit: Personally, I don't see why everyone calls the monk poster boy for MAD when the rogue has much bigger issues.

Rogue has the absolute lowest hit dice for a melee character. So you need Constitution. Check.

Rogue has the absolute largest skill list in core. So you need Intelligence. Check. (8 skill points per level, 26 class skills, and that's not including Craft, Perform, or Profession)

Rogues either want to TWF or they want to be archers, to make the most out of their Sneak Attack. So you need Dexterity to qualify for weapon-style feats. 19 Dexterity, for the best ones. Also you need it as your only true source of AC, to add to all your rogue stealth skills, and to use your Evasion ability. Dexterity, check.

Rogue has every Charisma-based skill except Handle Animal as a class skill. With squishy hit dice, you want to be able to talk your way out of things. So you need high Charisma. Check.

If you don't want to die from phantasmal rogue killer, you need high Wisdom. It's not really that much of an issue, so long as you don't mind being charmed, dominated, and falling victim to every illusion in the book.

And you need just enough Strength to prevent yourself from having a damage penalty on your melee rolls. So 10 Str. Check.

Not to mention the feat tax. Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack to be a skirmisher. Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting to be a bruiser. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Manyshot to be an archer. And you get no bonus feats, unless you want to take away from your clever rogue tricks, which are pretty much your only class feature other than Fistful of d6 (Ex).

Yep. The rogue is pretty much just an awfully designed class, in my opinion. But that's just because I've seen 7 or 8 rogues die horrible, horrible deaths at the tables I play at. (And we played a long game without a rogue. Traps were aplenty. They didn't bother us quite as much as you'd think. In fact, it was much more entertaining to walk into a trap and have to deal with it than to simply have the rogue deactivate it, even if it did cost us hit points every time)

[Cieyrin]

Alchemy isn't bad if you're willing and able to keep buying things as a straight Rogue. Otherwise, keep in mind you have to have at least one level in some kind of caster class to get Craft (Alchemy).

I'm aware, though there are ways around it. Greater Draconic Rite of Passage comes to mind, though that feels like overkill just to be able to brew up some Krazyglue, y'know?

I have pretty strong feelings about rogues, especially when it comes to their survivability (or complete and total lack of it). I also hate elves, though not quite to the same extent. (I wouldn't say no one should ever play an elf)

Edit: Personally, I don't see why everyone calls the monk poster boy for MAD when the rogue has much bigger issues.

Rogue has the absolute lowest hit dice for a melee character. So you need Constitution. Check.

Rogue has the absolute largest skill list in core. So you need Intelligence. Check. (8 skill points per level, 26 class skills, and that's not including Craft, Perform, or Profession)

Rogues either want to TWF or they want to be archers, to make the most out of their Sneak Attack. So you need Dexterity to qualify for weapon-style feats. 19 Dexterity, for the best ones. Dexterity. Check.

Rogue has every Charisma-based skill except Handle Animal as a class skill. With squishy hit dice, you want to be able to talk your way out of things. So you need high Charisma. Check.

If you don't want to die from phantasmal rogue killer, you need high Wisdom. It's not really that much of an issue, so long as you don't mind being charmed, dominated, and falling victim to every illusion in the book.

And you need just enough Strength to prevent yourself from having a damage penalty on your melee rolls. So 10 Str. Check.

Yep. The rogue is pretty much just an awfully designed class, in my opinion. But that's just because I've seen 7 or 8 rogues die horrible, horrible deaths at the tables I play at. (And we played a long game without a rogue. Traps were aplenty. They didn't bother us quite as much as you'd think. In fact, it was much more entertaining to walk into a trap and have to deal with it than to simply have the rogue deactivate it, even if it did cost us hit points every time)

I disagree about Str and Wis, as Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade + Sneak Attack makes that -1 or -2 to damage negligible when you add +1d6+3 or something silly like that. Force of Personality takes care of most Will saves that you care about. And saying Rogues need Con doesn't change the effect that so does everyone else in the game that expects to live to higher levels, b/c generally no matter how careful or clever you think you are, something will go wrong and something will hit you and HP is the measure that keeps you not dead. So, really, a Rogue can focus on Dex and Int, with a healthy respect for Con and Cha, and work. And really, just b/c you have face skills doesn't mean you are forced to be the face, especially if you have a Bard or Paladin in the party who can handle that themselves. Even if you want to be a secondary Face, that doesn't mean you need to have everything high or you need to put all your eggs in one basket. Let the Fighter or Barbarian focus on Intimidate, the Bards and Clerics can Diplomacy, Sorcerers and Rogues can and should Bluff.

[Coidzor]

It saddens me that over the years "keeping a character alive" has come to rely on the numbers and terms on a character sheet rather than player creativity and improvisation.

You keep a rogue alive by staying one step ahead, cunning, quick wits etc. Your DM should cater to this.

So you suggest doing away with the combat round, initiative count, etc. but don't propose any alternative?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Exactly. A rogue is a player with two knives. He needs to fight in melee to do damage... (You really shouldn't ever play a rogue, but that's just my own personal opinion)

Well, up until level 10 or so, a rogue with a buckler and and a rapier has more survivability and long term damage output over that of a TWF. TWF is too expensive, dangerous, and inaccurate and low levels.

ericgrau in fact did a lot of math to prove that, and made a very good case for it to me a couple years back.

the two knives rogue has a high theoretical damage output... but in practice, it fails, and sucks at survival as a result. Survival is rule one of playing a rogue.

If the TWF blender rogue is what you think of when you think "rogue", that is probably why you are of the opinion no one should play one. Because, again, a TWF rogue is often doomed to high mortality rates in the early levels, due to inaccuracy of attacks, generally low to mid AC, low HP for melee, and poor saves.

Again, I posit my suggestions for rogues:
1.) wear a MW buckler, wield a rapier, dagger, shortsword, whatever. a one handed weapon.
2.) max out UMD and/or (even better) dip a level of wizard, or (Even better than that), Cloistered Cleric with the Magic Domain. it never seems right flavor-wise for me, but its great.
3.) wear a wand bracer on your buckler arm.
4.) install wand chambers in both your main weapon and your buckler.
5.) pick up every wand, get your party to chip in on wands, buy wands.

UMD is hands down THE best skill in the game. as a rogue, you have it as a class skill, which not many other classes can say. with a wizard/cloistered cleric dip, you don't even need it, you succeed at it 100% of the time.

If you are NOT a caster, how do you remain relevant? By emulating as much of their universe, rule bending power as possible. What allows that? Wands, scrolls, and any item that allows you to cast a spell from it. How do you use them? by having a free hand (1H weapon, buckler) and a high UMD. (and/or level of wizard/cloistered cleric for auto success).

[Coidzor]

If a buckler really makes all that of a difference in surviability... are Dastana on the table?