Let's make a setting!

[Elemental]

The Kroot are a race from Warhammer 40K. Don't know much about them myself.

[Algerin]

Huh? I dont understand.

Kraut-Kroot

The first thing about the Orcs is, they aren't green. That wouldn't make a lot of sense in the desert. Rather, their skin town runs naturally from a tawny gold to a dark grey. This is before the various ritual tattoos many tribes adopt.

They also aren't mammals, but rather avian in descent, the traces of which can be seen in their rigid fingers ending in talons, their raptorlike eyes, and the ridges of feathers down their spins and the length of their arms, as well as the fact that they are oviparous.

Orcs do not engage in exclusive relationships, but rather mate communally. Indeed, sexual promiscuity is not only permitted, but is a primary method of socialization (although strict social taboos limit this to within three sets of birthings of one's own, and not with one's nestmates). Resultantly, since the paternity of any individual is a matter of guesswork at best, descent and property are reckoned matrilineally.

Since Orcs traditionally place a great deal of importance on ancestry, going so far as to outlaw the hunting and eating of the terrestial avians they are most closely related to, the chieftan of a nomadic Orc tribe is most frequently female, and often the latest of an unbroken line reaching back at least to the founding of that Orcish tribe, if not to the quasi-mythical First Nest.

Though sexually active year round, Orcs are only fertile during certain complex arrangements of the six moons, which occur roughly once every three years. Notably, though the interval remains the same, the exact arrangement varies between Orc tribes. Thus, Orc tribes are divided not only among Nest-mates, or those born of a single female, but by birth year, with those of thirty-one years being distinct, for various religious and ritual purposes, from those of twenty-eight and thirty-four years.

(There. Now Orcs are bonobo-ostrich people).

While it's not a horrible idea, I feel like once you start messing with the actual biology and look of a race, then it ceases to be that race. You're going to say Orc, but once you describe it, players will always picture Either A) Tolkiens/Peter Jacksons Orcs B) WH40K Orcs C) The Orcs in the MM.

I like the ideas, but maybe it'd be better to have this race as a parallel to the orcs in the area? Give them a different name and a few more details to flesh them out and you have another "Savage" race that would be interesting for the players to encounter.

[Elfin]

That's a good point. Nonetheless it seems that our orcs should have something to differentiate them; and also, once you can no longer count the number of civilized races in a setting on your fingers, it starts to get out of hand.

[Algerin]

That's a good point. Nonetheless it seems that our orcs should have something to differentiate them; and also, once you can no longer count the number of civilized races in a setting on your fingers, it starts to get out of hand.

We differentiate them by modifying their culture. Without human settlements to raid, they took up a more nomadic lifestyle to get by. They would probably travel in small tribes, since they may not have mastered agriculture, following either herd of giant lizards for meant and skin and occsionally making pilgrimages to religious sites or making offerings to the Primal Owlbears. They'd wear lizard-skins and use scavenged weapons traded from the goblins and Kobolds that followed them alongside bone weapons made from the lizards and maybe other, more deadly creatures. Think an entire race of Monster Hunters.

The varags wouldn't be a replacement for the hobgoblins, just to clarify. They're the proposed antagonistic race for Gloias. They're originally found in MM3; here's some info I found about them.



Oh, right, nearly forgot about therianthropes. Nonetheless, I personally prefer the idea of thyrse to that of hobgoblins.

Looking at the Varags I can see them being very antagonistic to the Elves. Perhaps the Varags love the taste of horse flesh and frequently raid Horse farms?

[Pokonic]

The Kroot are a bunch of tribal creatures decended from avians, have sparce feathers, follow a father figure, and breed like rabbits.

[Sergeantbrother]

I like what Lord Tyger did with the orcs, making them essentially an entirely new fantasy race. Maybe if we're going for exoticness in discarding humans, we should work on making all of the species a bit difference from the standard fantasy setting.

[Lord Tyger]

Perhaps Karura (the Japanese form of the Garuda, an Indian avian/humanoid deity) for the ostrich-bonobo people, then?

[Elfin]

I wouldn't mind just calling them the garuda.

[Lord Tyger]

I wouldn't mind just calling them the garuda.

That works too, although Garuda as a species for me are always the bird-people with the alien ethical system from Perdido Street Station.

[Elfin]

I wonder, could the garuda/karura just replace the orcs?

And might they actually have wings, either for flight or just for gliding?

[Algerin]

That works too, although Garuda as a species for me are always the bird-people with the alien ethical system from Perdido Street Station.

Same here.

I wonder, could the garuda/karura just replace the orcs?

And might they actually have wings, either for flight or just for gliding?

I think they can replace the Orcs, though I wouldn't give them wings. I imagine them more as feathery, bipedal raptors(Though looking as Tyger described) with weapons and a quick, clicking speech. Their tactics could also be very "Raptor-ish" with one or two serving as bait while the rest flank around, hit and run attacks, feigning weakness or injury to lure them into traps and other such naturally devious tactics. AKA fun to fight, fun to run..

Perhaps Karura (the Japanese form of the Garuda, an Indian avian/humanoid deity) for the ostrich-bonobo people, then?

I like Karura, it's easy to remember and say.

[Lord Tyger]

I wonder, could the garuda/karura just replace the orcs?

And might they actually have wings, either for flight or just for gliding?

Hmm. I conceived of them as being closer to various terrestial birds such as the ostrich or emu than to anything flighted, but it's not just my world. My take was no flight, but a hell of an overland movement pace (an Emu can hit something like 30 mph (or in the area of 50 km/h for those of you who are on the metric system). Admittedly, that's in a dead sprint, but they're built to travel distances, as well. (Following this, garuda/karura would be proportionately much leggier than other humanoid species.) While the main nomadic groups would probably have camels or some sort of domesticated lizard as beasts or burden/pack animals, I'd imagine you'd see scouting and raiding parties speeding around entirely on foot, except on the rare occasions where they found something worth besieging.

[Pokonic]

I'd imagine you'd see scouting and raiding parties speeding around entirely on foot, except on the rare occasions where they found something worth besieging.

Then they break out the war griffons and the owlbear collosi.

[The Witch-King]

Okay. Yes, half-elves, half-orcs, etc., that's a dodge around the whole "no humans" thing. I don't think hobgoblins are a solution either. And I think that while the idea of the fallen descendants of giants is a great idea, I also think that "shorter descendants of giants = humans" so that's as much of a dodge as is half-elves.

I don't think the uldras are a solution as is because they are Small and in general, I personally believe that you can't take Small races seriously. I don't mean that they can't be a threat--kobolds working together in their lair with proper intel and traps can annihilate a low-level party. I mean that when the Black Shogun enters the room, he won't have the presence, the majesty and the menace he's meant to have if he's three and a half feet tall. That and replacing humans and half-elves with blue-skinned humans doesn't really do anything either. At least their being albinos makes sense in a land with no sun.

Half-elves, while being a dodge for humans, are a perfect choice for the Thaithal. A colony of albino half-elf descendants is just enough different from elves to avoid the "oh my god, it's yet another subrace of elves" lack of wonder scenario while emphasizing the core dichotomy of the Thaithalians that they are brutal and savage on the battlefield but genteel, sophisticated and artistic away from it. That emphasis is entirely lost with standard hobgoblins.

The problem as I see it is Thaithal, period. The rest of the campaign setting is alien and that's the attribute that should be emphasized, even more so than we've done so far. I highly recommend the "avianized" orcs be given their own name and be made the dominant race of the planet. Lose the half-elves, elves and dwarves from the planet entirely and ramp up the alien feel. The idea of humans having died out I would say several thousand years ago instead of several centuries ago and humanity being the ancients is awesome. Adventurers scouring ancient human ruins for magical artifacts, ancient spells and recoverable ancient war machines is too awesome an opportunity to miss. Putting in a rule that human weapons and armor don't naturally fit the hands and bodies of the successor races so that when you recover something you either have to modify it or use it at a penalty or get an exotic weapon proficiency would be ideal as well.

"What kind of crazy barding is this!?"

"It's magic barding intended for something called a 'horse'--a large, quadripedal herbivore mammal used by the ancients as a beast of burden and war."

"Well that's all well and good, but how the hell am I going to use it on a two-legged axe beak?"

"I don't think you can but I think we can make some modifications to the straps and buckles and fit it on a riding lizard."

"Fine."

Thaithal, however, doesn't fit that alien theme. Thaithal is a clearly recognizably Asian culture and thus by definition a clearly human one. Making the Thaithalians half-elves or hobgoblins or giant descendants wouldn't change that and losing the Japanese flavor of the Thaithalian culture, well, that was the whole point. The whole concept is feudal Japan plus. Feuding clans, a figurehead emperor (or in this case an empress), samurai, bushi, ninjas, kitsune, kumo, wako pirates, etc. but with shadowmancy, rule by hereditary sorcerers, eternal twilight, Viking-style raids, six-legged beetle war golems, a bitchin' volcano fortress for the Black Shogun, etc.

I really think the best thing for the setting is to make it two settings. Ramp up the alienesque atmosphere of the rest of the planet, leave the humans as dead, eliminate any traditional PC races like halflings, dwarves, gnomes or elves and have Thaithal be it's own setting somewhere else.

Other things:

Also... The Queen of Nine Tails, does she go on the list as well, or is she just a regular, if powerful, mortal?

The Queen of Nine Tails is just a regular, if powerful mortal sorceress. She may or may not be kitsune as the DM sees fit, of course.

And a question of my own: Why are people describing the Thaithalians as unified? Do you mean, their empire is a single race? Cause again, that was the whole point, that they were like the Japanese, an insular culture not liking and completely distrusting foreigners.

I guess I have a real problem as seeing them as "unified" when they're constantly warring among themselves and even their supposed supreme leaders are powerless to stop that for fear of the whole empire collapsing.

And yeah--I'm totally gonna run a Thaithal campaign after some more work...

[Elfin]

You may be right. Thaithal is very cool and I hate to see it go, but maybe it just isn't the best fit for this setting.

[Algerin]

Okay. Yes, half-elves, half-orcs, etc., that's a dodge around the whole "no humans" thing. I don't think hobgoblins are a solution either. And I think that while the idea of the fallen descendants of giants is a great idea, I also think that "shorter descendants of giants = humans" so that's as much of a dodge as is half-elves.

I don't think the uldras are a solution as is because they are Small and in general, I personally believe that you can't take Small races seriously. I don't mean that they can't be a threat--kobolds working together in their lair with proper intel and traps can annihilate a low-level party. I mean that when the Black Shogun enters the room, he won't have the presence, the majesty and the menace he's meant to have if he's three and a half feet tall. That and replacing humans and half-elves with blue-skinned humans doesn't really do anything either. At least their being albinos makes sense in a land with no sun.

Half-elves, while being a dodge for humans, are a perfect choice for the Thaithal. A colony of albino half-elf descendants is just enough different from elves to avoid the "oh my god, it's yet another subrace of elves" lack of wonder scenario while emphasizing the core dichotomy of the Thaithalians that they are brutal and savage on the battlefield but genteel, sophisticated and artistic away from it. That emphasis is entirely lost with standard hobgoblins.

The problem as I see it is Thaithal, period. The rest of the campaign setting is alien and that's the attribute that should be emphasized, even more so than we've done so far. I highly recommend the "avianized" orcs be given their own name and be made the dominant race of the planet. Lose the half-elves, elves and dwarves from the planet entirely and ramp up the alien feel. The idea of humans having died out I would say several thousand years ago instead of several centuries ago and humanity being the ancients is awesome. Adventurers scouring ancient human ruins for magical artifacts, ancient spells and recoverable ancient war machines is too awesome an opportunity to miss. Putting in a rule that human weapons and armor don't naturally fit the hands and bodies of the successor races so that when you recover something you either have to modify it or use it at a penalty or get an exotic weapon proficiency would be ideal as well.

"What kind of crazy barding is this!?"

"It's magic barding intended for something called a 'horse'--a large, quadripedal herbivore mammal used by the ancients as a beast of burden and war."

"Well that's all well and good, but how the hell am I going to use it on a two-legged axe beak?"

"I don't think you can but I think we can make some modifications to the straps and buckles and fit it on a riding lizard."

"Fine."

Thaithal, however, doesn't fit that alien theme. Thaithal is a clearly recognizably Asian culture and thus by definition a clearly human one. Making the Thaithalians half-elves or hobgoblins or giant descendants wouldn't change that and losing the Japanese flavor of the Thaithalian culture, well, that was the whole point. The whole concept is feudal Japan plus. Feuding clans, a figurehead emperor (or in this case an empress), samurai, bushi, ninjas, kitsune, kumo, wako pirates, etc. but with shadowmancy, rule by hereditary sorcerers, eternal twilight, Viking-style raids, six-legged beetle war golems, a bitchin' volcano fortress for the Black Shogun, etc.

I really think the best thing for the setting is to make it two settings. Ramp up the alienesque atmosphere of the rest of the planet, leave the humans as dead, eliminate any traditional PC races like halflings, dwarves, gnomes or elves and have Thaithal be it's own setting somewhere else.

Other things:



The Queen of Nine Tails is just a regular, if powerful mortal sorceress. She may or may not be kitsune as the DM sees fit, of course.

And a question of my own: Why are people describing the Thaithalians as unified? Do you mean, their empire is a single race? Cause again, that was the whole point, that they were like the Japanese, an insular culture not liking and completely distrusting foreigners.

I guess I have a real problem as seeing them as "unified" when they're constantly warring among themselves and even their supposed supreme leaders are powerless to stop that for fear of the whole empire collapsing.

And yeah--I'm totally gonna run a Thaithal campaign after some more work...

Well, to be fair, we still are in a brainstorming phase. We're hashing out the details of the world.

Very personally, I would prefer to keep Elves, Dwarves and some of the other races and just modify them culturally to be very different from the vanilla versions of them for a few reasons. The first, it lets the players recognize what's what. "Oh, that's an elf, cool." And then you go on to describe how the Elves are Horse-Lords and roam the open plains and live in Native-American style Pit-houses and then they say "Oh, cool these Elves really ARE different without having a million sub-races!."

The second reason is because it provides a contrast. The Players will leave an Elven Village and then come across these weird bird creatures that talk in clicks and hunt in packs and are covered in tattoos. It makes the actual weird stuff that much weirder without alienating the players too much. If you overwhelm them with weirdness, it begins to become mundane. "Oh, Jellyfish plants that communicate via telethapy and speak backwards. What's next?"

I know this isn't true for everyone, but I find a race to be more interesting if you give them a cultural bent that impresses the player more then just "A million weird things at once, sort through it."

A good example of this is Morrowind. The Dunmer had their own culture, religion, mythology and such, but there were also Imperial towns around that were familiar and made the weird parts all the weirder.

[Pokonic]

To be fair, it is quite isolated from everyone else. Its as alien as a land ruled by former humans, now undead abomintations. Play that up when PC's sneak on one of there boats and try to understand these strange elfin people
and there stranger ways. Making them have some surving trappings of a old human culture should make them even more bizzare.

[Lord Tyger]

The jötunn can be read as humanity writ large, sure, but only if that's particularly what you're looking to do. Jörmungandr the Midgard Serpent and Fenrir the great Wolf were both entirely giants (born of Loki and a female jötunn ).

Personally, I wouldn't go with anything so extreme except in certain notable cases (Thaithal would certainly be more interesting if there were a small chance that any pregnancy could result in something truly bizzare and dangerous), but build them more along the lines of trolls (broad enough to appear squat, despite being much taller than humans, facial features resembling the more apelike reconstructions of Neanderthals, or go even further and make them Fraggle-esque and then have the modern Thyrs be scaled down versions of them, rather than just of giant humans.

[Pokonic]

To build on that idea: Instead of having lines of Tree-men, the half-blooded Thaithalans occasionaly have a clan member become a great broad giant, with skin like rock and blood like ice.

[The Witch-King]

Well, to be fair, we still are in a brainstorming phase. We're hashing out the details of the world.

Very personally, I would prefer to keep Elves, Dwarves and some of the other races and just modify them culturally to be very different from the vanilla versions of them for a few reasons. The first, it lets the players recognize what's what. "Oh, that's an elf, cool." And then you go on to describe how the Elves are Horse-Lords and roam the open plains and live in Native-American style Pit-houses and then they say "Oh, cool these Elves really ARE different without having a million sub-races!."

The second reason is because it provides a contrast. The Players will leave an Elven Village and then come across these weird bird creatures that talk in clicks and hunt in packs and are covered in tattoos. It makes the actual weird stuff that much weirder without alienating the players too much. If you overwhelm them with weirdness, it begins to become mundane. "Oh, Jellyfish plants that communicate via telethapy and speak backwards. What's next?"

I know this isn't true for everyone, but I find a race to be more interesting if you give them a cultural bent that impresses the player more then just "A million weird things at once, sort through it."

A good example of this is Morrowind. The Dunmer had their own culture, religion, mythology and such, but there were also Imperial towns around that were familiar and made the weird parts all the weirder.

You raise many excellent points sir. I look forward to seeing how you suggest treating dwarves.

Because I hate dwarves.

They are just walking cliches.

"I'M SHORT, MEAN AN' LOUD!! I'VE GOT A BEARD AND I'M SCOTTISH AND I LIKE TO HIT THINGS WITH A HAMMER!! AYE LADDIES, ATTACK!! FOR THOR--ALE--AND WHORES!!"

[Elfin]

Where do the therianthropes fit into this? They seemed once to be a major aspect of the setting, but perhaps they can now be safely discarded.

And perhaps we could replace the dwarves with the thyrse.

[Lord Tyger]

Where do the therianthropes fit into this? They seemed onde to be a major aspect of the setting, but perhaps they can now be safely discarded.

I figure people are going to elaborate on the bits that interest them. I'm not opposed to the therianthropes, or I would have tried to do something about it back when they first got introduced, but they don't interest me much, so I haven't said much about them.

That said, if someone wants to elaborate on them, since the original conception was that the different classes were linked to the six different moons, so now that we've got names for some of the moons, figuring which moon is linked to the wereinsects, which to the weremammals, and so on.

[Sergeantbrother]

Where do the therianthropes fit into this? They seemed once to be a major aspect of the setting, but perhaps they can now be safely discarded.

And perhaps we could replace the dwarves with the thyrse.

Personally I'd rather discard them than keep them. Shape changers are interesting when it comes to humans, but I think with the exotic creatures that we have now, that it's piling too much on. Like avian Orc were bears.

Though personally I have always though that a setting with just humans had more potential to be exotic than one with strange humanoids. Because then the exotic feel will come from cultural depth instead of different ear shapes, heights, or skin colors.

[Pokonic]

Where do the therianthropes fit into this? They seemed once to be a major aspect of the setting, but perhaps they can now be safely discarded.

They are the thing every place has in common. Some are hated, some are revered, and some are tolerated. Traveling with one might save your party from a giant sea-serpent or get you killed by a group of elven thugs. With a wide amount of forms and shapes, they are versitile and can survive in almost any place on the planet. They populate the seas and rule the skys, and all are powerful and potent foes and allys.

That said, if someone wants to elaborate on them, since the original conception was that the different classes were linked to the six different moons, so now that we've got names for some of the moons, figuring which moon is linked to the wereinsects, which to the weremammals, and so on.

I would do this, if it saved them from being axed. Also, would like to keep the fantasy races.

[The Witch-King]

Where do the therianthropes fit into this? They seemed once to be a major aspect of the setting, but perhaps they can now be safely discarded.

That's a good question. Because I've been wondering what the heavy emphasis on werecreatures was going to do to the Level Adjustments for starting campaigns. Is every campaign going to start at level 6 or 7 so you can play a were-lion or a were-crocodile or whatever?

[Lord Tyger]

Personally I'd rather discard them than keep them. Shape changers are interesting when it comes to humans, but I think with the exotic creatures that we have now, that it's piling too much on. Like avian Orc were bears.

Though personally I have always though that a setting with just humans had more potential to be exotic than one with strange humanoids. Because then the exotic feel will come from cultural depth instead of different ear shapes, heights, or skin colors.

Only if you're lazy with the other humanoids. Otherwise, you can say, "Look, they've got these odd physiological traits, how will this affect their culture?"

[Elfin]

That's a good question. Because I've been wondering what the heavy emphasis on werecreatures was going to do to the Level Adjustments for starting campaigns. Is every campaign going to start at level 6 or 7 so you can play a were-lion or a were-crocodile or whatever?

We do have to regard mechanical implications, that's a good point.

Personally I don't particularly like the therianthropes now that our conception of the setting has changed; I vote for their removal.

[Pokonic]

Indeed. If the orcs can sprint like nothing else, what would a typical orc carry around with them? how would a elven Tree Man deal with not being able to wear metal items, for the constrain there bulk and wear on there skin? What would make one tribe hate the local were-tigers and another revere them?

I vote for keeping them. ( the werebeasts.)

[Algerin]

Well, I'm thinking that the Dwarves will be part-Renaissance Italian, part-Indian. They follow a strict-caste system and everyone knows there place, but with hard-work they can move up the Caste system. This would give them a reason to work so hard as smiths, Architechs, miners, warriors etc.

I'm also beggining to think that rather then have Dwarven Houses swear fealty to a king, they should all be individual city-states ruled by a local lord. The Cities then ally with each other. A lot of double-crossing and back-stabbing of course, but also the knowledge that if they grow too fractured the Elves will be able to walk all over them.

I think organization will be very important to Dwarves with the Caste system. Guilds will include the craftsmen, inventors, scribes and such. Guilds will pledge their services to houses, adding even more conflict as the House that gains the benefits of the largest forging guild will obviously have an advantage.

The Houses will then swear fealty to provide their services to a Lord or other Noble. The Lords will in turn jockey for control over various hamlets/mines/logging rights with the other lords to advance their own agenda.

Dwarven Houses will include either a single extended family(Fathers, Mothers, Brothers, Sisters, Cousins, Aunts, Uncles, Nieces, Second and Third Cou
sins etc) or an alliance between numerous families for mutual benefits. Family member would constantly be trying to rise up in the Caste system and in their own house as well.

I'm not sure what to do about Dwarven religion just yet. I'm going to go look at some Indian Religion rather then have it be vanilla Dwarven fluff or base it off Italian Catholicism.

[Lord Tyger]

Of course, that gets into evolutionary psychology, which is always a touchy subject, but I think this is a fairly harmless exercise in it, especially if we stay away from "Always Chaotic Evil," type labeling for the naturally occurring races (undead and the belike are a different matter, although I'm in favor of good undead being possible, personally).