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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, PEACH)

    So, I know there are several classes, both base and prestige, that end up turning you into a half dragon. This one will be a bit different, because being a dragon isn't just a class feature, it's the entire point of the class.
    Dragon Ascendant
    Hit Die: D12
    Skill Points: 6+Int per level (x4 at first level)
    Class skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device. Dragon ascendants also gain any additional class skills listed in the entry of their Dragon ancestor.

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Dragon Heritage, Dragon Legacy

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Ability Score Increase, Ascendant Sorcery

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    | Dragon Legacy

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Breath Weapon (2d6)

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Dragon Legacy

    6th|
    +6/1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Ability Score Increase

    7th|
    +7/2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Dragon Legacy

    8th|
    +8/3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Breath Weapon (4d6)

    9th|
    +9/4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Dragon Legacy

    10th|
    +10/5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Ability Score Increase

    11th|
    +11/6/1
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    | Dragon Legacy

    12th|
    +12/7/2
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Breath Weapon (6d6)

    13th|
    +13/8/3
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Dragon Legacy

    14th|
    +14/9/4
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Ability Score Increase

    15th|
    +15/10/5
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Dragon Legacy

    16th|
    +16/11/6/1
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Breath Weapon (8d6)

    17th|
    +17/12/7/2
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Dragon Legacy

    18th|
    +18/13/8/3
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Ability Score Increase

    19th|
    +19/14/9/4
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Dragon Legacy

    20th|
    +20/15/10/5
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |Breath Weapon (10d6), Dragon Ascension[/table]

    Weapon and armor proficiency: Dragon ascendants are proficient with simple weapons and light armor, but not with shields. However, armor interferes with a dragon ascendant's spellcasting, just like a sorcerer.

    Dragon Heritage: Most dragon ascendants are descended from true dragons, although there are some with a merely spiritual connection to their "ancestor". when taking the first level in this class, you must choose one type of true dragon. That dragon type is your dragon ancestor, and determines your class skills, the details of some class features, as well as your alignment restriction. a dragon ascendant must remain within one step of alignment with their dragon ancestor. a dragon ascendant who strays farther than this can no longer gain levels in this class, although they retain all class features gained so far. returning to an acceptable alignment will allow further progression through the class.

    Dragon Legacy: At every odd numbered level, you choose an attribute from the following list. You must meet all prerequisites of each attribute to choose it. Alternatively, you may choose any feat you meet the prerequisites for as a bonus feat. all Legacy traits are Extraordinary unless stated otherwise.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Dragon Defenses: Your base natural armor increases by +1, and you gain DR2/adamantine. Special: this trait can be taken multiple times. its effects stack.

    Dragon's Mobility: You grow wings in the style of your dragon ancestor. you gain a 90 ft. fly speed, with average maneuverability. Your base land speed also improves by 20 ft. Prerequisites: class level 5.

    Dragon's Mobility, Greater: Your fly speed increases to 150 ft, and you gain the overland flight ability of a dragon. your base speed increases an additional 10 ft. Prerequisites: Dragon's Mobility.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon: your hands morph into the talons of a dragon, granting you two claw attacks as primary natural weapons that deal 1d6 damage (for a medium creature) plus your strength modifier. these claws threaten a critical on a roll of 20, and have a critical multiplier of 2.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon, Improved: Your head morphs into a shape resembling that of your dragon ancestor, granting you a secondary bite attack dealing 1d8 + 1/2 your strength modifier. the bite threatens a critical on a roll of 20, and has a critical multiplier of 2. Prerequisites: Dragon's Natural Weapon.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon, Greater: The musculature and bone strength of your wings increases, allowing you to use them as secondary natural weapons. You also grow a tail in the style of your dragon ancestor. You gain 2 wing attacks, at 1d4 + 1/2 Str damage, and a tail attack at 1d6+1 1/2 Str damage, threatening a critical on 20, and with a 2x multiplier. Prerequisites: Dragon's Mobility, Improved Dragon's Natural Weapon, class level 11.

    Dragon Resistance: You gain resistance 10 to the energy type of your dragon ancestor. you also gain SR 5+ class level.

    Dragon Resistance, Greater: You become immune to the energy type of your dragon ancestor. Your SR improves to 10+class level.

    Dragon's Senses: The Irises of your eyes change color, matching your dragon ancestor. You gain Keen Senses, as a True Dragon.

    Dragon's Senses, Greater: Your entire eyes change to match the color of your dragon ancestor. You gain 60 ft. Blindsense. Prerequisites: Dragon's Senses, Class level 9.

    Frightful Power: When you hit an opponent with a natural weapon attack or your breath weapon, they must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 class level + Cha mod.) or be Frightened for 1 round per 2 class levels. this is a mind affecting fear effect. Prerequisites: Dragon's Natural Weapon or Growth.

    Growth: Your size increases by 1 step, following the standard rules for increasing size class. Prerequisites: Class level 7.

    Second Ancestor: You are one of the lucky few that are descended from multiple races of dragons. Pick one additional type of dragon ancestor. You can use the energy type of your second ancestor for your breath weapon instead of the energy type of your primary ancestor. you must choose which energy type to use before using your breath weapon, but may freely switch back and forth between uses. you can also combine energy types, so that 1/2 of the damage is of each energy type. Doing a combined breath attack costs 2 uses of your breath weapon ability.

    Sorcerous Focus: you gain a +2 to your ascendant sorcery caster level for all purposes except spells per day, spells known, and access to higher spell levels. Prerequisites: Class level 5. Can be taken one more time at class level 15.



    Ability Score Increase (Ex): At second level, and every four levels afterward, you gain a +2 increase to either strength, constitution, intelligence, or charisma. You may add all the bonuses to the same ability score, or split them up in any way you choose.

    Ascendant Sorcery: A dragon ascendant has some spellcasting ability, similar in nature to a sorcerer's. At every even numbered level, a dragon ascendant's spellcasting improves as if it had gained a level of sorcerer. In addition, Ascendant Sorcery stacks with actual sorcerer levels for the purpose of spellcasting (but not other class features, such as a familiar). Ascendant Sorcery caster level also qualifies as sorcerer levels for prestige classes.


    Breath Weapon (Su): A dragon ascendant gains their ancestor's breath weapon at level 4. The breath weapon starts at 2d6, and increases by 2d6 at every 4th level. It can be fired in a 60 ft. line or a 30 ft. cone, chosen by the dragon ascendant when used. The breath weapon can be used 1 time per day per die of damage dealt, plus one time per day per point of constitution bonus, if any. The breath weapon allows a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + con mod) for half damage.

    Dragon Ascension: At 20th level, a dragon ascendant has taken on so many traits of their dragon ancestor that they become a kind of dragon themselves. Their type changes to dragon, they gain the Augmented (original type) subtype, and they lose any other subtypes besides elemental, alignment and Native/Extraplanar. A 20th level dragon ascendant no longer ages naturally, although they can still be magically aged.
    Last edited by lunar2; 2012-01-17 at 05:35 PM. Reason: updating class
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    As written, I suspect you'd be better off taking the LA for half dragon and grabbing classes that further the concept(no real shortage of those). Half spellcasting might help, but honestly, it's not going to replicate a dragon until well into epic.

    Also, you might want to include specific Typing language.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    The biggest problem with mimicking a race with a class, especially one who's power raises so high it has no LA at higher levels, is how the features scale. You can't hold monsters up to the same standards as classes and the abilities dragons have are only so devastating and awesome because of their incredibly high statistics (and sometimes DM description).
    I've seen races turned to character classes before, but it usually only works well with concepts from outsiders.
    Granting 'dragon-ship' in this way leads to not having any particularly cool class features (beyond being a dragon I guess). It actually leads to a weaker character than you might think as many features, such as natural weapons, simply replicate weapon use.
    Now a class that grants unique abilities based on dragons might work. In essence I am say you don't have to follow how dragons progress word for word as it seems your doing.
    The d12, all good saves, and full BaB is insane; even without a lot of class features to back it up. It seems like it should be a capstone (like becoming a lich for necromancers).
    Some of this, among a few other things, is why my dragon tamer class fell apart. I couldn't balance the aspect of having a dragon there.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-12-28 at 08:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    a dragon RHD (D12 HD, full BAB, all good save, and 6+INT skill points) is a Tier 4 by itself. I always aim for tier 3, so having a dragon RHD chassis is perfectly acceptable.

    while the class does need a lot of work, it is already more than just a half dragon. half dragons age as the base creature, instead of becoming basically immortal. half dragons only get breath weapons once per day, instead of 8 plus con modifier times per day, as this class eventually does, and can't freely switch between lines and cones. Half dragons don't get the sensory abilities of true dragons.

    while the class isn't perfect, it does fit just fine in several roles (scout, party face, tank, crowd control, encyclopedia), and can reliably do maybe 2 at once.

    instead of dedicating a post to how bad an idea the class is, how about helping me make it better, while still sticking to the general idea of becoming something resembling a dragon over the course of twenty levels, using the half dragon template as a baseline. what the class needs isn't scrapping, it needs organizing, figuring out what features go where, and what needs to be tweaked a bit to better fit the class. it also needs a name, btw. that's something i'm terrible with.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    You should take a look at Dragonfire Adept, in Dragon Magic. It does pretty much everything you'd expect a half-dragon class to do except have the full dragon chassis, though a Con-based breath weapon gives you plenty of incentive to boost Constitution enough to make up for the d8 hit die, and poor BAB means little when you can use that breath weapon every round.

    Tack on your "Dragon Lifespan" and pick the right invocations, and it really does do everything this class can. To wit: Flight and blindsense can come as early as 6th level (8th for both), energy immunity at 16th, temporary HP (in case your d8 HD with high Con isn't enough) is available at 11th. There are enough other invocations to give more specific dragon-y abilities, as well.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    a dragon RHD (D12 HD, full BAB, all good save, and 6+INT skill points) is a Tier 4 by itself. I always aim for tier 3, so having a dragon RHD chassis is perfectly acceptable.
    Not without class features, it's not. With no other features, Dragon HD are high Tier 5 at best-- compare to the Complete Warrior Samurai, who doesn't have the good saving throws but at least has combat abilities besides his BAB. Skill points are basically meaningless unless you have Use Magic Device and Iaijutsu Focus to play with.

    I don't see anything too wrong with your class except the combination of half-dragon STR bonuses and full BAB. It's basically a Monk without any of the short-term dip potential.

    Compare it to the Pathfinder version of the Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. Aside from getting some of your class features early, you're basically trading 17 levels of Sorcerer casting for +4 Str, full BAB, and a good Reflex save.

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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    1) I'd move Natural Armor +2 to level 10. Then it's 1 point/5 levels

    2) Limit AL to within one step of the dragon's like a Cleric

    3) It's high-powered, but not quite game breaking based off this: Class Construction System (Yes I know it's from dandwiki) It comes in at 209/215 points allowed for a base class
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, though I guess that's how it come off (I was still peeved off at my project and it sort of carried over).
    I still think the statistics should be dropped slightly, introducing some of the bonuses slowly as you level up maybe (lower the BaB, one save, and the hit die until later levels that upgrade it). And I wouldn't even bother with the skill points, because I worry about the class being able to do everything too well.
    I would either bump the breath weapon up to 10 die or instead give it the standard recharge time.
    Beyond that I would cut the ability bonuses in half and scale energy resistance in intervals of 5. The jumps don't scale well with damage.
    To give an added oomph I would then grant it spellcasting as a sorcerer at 1/2 the rate, or maybe even just some bonus feats as I would worry about granting any spellcasting at all alongside a high BaB (classes like the duskblade are examples of where it does work, if only because of their limited spell list).
    Maybe even give it a fear aura, sort of like frightening presence without the HD cap.
    The +4 natural armor is decent, but if you want anyone with a 20 BaB to have a chance of missing I would up it to +6 or +8. Otherwise your better of just granting 4 DR/-.

    Hope I was more helpful this time.

    edit > You might even throw in some special abilities, sort of like the rogue does, maybe with options such as the ability to channel your breathe weapon through a melee strike.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-12-31 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elimu Marimech View Post
    Class Construction System (Yes I know it's from dandwiki)
    It's vastly inaccurate. Wizard casting is worth far more than 55 points, and two skills / level is worth much less than a d8 hit die. Heavy Armor is worth next to nothing with the low cost of Mithril, and yet it's valued higher in that system than most everything else. And full BAB nowhere near approaches the value of Bard casting (29 points as found below).

    As for the high-powered claim... compare this to similar classes. It's not much better than a Barbarian, and it's much less versatile than a Dragonfire Adept or Warlock.
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2011-12-31 at 04:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    To give an added oomph I would then grant it spellcasting as a sorcerer at 1/2 the rate, or maybe even just some bonus feats as I would worry about granting any spellcasting at all alongside a high BaB (classes like the duskblade are examples of where it does work, if only because of their limited spell list).
    I was going to suggest Bard casting, myself
    Last edited by Razanir; 2011-12-31 at 07:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    I prefer the 1/2 sorcerer casting, personally. that gives it a bit more dip potential for certain builds that involve sorcerer levels. taking 2 levels of this class would only cost the sorcerer a single caster level, but would boost the save, HP, and attack bonuses, as well as grant a bunch of skill points and class skills.

    when i have more time, I'll go over the suggestions so far in detail, and edit the class accordingly.

    btw, anyone have any name ideas?
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elimu Marimech View Post
    I was going to suggest Bard casting, myself
    I'd second this. Make it count as sorcerer casting for most purposes (ie same spell list, counts as sorcerer for feats/prestige classes, etc), but use the Bard Spells known/spells per day. That should make it mid-high tier 3, which is an okay place to be.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    ok, so I've rethought the class, and it's now looking very different. I'm keeping the dragon RHD chassis. that's absolutely not changing. class skills are still the same as a true dragon. but the features will be much different. also, I've got a name.

    Dragon Ascendant
    HD: D12
    BAB: As fighter
    Saves: All good
    Class Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device. Dragon ascendants also gain additional class skills depending on their dragon ancestor (see below)
    Skill points: 6+Intelligence modifier (x4 at first level).
    Alignment: any (see Dragon Ancestor)
    Class Features:

    Weapon and armor proficiency: Dragon ascendants are proficient with simple weapons and light armor, but not with shields. However, armor interferes with a dragon ascendant's spellcasting, just like a sorcerer.

    Dragon Ancestor: Most dragon ascendants are descended from true dragons, although there are some with a merely spiritual connection to their "ancestor". when taking the first level in this class, you must choose one type of true dragon. That dragon type is your dragon ancestor, and determines your class skills, the details of some class features, as well as your alignment restriction. a dragon ascendant must remain within one step of alignment with their dragon ancestor. a dragon ascendant who strays farther than this can no longer gain levels in this class, although they retain all class features gained so far. returning to an acceptable alignment will allow further progression through the class.

    Dragon Body: At first level, and every four levels after, you choose an attribute from the following list. you must meet all prerequisites of each attribute to choose it.

    Spoiler
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    Dragon's Natural Weapon: your hands morph into the talons of a dragon, granting you two claw attacks as primary natural weapons that deal 1d6 damage (for a medium creature) plus your strength modifier. these claws threaten a critical on a roll of 20, and have a critical multiplier of 2.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon, Improved: Your head morphs into a shape resembling that of your dragon ancestor, granting you a secondary bite attack dealing 1d8 + 1/2 your strength modifier. the bite threatens a critical on a roll of 20, and has a critical multiplier of 2. Prerequisites: Dragon's Natural Weapon.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon, Greater: The musculature and bone strength of your wings increases, allowing you to use them as secondary natural weapons. You gain 2 wing attacks, at 1d4 + 1/2 Str damage, threatening a critical on 20, and with a 2x multiplier. Prerequisites: Dragon's Mobility, Improved Dragon's Natural Weapon.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon, Superior: You grow a tail, which can be used as a secondary natural weapon, dealing 1d8 + 1 1/2 Str Mod, threatening a critcal on a 20, with a 2x multiplier. Prerequisites: Greater Dragon's Natural Weapon.

    Dragon's Senses: The Irises of your eyes change color, matching your dragon ancestor. You gain darkvision 60 ft., and low light vision.

    Dragon's Senses, Improved: The cornea (whites) of your eyes also change to match the color of your dragon ancestor. Your darkvision increases to 120 ft., and your low light vision extends to 4 times normal vision. Prerequisites: Dragon's Senses.

    Dragon's Senses, Greater: The pupils of your eyes change to match the color of your dragon ancestor. You gain 60 ft. Blindsense. Prerequisites: Improved Dragon's Senses.

    Dragon's Mobility: You grow wings in the style of your dragon ancestor. you gain a 40 Ft. fly speed, with poor maneuverability. Your base land speed also improves by 10 ft. Prerequisites: 1 other Dragon Attribute.

    Dragon's Mobility, Improved: Your fly speed improves to 90 ft, and your maneuverability improves to average. you gain an additional 10 ft. increase to your base land speed. Prerequisites: Dragon's Mobility.

    Dragon's Mobility, Greater: Your fly speed increases to 150 ft, and you gain the overland flight ability of a dragon. your base speed increases an additional 10 ft. Prerequisites: Improved Dragon's Mobility.


    Ability Score Increase: At second level, and every four levels afterward, you gain a +2 increase to either strength, constitution, intelligence, or charisma. You may add all the bonuses to the same ability score, or split them up in any way you choose.

    Ascendant Sorcery: A dragon ascendant has some spellcasting ability, similar in nature to a sorcerer's. At every even numbered level, a dragon ascendant's spellcasting improves as if it had gained a level of sorcerer. In addition, Ascendant Sorcery stacks with actual sorcerer levels for the purpose of spellcasting (but not other class features, such as a familiar). Ascendant Sorcery caster level also qualifies as sorcerer levels for prestige classes.

    Dragon Defenses: At 3rd level, and every 4 levels afterward, a dragon ascendant gains a measure of their ancestor's defenses. their body begins to grow small scales that increase their natural armor by 1, improving with each repetition of this feature. They also gain resistance 5 to the energy type of their ancestor's breath weapon, increasing at each repetition.

    Breath Weapon: A dragon ascendant gains their ancestor's breath weapon at level 4. The breath weapon starts at 2d6, and increases by 2d6 at every 4th level. It can be fired in a 60 ft. line or a 30 ft. cone, chosen by the dragon ascendant when used. The breath weapon can be used 1 time per day per die of damage dealt, plus one time per day per point of constitution bonus, if any. The breath weapon allows a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + con mod) for half damage.

    Dragon Ascension: At 20th level, a dragon ascendant has taken on so many traits of their dragon ancestor that they become a kind of dragon themselves. Their type changes to dragon, they gain the Augmented (original type) subtype, and they lose any other subtypes besides elemental, alignment and Native/Extraplanar. A 20th level dragon ascendant no longer ages naturally, although they can still be magically aged.

    so, what do you think? the class is certainly much simpler, and more customizable, but can't do multiple jobs at once like the earlier version could.

    Also, is Ascendant Sorcery too much? if so, it can be scrapped no problem, and would be the first thing to go if the class is too powerful. I'm aiming for tier 3 here, in case that helps. I'll add a table later.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Okay, here's my critique after looking at the new class.

    Simply put, it's just boring. It doesn't have much to do in combat other than breathe on people, or use its natural weapons if it takes those as an option, Given the gimped caster level, you won't be able to cast spells until far after the point they're relevant.

    I'd hesitate to give it casting at all, but that's just me.

    I guess the question is, what exactly are you trying to go for? Is there aome specific aspect you're looking to go after? It helps if you narrow down where your goal is, so that we can help you reach it.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    i thought i did explain what i was going for. the point is to be something resembling a dragon, with similar capabilities. i think the class does that fairly well. depending on which dragon body traits you take (all natural weapons and mobility), you would look almost exactly like a medium version of your dragon ancestor by level 17. as for boring in combat, it's certainly no more boring than a totemist (get lots of natural weapon attacks), or a warlock (blast a bunch of times in a row), or a barbarian (pick up a big stick, and start bashing heads in with your +10 to strength from the ability score increases), or any other class that's not a full caster. having a half casting progression isn't gimped when you take into account that full casting is over powered. yes, with this class you would probably stick to buff and utility spells, unless you were the party face and used your ability score increases to boost charisma, in which case you could force a bunch of saves. the class has more options than most, especially with ascendant sorcery thrown in, but even without it.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    i thought i did explain what i was going for. the point is to be something resembling a dragon, with similar capabilities. i think the class does that fairly well. depending on which dragon body traits you take (all natural weapons and mobility), you would look almost exactly like a medium version of your dragon ancestor by level 17. as for boring in combat, it's certainly no more boring than a totemist (get lots of natural weapon attacks), or a warlock (blast a bunch of times in a row), or a barbarian (pick up a big stick, and start bashing heads in with your +10 to strength from the ability score increases), or any other class that's not a full caster. having a half casting progression isn't gimped when you take into account that full casting is over powered. yes, with this class you would probably stick to buff and utility spells, unless you were the party face and used your ability score increases to boost charisma, in which case you could force a bunch of saves. the class has more options than most, especially with ascendant sorcery thrown in, but even without it.
    It resembles a dragon, yes, but level-appropriate dragons have far more HP, better stats, and better casting than your class has for their CR.

    The totemist can do natural attacks, spit acid, deal bleed damage, see in 360 degrees, etc., and all his abilities come with awesome names like "Planar Ward" and "Bloodtalons". It's pretty straightforward, but it's more interesting than this guy.

    The warlock, if you give it invocations, can turn invisible, or toss out grease, create darkness, turn his weapon into a stabbing glaive of doom, etc. The shtick is basically about spamming abilities, but it's still more interesting than this class.

    And the barbarian is boring, yes. This class and the barbarian are on the same page--which isn't complimenting your class.

    Now believe it or not, those classes are all below Tier 3, which is where flexibility begins to get legitimately emphasized. So your class is not only less interesting than 2/3 of the classes you listed, its also less interesting than the par for D&D games in general.

    So "be a dragon" is a noble goal, sure. But that's not what makes a good class. Most players would probably rather play a Dragon Adept and pretend that they are playing a half-dragon instead of going for this class. And the spell progression is so gimped that even though "casting is over powered", the spells aren't useful (bard casting is 2/3 casting, and it's only considered decent. Half-casting is weaaaaaaaak). You need more here.

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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Really? Barbarians are boring? {{scrubbed}} About the only class that can't be used in interesting ways is warrior. even commoners get early PRC entrance.

    yes, a CR matched dragon has better stats than this guy, but an ECL matched dragon would actually be weaker.

    example: juvenile green dragon (ECL 20)

    HP: 14D12+42 (133)
    Size: Large
    Space/Reach: 10/5 (10 with bite)
    Speed: 40ft, Fly 150 ft (poor), swim 40 ft.
    Initiative: +0
    AC: 22 Flat footed: 22 Touch: 9
    BAB/Grapple: 14/22
    Attack: Bite +17 2D6+4 (20, x2)
    Full Attack: Bite +17 2D6+4 (20, x2), 2 Claws +12 1D8+2 (20, x2), 2 Wings +12 1D6 +2, Tail +12 1D8+6 (20, x2)
    Special Attacks: Breath Weapon (40 ft. cone 8D6, DC 20), spells (as 1st level sorcerer)
    Special Qualities: Water Breathing, acid immunity, Blindsense 60 ft., Keen Senses, dragon traits
    Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
    Skill points: 136, max rank 17
    feats: 5

    Human Green Dragon Ascendant 20
    HP: 20D12+40 (175)
    Size: Medium
    Space/Reach: 5/5
    Speed: 40, fly 40 (poor)
    Initiative: +2
    AC: 17 Flat Footed: 15 Touch: 12
    BAB/Grapple: 20/28
    Full Attack: 2 Claws +28 1D6+8 (20, x2), Bite +23 1d8+4 (20, x2), 2 Wings +23 1d4+4 (20, x2), Tail +23 1D6+12 (20, x2)
    Special Attacks: Breath Weapon (30ft. cone or 60 ft line, 10d6 acid, DC 22 ), Spells (CL 10 sorcerer)
    Special Qualities: Dragon Traits, Resist Acid 25
    Abilities: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15
    Skills: 138, max ranks 23
    Feats: 8

    I used the standard array for the human DA ability scores, and i copied the dragon straight out of the SRD. But even if the dragon had PC ability scores, and they both had gear, the dragon would still suck compared to the DA. now, granted, true dragons make sucky PCs because of the wacky LA, but i think that proves that this class can hold its own.

    as you can see above, even a thrown together version could be a decent buff caster and melee combatant, provided the right skills, feats, and spells are chosen. or are you saying there aren't any good buffs on the sorcerer spell list that are level 5 or lower? of course, one built as a party face could force save DCs that a sorcerer can't reach.

    start Cha at 15, add 5 from levels, and the sorcerer has a 20 Cha. that's a DC 24 on 9th level spells.

    start at Cha 15, add 5 from levels and 10 from class features, and the DA has a 30 Cha. that's a DC 25 on 5th level spells.

    if you think the class is boring, that's fine, i guess, but that's pure opinion. it definitely has more options than most classes that i know of, and stacks up very well against the race it's meant to emulate.

    {{scrubbed}}
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2012-01-13 at 10:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post

    now, if anyone has anything they see wrong with the class (other than an "it's bo-oring" whine), or has any suggestions to improve it, please contribute. but i'm tired of "go buy a book you don't have so you can play a class you don't want to play because i think basing classes on races sux and anything that's not a batman wizard is boring" rants.
    Give it a Bard's Spells per day/Known and such, but have it draw from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. The Spellcasting is still behind enough the Tier 1s so that it won't be super broken, but it won't have a gimped caster level, and you'll be able to get enough access to spells to be consistent with the fluff and still have it be fun.

    Personally, I'd give everything under "Dragon Body" as Natural features of the class.

    Lastly, I'd give it a scaling Damage Reduction, and a frightful presence-esque ability. Then it'll feel like a medium version of a Dragon, which seems to be what you're going for.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    Really? Barbarians are boring? I guess you're one of those guys that will only play something if it gets 9 levels of spells or differently named equivalent. About the only class that can't be used in interesting ways is warrior. even commoners get early PRC entrance.

    if you think the class is boring, that's fine, i guess, but that's pure opinion. it definitely has more options than most classes that i know of, and stacks up very well against the race it's meant to emulate.

    now, if anyone has anything they see wrong with the class (other than an "it's bo-oring" whine), or has any suggestions to improve it, please contribute. but i'm tired of "go buy a book you don't have so you can play a class you don't want to play because i think basing classes on races sux and anything that's not a batman wizard is boring" rants.
    Alright. As a heads up, I prefer classes that aren't the Batman Wizard, and much if not most of my homebrew has no spellcasting or any such equivalent as a core part of its design. Nor is this a rant: I've been doing homebrew and critiquing homebrew for years now, and these are some design thoughts based on observation of how my own creations and the creations of others are received both online and at the game-table itself. Moving on...

    This class design falls flat because, while it has options, they're entirely passive options. Everything it gives is just a passive buff, meaning that *playing* the class (not the class itself, but the class in play) is relatively uninteresting compared to most other classes, which tend to give a variety of useful abilities that require some player engagement to utilize. The entirely of the player "during play" choice here comes down to "Breath Weapon or Base Attack." The casting definitely helps, but I'm not sure it's enough to sway me, as it's rather unimpressive casting, and usually won't contribute much to a CR appropriate encounter. Some players like this sort of class, but, while it technically *works,* I can't call an option-light class particularly well-designed.

    Also, your comparison uses a CR 8 creature (the juvenile Green Dragon) and compares it to a 20th level PC...and the PC isn't winning by that much. Using dragon LA to prove a point isn't the best idea, as Dragons have so many strange abilities that their LA is far above where it should be. In general, a PC is CR (the PC's level), so comparing an 8th-12th level PC to the Green Dragon may be more appropriate, although dragons are often a little under-CRed. The system really doesn't work well for them.

    Basically, I'd see this making an effective Bloodline, if you toned it down to match normal bloodline traits. You could also just make a 3-level half-dragon racial class, but I think you need more than "you're basically a dragon" to justify a full 20 level class. It leaves it feeling a bit empty of both abilities and flavor compared to most of the other options on the table, and makes the class itself to passive during actual gameplay. Not to pull the Wizard argument, but the reason Tome of Battle, psionics, wizards, artificers, Factotums, and even Rogues, Binders, Warlocks, Bards, Knights, Duskblades, Totemists, and so forth are considered "fun" classes is that there's a lot of play between your options and the mechanical, in-game implementation of them. There's freedom of choice both during character creation and during game-play. The Half Dragon class, as written, offers the former...but not the latter. If you can change that up and offer some variable in-game options, you'll have a much more interesting (and more fun) class.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Ok, first off, i want to apologize for my behavior earlier. I tend to get defensive when criticized, and I'm working on that.

    now, on to some specific points.

    1. comparison to a dragon.

    I know that dragons are under CR-ed and over LA-ed. I did mention the weird LA of dragons in my last post. however, in my experience, class levels tend to be over CR-ed, depending on the class. I typically advance CR for class levels at 4 levels = 3 CR, so a level twenty character is actually only a CR 15. the example i posted above was also just thrown together at a moment's notice, so it's drastically weaker than a properly built version, making it maybe a CR 13. still not a perfect comparison, i know, and obviously my methods aren't standard, but they work for me.

    2. lack of options.

    so, the specific suggestions i got were frightful presence and damage reduction, as well as putting everything in dragon body as part of the class itself. while I am open to combining some dragon body options, and adding others in, I don't think I want to put all that stuff in at once. it was the sheer variety of abilities that dragons get that warrant them such a high LA to begin with, and i like the idea of having to choose or two aspects of a dragon to focus on.

    3. spellcasting.

    since the spell casting is only a secondary ability, i wanted to avoid a full CL advancement. imo, casting should support whatever role is chosen, not be a viable role in and of itself. between feats/items to boost caster level, and Cha boosts to increase save DCs and spell slots, this guy can already nearly hang with an unaugmented sorcerer as an offensive caster, but with bard casting he would surpass that same sorcerer easily, which i don't want.

    so, what I'm thinking of doing is making dragon defenses a dragon body option that can be taken multiple times, and increasing dragon body to every other level. I would also add in other dragon body options, to give some increased variety, and combine some options together to shorten the option lines. if i do this, though, I would need to add in level prerequisites to some options, to prevent things like having 6 natural attacks at level 7. also, I'm going to change the name of the class feature to dragon legacy, since there will be options that aren't purely physical. "Bonus Feat" will be a Dragon Legacy option, as well, in case there still aren't any desirable options at a given level for certain builds.

    specific changes I'm thinking of:

    combine superior natural weapon into greater natural weapon, since wing attacks suck anyway. the new option would be greater dragon's natural weapon, and would grant both wing attacks and the tail attack, but wouldn't be available before class level 11, and would still require the same 3 options as before.

    combine mobility and improved mobility, giving a fly speed of 90 with average maneuverability, and 20 ft increase to base land speed. change the prerequisite to class level 5.

    add Dragon Defenses as an option, giving a +1 increase to base natural armor, and DR 2/Adamantine. I'd go with adamantine over magic because most things have magic, and dragon scales are supposed to be as tough as steel. Dragon defenses could be taken multiple times, and the effects would stack.

    add Dragon Resistance as an option, granting energy resistance 5 to the breath weapon type of the ancestor dragon, and SR 1+ class level. this option could also be taken multiple times and the effects would stack. so if for some reason you took it all 10 times, you would have energy resistance 50 and SR 10 + class level.

    add Frightful Power as an option, causing anyone hit by the DA's breath weapon or natural weapon attack to make a will save or be frightened for 1 round per 2 class levels. save DC would be 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha Mod. Don't know what level requirement would be appropriate, but would require at least 1 natural weapon option.

    combine Dragon senses and improved Dragon Senses into Keen Senses, as the true dragon feature. this would now be the prerequisite for Blindsense, which would gain a Class level 9 prerequisite to compensate.

    Add a Growth option. this would increase your size class by 1 (medium to large, in most cases). you would gain the standard modifiers for advancing a size class. Possible prerequisite for Frightful Power, and would likely have a Class Level 7 Prerequisite. Can't be taken more than once.

    feedback on these ideas would be appreciated, as would any new ideas. I'll be back on monday if not sooner, and will revise the class then. I want to point out that I am listening to the feedback given, even if i don't agree with all of it, and I'm trying to make this the best class possible within the framework built so far.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    didn't read the rest but...

    I know that dragons are under CR-ed and over LA-ed. I did mention the weird LA of dragons in my last post. however, in my experience, class levels tend to be over CR-ed, depending on the class. I typically advance CR for class levels at 4 levels = 3 CR, so a level twenty character is actually only a CR 15. the example i posted above was also just thrown together at a moment's notice, so it's drastically weaker than a properly built version, making it maybe a CR 13. still not a perfect comparison, i know, and obviously my methods aren't standard, but they work for me.
    If this were so, then a mirror party of level 20 characters would be a CR19 encounter. A mirror party would literally cause a TPK 50% of the time if played to equal ability of the players, yet the CR system would imply that this should be an easy encounter players could stop over.

    So your entire point here is flawed.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    add Dragon Resistance as an option, granting energy resistance 5 to the breath weapon type of the ancestor dragon, and SR 1+ class level. this option could also be taken multiple times and the effects would stack. so if for some reason you took it all 10 times, you would have energy resistance 50 and SR 10 + class level.
    SR less then 10+class level wouldn't be worth using. The option might never be taken because of that reason.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2012-01-13 at 03:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    didn't read the rest but...



    If this were so, then a mirror party of level 20 characters would be a CR19 encounter. A mirror party would literally cause a TPK 50% of the time if played to equal ability of the players, yet the CR system would imply that this should be an easy encounter players could stop over.

    So your entire point here is flawed.
    actually, no. a mirror party would not be a CR 19. PCs have better gear than equivalent level NPCs, to the extent that by level twenty, they are over 4x as rich. that much gear makes a big difference in the fight, at least 2 CRs worth. so a mirror party would be a CR 21/22. also, some classes are as good as their level would suggest, such as full spellcasters, and similar system magic users. hardest fight my players ever faced was against an equal level shadowcaster that knew they were coming, and prepared accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft Serve View Post
    SR less then 10+class level wouldn't be worth using. The option might never be taken because of that reason.
    that was why i paired it with the energy resistance. but even when i was doing it, i was wondering whether or not to do SR 2 per repetition+ class level instead, but i figured the energy resistance would boost it enough. and to be fair, unless you fight only equal level or better full casters, any SR at all will be occasionally useful. but i may break resistance into a two option line. the first, available at level 9 maybe, would give energy resistance 10 and SR 5+ level, and the second, available at maybe 15, would give energy immunity and SR 10+ level. that's a lot more powerful than it currently is, but I'm now thinking i made it way too weak to begin with.

    So, which version would be better? incremental improvement (with the 2 SR) with eventually much higher SR if focused on, or 2 step improvement to get decent spell resistance and total immunity to one energy type?
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Two step improvement to get decent spell resistance and immunity to an energy type.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    ok, that's settled, then. I only have a few minutes right now, so i was just checking in. I'll be back tomorrow to organize and put up a table. any suggestions for more options, or better ways to improve some of the existing options? like i said, i don't mind combining some, if needed.
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    Hmm... Even though this has some good customization, this could still use some unique options. I'm thinking stuff dragons can't do or that just fits the theme. A couple of ideas:
    Acquire the ability to use multiple types of breathe weapons.
    And why not allow dragons other than true (some of the planar are rather cool)? If you do you might also want to put up rules some of the breathe weapons that don't deal with energy.
    A choice of some bonus (monstrous) feats or the ability to shapeshift into a dragon a few times per day might be nice.
    How about instead of a bonus to AC, grant DR/-. Its much more useful.
    If you decide to scrap the spellcasting (which in retrospect might not have been a good suggestion on my part), why not grant a limited pool of spell-like abilities based on the type of dragon.

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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, WIP)

    @ other dragon types. with a little work, this class should work with any dragon that has a damage dealing breath weapon.

    as for DR/-, i don't like handing that out when i can avoid it. DR/adamantine is better imo, because 1) not many encounters will bypass it normally, and 2) when the DM needs to bypass it, he has more variety than lantern archon or spellcaster, since any intelligent creature could be carrying an adamantine weapon. it's the same reason armor bonuses to AC are cheaper and more readily available than deflection bonuses to AC.

    If you want to trade in spellcasting for the unique features of each dragon type, such as spell like abilities, i guess that's doable. not something i would want to deal with, though.

    also, new legacy traits.

    Sorcerous Focus: you gain a +2 to your ascendant sorcery caster level for all purposes except spells per day, spells known, and access to higher spell levels. Prerequisites: Class level 5. Can be taken one more time at class level 15.
    that ought to boost the casting some, for those that want to go that route.

    Second Ancestor: You are one of the lucky few that are descended from multiple races of dragons. Pick one additional type of dragon ancestor. You can use the energy type of your second ancestor for your breath weapon instead of the energy type of your primary ancestor. you must choose which energy type to use before using your breath weapon, but may freely switch back and forth between uses. you can also combine energy types, so that 1/2 of the damage is of each energy type. Doing a combined breath attack costs 2 uses of your breath weapon ability.


    now to organize all this junk.

    Dragon Ascendant
    Hit Die: D12
    Skill Points: 6+Int per level (x4 at first level)
    Class skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device. Dragon ascendants also gain any additional class skills listed in the entry of their Dragon ancestor.

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Dragon Heritage, Dragon Legacy

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Ability Score Increase, Ascendant Sorcery

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    | Dragon Legacy

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Breath Weapon (2d6)

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Dragon Legacy

    6th|
    +6/1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Ability Score Increase

    7th|
    +7/2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Dragon Legacy

    8th|
    +8/3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Breath Weapon (4d6)

    9th|
    +9/4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Dragon Legacy

    10th|
    +10/5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Ability Score Increase

    11th|
    +11/6/1
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    | Dragon Legacy

    12th|
    +12/7/2
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Breath Weapon (6d6)

    13th|
    +13/8/3
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Dragon Legacy

    14th|
    +14/9/4
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Ability Score Increase

    15th|
    +15/10/5
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Dragon Legacy

    16th|
    +16/11/6/1
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Breath Weapon (8d6)

    17th|
    +17/12/7/2
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Dragon Legacy

    18th|
    +18/13/8/3
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Ability Score Increase

    19th|
    +19/14/9/4
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Dragon Legacy

    20th|
    +20/15/10/5
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |Breath Weapon (10d6), Dragon Ascension[/table]

    Weapon and armor proficiency: Dragon ascendants are proficient with simple weapons and light armor, but not with shields. However, armor interferes with a dragon ascendant's spellcasting, just like a sorcerer.

    Dragon Heritage: Most dragon ascendants are descended from true dragons, although there are some with a merely spiritual connection to their "ancestor". when taking the first level in this class, you must choose one type of true dragon. That dragon type is your dragon ancestor, and determines your class skills, the details of some class features, as well as your alignment restriction. a dragon ascendant must remain within one step of alignment with their dragon ancestor. a dragon ascendant who strays farther than this can no longer gain levels in this class, although they retain all class features gained so far. returning to an acceptable alignment will allow further progression through the class.

    Dragon Legacy: At every odd numbered level, you choose an attribute from the following list. You must meet all prerequisites of each attribute to choose it. Alternatively, you may choose any feat you meet the prerequisites for as a bonus feat. all Legacy traits are Extraordinary unless stated otherwise.

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    Dragon Defenses: Your base natural armor increases by +1, and you gain DR2/adamantine. Special: this trait can be taken multiple times. its effects stack.

    Dragon's Mobility: You grow wings in the style of your dragon ancestor. you gain a 90 ft. fly speed, with average maneuverability. Your base land speed also improves by 20 ft. Prerequisites: class level 5.

    Dragon's Mobility, Greater: Your fly speed increases to 150 ft, and you gain the overland flight ability of a dragon. your base speed increases an additional 10 ft. Prerequisites: Dragon's Mobility.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon: your hands morph into the talons of a dragon, granting you two claw attacks as primary natural weapons that deal 1d6 damage (for a medium creature) plus your strength modifier. these claws threaten a critical on a roll of 20, and have a critical multiplier of 2.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon, Improved: Your head morphs into a shape resembling that of your dragon ancestor, granting you a secondary bite attack dealing 1d8 + 1/2 your strength modifier. the bite threatens a critical on a roll of 20, and has a critical multiplier of 2. Prerequisites: Dragon's Natural Weapon.

    Dragon's Natural Weapon, Greater: The musculature and bone strength of your wings increases, allowing you to use them as secondary natural weapons. You also grow a tail in the style of your dragon ancestor. You gain 2 wing attacks, at 1d4 + 1/2 Str damage, and a tail attack at 1d6+1 1/2 Str damage, threatening a critical on 20, and with a 2x multiplier. Prerequisites: Dragon's Mobility, Improved Dragon's Natural Weapon, class level 11.

    Dragon Resistance: You gain resistance 10 to the energy type of your dragon ancestor. you also gain SR 5+ class level.

    Dragon Resistance, Greater: You become immune to the energy type of your dragon ancestor. Your SR improves to 10+class level.

    Dragon's Senses: The Irises of your eyes change color, matching your dragon ancestor. You gain Keen Senses, as a True Dragon.

    Dragon's Senses, Greater: Your entire eyes change to match the color of your dragon ancestor. You gain 60 ft. Blindsense. Prerequisites: Dragon's Senses, Class level 9.

    Frightful Power: When you hit an opponent with a natural weapon attack or your breath weapon, they must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 class level + Cha mod.) or be Frightened for 1 round per 2 class levels. this is a mind affecting fear effect. Prerequisites: Dragon's Natural Weapon or Growth.

    Growth: Your size increases by 1 step, following the standard rules for increasing size class. Prerequisites: Class level 7.

    Second Ancestor: You are one of the lucky few that are descended from multiple races of dragons. Pick one additional type of dragon ancestor. You can use the energy type of your second ancestor for your breath weapon instead of the energy type of your primary ancestor. you must choose which energy type to use before using your breath weapon, but may freely switch back and forth between uses. you can also combine energy types, so that 1/2 of the damage is of each energy type. Doing a combined breath attack costs 2 uses of your breath weapon ability.

    Sorcerous Focus: you gain a +2 to your ascendant sorcery caster level for all purposes except spells per day, spells known, and access to higher spell levels. Prerequisites: Class level 5. Can be taken one more time at class level 15.



    Ability Score Increase (Ex): At second level, and every four levels afterward, you gain a +2 increase to either strength, constitution, intelligence, or charisma. You may add all the bonuses to the same ability score, or split them up in any way you choose.

    Ascendant Sorcery: A dragon ascendant has some spellcasting ability, similar in nature to a sorcerer's. At every even numbered level, a dragon ascendant's spellcasting improves as if it had gained a level of sorcerer. In addition, Ascendant Sorcery stacks with actual sorcerer levels for the purpose of spellcasting (but not other class features, such as a familiar). Ascendant Sorcery caster level also qualifies as sorcerer levels for prestige classes.


    Breath Weapon (Su): A dragon ascendant gains their ancestor's breath weapon at level 4. The breath weapon starts at 2d6, and increases by 2d6 at every 4th level. It can be fired in a 60 ft. line or a 30 ft. cone, chosen by the dragon ascendant when used. The breath weapon can be used 1 time per day per die of damage dealt, plus one time per day per point of constitution bonus, if any. The breath weapon allows a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + con mod) for half damage.

    Dragon Ascension: At 20th level, a dragon ascendant has taken on so many traits of their dragon ancestor that they become a kind of dragon themselves. Their type changes to dragon, they gain the Augmented (original type) subtype, and they lose any other subtypes besides elemental, alignment and Native/Extraplanar. A 20th level dragon ascendant no longer ages naturally, although they can still be magically aged.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

    The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.

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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Razanir's Avatar

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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, PEACH)

    It's looking a lot better. I have a suggestion for casting, however. The class, while strong, is lacking in a lot of distinct abilities like the Scout from Complete Adventurer. I'd suggest changing it to Bard casting at every level, but drawing from the Bard AND Wizard lists. To me, at least, casting at every other level feels too much like "+1 level of spellcasting" in PrCs- something that IS a flavorful ability, but not the kind of thing you might expect in a base class

    EDIT: And just as a side note, I'd also recommend updating the original post. It's easier for people who just skim around the forums looking for neat homebrew
    Last edited by Razanir; 2012-01-16 at 04:51 PM.
    Avatar from anythingcomic.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    Everyone knows frying pans are actually weapons that people repurpose for cooking
    I am an 11/11/12/15/12/14 LG Wiz 1/Clr 1

    I have invented a new pronoun. is to be referred to as V/vim/vis/vis/vimself instead of he/him/his/his/himself or she/her/her/hers/herself

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, PEACH)

    I'd agree with Elimu, the bard model works well for reduced spellcasting in a base class. I'd also agree with the wizard+bard spell lists. Looking better now, further critique will follow...
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

    My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
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    Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Half Dragon as a base class (3.5, PEACH)

    This might be utterly idiotic, but: if you like the idea of it being able to wreck stuff like an actual dragon would, why not have it count as if it was a size category larger when beneficial to you, without actually BEING larger?
    say, at 6th level increase in size category once, at 12th again, and at 18th again. That way your natural weapons begin to do serious damage, you can grapple and pin etc like a dragon would, and with your hit dice you'd have a legitimate close combat threat?
    maybe have more options (or another tier) of dragon body?
    in legends dragon blood tends to make the skin impermeable, so you could represent that with a SR, DR, or even fast healing series?
    this is all just thoughts, but the size increase especially sounds like it might be pretty cool and unique?
    hope some of that ends up being handy

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