Let's make a setting!

[Lord Tyger]

The bhukas detailed in the Sandstorm excerpt here seem like they could make a nice home in Savos. We're lacking a true "antagonist" race on Savos; could they fit the bill?

Do we need an "antagonist race?" Why not just have antagonist groups arising from the various extant races, instead of conveniently color coding everything?

[Sergeantbrother]

No, just like a world with no dragons that has half-dragons has no dragons.

Though the world has dragons.

Half elves in this case seems to be a work around the nonhuman rule, especially since the entire concept of half elves seems to be contrary to there being races of them. When they are a race of their own, they aren't half anythings anymore.

Not that I object to humans, but if we have no humans and are going for exoticism, why not adhere to it instead of having humans and calling them half elves?

That's the same issue I see with it. As we have it now, it seems like they might as well just be humans. If we're going to make a clean break, I feel we should go cold turkey.

Those are my thoughts as well.

[Eldest]

I actually like the idea of the Thaithal being decended from half-elfs. No reason why they shouldn't have adapted to fit the cold, though. And I think they might deserve a + to Charisma, since they are meant to be sorcerer-nobles.
This is sounding more and more like if I went though with my idea, it would be homebrew.

[Algerin]

The bhukas detailed in the Sandstorm excerpt here seem like they could make a nice home in Savos. We're lacking a true "antagonist" race on Savos; could they fit the bill?

If anything the Gnolls fit the more traditional "Antagonistic" race, but I'm a firm believe that there is no such thing as "Always Chaotic Evil."
I imagine that there would be antagonists of all races, or a particularly hostile tribe or such.

Personally, I see no problems with using Elves and Dwarves provided they aren't completely stereotypical. I also see no problems using other races instead.


Also, just a thought...
Because Elves (if we still decide to use them) are so similar to humans, perhaps they see themselves as the rightful heirs to human civilisation?
Maybe there are even some groups that try to emulate humans as much as they can?

Anglo-Saxon makes me happy, so I'm fine with calling them þyrs. Though I suppose we can make it thurse/thyrse if the thorn is too much.



Well, not every setting needs elves and dwarves. That would just be dull.

Personally, I feel our elves and Dwarves will be different enough to keep them. While statistically they'd be vanilla, culturally the Elves resemble Celts more then the "Hippy" stereotype. The Dwarves also seem to me more like Renaissance-era Italians(something I plan to emphasize more as I write up more of the setting). Also, I believe that having something be too Alien would be very difficult to show and role-play. Elves and Dwarves are familiar enough to not need any long explanation for them while at the same time showing their culture during game play that sets them apart from "traditional" Elves and Dwarves. The Dwarves in particular I have some great ideas for.

In a way, isn't having entire groups of half elves just a work around the prohibition on humans?

It is, and I was thinking that maybe "Half-Elf" might not always mean "50% elf blood, 50% human blood" and that it is a broad term for any elf with human blood, whether it be 50% or 1%.

As for needing human-like races to fit the gap as a base-line, I feel we have plenty of races that are "Human-Like" that could fill the Human-shaped hole really well anyways.

Also, I imagine that Elves wanting to emulate humans will find the Skin Grafters quite handy.

[Elfin]

As for antagonists, it seems like it would help to have an immediate threat, a faction that truly wants to topple the few threads of civilization that remain. None of the current threats are particularly present: the sectoids are contained to the waste (which we should name), the undead of Shax-Li are not an immediate concern, and the kobolds are not malignant. Something could be done with demons, which were briefly mentioned near the beginning of the thread and never developed.

Off the top of my head, here's a list of a few races that little has been done with-

Bhuka
Darfellan
Killoren
Locathah
Mongrelfolk
Raptorans
Sahuagin
Varags

The varags, locathah and sahuagin could all fit as generally evil races. Actually, I like the idea of the sahuagin in this setting: a mysterious, rarely seen and malignant race dwelling in deep underwater cities. It's almost Lovecraftian.

I also think varags or mongrelfolk could fit well into the steppes of Gloias, as direct competitors with the elves – bestial plains-dwellers, perhaps modeled on the Mongolians or Scythians.

[Elemental]

Well, for another faction to offset the Elves and the Dwarves, perhaps a couple of neutral kingdoms (and other countries/tribes/malignant entities) that keep getting in the way of their wars?

For example;
The Viridian Tribe consists of a sizeable, but not huge, population of Kobolds under the rule of a relatively young pair of green dragons.
The Viridians dwell within and under the ruins of a formerly abandonned Elven fortress, now known as Viridian Keep.
Despite being located in a valley right along a prime invasion route between the Elves and the Dwarves, the Kobold inhabitants have managed to fend off numerous attacks through sheer stubbornness and ingenuity. They now claim the entire valley surrounding Viridian Keep, much to the collective annoyance of both the Elves and the Dwarves.





And yes, the demons do indeed pose an immediate threat, particularly that soul-eating succubus mentioned near the beginning (I decided to call her Nefertari because it was annoying having to leave her as <insertnamehere>).

[Lord Tyger]

*pouts a bit*

Well, I'll just have to find somewhere else to put the Thurse then. More later.

[Elfin]

*pouts a bit*

Well, I'll just have to find somewhere else to put the Thurse then. More later.

I think that, even keeping the elves, the Thaithalians need not be half-elves. The idea of a vestigially monstrous race descended from giant progenitors is a very interesting one, and works as a perfect compromise between the goblinoid and half-elven propositions.

[Elemental]

Don't worry, just add in an icy peninsula that sticks out of the top of one of the continents.

[Pokonic]

To be fair, we already have a whole continent of always evil creatures: the dread lands. Those Ghasts and Malgoyals are mearly the tip of the iceberg.

[Deploy]

If somebody told me about a setting without humans the first image that comes to mind is a totally alien world where cephalopods have risen out of the waters and ruled for the last few thousand years and everything is radically different (doorways that are only inch wide holes in the wall). We don't have to go this route, but when it was said the humans had died out I was looking forward to watching something totally alien invent a completely different wheel. Most of the races we currently have could be a different race of humans than the ones that died out and the setting would still be the same for all intents and purposes. I think that if we're going to say there are no humans we should show why the orcs of savos aren't just humans with pointy teeth and green skin who survived a cataclysm.

Also I see no need to provide a designated antagonistic race to Savos. The continent itself is antagonistic: owlbears that could wipe out buildings, Sectoid Queens burrowed beneath the sand, an environment forced to rapidly change from fertile to arid, Dinosaurs running around, Demons chasing any spirit they see (which would be interesting for spellcaster s who keep spirits on hand to do their magic), not to mention we already have hyena riding Gnoll slavers. If anything its the others continents that need something to kill, although Ix-Al is good

[Algerin]

Sahuagin can be a direct antagonistic race I suppose.

I think that the wars between the Elves and Dwarves are rarely outright warfare, but more of a lot of "Cloak and Dagger/Cold War" situation where each side is always suspicious of the other, and both fight a lot of proxy wars.

Also, I don't know about you guys, but I would prefer that Shax-Li be located ON the continent of Gloias, confined somewhat to a crescent of blighted land in the far east. That way Shax-Li is a much more direct threat to the Elves and Dwarves and possibly one of the reasons why the elves and Dwarves aren't waging outright war.

I also like the idea that the people of Thaithal aren't Half-Elves either, but their own distinct race. If they ARE Half-Elves though, I would prefer if they weren't a unified threat. Perhaps there are Hobgoblin tribes there? The Half-Elves and Hobgoblins are both loyal to the same cause, but their generals and nobles rarely get along or agree to a course of action. I also like that the Hobgoblins would add a Mongolian Flavor to Thaithal, which was a major part of Asia that rarely gets talked about.

I agree that some third-parties will be especially important in Gloias. Mongrelfolk, Large Kobold Kingdoms, the Half-Elf tribes to the north can all serve as proxy powers or foils to the Dwarves and Elves as well as allowing more PC backgrounds.

[Elfin]

I completely agree, Deploy. Do you have any suggestions for metamorphosing the flavor of this world?

As for Savos, I suppose you're all right that we have plenty of antagonists already. On to Gloias, then — I do like the idea of varags.

I wonder, what if the dwarven civilization was modeled on medieval India?

[Elemental]

Hmmm... A cold war situation would help to explain why a single tribe of kobolds and two youngish dragons have managed to hold out against the armies of two much more powerful nations.


Cool idea about the dwarves being based on medieval India. You don't often see dwarves focussing on Mathematics and Astronomy.

[Pokonic]

Also, I don't know about you guys, but I would prefer that Shax-Li be located ON the continent of Gloias, confined somewhat to a crescent of blighted land in the far east. That way Shax-Li is a much more direct threat to the Elves and Dwarves and possibly one of the reasons why the elves and Dwarves aren't waging outright war.

The whole point of the place is to be a area where being there inherently kills you. The fact that souls who are revived always end up here is probably worse, and the horrific undead pirates will attack anywhere where there is a water source and a few people.

Also I see no need to provide a designated antagonistic race to Savos. The continent itself is antagonistic: owlbears that could wipe out buildings, Sectoid Queens burrowed beneath the sand, an environment forced to rapidly change from fertile to arid, Dinosaurs running around, Demons chasing any spirit they see (which would be interesting for spellcaster s who keep spirits on hand to do their magic), not to mention we already have hyena riding Gnoll slavers. If anything its the others continents that need something to kill, although Ix-Al is good

Its like Athas, exept there are no citys and there are more ways to die.

[Eldest]

Well, humans change rapidly, are innovative, are ambitious and aggressive, and grow quickly. So since those elements are absent, what changes?

[Elemental]

Probably the "Dark Ages".


At least on Savos.

[Algerin]

If somebody told me about a setting without humans the first image that comes to mind is a totally alien world where cephalopods have risen out of the waters and ruled for the last few thousand years and everything is radically different (doorways that are only inch wide holes in the wall). We don't have to go this route, but when it was said the humans had died out I was looking forward to watching something totally alien invent a completely different wheel. Most of the races we currently have could be a different race of humans than the ones that died out and the setting would still be the same for all intents and purposes. I think that if we're going to say there are no humans we should show why the orcs of savos aren't just humans with pointy teeth and green skin who survived a cataclysm.

Also I see no need to provide a designated antagonistic race to Savos. The continent itself is antagonistic: owlbears that could wipe out buildings, Sectoid Queens burrowed beneath the sand, an environment forced to rapidly change from fertile to arid, Dinosaurs running around, Demons chasing any spirit they see (which would be interesting for spellcaster s who keep spirits on hand to do their magic), not to mention we already have hyena riding Gnoll slavers. If anything its the others continents that need something to kill, although Ix-Al is good

Well in our lore, the humans really haven't been gone all that long a couple of hundred years at most. Before that, humans were the dominant players of Savos(If not the entire world). I do agree that Gloias needs some stuff to fight, but between Thaithal raiders, the undead of Shax-Li and the internal threats, conflict would abound. I do see campaigns set on Gloais being more of a political bent though.

The whole point of the place is to be a area where being there inherently kills you. The fact that souls who are revived always end up here is probably worse, and the horrific undead pirates will attack anywhere where there is a water source and a few people.



Its like Athas, exept there are no citys and there are more ways to die.

I realize that, but having it set in a crescent on the far east of Gloias has it be within easy reach if one WOULD want to go there, as well as keeping the action more focused on the two continents and the ocean between them. It also gives a reason for the Elves and Dwarves not to go all-out on each other, as Undead and Demon attacks wouldneed to be defended against frequently.

I completely agree, Deploy. Do you have any suggestions for metamorphosing the flavor of this world?

As for Savos, I suppose you're all right that we have plenty of antagonists already. On to Gloias, then — I do like the idea of varags.

I wonder, what if the dwarven civilization was modeled on medieval India?

I don't know a whole lot about Medieval India, but I can see the Dwarves having a strict Caste system that could set them apart. I like it.

[Elfin]

Since we already have the wasteland of Savos, I think it's better that Shax-Li be its own continent. If we add varags (and maybe sahuagin - not so sure about them as I was a few minutes ago), there'll be all the direct threat necessary, and keeping Shax-Li separate adds an air of mystique and danger.

Thaithal – hobgoblins seem rather overused these days, which is why I'm leery of them. Also, we don't yet have a setting-unique race, which I feel is always a nice touch; the thyrse, or whatever we end up calling them, could do nicely. I do like your idea of Thaithalians as being divided rather than united; I think that's a better idea than a single kingdom.

As for the Mongolians, what if we incorporated some elements into elven culture? They live in steppes, after all, and there were mentions of them being skilled riders and having lots of cavalry archers. They could be a fusion of the Mongolian/Scythian and Saxon or Celtic cultures.

not to mention we already have hyena riding Gnoll slavers

Do we? I missed that. While cool, I personally think I prefer varags, and the two are rather redundant. What are your folks' thoughts?

[Pokonic]

I realize that, but having it set in a crescent on the far east of Gloias has it be within easy reach if one WOULD want to go there, as well as keeping the action more focused on the two continents and the ocean between them. It also gives a reason for the Elves and Dwarves not to go all-out on each other, as Undead and Demon attacks wouldneed to be defended against frequently.

On Demonkind: there would actualy be far fewer there than on other places. Why? The Reapers tend to make sure any or all Demons leave the contianent as soon as they can on the pain of death, for they interfer with the soul-herding.

On the Gnoll/Varag dellema: why beat around the bush and not just make them Bugbears?

[Elfin]

Well, why are there so many demons in the first place? Earlier, I suggested that demons were corrupted moon/animal spirits; could their prominence be related to the wrath of Rohesia? Perhaps she's become convinced that the civilized races need to be "cleansed" in order to preserve the planet, and is creating these demonic armies for that purpose?

[Pokonic]

Yeah, but the place, while crawling with tasty spirits, is hostile to demons, hence them mostly in savage areas. The dead lands have no support for the animal or moon spirits, for the Reapers treat them the same.

[Lord Tyger]

The first thing about the Orcs is, they aren't green. That wouldn't make a lot of sense in the desert. Rather, their skin town runs naturally from a tawny gold to a dark grey. This is before the various ritual tattoos many tribes adopt.

They also aren't mammals, but rather avian in descent, the traces of which can be seen in their rigid fingers ending in talons, their raptorlike eyes, and the ridges of feathers down their spins and the length of their arms, as well as the fact that they are oviparous.

Orcs do not engage in exclusive relationships, but rather mate communally. Indeed, sexual promiscuity is not only permitted, but is a primary method of socialization (although strict social taboos limit this to within three sets of birthings of one's own, and not with one's nestmates). Resultantly, since the paternity of any individual is a matter of guesswork at best, descent and property are reckoned matrilineally.

Since Orcs traditionally place a great deal of importance on ancestry, going so far as to outlaw the hunting and eating of the terrestial avians they are most closely related to, the chieftan of a nomadic Orc tribe is most frequently female, and often the latest of an unbroken line reaching back at least to the founding of that Orcish tribe, if not to the quasi-mythical First Nest.

Though sexually active year round, Orcs are only fertile during certain complex arrangements of the six moons, which occur roughly once every three years. Notably, though the interval remains the same, the exact arrangement varies between Orc tribes. Thus, Orc tribes are divided not only among Nest-mates, or those born of a single female, but by birth year, with those of thirty-one years being distinct, for various religious and ritual purposes, from those of twenty-eight and thirty-four years.

(There. Now Orcs are bonobo-ostrich people).

[Algerin]

Since we already have the wasteland of Savos, I think it's better that Shax-Li be its own continent. If we add varags (and maybe sahuagin - not so sure about them as I was a few minutes ago), there'll be all the direct threat necessary, and keeping Shax-Li separate adds an air of mystique and danger.

Thaithal – hobgoblins seem rather overused these days, which is why I'm leery of them. Also, we don't yet have a setting-unique race, which I feel is always a nice touch; the thyrse, or whatever we end up calling them, could do nicely. I do like your idea of Thaithalians as being divided rather than united; I think that's a better idea than a single kingdom.

As for the Mongolians, what if we incorporated some elements into elven culture? They live in steppes, after all, and there were mentions of them being skilled riders and having lots of cavalry archers. They could be a fusion of the Mongolian/Scythian and Saxon or Celtic cultures.



Do we? I missed that. While cool, I personally think I prefer varags, and the two are rather redundant. What are your folks' thoughts?

Could you provide a link to some information about Varags?

I pick Hobgoblins just because they remind me most of the Mongolians: Proud, numerous, Excellent tacticians, Brutally effective and they even (Vaguely) resemble them. Any other race could do actually, provided sufficient fluff.

I was under the impression that the Elves already were somewhat Mongolian but playing up the fusion of Mongolian and Celtic/Saxon would be interesting. I also like the idea that the wealthy in Elf society would be the ones with the most horses, rather then the most gold.

I think sahuagin could be a lot more Lovecraftian in some aspects: They could offer deals, gold or jewelry to the surface races in exchange for sacrifices. Of course, mythology would stretch them out to be sea-demons of a type, but they would exist.

Wouldn't the abundance of Therianthropes be somewhat of a unique race(s)? It's obvious a lot of culture, mythology and religion has descended from the six moons, not to mention the fact that Therianthropes could even see themselves as seperate from the races they belong too due to their animal blood.

[Pokonic]

The first thing about the Orcs is, they aren't green. That wouldn't make a lot of sense in the desert. Rather, their skin town runs naturally from a tawny gold to a dark grey. This is before the various ritual tattoos many tribes adopt.

They also aren't mammals, but rather avian in descent, the traces of which can be seen in their rigid fingers ending in talons, their raptorlike eyes, and the ridges of feathers down their spins and the length of their arms, as well as the fact that they are oviparous.

Orcs do not engage in exclusive relationships, but rather mate communally. Indeed, sexual promiscuity is not only permitted, but is a primary method of socialization (although strict social taboos limit this to within three sets of birthings of one's own, and not with one's nestmates). Resultantly, since the paternity of any individual is a matter of guesswork at best, descent and property are reckoned matrilineally.

Since Orcs traditionally place a great deal of importance on ancestry, going so far as to outlaw the hunting and eating of the terrestial avians they are most closely related to, the chieftan of a nomadic Orc tribe is most frequently female, and often the latest of an unbroken line reaching back at least to the founding of that Orcish tribe, if not to the quasi-mythical First Nest.

Though sexually active year round, Orcs are only fertile during certain complex arrangements of the six moons, which occur roughly once every three years. Notably, though the interval remains the same, the exact arrangement varies between Orc tribes. Thus, Orc tribes are divided not only among Nest-mates, or those born of a single female, but by birth year, with those of thirty-one years being distinct, for various religious and ritual purposes, from those of twenty-eight and thirty-four years.

(There. Now Orcs are bonobo-ostrich people).

Nah, there beakless Kroot.

I think sahuagin could be a lot more Lovecraftian in some aspects: They could offer deals, gold or jewelry to the surface races in exchange for sacrifices. Of course, mythology would stretch them out to be sea-demons of a type, but they would exist.

They also have some sort of strange partnership with the strange traders from the east, and get mythril in exchange for large amounts of fish, for food is hard to find in the cold wastes.

[Elfin]

On the Gnoll/Varag dellema: why beat around the bush and not just make them Bugbears?

This is a varag:

Spoiler

Show

This is a bugbear:

Spoiler

Show

Edit: Also, Tyger, that's brilliant.

[Lord Tyger]

Nah, there beakless Kroot.

What's a Kroot when he's at home? Some sort of suprised German?

[Pokonic]

What's a Kroot when he's at home? Some sort of suprised German?

Huh? I dont understand.

[Lord Tyger]

Huh? I dont understand.

Kraut= slang for Germans circa World War One. Ooh!= an exclamation of surprise or delight. Kraut + Ooh=Kroot.

Or more plainly, I'm not familiar with the Kroot, what are they, and what are they from?

[Elfin]

Could you provide a link to some information about Varags?

The varags wouldn't be a replacement for the hobgoblins, just to clarify. They're the proposed antagonistic race for Gloias. They're originally found in MM3; here's some info I found about them.

Wouldn't the abundance of Therianthropes be somewhat of a unique race(s)? It's obvious a lot of culture, mythology and religion has descended from the six moons, not to mention the fact that Therianthropes could even see themselves as seperate from the races they belong too due to their animal blood.

Oh, right, nearly forgot about therianthropes. Nonetheless, I personally prefer the idea of thyrse to that of hobgoblins.