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Thread: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
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2011-12-27, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Time Stop.
Maw of Chaos(repeat).
Make sure you have CL boosting.
Kills almost anything.
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2011-12-27, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Wow, that's a lot of, uh, responses. I underestimated how active these forums were.
Well, forgive me if I can't reply to each individual post. I've read through all of them though. I'll just clarify my original question.
I was asking how a wizard could defeat an enemy who takes no damage from conventional (unoptimized?) wizard tactics. Hence its enormous saves, spell resistance, energy resistance, damage reduction, touch AC, etc.
A while back I saw the suggestion on Brilliant Gameologists to shadow conjuration (major conjuration (Black Lotus poison)). Even if successfully saved, it would do something like 300d6 STR, CON, or CHA damage. I forget which off the top of my head.
So, in other words, no matter how much HP the enemy has, the above trick is guaranteed to destroy pretty much any normal monster.
But what if the monster's STR, CON, or CHA was near-infinite? Things like this. Is there something a wizard20 can to do force an enemy to lose:
- No save.
- No SR.
- Regardless of HP.
- Regardless of attribute scores.
- Regardless of DR.
- Etc.
You get the picture.
Also, if a wizard20 was afraid of running out of spells during the day, how would he remedy this? (I know the fast time plane genesis trick, but are there other ways?)
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2011-12-27, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Foresight+celerity means the wizard acts first. Third eye clarity negates daze.
Celerity action: Time stop.
Time stop 1: Cast undermaster, pull weirdstone from handy haversack (or any other method to stop teleportation, etherealness, etc.).
Time stop 2: cast forcecage, use undermaster's souped up move earth to dump up to 750' cubic feet of earth onto the forcecage.
If wizard 20 was alone and afraid of running out of spells for the day he'd greater teleport somewhere safe and then stay in his rope trick for 8 hours, or else plane shift to his own demiplane and stay there for 8 hours. Normally, time isn't really a factor.
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2011-12-27, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
How do you kill Mary Sue?
This thing has plot armor. With your etc., you have essentially said we can't attack any stat of the creature. If I bring up Allips, you will add in NI Wisdom, etc.
Currently this thing still falls to Negative Levels.
Fell Draining Hail of Stone... Or even better, the UPS man can do it.
Fell Draining, Fell Frightening, Searing, Blistering Raging Flame (With Arcane Thesis) deals at least one point of fire damage even against immunity. This automatically (No Save or SR) inflicts the Shaken condition and 1 negative level.
Twin and Quicken (with perhaps some more mitigation) mean that you can do 4 per round. Now, we shapechange into a Chronotryn or Choker for an extra standard action, which brings it up to 6.
Swap familiar for Animal Companion, and take Wild Cohort, each of which take White Raven Tactics, which they will use to give you an extra turn this round. That brings it up to 18 negative levels. Leadership can be added to enhance this further.
You haven't yet given Mary Sue immunity to fear, so by now they have stacked to Panicked or Cowering.
If I were relying on this for a build, I would make sure to have Dread Witch levels, to get around fear immunity.Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2011-12-27, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
This is a good point. Why is the hypothetical adversary allowed NI values in all its attributes, but wizards are limited to level 20 values and can't use infinite loops?
If the point of the question is to establish that if you keep adding numbers on, non-casters can eventually survive combat with optimized casters, that's definitely true. But the game breaks down completely before you get to those levels of power.Originally Posted by KKL
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2011-12-27, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Undead, constructs, elementals, and anything incorporeal (unless you are too) would be immune to this.
As others have mentioned, the easiest way to beat this would be to ensure you go first, then hit it with a no-save, no-SR, you-lose spell. Solid Fog and Forcecage come to mind as two options. Initiate of Mystra + Anti-Magic Field + any method of incorporeality will make the wizard pretty much immune to anything, and probably moreso than the challange itself.SpoilerThank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
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2011-12-27, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Originally Posted by KKL
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2011-12-27, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Level 20 wizard wins like the basket weaver warforged: Go to/create a plain who you outlive the arbitarily high opponent and wait for him to die. Possibly send out a Astral Projection for lulz.
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2011-12-28, 05:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-28, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Shapechange to Dire Tortoise before battle.
Celerity
Time Stop
Force Cage
Dimensional Anchor
Move Earth (?)
And the freeze earth spell from Frostburn (?)
Throw in Cheater of Mystra and an Anti-Magic Zone if you're feeling cautious.
Move the frozen earth to a below-freezing area of your private plane, and check on it every few hundred years.
It's literally unsaveable, irresistable and un-counterable unless you can counter the Celerity or Time Stop.English is a second language etc etc.
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2011-12-28, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
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2011-12-28, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
I have heard of a case of Batman Wizard 20 backed up by a full party VS one Divine Rank 0 Gestalt Batman Sorceror//Cleric 83 and his two Pet Great Wyrm dragons.
That got real ugly real quick.
But i get the feeling that's not what you are looking for.
Then there's the incident with the spellcasting freak Tarrasque and it's "Owner".
That was not overly pleasant.
But that's probably not what you are looking for either.Last edited by Mixt; 2011-12-28 at 06:46 AM.
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2011-12-28, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
English is a second language etc etc.
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2011-12-28, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-28, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
The way to overwhelm near infinite defenses is with either larger near infinite attacks, or completely infinite attacks. This is how math works.
I can target basically any defense as a wizard...and yes, some of them, like a force cage and any long-lived damaging spell(say, a permanencied searing spell wall of fire), while technically targetting hp, will do so for forever. I just have to refresh the force cage every couple of days. So, unless you also have certain active defenses....you still lose.
But if you take NI amounts to sufficiently ridiculous levels, he never actually dies. I don't think that's really a win though. A life of imprisonment and constant burning? Quite literally hell on earth, inflict-able in half a time stop.
Other options exist like conjuring an Invisible massive cube of magically strengthened ice around you, resulting in ludicrously high break DCs. NI strength will eventually defeat that...but no monster in any published book has a hope in hell of overcoming it via strength no matter how long they try. The invisible part isn't actually important, save that it makes you a lovely display piece for the Wizard's tower, and interior decoration is important.
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2011-12-28, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
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2011-12-28, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Nah. There's always natural 1s on saving throws and the like. Pure spammage of SoDs is another method.
There are defenses against these, but likewise, there are defenses against vorpal weapons. Most of these defenses are spell based, though.
I mean, I'd happily run a level 20 wizard build against a level 500 Fighter or something.Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2011-12-28 at 09:28 AM.
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2011-12-28, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Not true, actually. Antimagic Field doesn't make any incorporeals cease to exist, only specifically incorporeal undead. Uncarnates and Unbodied can pair their (Ex) Incorporeality with Null Psi Field for lulz, anyone else needs Initiate of Mystra to do the same thing with magic.
Though vampires, being undead, would disappear even if they were vampire wizards casting Ghostform or something.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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2011-12-28, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-12-28 at 09:36 AM.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2011-12-28, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 20 Wizard Versus...
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void