LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen

[Asta Kask]

The romans probably pronounced it kis-, but modern pronounciation is sis-.

[Mina Kobold]

Oh its just my friend's all seem to have this unified "Guyness" that I do not have. You're right though, its largely irrelevant compared to other stuff.

Happens to me too with both boys and girls*, but that might just be social ineptitude. ^_^'

I do notice that most male students tend to be loud, competitive and a number of often occurring teenage human behavioural patterns, but it is far from omnipresent or gender-limited as far as I can tell.

I am pretty sure cultural factors are the biggest blame here, though. It would certainly fit with the psychological development and pattern-breakers.
So don't feel like it's a bad thing not to have a silly personality trait that your friends have!

But more importantly, the people with positive Wisdom modifiers in this thread are right. Questioning yourself should not be unusual when faced with a major turnaround (The discovery of a solution to a problem you had thought unsolvable in this case), so don't worry and take your time figuring out what you want.

*Human schools are sadly limited in their variety of gender, number of limbs and effects on sanity. It's always, male/female, four and boringly normal. T_T

PS: I am getting kinda word-heavy, am I not? I am very sorry for ranting so often on silly and unrelated stuff. Sorry. m(_ _)m

[Kittenwolf]

I cannot speak for your experiences but most of the guys I've known in my life have displayed a "guy culture" when there are no girls around that I found awkward and extremely uncomfortable. I don't know if its common but I do know I want nothing to do with it .

I definitely know what you mean. Though like C'nor all my current guy friends are pretty much the same in mixed or single gender company, most of my friends from University dorms definitely had that "Guy thing" going.

Warning: This contains some sexist and homophobic language, though it's definitely not condoned
Disclaimer: This is all based on my own observation, so it's quite possible my little bubble is very different from the world at large.

My long-held theory is that it's a trust/security thing. Growing up (at least when I was) you get bombarded with tonnes of stuff that carries the underlying (or blatant) message that guys are rough, tough, masculine individuals who take charge, view females in a very un-equal way, and must never show femininity or weakness. Along with this comes the implied message that women are to be dominated and men with any hint of feminity are to be ridiculed and squashed, because while 'women can't help being feminine', a guy who acts that way had a choice, and so is an Abomination.
Now most of us (gods I wish it was all of us, but there's always some bad eggs) know that this is complete and utter crap, but the "Never be seen as weak" thing tends to kick to the fore when you're in a group of guys (especially ones you don't know really well) so you subconciously somehow fall into an "Act like I'm apparently supposed to act and nobody will think me weak" mentality and before you know it you're carrying on at the top of your lungs about 'banging chicks', 'beating the crap out of pricks' and how 'any guy who dyes their hair is a poof'.

I've seen situations where three guys who were all nice blokes, not the least bit homophobic and were all for gender equality, end up exhibiting the above neanderthal behaviour simply because they were in a room together and didn't all know each other well.

I've been guilty of doing it myself, fear of being ridiculed just makes you 'play along' even though there's a little voice in your head going "What the hell? Dude! You're nothing like this, what's going on?!".
Overcoming it means not only being willing to show this culturally-perceived "weakness" to a friend, but also being willing to show it in front of a third party. You need to be close enough to the others to show this 'weakness', and also trust them enough to know they won't consider as such.

If you want to see a similar cultural phenominon, put half a dozen people who all share the same socially controversial view (like guys being allowed to wear dresses) in a room, but make sure each doesn't know the others share their views.
Now get one of them to express that view. Chances are even though every other person wants to agree, they'll all either hold their tongues or deflect the conversation down a new path, just in case everyone else disagrees.

Do girls exhibit similar behaviour? Alas I've never been able to find out first hand :)



*Regarding Crying

It's possible to get over, but it requires either work or tragedy. If you have any interest in gettin the ability to cry back, I'd suggest working on it. Really sad stories, letting stuff get to you, not shutting out stuff that you'd normally shrug off. Its better than the alternative, methinks.

Well, family has been through at least three or four tragedies since those days, unfortunately nothing has got anywhere yet :(
I think it's exacerbated by a coping mechanism both myself and my mum share "If you can't affect it don't let it bother you". I'm living in hope that I get there one day though.

[noparlpf]

I'm not quite a normal manly-man guy even around other guys. I don't talk about banging chicks or beating up pricks or drinking or hunting or sports, not one of which interests me. (Wait, I bought a skateboard yesterday, does that count as a sport? Does parkour? Does boffing? Not the sexy-times kind, the geeky foam weapons kind, mind you.) When somebody makes a joke about rape or something that goes over the line I usually point out that that wasn't cool. I definitely get sucked up into the loud, competitive mindset. Even one friend who's a really good, mature kid tends to get a bit louder and more competitive when we're around other guys.
Interestingly, there are several girls in that group who exhibit the same sorts of "adolescent male" behaviours.
I'm lucky enough to have met plenty of nerdy or geeky "weird" kids both in public and private school to never have had a problem being the "weird geeky not-exactly-properly-masculine-as-defined-by-contemporary-cultural-norms guy". It's pretty cool.
And I'm not really sure about most of the queer kids at school because I don't hang out with very many, but most of the male-identified ones I've interacted with never seemed to be into that hyper-masculine culture either. I think it has something to do with being more aware of how silly cultural norms tend to be these days.

[Al'izh'dheg]

My goodness. I take a hiatus from a new thread over the holiday and come back to 14 pages of stuff! Yikes. Sorry I'm so far behind. I hope everybody is having a wonderful year so far.

[KenderWizard]

Regarding my secret alter-ego, the might Kenderwoman:

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I've found a picture of you, Kenderwoman:

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I'm picturing this with a cape:

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Darn, Asta beat me to it with a better pic.

Nope is fine. Or you can call me Jude if that's easier. "noparlpf" is pronounced "nop-arr-uhl-puff".

I love you guys!

And hell, have I been pronouncing noparlpf wrong. I've been pronouncing it "noe-parl-pff".

*Hands puppy to nearest puppy-loving person*

Yay!

Can my disguise be a cat-ear hair band? It is Kitty-esque and conceals identity! :3

... Oh, right! LGBTA, uhm, queer kittens? ._.

Yes. Definitely yes. Your disguise is, in fact, required to be a queer kitten. That's so adorable!

Edit: The Matrix would be so cool to allow all us GitP'ers to hang out together.

I know, I was just thinking the other day that I'd love if we could all meet up! Everyone would have to dress as their avatar, though, otherwise I'd be totally confused.

http://mohandasgandhi.tumblr.com/pos...little-brother

Let's add some d'aww at your day.

I saw that earlier, it's so lovely!

Oh, it's sorta alternative to transgender, it's mostly used because it's shorter and meant to include everyone who's not gender-normative. (Since transgender tends to have various meanings as well, but I think it can just be used interchangeably with transgender.)

Trans* always confuses me because I always look for the small print. You know, like when people make a point*.

Do girls exhibit similar behaviour? Alas I've never been able to find out first hand :)

Not actually sure... Sometimes in mixed groups, girls who are smart and sharp and funny in all-female groups suddenly become quiet and pretend to be dumb and laugh at the boys' jokes. So, I guess, girls are more relaxed and talkative in all-girl groups? I don't know, I'm usually the only girl!

*And then they add something at the bottom of the page?

[golentan]

Isn't that just a matter of getting chaoskristy and the right hardware in the same place?

Umm...

If she's comfortable with that, not every trans woman is. Then again, there's always other "aids".

Yeah...

[bluewind95]

http://mohandasgandhi.tumblr.com/pos...little-brother

Let's add some d'aww at your day.

That is SO cute!

When somebody makes a joke about rape or something that goes over the line I usually point out that that wasn't cool.

Wow, so I'm not the only one who doesn't find those kinds of jokes funny? Good to know. I move around in another circle where I'm considered overly sensitive for saying that I don't think rape jokes are cool.

Re crying:

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I used to cry a lot less until a lot of my emotional barriers were knocked down by some people. Not especially in a good way. I think that once something gets past the "barriers", it's easy to get more into crying. And putting up barriers would make it easier to NOT cry. I daresay that the reason "masculine" tends to be more associated with not crying is because they tend to be more pressured into putting up these barriers.

[Knaight]

Wow, so I'm not the only one who doesn't find those kinds of jokes funny? Good to know. I move around in another circle where I'm considered overly sensitive for saying that I don't think rape jokes are cool.

I suspect "unfunny and in bad taste" is the dominant view in this thread. I can't say the same thing about society as a whole.

[noparlpf]

Wow, so I'm not the only one who doesn't find those kinds of jokes funny? Good to know. I move around in another circle where I'm considered overly sensitive for saying that I don't think rape jokes are cool.

Most of the people I hang out with regularly consider them unfunny and in poor taste, but I do run into people who make rape jokes. I tell them that it's not okay to joke about and trivialize something so horrible.

[Coidzor]

I'm always confused by the topic, I suppose I should count myself lucky that I don't properly know what constitutes a rape joke.

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The only joke (and I use the term quite loosely here as it does not appear to be intended humorously or jocularly) that I've ever really heard that involved the word rape has been the expression that "X team is raping Y team" because they're so handily beating them at the game, and then crouching and then standing in rapid succession over their corpses if it's a shooter of some sort.

Well, unless you count the old joke about the stupid/dyslexic/hard of hearing person who just moved to Alaska and misheard the "set a trap, kill a bear, and [bed] a [woman]" standard of Alaskan manhood and stumbled out of the woods, torn to hell and partially mauled that asked where the [woman] he was supposed to kill was. But that seems to play more upon the stupidity and incredulity at having survived a bear hug than the act itself.

Trans* always confuses me because I always look for the small print. You know, like when people make a point*.

*And then they add something at the bottom of the page?

Footnotes and hidden text, yeah, I can see how that'd get old.

[H Birchgrove]

On trans*:

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Something I've been wondering about: During MtF hormone therapy, breasts grew larger, AFAIK. Does the opposite happen to the genitals?

The Skepchick blog entry/entries reminds me about another thing I've wondered: I've known for some considerate time that the penis is used to create the vagina etc. (I didn't know that the testicles were basically thrown away.) The thing is, is that I have 1. a rather morbid mind, which keeps having fantasies about worst-case scenarios that could happen to me. 2. something of castration anxiety and 3. ironically, perhaps a mild case of vagina envy (is it just me or does Karen Horney look rather smug in that photo?). All this together have made me wonder "What would I do if my penis (and testicles) were lost in an accident or by some evil-doers groin attack?" And naively enough, my suggestion to myself is that getting hormone therapy and SRS in order to become a "functional" woman, rather than a *castrated* man... I know this (may) be offensive and unrealistic from a psychological POV, but what about the medical issues? Would it be impossible to create a vagina for a man/transwoman who has gotten his/her male genitals destroyed?

On the Matrix Trilogy and its universe:

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Please remember that The Machines failed to create an Utopia or Shangri-La for the humans, because "we" managed to see through it. "We" needed a gray reality with imperfections and evils. Thus it makes sense that transwomen, transmen, intersex persons etc exist in the "faked"/simulated Matrix reality.

On my questioning:

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I failed to keep track on how many times I've felt like telling my mother I'm bi this holiday, and yet not done it. Not fun.

Have had a lot of fantasies about having sex with transwomen lately. I don't mind that *really*, I think... I mind it becoming an obsession of sorts. I just want to mention it, somewhere, to someone.

(I do still fancy ciswomen. I might post about it at the Relationships Woes thread.)

On a lighter note + Feminism:

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I saw the Swedish comedy SOS yesterday, which among many things had a sailboat race between a female team and a male team. (Film spoiler: The female team won.) Which made me think of other matches and races between all-male and all-female teams, IRL and in fiction. Which made me think about a way to make *surprising* twist to it. If someone is willing to help me make a comic or something out of it, please contact me.

Here's my idea ("spoilered" in white text):

Female team vs. male team in some sport (soccer, perhaps).

Male team is declared winners. They cheer.

Both teams remove belts.

The male team were actually women and the female team were actually men.

I'm open for suggestions to replace the DnD reference with something *less* obscure.

I hope it isn't offensive. I'm always uncertain when my jokes are "clever"/fun and when they are not.

EDIT: Drat. I just realised the joke would just prove that male bodies are "superior" to female bodies. That wasn't the "point" I was aiming at. I was thinking about the opposite (women winning, then taking of belts etc), but it didn't sit well for me.

Why do my jokes *only* work when I'm *not* thinking them, when they just "happen"?

[Arachu]

Dreaming

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Well, you guy's dreams all sound so fun compared to the weird psychedelic-apocalyptic visions I've been having in my sleep since childhood.

I have those interrupt my daydreams sometimes. I don't even want to describe what my metaphorical 'demons' looked like... Most of the time I don't truly dream in the first place, and they usually don't go well (most taunt me by almost letting me get something I want repeatedly and others are so horrifying they'd make Rob Zombie blush).

My daydreams are usually okay, though (mostly because they're almost lucid dreams in their own right and I have reasonable control over the chain of events).

I don't think that really applies here; Arachu was wondering about whether or not one could actually experience what it would be like to wake up as a member of the opposite sex, as an objective experience, using that method. To figure out how one would react to what one thinks being the other sex would be, you could just do a thought experiment, rather than anything complex.

For example, if one had always had a shaved head, they couldn't learn anything about what having hair on their head felt like unless they grew some, once they'd exhausted descriptions. All they'd be able to find out by imagining it would be what what they imagined it being like felt like.

Yeah, it wouldn't be so good for learning about what it's like to be a member of the opposite sex. That would require more wiring than I've labelled.

The important part would be the reaction. You'd have to forget that you've planned it, and believe that you were actually awake (remembering wouldn't make for much of a test, and your reaction wouldn't be the same if you knew that you were dreaming).

... In the Twilight Zone.

Not too hard, but really the fun of dreams is in letting go. An overly analytical approach to it could possibly change the focus, from the dreamy soft tinge you want to the more narrow, contrasted view you don't.

Try setting an extra alarm every other day, either an hour or half-hour earlier that usual. Wake up, slap yoursel or sommat, get fully awake, then go backto sleep. You should dream rather vividly, and remember it easier.

True. I don't really have to get up early (night courses ), but I could just set an alarm until I do anyway. Hmm...

Psychology

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I actually had the opposite reaction to a similar situation in high school. Around year 8 I kind of told myself "That's it, not letting them see me cry every again". Since then, well, I physically *can't* cry anymore, despite plenty of times when it was appropriate and times I've really wanted to. Don't think I've cried in about.. 14 years.

*hug* I did that with my emotions. It only lasted a year, but I had to reconstruct them myself... I didn't even realize how bad it was until I was done. *shudder*

While I can't comment on any of the other stuff, I'm a bit confused as to why this, especially the bolded bit, would be taken as evidence either way... I'm a cisgendered male, and most of my close friends are female (eleven (twelve if you count my sister) of them are female, and six, or at most (if one loosens the definition a bit), eight (? I'm not sure if one of them is trans or not, which would make it thirteen female and seven male. I haven't seen that person in quite a while, at least not for longer than a few minutes, though they did show up at the final showing of a play I was in presenting as female, from what I could tell...) are male). And, too, I and all of my male friends don't really seem to act terribly differently when it's just us than when we're with our female friends, other than that, in some cases (though not all; a lot of my friends are interested in theater and art, due to having met them through two plays, which both included a very talented artist friend of mine, who I hung around with quite a bit), we might tend to talk about things that we're interested in that they aren't, as we tend not to do so when they're around so that they're not bored. Is there a reason I'm missing that this isn't a null clue?

It's seen as pretty important in some tangents of psychology (I'm looking at you, Freud). It makes some sense, what with that established gender segregation and childrens' tendencies to imitate the people they want to be like.

Beyond that, though, it sort of sort of trails off. Plus, there are so many counter-examples (such as myself) that it just doesn't really make so much sense.

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I've heard similar too, just not with pillow. Pillow, specifically, always had more... Warm connotations. Jeans, cushions, corduroy (very specifically corduroy) willowbark, and leather all for the no-fun, don't bite through your tongue stuff, but not pillows.

What do they make zippers out of, again?... Plastic or some kind of metal (brass?).

... I'd go on, but I think I just scarred myself.

[Asta Kask]

I just watched Sherlock Holmes "Game of Shadows" and I can say this - they really play up the homoerotic vibes between Downey and Law. Really, they're not concealing anything.

And if you're interested, you get to see Stephen Fry almost naked.

[Astrella]

*snip*

On trans*:

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Well, it's basically the same breast development as happens in cis girls during puberty.

Hormone therapy does cause shrinking of the testicles in trans women.

I think it'd depend on the damage to the genitals. The most common technique used for trans women is penile inversion, though I've also heard of colovaginoplasty, which uses part of the colon. (Though I think that one's usually reserved for certain intersex conditions. Though I don't know if you'd still have sensation in that case. Hmmm.

On questioning:

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Hmm, what is your parents stance on LGBT+?

Also, I don't think there's something inherently wrong with being specifically attracted to trans women, as long as you treat them with respect and aren't creepy about it. (Being attracted to a girl because she happens to have a penis isn't really a good foundation for a relationship.)

[H Birchgrove]

*pour honey in tea*

I just watched Sherlock Holmes "Game of Shadows" and I can say this - they really play up the homoerotic vibes between Downey and Law. Really, they're not concealing anything.

I say!

And if you're interested,

Quite.

you get to see Stephen Fry almost naked.

How rude. That we only get to see him *almost* naked...

*sips tea*

[bluewind95]

I just watched Sherlock Holmes "Game of Shadows" and I can say this - they really play up the homoerotic vibes between Downey and Law. Really, they're not concealing anything.

And if you're interested, you get to see Stephen Fry almost naked.

That version of Holmes makes me cry. Holmes is supposed to be ASEXUAL. Not some libido-driven flirt.

[Asta Kask]

Holmes' libido is firmly under control. Most of the thrusting motions are made by Watson. I'm more sad over the evolution of Holmes from brilliant intellect to Steampunk James Bond.

Although there's a Sherlock Holmes to beat even this - Asylum's Sherlock Holmes. Asylum is schlock-fest company with movies like Giant Piranha and Mega-Shark vs Giant Octopus under its belt. Sherlock Holmes investigates a boat sunk in the harbor and some murders in London. Turns out that a gigantic octopus sunk the boat and T-Rexes (sic) did the murders. But what criminal mastermind lies behind it all?

[Mina Kobold]

On a lighter note + Feminism:

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I saw the Swedish comedy SOS yesterday, which among many things had a sailboat race between a female team and a male team. (Film spoiler: The female team won.) Which made me think of other matches and races between all-male and all-female teams, IRL and in fiction. Which made me think about a way to make *surprising* twist to it. If someone is willing to help me make a comic or something out of it, please contact me.

Here's my idea ("spoilered" in white text):

Female team vs. male team in some sport (soccer, perhaps).

Male team is declared winners. They cheer.

Both teams remove belts.

The male team were actually women and the female team were actually men.

I'm open for suggestions to replace the DnD reference with something *less* obscure.

I hope it isn't offensive. I'm always uncertain when my jokes are "clever"/fun and when they are not.

EDIT: Drat. I just realised the joke would just prove that male bodies are "superior" to female bodies. That wasn't the "point" I was aiming at. I was thinking about the opposite (women winning, then taking of belts etc), but it didn't sit well for me.

Why do my jokes *only* work when I'm *not* thinking them, when they just "happen"?

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Why not just have it be disguises, then? Or really good illusions!

Also, why is gender important in a sailboat competition? Queer Kitty is confused. @w@

That version of Holmes makes me cry. Holmes is supposed to be ASEXUAL. Not some libido-driven flirt.

I have heard something about Holmes flirting or appearing to do so when interested in the person's mystery, but there is indeed a lot about him being asexual...

To the eLibrary* of eBooks!

*Or just my iPhone, as I found quite a few Holmes stories for it. :3

[Asta Kask]

Picture of Keveak as QueerKitty

[Worira]

Uh... The thing is, the male body IS better than the female body at competitive rowing. Substantially. Gender equality doesn't mean ignoring actual physiological differences between sexes, any more than racial equality means saying black people can get sunburned just as easily as whites.

[Asta Kask]

Uh... The thing is, the male body IS better than the female body at competitive rowing. Substantially. Gender equality doesn't mean ignoring actual physiological differences between sexes, any more than racial equality means saying black people can get sunburned just as easily as whites.

However, this was a sailboat race.

[Worira]

Oh, herp. I'm a herpaderp.

[Reluctance]

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"What would I do if my penis (and testicles) were lost in an accident or by some evil-doers groin attack?" And naively enough, my suggestion to myself is that getting hormone therapy and SRS in order to become a "functional" woman, rather than a *castrated* man... I know this (may) be offensive and unrealistic from a psychological POV, but what about the medical issues? Would it be impossible to create a vagina for a man/transwoman who has gotten his/her male genitals destroyed?

Doctors could create one, just like they could give you a prosthetic penis. Actual sensitivity would depend on how severe the damage was. Getting the nerves to work out just right would be tricky if you didn't have a decent template to start from.

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Both teams remove belts.

The male team were actually women and the female team were actually men.

It's funnier when you don't think about magic items. Or maybe I just have a dirty mind.

[Lix Lorn]

I just watched Sherlock Holmes "Game of Shadows" and I can say this - they really play up the homoerotic vibes between Downey and Law. Really, they're not concealing anything.

And if you're interested, you get to see Stephen Fry almost naked.

It's a very enjoyable film.
I did consider ranting about how HOLMES IS NOT THE KIND OF GUY WHO PUNCHES PEOPLE but hey, the films were awesome anyway.

Plus, it's RDJ, he is ALWAYS a deadpan snarker witty genius badass flirt. He does it so well.

[noparlpf]

Picture of Keveak as QueerKitty

I was picturing a kobold with a kitty-ear headband wearing a pride wristband until I saw the picture.


On Sherlock Holmes: I liked the two new movies, even though the characters weren't very accurate to the books. (By the bye, I just glanced up from typing and noticed my copy of The Complete Sherlock Holmes on the shelf in front of me. It's the only book on that shelf; apparently that shelf is currently functioning as a tool shelf.) Watson is rather more competent than in the books, Holmes is rather more involved in things like romance and physical combat and such.

[Heliomance]

It's a very enjoyable film.
I did consider ranting about how HOLMES IS NOT THE KIND OF GUY WHO PUNCHES PEOPLE but hey, the films were awesome anyway.

Plus, it's RDJ, he is ALWAYS a deadpan snarker witty genius badass flirt. He does it so well.

I haven't seen it yet, so I don't know context, but I'm pretty sure Holmes was an expert at hand to hand combat.

[Asta Kask]

In the stories, he's actually a formidable singlestick fighter, fencer, boxer and Bartitsu practitioner. His favorite weapon is the riding crop. He is very strong, being able to straighten out a bent steel poker with his bare hands. So the movies' interpretation isn't that off.

[Kneenibble]

On Sherlock Holmes: I liked the two new movies, even though the characters weren't very accurate to the books. (By the bye, I just glanced up from typing and noticed my copy of The Complete Sherlock Holmes on the shelf in front of me. It's the only book on that shelf; apparently that shelf is currently functioning as a tool shelf.) Watson is rather more competent than in the books, Holmes is rather more involved in things like romance and physical combat and such.

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[Lix Lorn]

I haven't seen it yet, so I don't know context, but I'm pretty sure Holmes was an expert at hand to hand combat.

He was?

In the stories, he's actually a formidable singlestick fighter, fencer, boxer and Bartitsu practitioner. His favorite weapon is the riding crop. He is very strong, being able to straighten out a bent steel poker with his bare hands. So the movies' interpretation isn't that off.

OH
He was! I knew that!

He does seem to enjoy it more in the films tho.