Mage slayer

[NineThePuma]

Its not that psionics doesn't fit anti-magic in general. Its that it doesn't fit with this character. Deciding to be against casters, but still use as system thats magic-but-we-won't-call-it-that is defeating the point.

... No it isn't.

Psionics has very different fluff. Maybe the character explicitly has a beef with people who touch The Weave, or something. That's Magic, and Psionics doesn't have any affect on it from fluff.

[Mystify]

... No it isn't.

Psionics has very different fluff. Maybe the character explicitly has a beef with people who touch The Weave, or something. That's Magic, and Psionics doesn't have any affect on it from fluff.

Yes, fluff-wise, its not magic. But really, its magic.

[MeeposFire]

... No it isn't.

Psionics has very different fluff. Maybe the character explicitly has a beef with people who touch The Weave, or something. That's Magic, and Psionics doesn't have any affect on it from fluff.

He doesn't want something with overt magic like effects. Granted he seems to be fine with in what we have in 3.5 as supernatural magic abilities like smiting but doesn't want anything even remotely similar to magic.

[NineThePuma]

... *sigh* Whatever. In that case, you're doomed to failure, as outlined by a dozen people on page 1.

Mind, I think Fax's build is nifty as crap, and am going to steal it.

[kulosle]

maybe this time this will post. So having made a mage slayer for a very high optimization campaign recently I would like to say that archery is your best bet for getting the NPC out of there alive. He doesn't have a beef against the rest of the party so engaging in melee doesn't make sense for the character. Sniping fits the feel the best. Well the next comment that is made is, "but how do you hit someone with a bow from far enough away to escape and still do damage?" The primary sniping methods does have a very little damage output and is generally unreliable. Answer is Inspire Courage optimization. If you don't to do bard then play a paladin with the spell less and harmonizing knight variants. Also there was a spell less bard floating around on this forum some where. Send some goons in to attack the party. The goons main job is to get the wizard out of his immune to damage form, using shape change shenanigans, via disjunction or dispelling or whatever it takes, don't make the goons to much of a threat that the wizard feels the need to take evasive action, they should be easily squish-able, and they need to get him to use clarity. You, who are watching this through any of the methods used to see farther than normal, have a readied action to shoot your many shot when the wizard cast clarity, your action resolves first and you should be able to kill with one attack. Then you use a customized teleportation item to get the hell out of there. Rinse and repeat.

[gkathellar]

archery is your best bet

Contingency: Wind Wall.

[kulosle]

Who saves there contingency for wind wall? Plus there are ways around that, like shooting a ballista or any other huge sized weapon. There are others but i don't remeber them off the top of my head.

[gkathellar]

Okay, Craft Contingent Spell: Wind Wall. And yes, a ballista will work, but a solid wizard has a dozen other defenses beyond that, up at all times.

[kulosle]

This is what the goons strike for is suppose to do. But i'll admit its not a perfect plane but it usually gets the job done and it puts the archer in very little danger.

[Kittenwolf]

Just off the bat, I like the idea of Mage slayer builds, I like the thought that someone should be able to take down these guys. However, how would a build deal with a Mage that simply has a dozen Craft Contingent Spells setup for "If I would be subjected to and affected by a spell, effect or attack that I do not wish to be subjected to, dimension door me 300ft in a random, non-entombing direction" then another that is "if I have run out of contingent dimension doors, word of recall"?

[kulosle]

By straight up melee attacking them, because someone who focuses all his spells into defense is going to die under repetitive attack.

[Kittenwolf]

Those are crafted contingencies though, fallbacks if you will, not spells used that day. With this setup you attack, he vanishes away, then on his turn nukes, CCs or whatever else seems appropriate.

[kulosle]

Ah okay. So i'm AFB but can a contingency be that specific? If so the only response I could think of is if the character became aware of this problem, then attacked in response to the last contingency going off. But that would be hard to do.

[Mystify]

we need some form of dimensional lock to keep teleport happy casters pinned.

[kulosle]

I honestly don't think a long chain of contingencies set up could be prevented stop. I personally would house rule that you can't start with so many cast. And if he tried to start to set up this ridiculous chain he would be attacked. Its the same logic as saying pun pun shouldn't be allowed to happen.

[Flickerdart]

Its not that psionics doesn't fit anti-magic in general. Its that it doesn't fit with this character. Deciding to be against casters, but still use as system thats magic-but-we-won't-call-it-that is defeating the point.

At least that'd be one thing that build could defeat. *rimshot*

[kulosle]

we need some form of dimensional lock to keep teleport happy casters pinned.

I would also disagree with this. I tried doing so and the second that a caster is dimensional anchored they feel in danger and throw up every defense they could possibly muster. I prefer the out of no where instant kill.

[Kittenwolf]

I honestly don't think a long chain of contingencies set up could be prevented stop. I personally would house rule that you can't start with so many cast. And if he tried to start to set up this ridiculous chain he would be attacked. Its the same logic as saying pun pun shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Actually, by RAW setting up contingencies like that is quite legal (using Craft Contingent Spell, not the Contingency spell), you'd certainly be within your rights to house-rule the page if you wanted to, but by RAW it's fine.

But anyways, this one was kicking around my head last night as an example :)

Meet Steven the Wizard. Former adventurer, foodie and researcher. Steven was a mighty adventurer in his younger days, but having reached middle age he spends most of his days in his custom-built tower with his familiar Mittens.
Steven dedicates most of his time to researching Immortality, wanting to keep living without the pesky "Becoming undead" thing that most casters have to resort to.

However, there's a food festival going on in a couple of days and he really wants to be there, so he's taking some time off research to sample some of this year's new delights.
Unbeknownst to Steven however, a disgruntled cook has hired a Mage Slayer to kill Steven. Steven only gave his waffles two stars last year and the cook is out for revenge....

Steven has a bit of a ritual that he goes through whenever he leaves his tower, a slightly-paranoid series of tasks and spells that he still goes through, just in case.

Ten or Twelve hours before he plans to leave all he casts Greater Consumptive Field and goes for a quick jog through the house. This accomplishes two things:
1) It kills off all the vermin and insects that inevitably get into the tower (and all the ants that always find the honey)
2) It temporarily boosts his caster level by 20-40, making spells last longer

He then casts on himself:
Moment of Prescience
Greater Mage Armor
Heart of Fire/Water/Earth/Air/Heart
Any other Hour/Level buffs he can think of
A couple of Energy Immunities
Mind Blank
Anticipate Teleportation
Contingency (Death Ward if struck by an effect it would negate)

After this he goes back to his usual duties for a while, has a nice meal and a siesta in his Heward's Fortifying Bedroll.
It's then back up, cast Foresight and a couple more Energy Immunities (so he's immune to them all), and ready to head off to town!

Being a Wizard he always wears two rings of Counterspelling containing Greater Dispel Magic, and has a trusty scroll of Greater Spell Immunity (just in case).
And of course, like all Arcane casters he has See Invisibility & Arcane Sight permanancied.

He also has the following Craft Contingent Spells:
1) If I'm about to be affected by a Mordenkeinen's Disjunction, Word of Recall
2) If I'm about to die, Word of Recall
3) If I'm about to be damaged by an attack, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (on myself)

If he does end up in trouble his Foresight will warn him, and he'll usually then cast Time Stop (Effulgent Epparation, Superior Invisibility, Greater Blink and whatever else seems appropriate) and then decide what to do against his foes.

How would a mage slayer deal with Steven?

[Mystify]

Actually, by RAW setting up contingencies like that is quite legal (using Craft Contingent Spell, not the Contingency spell), you'd certainly be within your rights to house-rule the page if you wanted to, but by RAW it's fine.

But anyways, this one was kicking around my head last night as an example :)

Meet Steven the Wizard. Former adventurer, foodie and researcher. Steven was a mighty adventurer in his younger days, but having reached middle age he spends most of his days in his custom-built tower with his familiar Mittens.
Steven dedicates most of his time to researching Immortality, wanting to keep living without the pesky "Becoming undead" thing that most casters have to resort to.

However, there's a food festival going on in a couple of days and he really wants to be there, so he's taking some time off research to sample some of this year's new delights.
Unbeknownst to Steven however, a disgruntled cook has hired a Mage Slayer to kill Steven. Steven only gave his waffles two stars last year and the cook is out for revenge....

Steven has a bit of a ritual that he goes through whenever he leaves his tower, a slightly-paranoid series of tasks and spells that he still goes through, just in case.

Ten or Twelve hours before he plans to leave all he casts Greater Consumptive Field and goes for a quick jog through the house. This accomplishes two things:
1) It kills off all the vermin and insects that inevitably get into the tower (and all the ants that always find the honey)
2) It temporarily boosts his caster level by 20-40, making spells last longer

He then casts on himself:
Moment of Prescience
Greater Mage Armor
Heart of Fire/Water/Earth/Air/Heart
Any other Hour/Level buffs he can think of
A couple of Energy Immunities
Mind Blank
Anticipate Teleportation
Contingency (Death Ward if struck by an effect it would negate)

After this he goes back to his usual duties for a while, has a nice meal and a siesta in his Heward's Fortifying Bedroll.
It's then back up, cast Foresight and a couple more Energy Immunities (so he's immune to them all), and ready to head off to town!

Being a Wizard he always wears two rings of Counterspelling containing Greater Dispel Magic, and has a trusty scroll of Greater Spell Immunity (just in case).

He also has the following Craft Contingent Spells:
1) If I'm about to be affected by a Mordenkeinen's Disjunction, Word of Recall
2) If I'm about to die, Word of Recall
3) If I'm about to be damaged by an attack, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (on myself)

If he does end up in trouble his Foresight will warn him, and he'll usually then cast Time Stop (Effulgent Epparation, Greater Blink and whatever else seems appropriate) and then decide what to do against his foes.

How would a mage slayer deal with Steven?

Have the DM ban him for consumptive field abuse.

apart from that, I'll puut together a strategy later. I'm exhausted atm.

[deuxhero]

Even if you don't have wind-wall, lesser cloak of displacement is 20% chances of him just not hitting.

[kulosle]

I think steve would be on the bottom of the list of mages to kill for the majority of mage slayers. He's not going around causing trouble. But if I were to try and kill him I would use two mage slayers. One that is the archer i already explained using force damage and one that is a tank. A unkillable juggernaut that gets steve to need to use his "if i die contingency word of recall, the archer readies an attack that if he teleports away to make an attack. that once a gain should kill him. I'd have to actually sit down with books to make this a solid plan but this is my basic set up.

edit: Pierce magical concealment, what mage slayer wouldn't have it?

[Kittenwolf]

Have the DM ban him for consumptive field abuse.

apart from that, I'll puut together a strategy later. I'm exhausted atm.

Replace consumptive field with Karma Bead and nothing changes other than the check to dispel the spells, and how much 'overtime' the spells have.

Even if you don't have wind-wall, lesser cloak of displacement is 20% chances of him just not hitting.

Yeah, Wind Wall is an option there too :). This guy wasn't intended to be uber optimised, or to have any magic items that will noticably alter what he looks like (he doesn't want 50% displacement while eating dinner after all :) ).
People wanted a "Realistic" Wizard to attack against, so here they go.

[Kittenwolf]

I think steve would be on the bottom of the list of mages to kill for the majority of mage slayers. He's not going around causing trouble. But if I were to try and kill him I would use two mage slayers. One that is the archer i already explained using force damage and one that is a tank. A unkillable juggernaut that gets steve to need to use his "if i die contingency word of recall, the archer readies an attack that if he teleports away to make an attack. that once a gain should kill him. I'd have to actually sit down with books to make this a solid plan but this is my basic set up.

1) *how* are you planning to "get Steve to use his contingency"
2) How do you know about his contingencies in the first place?
3) I'm pretty sure you can't ready an action against a free action/reaction

[gkathellar]

People wanted a "Realistic" Wizard to attack against, so here they go.

Psh. A "realistic" 20th-level wizard has a high enough intelligence to have read the evil overlord handbook, whether or not he's evil. He probably doesn't allow any dedicated wizard-slayers that he doesn't directly or indirectly control to remain alive, because that would be dumb. Even if a wizard slayer poses very little credible threat to you, you don't just let someone run around saying, "I'm killing all the members of your profession!"

These builds always assume that the mage slayer is the one doing the hunting, even though wizards have far better tools for hiding and for information gathering than any mage slayer could dream of. Go around killing low-level wizards on your way up, and high level wizards are going to start keeping tabs on you. And by "tabs" I mean "kill them just to be sure they catch me on my way home from a long day of god-punching."

[kulosle]

1) *how* are you planning to "get Steve to use his contingency"
2) How do you know about his contingencies in the first place?
3) I'm pretty sure you can't ready an action against a free action/reaction

1)like i said not entirely sure on the details, AFB, but maybe a pair of archers. 2)The only leg up a mage slayer can gain on a mage is information, when i talk about mage slayers i assume they have stalked their target long enough to know how dangerous they are and how long much planning they need to do. If I was a mage slayer I would send goons after goons till I knew enough about him. In this case i'd learn that steve likes to teleport away. So that would be the cue for my attack.
3)not sure about this either now that i think of it, i don't see anything in the rules against it, But i'm mearly skimming the SRD. Does anyone know more on this?

Psh. A "realistic" 20th-level wizard has a high enough intelligence to have read the evil overlord handbook, whether or not he's evil. He probably doesn't allow any dedicated wizard-slayers that he doesn't directly or indirectly control to remain alive, because that would be dumb. Even if a wizard slayer poses very little credible threat to you, you don't just let someone run around saying, "I'm killing all the members of your profession!"

These builds always assume that the mage slayer is the one doing the hunting, even though wizards have far better tools for hiding and for information gathering than any mage slayer could dream of. Go around killing low-level wizards on your way up, and high level wizards are going to start keeping tabs on you. And by "tabs" I mean "kill them just to be sure they catch me on my way home from a long day of god-punching."

Yes wizards could hunt mage slayers better than mage slayers could hunt wizards. But how many PCs do you know that derail the plot to go hunt mage slayers?

[Mystify]

Actually, by RAW setting up contingencies like that is quite legal (using Craft Contingent Spell, not the Contingency spell), you'd certainly be within your rights to house-rule the page if you wanted to, but by RAW it's fine.

But anyways, this one was kicking around my head last night as an example :)

Meet Steven the Wizard. Former adventurer, foodie and researcher. Steven was a mighty adventurer in his younger days, but having reached middle age he spends most of his days in his custom-built tower with his familiar Mittens.
Steven dedicates most of his time to researching Immortality, wanting to keep living without the pesky "Becoming undead" thing that most casters have to resort to.

However, there's a food festival going on in a couple of days and he really wants to be there, so he's taking some time off research to sample some of this year's new delights.
Unbeknownst to Steven however, a disgruntled cook has hired a Mage Slayer to kill Steven. Steven only gave his waffles two stars last year and the cook is out for revenge....

Steven has a bit of a ritual that he goes through whenever he leaves his tower, a slightly-paranoid series of tasks and spells that he still goes through, just in case.

Ten or Twelve hours before he plans to leave all he casts Greater Consumptive Field and goes for a quick jog through the house. This accomplishes two things:
1) It kills off all the vermin and insects that inevitably get into the tower (and all the ants that always find the honey)
2) It temporarily boosts his caster level by 20-40, making spells last longer

He then casts on himself:
Moment of Prescience
Greater Mage Armor
Heart of Fire/Water/Earth/Air/Heart
Any other Hour/Level buffs he can think of
A couple of Energy Immunities
Mind Blank
Anticipate Teleportation
Contingency (Death Ward if struck by an effect it would negate)

After this he goes back to his usual duties for a while, has a nice meal and a siesta in his Heward's Fortifying Bedroll.
It's then back up, cast Foresight and a couple more Energy Immunities (so he's immune to them all), and ready to head off to town!

Being a Wizard he always wears two rings of Counterspelling containing Greater Dispel Magic, and has a trusty scroll of Greater Spell Immunity (just in case).

He also has the following Craft Contingent Spells:
1) If I'm about to be affected by a Mordenkeinen's Disjunction, Word of Recall
2) If I'm about to die, Word of Recall
3) If I'm about to be damaged by an attack, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (on myself)

If he does end up in trouble his Foresight will warn him, and he'll usually then cast Time Stop (Effulgent Epparation, Greater Blink and whatever else seems appropriate) and then decide what to do against his foes.

How would a mage slayer deal with Steven?

Have the DM ban him for consumptive field abuse.

apart from that, I'll puut together a strategy later. I'm exhausted atm.

[Kittenwolf]

1)like i said not entirely sure on the details, AFB, but maybe a pair of archers.

Will be interesting to see what you think, since your first volley at least should fail.

2)The only leg up a mage slayer can gain on a mage is information, when i talk about mage slayers i assume they have stalked their target long enough to know how dangerous they are and how long much planning they need to do. If I was a mage slayer I would send goons after goons till I knew enough about him. In this case i'd learn that steve likes to teleport away. So that would be the cue for my attack.

Unfortunately that assumption is drastically flawed. First of all how do you stalk someone in a tower, and secondly as has been pointed out the moment you start sending "waves of goons" you're going to be the target of every information gathering spell in the game, and the Wizard can do it a lot better than you can with scrolls or bought spells.

3)not sure about this either now that i think of it, i don't see anything in the rules against it, But i'm mearly skimming the SRD. Does anyone know more on this?

Pretty you can ready an action against another action (ie, "I ready an action when he casts Teleport") but not against something that literally has no 'trigger' (like a contingent spell).

[NineThePuma]

Joker Bard anyone?

[Midnight_v]

Have the DM ban him for consumptive field abuse.

apart from that, I'll puut together a strategy later. I'm exhausted atm.

You know thats not amusing right? It just makes you look petulant.
Much like what you're trying to do. Steve is the Dm's npc wizard.

Also what you're trying to do is kinda wrong. Even if we spoon feed you every possibility, every contingency, and every probablility...

You're going to end up with something that insta-gibs someones character.
Why go through all the rigamorole when it going to be a "rocks fall" everyone dies moment? Or worse "you're charcter is dead"; "no save" moment.
The way you're presenting comes off as terrible "I'll get you my pc's!" dm'ing.
Thats 1.

2nd: The utter hypocrisy of a guy who has a mage cohort on hand to make him "Magic items" but who hate magics is staggering.
Thats WORSE by far than the Psionics (magic) thing. Any reasonable person who you run that by is going to look at you like you lost your gib.

All that being said. . .

Do you know what the characters builds are?
Is this Npc supposed to die? Live to harass?
Does he exist simple as a way to let the Melee's shine for a battle or 2?

I want to help really but, I'm hoping I'm getting an incorrect veiw of what your goal is here.
What do you want this guy to do in the story?

[Mystify]

You know thats not amusing right? It just makes you look petulant.
Much like what you're trying to do. Steve is the Dm's npc wizard.

Also what you're trying to do is kinda wrong. Even if we spoon feed you every possibility, every contingency, and every probablility...

You're going to end up with something that insta-gibs someones character.
Why go through all the rigamorole when it going to be a "rocks fall" everyone dies moment? Or worse "you're charcter is dead"; "no save" moment.
The way you're presenting comes off as terrible "I'll get you my pc's!" dm'ing.
Thats 1.

2nd: The utter hypocrisy of a guy who has a mage cohort on hand to make him "Magic items" but who hate magics is staggering.
Thats WORSE by far than the Psionics (magic) thing. Any reasonable person who you run that by is going to look at you like you lost your gib.

All that being said. . .

Do you know what the characters builds are?
Is this Npc supposed to die? Live to harass?
Does he exist simple as a way to let the Melee's shine for a battle or 2?

I want to help really but, I'm hoping I'm getting an incorrect veiw of what your goal is here.
What do you want this guy to do in the story?

1. Its only appears that way because this thread is about a singlular episode. see point 3

2. The scenario I gave was a "reformed" mage. a powerful mage that he has managed to convinvce of his veiwpoint, and so does not cast spells anymore, but still has all of his pre-existing knowledge and skills to craft items. And they would be crafting anti-magic items. And realistically, they have to accept using magic items, because otherwise your character is non-functional. Not even just non-functional in a mage-slaying capacity, but non-functional period. You could even have the item crafter be an artificier, then they aren't even a spellcaster at all.

3. I have no clue what the character builds would be. The campaign doesn't even exist at the moment. that is part of why I am creating something like htis now. They can only specialize their build against hypothetical mages, not the specific mage in the party. the only way to justify haveing the build be specialized against a specific character is if they were specificially bred/trained/raised ot combat that character, which generally doesn't make sense outside of a generational evil overlord scenario. Equipment selection and strategy can be gears towards a character with proper justification since those are malleable after the point you decide to hunt the character.

in the actual campaign, it would start as rumours. first the party happens across a rumour that john the mage died, then sally the witch, and after while they start realizing that there is someone picking off mages. eventually they would go after the party, and have to be convincing that they could have killed these other mages off, and seriously scare the caster. When you realize someone is hunting you, it has no impact if they wouldn't be able to kill you. Its when you realize you are being hunted, and if caught, you are going to be rend limb from limb, and you won't be able to stop them that the fear kicks in. the actual encounter with the character is not the point. its not going to be some guy appearing out of nowhere, ganking the wizard, and dissapearing.

So the party will be trying to figure out who has been killing these mages, figure out how to not get killed by them, while trying to devise a method to stop him. if a key element is the artificier customizing his items against the spellcasters, part of their strategy might become tracking down and stopping this support. they may eventually witness/have a chance to interfere with another assassination attempt on another wizard, where he is not prepped to
take down the party mage. This would present an opportunity to display his ability to take on amges, demonstrate his ability to negate spellcasting against him, and let him leave to recur later.

This would not be the only thing going on, merely one element of the game world, so they party may not consider him the primary threat that they need to spend all their effort tracking down, but presents an issue that they would constantly have to be on guard against.