Pokémon XII: Truth of the Ideal Thread

[Mando Knight]

When you first create data for Global Link, does it usually take an ungodly amount of time?

Yes.

Or, at least, that's how I remember it.

[Othesemo]

You know something? I hate starmies with a passion. The things just destroy my team. Any advice on checks and counters for everyone's favorite purple star? If it matters, my current team is an agiligross, bulky dragon dance gyarados, and a swords dance gliscor (this is for the battle institute, so 3 pokemon limit).

[boj0]

If Scizor has some SpDef investment, he should be able to tank at least one hit and come back with a Bug Bite or U-Turn, also if Metagross has Thunderpunch, it should be able to set up and hit. Other than that, Gengar is always nice, naturally faster and has access to Shadow Ball for delicious damage, and Ferrothorn utterly walls just about any Starmie.

[boj0]

So I won a tournament today, uploaded all the matches into a convenient, travel-sized video, and am working on my next video. Good day for Pokemon

[LansXero]

So asking again about my lvl. 20 challenge. Whats up with Agrom (small armored metal type) and shroomish? are they a danger? Also, how does one nullify a wubbofett at that level? :D

[NineThePuma]

You... can't really nullify Wobbuffet at all, which is why he's in Ubers.

[Othesemo]

If you specifically need something to counter wobbufet, just go for a combination of toxic, any stat-boosting move, and baton pass. Provided you're faster than it, you shouldn't have to worry about anything.

Of course, the usefulness of such a pokemon outside of wobuffet mauling would be pretty limited.

[LansXero]

If you specifically need something to counter wobbufet, just go for a combination of toxic, any stat-boosting move, and baton pass. Provided you're faster than it, you shouldn't have to worry about anything.

Of course, the usefulness of such a pokemon outside of wobuffet mauling would be pretty limited.

Is it doable at 20? :D

[tgva8889]

You can't nullify Wobbuffet. Period. It has Shadow Tag. Unless all your Pokemon have Baton Pass, you will get trapped by it.

Speaking of Baton Pass, might be a decent way to win a Level 20 Gen III game. I mean, Ninjask is a Pokemon you can obtain at level 20, isn't it? (I guess he can't get Baton Pass...Ninjask is still sweet with a Choice Band, though!)

[OracleofWuffing]

Aron is not a concern. This is before he could wield a FEAR strategy, so all you're looking at is a Rock/Steel type with poor special defense and speed (hello, Starmie!). And even with his physical defense, he's still 4x weak to Ground and Fighting.

You can't nullify Wobbuffet per se because you can't switch out once he switches in. It is possible to have all of your pokemon have an off-stat attack (that is, carry both physical and special attacks) so that your opponent can't guess your attacks properly, but success in that case is all a mind game, and you're diminishing your own effectiveness on anything not Wobbuffet.

Conceptually, you can revenge-kill Wobbuffet with a Ghost-type using Physical Attack, or a Dark-type using a Special Attack (Counter and Mirror Coat respect immunities in Generation 2 on). Sableye would be the go-to physical ghost, but he's Sapphire exclusive. Shuppet's probably the next guy up in terms of raw stats, but given that Wobbuffet can't hit you, the attack stat might not be relevant. Special Dark-Type would probably be Houndour, though again, the strength of your attack matters little when he can't hit you.

Pokemon that can Baton Pass? Scyther has it as an Egg Move, so potentially Scizor, but I thought you said you couldn't trade. Mawhile's a possibility, but the stats are kinda low. Absol can do it, but in Gen 3, the attacks you use to take advantage of his Attack stats are... Return. Spinda can do it, too, but Spinda's Spinda.

[tgva8889]

Absol can actually use Shadow Ball as well, which is sorta type coverage. Yeah, stretching a little.

[OracleofWuffing]

Absol can actually use Shadow Ball as well, which is sorta type coverage. Yeah, stretching a little.

Huh, forgot Ghost was a physical attack back then. Well, if you carry Baton Pass on Absol, you can also pack up Swords Dance to make the best of the situation. Hooray, no STAB moveset!

Also, yeah, Shoomish is a potential surprise threat, as is Smeargle for the same reason (spore). Heracross handily wrecks both of them, though, and most of your pokemon should be able to heavily dent either one before they fall asleep.

[tgva8889]

I don't think Smeargle is legal in the format he's talking about... Not sure about that.

I think Heracross is a must-use. It's really ridiculous. He's just such a beatstick, and because of how breeding works he can have his full moveset of awesome. Few Pokemon legal in this tournament can deal with him, especially at the ridiculously low levels. Even Skarmory takes 40% damage from neutral Brick Break. Skarm does totally wall Megahorn, though. Heracross might be sweet with Bulk Up, though. Bulk Up, Rest, Sleep Talk, [Attacking Move] might be plausible?

Y'know, Torkoal is a pretty sweet one. Huge defense, pretty decent other offenses, Stealth Rocks aren't a thing so Fire-types don't inherently suck. Torkoal can also be a huge threat or a staller due to awesome stats and learning sweet moves like Overheat and Eruption. Definitely worth considering.

Azumarill? Huge HP, and Huge Power. Smash people with Return? Maybe plausible.

Ninjask seems like a super-huge powerhouse, but it's way more fragile than Heracross. But it is literally the fastest Pokemon you could use, and with a Swords Dance you can destroy with Speed Boost. Shedinja is also friking hilarious, and you might catch someone with their pants down with it. (Shedinja also forces Wobbuffet out.)

[Talvereaux]

While you can't traditionally counter it, it is possible to prepare for it, which you should in any context where it's legal.

My suggestions for beating Wobbuffet include:

• First and most important, if you get to make a choice between getting your active Pokemon countercoated by Wobbuffet or giving it an opportunity to set up a sweep, pick the former before the latter. You'll have better luck finishing off a dented Wobbuffet than revenge killing a healthy, boosted sweeper. Avoid using Ghost-type attacks to check Wobbuffet if possible (unless it's in 1HKO range), as it's a known strategy to use Wobbuffet to help Smeargle set up a Belly Drum Pass.
  
• Save sleep clause for it if at all possible. The most general check ever, in other words. If your tournament doesn't run sleep clause, then Wobbuffet's the least of your concerns and you should be preparing for the Narcolepsy Metagame.
  
• In Gen III, Trace + setup is the best RK possible. Gardevoir's not an option with the level restriction while Kirlia's probably too weak to be worth the teamslot, but Porygon2 is legal and strong enough for the job. Copy Shadow Tag, trapping Wobbuffet in the process, get 6 Sharpens in--possibly 3 Agilities as well, but Sharpen is what's absolutely necessary--then 1HKO it off with a + 6 Shadow Ball.
  
• Taunt + any support move; optimally a setup move. While Taunt doesn't prevent Counter and Mirror Coat, it does stop Wobbuffet from using Encore. This strategy netted me loads of ragequits from Wobbuffet users with my DD + Taunt Gyarados in Random wi-fi (which is an illegal set for your tournament, but there are other options that are legal, e.g. SD + Taunt Absol, or CM + Taunt Alakazam for two examples).
  
• If you do decide to use Wobbuffet for yourself, do yourself and everyone you're playing with a favor and don't run Leftovers. In Gen III, you run the risk of creating an unfinishable battle by doing so, due to Gen III's mechanics for Struggle. In addition, if you do end up in a Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet kerfuffle that way, you get the upper hand if the enemy runs Lefties because you'll get to send in your RK on a struggling Wobbuffet, giving you the upper hand and potential setup. My suggestion, however, is not to run Wobbuffet at all, because even if a Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet confrontation is winnable, it will still take a very long time.

Think of it like the prisoner's dilemma. If neither player runs Wobbuffet, it's good for everyone. If one player runs Wobbuffet, they get the upper hand through a cheap--but beatable--Pokemon and strategy. If both players run Wobbuffet, both players are in for the most unimaginably boring encounter the series has to offer. And to tell the truth, they probably deserve it.

[OracleofWuffing]

I don't think Smeargle is legal in the format he's talking about... Not sure about that.

-other stuff very good-

Ninjask seems like a super-huge powerhouse, but it's way more fragile than Heracross. But it is literally the fastest Pokemon you could use, and with a Swords Dance you can destroy with Speed Boost.

I think Ruby-only is just because that's the cartridge available. An opponent using Emerald could use Smeargle.

Ninjask can't learn Swords Dance until level 25, and it can't be bred onto Nincada.

[tgva8889]

How are you getting Porygon2 or Smeargle in this? I thought it was only Pokemon caught in Ruby or Sapphire...?

Swords Dance is technically a Move Tutor that Ninjask can learn.

Ugh, why did they even give Encore to Wobbuffet?

[Talvereaux]

oops, guess I should have doublechecked the rules.

I guess that nullifies that strategy. Unless you're desperate enough for the Porygon spackle enough to waste a teamslot on the otherwise useless Kirlia--which you shouldn't.

[tgva8889]

There is a decent way to foil Wobbuffet: Run Toxic on all your Pokemon, and be really good at prediction.

[OracleofWuffing]

They also gave Wobbuffet Safeguard, but he'll almost always be outsped and poisoned before setting it up.

How are you getting Porygon2 or Smeargle in this? I thought it was only Pokemon caught in Ruby or Sapphire...?

He's looking for pokemon that can only be caught in Ruby, as that's the version he's playing. It's unclear whether other folks are running Sapphire, Emerald, FireRed, or LeafGreen. So while he can't run stuff like Smeargle, Porygon2, or Swords Dance Ninjask, that sort of thing can presumedly be ran against him. It's okay, though, he gets access to Zangoose while others don't.

[tgva8889]

Oh, okay. Well, I strongly suggest Heracross and either Skarmory or Torkoal. I think Torkoal is a sweet Pokemon, actually. Skarm is a better physical wall, but Torkoal 1) beats Skarm and 2) can just destroy things at random with Fire-type attacks or Toxic.

Does Zangoose get Agility? I can imagine setting up and crushing. The big problem is that I can't imagine a team in this without Heracross, and Zangoose I think gets outsped and Brick Break'd by Hera. Also, Zangoose just can't beat Skarm.

[Turalisj]

It's okay, though, he gets access to Zangoose while others don't.

Zangoose was my favorite 'mon in Ruby. Just saying.

[OracleofWuffing]

No Agility in Gen 3 for Zangoose, but he does have a higher base speed than Heracross. He can carry Aerial Ace for Heracross, and Flamethrower/Fire Blast for some reason to use against Skarmory, but I'm too lazy to run the calcs on those to see if those are worthwhile (probably not for Skarmory due to off-stattiness).

That said, I was a Sapphire guy, so, yeah.

[Turalisj]

I had 3 Zangoose in my Ruby game; Zing, Zang, Zeng. >.>

[Talvereaux]

Does Zangoose get Agility? I can imagine setting up and crushing.

Nope. It only gets Sword Dance, which is still usable as it's speed is a little above average for Gen III--especially with a bunch of late evolvers out of the picture. (base 90)

If you hypothetically were to use such a set, paralysis support would be appreciated to cripple the metagame's faster Pokemon. You can run Quick Attack, too, for glass cannons, but you'd lose either perfect neutral coverage or a strong STAB move that way. Preferably the former, as STAB Return's pretty indispensable for Zangoose.

[FantasyFoxMan]

Hi, folks. So, I've been working on Pokes to use to create a team with Little Cup in mind on my Pearl cartridge. Why have I started working on the LC? I have no idea, I just wanted to. :V Just out of curiosity, does anyone else still use PBR or other things that only support Diamond and Pearl?

Also the Make a Wish GTS has V-Create Rayquaza as their Event Pokemon today, so grab it while you can! Unless you want to wait for it to cycle through again, in that case go right ahead.

[tonberrian]

So what's everybody's favorite (and least favorite) pokemon-catching mechanics? I really like the Safari Zone (especially HG/SS's implementation), but I despise swarms and runners.

[tgva8889]

Legendary fights are probably some of the most fun experiences in the game. The difficulty of fighting powerful foes is one thing, but having to reduce them to low hit points without defeating them and then having to catch them with a ball that has less than 10% catch rate? This is where the enjoyment of Pokemon lies for me. This is true challenge.

[LansXero]

Actually no, tournament rules specify Ruby only. Its a test tourney for an upcoming league so they want to keep it simple. How is THIS for simple... well, thats another matter altogether.

[tgva8889]

Oh. Well, Skarm + Heracross is obvious core. Torkoal seems viable also. Wobbuffet is a clear issue in this tournament, but the advantage to Skarm and Hera is that they can potentially answer it.

Besides that, not sure what else you should run. Starmie is pretty good and probably the best Special attacker. Milotic is decent. You really want something to block Special attacks, but I don't think that exists. Maybe it's time to run something ridiculous with Calm Mind setup?

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, in that case... Hey, going over the rules, it looks like there's no Evasion clause. Double Team on everything, pack Whirlwind or Roar somewhere.