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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.
    There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow, personally I am think it is the first one.
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.
    If CD was one of those books, you couldn't take Ur-Priest anyways. One of it's requirements is not having divine casting.
    Quote Originally Posted by SheepinDisguise
    There's no I in team. There is, however, an I in Wizard, Cleric, Druid, StP Erudite, Psionic Artificer, LE Candle of Invocation, Miracle, and Wish. There is no I in Trunamer or Monk though.
    True. However, there is also an I in Samurai.


  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow, personally I am think it is the first one.
    I go with the latter interpretation as far as RAW is concerned - the "primary source" for what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC is CWar/CArc, and neither are worded to imply they only hold for those books.

    Let's put it this way - CWar has rules on heavy falling objects. Do those rules apply only to heavy objects from the CWar book, or to any heavy falling object?

    That said, I'm of the opinion that strict-RAW is rarely the best way to play in practice, and that a good DM will make judgement calls. Some PrCs obviously don't make sense if you lose the requirements (RSoP who converts to Nerrul, for exaple). Some do make sense that way (Reaping Mauler under the effect of Enlarge Person). Really, this is part of what the DM's there for, and should be left to their discretion.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.
    IIRC the rule about losing class features is universal for all prestige classes. Only base classes that don't have "ex-X" rules can lose a required alignment with no consequences.
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by DonutBoy12321 View Post
    If CD was one of those books, you couldn't take Ur-Priest anyways. One of it's requirements is not having divine casting.
    Sounds to me like a clear cut case of Alter Reality. Which is what you get for trying to steal from the gods.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow
    Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:
    • You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
    • With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:
    • You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
    • With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.
    I can't seem to find it, but I was surethere was something in the Rules Compendium that clarified this.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:
    • You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
    • With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.
    Barring a reference in Rules Compendium, I believe Complete Warrior qualifies as "primary source" on what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC, as it was published before Complete Arcane.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by SirFredgar View Post
    I can't seem to find it, but I was surethere was something in the Rules Compendium that clarified this.
    I'm sure there's not, since that book doesn't have any rules about prestige classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Barring a reference in Rules Compendium, I believe Complete Warrior qualifies as "primary source" on what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC, as it was published before Complete Arcane.
    According to the official word on the matter, only the three core manuals are ever named as primary source books.
    Errata Rule: Primary Sources

    When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

    Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
    The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for prestige class rules. Since there's a prestige class in there (Dragon Disciple) which conflicts with both the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane rules, the DMG is correct and the other books aren't allowed sway. Now there are only two ways you can resolve this conflict:
    • Those rules are stricken from the game, per the Primary Sources Errata rule.
    • Those rules have only local (to that book) scope, where they don't cause a disagreement.

    There's also a replacement rule which would work exactly counter to your belief, but that only applies when there's something with the same name, and Complete Arcane's rule doesn't have a name. Apart from that, publication date doesn't matter a whit: it doesn't make any source more important than another.
    Last edited by Curmudgeon; 2011-12-27 at 09:29 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    I go with the latter interpretation as far as RAW is concerned - the "primary source" for what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC is CWar/CArc, and neither are worded to imply they only hold for those books.

    Let's put it this way - CWar has rules on heavy falling objects. Do those rules apply only to heavy objects from the CWar book, or to any heavy falling object?

    That said, I'm of the opinion that strict-RAW is rarely the best way to play in practice, and that a good DM will make judgement calls. Some PrCs obviously don't make sense if you lose the requirements (RSoP who converts to Nerrul, for exaple). Some do make sense that way (Reaping Mauler under the effect of Enlarge Person). Really, this is part of what the DM's there for, and should be left to their discretion.
    AFAIK the DMG is considered the primary source when dealing with Prg. Classes; but I see from where you are coming. And I completely agree with your other point, that some classes make sense to loose stuff if they can no longer qualify, primary Divine classes as they are granted those powers; but for others, mainly the martial classes, it just doesn't make sense from an IC perspective to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:
    • You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
    • With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.
    I have to admit that I haven't read those rules in detail and till now I didn't see that difference; but if I had to choose I would go with CWar ruling. Having said that what I would rule in those case would be:

    If you no longer qualify for a prestige class for whatever reason, you keep all special abilities derived from the class including BAB, save and skill progression; but you cannot longer take levels on that class until you qualify again.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Hidecarved Dragon, anyone? Has anyone found a way to finish it pre-epic yet, barring TO shenanigans?
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Anarchic initiate was designed to be a wilder PrC, but its prereqs are as follows:

    Alignment: Any Chaotic.
    Skills: Knowledge (Psionics) 8 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks.
    Special: Wild surge class feature or Overchannel feat.
    Now, look at the wilder's skill list:

    Class Skills
    The wilder’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis* (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration* (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (psionics)* (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Psicraft* (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
    Notice what it DOESN'T have on there.

    Yes, the custom-made 10-level wilder PrC is BETTER for a psion than a wilder, since the latter can't even enter it until 14th level and can't finish it out anywhere near pre-epic.
    Last edited by Rubik; 2011-12-27 at 09:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Hidecarved Dragon, anyone? Has anyone found a way to finish it pre-epic yet, barring TO shenanigans?
    Does Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold with chaos shuffle count as TO shenanigans?

    I think that doesn't count as IMO RAI never meant Hidecarved Dragon to be available for PC's; but if we count it, I definitely think it is one of the biggest contenders.
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow, personally I am think it is the first one.
    Or if it's an editing error because that was a 3E rule dropped in 3.5.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2011-12-27 at 09:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Or if it's an editing error because that was a 3E rule dropped in 3.5.
    If it's not listed in the DMG Errata, it's (officially, anyway) not an error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    According to the official word on the matter, only the three core manuals are ever named as primary source books.
    They're listed as "examples" of primary sources. But I see what you mean about the replacement rule. I prefer the CW rule on a metagame level, for reasons already stated, but I'd be prepared to accept CArc as the one with RAW priority. I just don't think the argument that they only apply within their respective books holds any water; nothing in the wording suggests that, and nobody I know of applies the other rules of the game like that.

    Again, there's the falling object damage table from CWar; normally DMG would be the primary source on environmental hazards like that, so is the CWar text null and void? Does it only apply to objects in that book?
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2011-12-27 at 09:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Tangentially, I think you can qualify for Fochulcan Lyrist with only paladin as your base class...

    Harmonious Knight 4/War Chanter 5/Hoardstealer 1/Loredelver 3/Fochulcan Lyrist 7 seems to work, although you need Illumian cheese. Not great on a power level, but it's an interesting exercise.
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    Yes, the custom-made 10-level wilder PrC is BETTER for a psion than a wilder, since the latter can't even enter it until 14th level and can't finish it out anywhere near pre-epic.
    Fiend-Blooded is similar - it's clearly intended as a Sorcerer prestige class, yet one of it's reqs is Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks, which isn't a Sorcerer skill. Sure, you can get around that with Knowledge Devotion, Planar Sorcerer sub levels and a few other ways, but it's an obvious oversight by the designer, since the sample characters don't even legally qualify.

    It also has two fairly suboptimal feats (Blood Calls to Blood, Eschew Materials) as reqs. Eschew Materials is only ever useful if you've lost your spell component pouches somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    I'm sure there's not, since that book doesn't have any rules about prestige classes.
    Yep. It was actually in the FAQ, and it cites CWar's ruling.

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    What happens when an assassin becomes non-evil?
    A character who no longer meets the requirements of his
    prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class,
    but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other
    special abilities granted by the class.” (CW 16) You retain Hit
    Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and
    base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.
    The rules don’t specifically list skill points (and class
    skills) as falling into either category; the Sage recommends that
    the character retain these functions even if he no longer meets
    the class requirements.
    So your repentant assassin would lose his sneak attack,
    death attack, poison use, save bonus against poison, uncanny
    dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight class
    features, as well as his assassin spellcasting and any weapon
    and armor proficiencies gained from the class. He’d keep the
    skill ranks he bought with his assassin levels, as well as the hit
    points, base attack, and base save bonuses gained from those
    class levels. He also couldn’t gain any more assassin levels
    until his alignment returned to evil (at which point he’d also
    regain the various features he lost when his alignment changed
    to non-evil).
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Hidecarved Dragon, anyone? Has anyone found a way to finish it pre-epic yet, barring TO shenanigans?
    I hope to have fallen just short of shenanigans in your eyes:

    Kobold Cleric1/Archivist6/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/SacredExorcist1/HideCarvedDragon10

    Domains: Planning, Plant

    ACF: Destroy Undead

    Feats
    Planning Domain: Extend Spell
    Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
    Flaw: Persistent Spell
    Flaw: Divine Metamagic
    1: Dragonwrought
    3: Photosynthetic Skin
    Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
    6: INArmor
    9: INArmor

    Relevant Equipment: Reliquary Holy Symbol, Gleaming Scales Grafts X5

    Prereq's:

    Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
    LG Alignment
    Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+2(Improved Natural Armor)+5(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
    Base Will Save +2+5+2+2+2=+13
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    I think Planar Sorcerer is a pretty flavorful entry into Fiend-blooded though and don't mind the oversight from that perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    They're listed as "examples" of primary sources. But I see what you mean about the replacement rule. I prefer the CW rule on a metagame level, for reasons already stated, but I'd be prepared to accept CArc as the one with RAW priority. I just don't think the argument that they only apply within their respective books holds any water; nothing in the wording suggests that, and nobody I know of applies the other rules of the game like that.

    Again, there's the falling object damage table from CWar; normally DMG would be the primary source on environmental hazards like that, so is the CWar text null and void? Does it only apply to objects in that book?
    Indeed; and according to PHB, there are only 11 base classes - are all the others in splats homebrew?

    There's a tendency around here, especially by certain posters, to devote themselves far too slavishly to Primary Source.

    EDIT: thanks Fredgar for the FAQ cite as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    They're listed as "examples" of primary sources. But I see what you mean about the replacement rule. I prefer the CW rule on a metagame level, for reasons already stated, but I'd be prepared to accept CArc as the one with RAW priority. I just don't think the argument that they only apply within their respective books holds any water; nothing in the wording suggests that, and nobody I know of applies the other rules of the game like that.
    Actually, that comes directly from the rules text in these books. From Complete Warrior Chapter 2: Prestige Classes:
    THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES
    These classes follow the format presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
    ...
    Most of these classes have combat-oriented requirements.
    ...
    Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

    If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.
    Since that Meeting Class Requirements is inside the section on THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES, that's the context for the rule: it applies to the martial prestige classes. (It might also apply to other prestige classes labeled as martial prestige classes outside of Complete Warrior; I just don't know of any.)

    The language surrounding the different rule in Complete Arcane is set up similarly:
    This chapter presents nineteen prestige classes appropriate for arcane spellcasters and characters of other classes who wish to acquire arcane abilities.
    ... so the scope of that rule is those nineteen prestige classes.

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Can we take the old debate to a new thread please?
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    Can we take the old debate to a new thread please?
    Well I am not invested enough to bother making a new thread but I will cease and desist in this one.

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Archmage. Not as bad as some others, but take a look.

    Skills: Know (Arcane) 15, Spellcraft 15. Both mechanically and flavor-fully, it makes sense that a class described as an ultimate caster needs to know things most couldn't normally learn. This is fine.
    Feats: Spell Focus in two schools. Why? Spell Focus doesn't fit with the master of all feel intended. It's supposed to represent real dedication to that school. Worse is Skill Focus: Spellcraft. At 15 ranks, you can already identify all spells you could even see non-epic on take 10, and only rarely fail before then. So what good does this do?
    Spells: Able to cast 7th level spells, knowledge of 5th level or higher from five schools. Painful, as it all but bars spontaneous casters, and requires that you be a real batman type either way.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by Winds View Post
    Archmage. Not as bad as some others, but take a look.

    Skills: Know (Arcane) 15, Spellcraft 15. Both mechanically and flavor-fully, it makes sense that a class described as an ultimate caster needs to know things most couldn't normally learn. This is fine.
    Feats: Spell Focus in two schools. Why? Spell Focus doesn't fit with the master of all feel intended. It's supposed to represent real dedication to that school. Worse is Skill Focus: Spellcraft. At 15 ranks, you can already identify all spells you could even see non-epic on take 10, and only rarely fail before then. So what good does this do?
    Spells: Able to cast 7th level spells, knowledge of 5th level or higher from five schools. Painful, as it all but bars spontaneous casters, and requires that you be a real batman type either way.
    AM isnt all that bad, a 1st lvl human wizard with 1 flaw meets the feat requirements right away. since its primarily meant for wizards, the skills are no biggie since youre gonna have a high int, and the spell level requirements are to make it accessed only past 10th level(without cheesy shenanigans), to show true arcane mastery.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    I hope to have fallen just short of shenanigans in your eyes:

    Kobold Cleric1/Archivist6/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/SacredExorcist1/HideCarvedDragon10

    Domains: Planning, Plant

    ACF: Destroy Undead

    Feats
    Planning Domain: Extend Spell
    Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
    Flaw: Persistent Spell
    Flaw: Divine Metamagic
    1: Dragonwrought
    3: Photosynthetic Skin
    Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
    6: INArmor
    9: INArmor

    Relevant Equipment: Reliquary Holy Symbol, Gleaming Scales Grafts X5

    Prereq's:

    Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
    LG Alignment
    Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+2(Improved Natural Armor)+5(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
    Base Will Save +2+5+2+2+2=+13
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah. Where's Photosynthetic Skin from?

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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    gkathellar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    I hope to have fallen just short of shenanigans in your eyes:

    Kobold Cleric1/Archivist6/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/SacredExorcist1/HideCarvedDragon10

    Domains: Planning, Plant

    ACF: Destroy Undead

    Feats
    Planning Domain: Extend Spell
    Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
    Flaw: Persistent Spell
    Flaw: Divine Metamagic
    1: Dragonwrought
    3: Photosynthetic Skin
    Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
    6: INArmor
    9: INArmor

    Relevant Equipment: Reliquary Holy Symbol, Gleaming Scales Grafts X5

    Prereq's:

    Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
    LG Alignment
    Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+2(Improved Natural Armor)+5(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
    Base Will Save +2+5+2+2+2=+13
    [chaoticevil]Wait, but, you didn't finish it. Hidecarved is a 12-level class.[/chaoticevil]
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-12-28 at 08:28 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    sonofzeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    [chaoticevil]Wait, but, you didn't finish it. Hidecarved is a 12-level class.[/chaoticevil]
    *shakes head*

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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Worst Prerequisites

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    [chaoticevil]Wait, but, you didn't finish it. Hidecarved is a 12-level class.[/chaoticevil]
    It's still the earliest entry I can recall seeing without worshiping an Elder Evil as a White Dragonspawn Kobold while doing the Dark Chaos Shuffle.
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