Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[H Birchgrove]

Lead a mild fantasy life, or just enjoy the fluttery feeling when you hang out together?

Or, you know, people could hold honesty above monogamy as a virtue. My girlfriend is sleeping with her roommate, and regularly encourages me to go after people, and we have a fine thing going on. Monogamy can be a great thing, but I'm not sure at all it should be the standard by which relationships are judged.

Mega gusta.

If we ever meet IRL, can we have... eeerrr... a giving and fruitful physical relationship?

[Heliomance]

You don't reward that kind of bad thinking with emotional support and then become an enabler for an abusive and deleterious cycle while simultaneously showing yourself to be neuter.

You don't sound like you're being a "nice guy" yet, but that'd be because you don't sound sexually frustrated or like you think that being the neuter pillow who doesn't have feelings that can be hurt or a personality that can be impinged will get you anywhere with her.

I don't quite understand - are you trying to say that being there for your friends when they need emotional support is a bad thing?

[golentan]

Mega gusta.

If we ever meet IRL, can we have... eeerrr... a giving and fruitful physical relationship?

I cannot comment. Honestly, I'm pickier physically with guys than girls, so that might get in the way. And I'd want to at least know you a little better than internet level first. But... maybe...

[Objection]

I don't quite understand - are you trying to say that being there for your friends when they need emotional support is a bad thing?

No, I think what he's saying is that this bit:

and then become an enabler for an abusive and deleterious cycle

is missing from you, and that's why you're a nice guy as opposed to a "nice guy". At least, I think that's what he's saying. I could be wrong.

[Coidzor]

^: He's definitely not being a nice guy, but I wouldn't hold his actions as the best course for him to have taken or her to have asked of him.

I don't quite understand - are you trying to say that being there for your friends when they need emotional support is a bad thing?

I'm saying giving emotional support when you shouldn't and when it's being taken as support for her wanting to get back with him rather than giving her emotional support and reminding her that, yes, there is a reason that those who care about her think it's a bad idea is, well, a bad idea.

For one thing, if you feel you can't reinforce just how bad of an idea that is, the relationship the two of you have is on rather shaky ground.

For another, just blindly giving emotional support when it is unwarranted or it's being used in a way that is detrimental to someone is just being an enabler.

Like, say, for instance, that a friend has decided that her daddy issues are such that she's going to start sleeping around behind the back of her fiance with half the town and not use protection. Just giving her emotional support is, in fact, giving tacit or explicit approval of such bad decisions and poor morals.

Or giving someone emotional support and encouragement when what they're considering returning to an ex-lover who beat them.

Not as egregious a situation as those examples, but combined with the fact that you've stated you want her, not good, especially when you willingly neuter yourself to do it rather than say pointing out that, while you do value her and want to give her emotional support, gushing about some other guy she likes but who mistreated her and who she now wants back to you, someone who actually is on record as having a thing for her, is kind of a bad thing.

Like the slap in the face or the putting out of a cigarette on one's forehead/heart.

Granted, this changes if you haven't ever actually voiced such feelings to her, but that's more of a case where I feel one should respectfully decline being the emotional hugbox or pillow and maintain some measure of distance.

[Heliomance]

^: He's definitely not being a nice guy, but I wouldn't hold his actions as the best course for him to have taken or her to have asked of him.

I'm saying giving emotional support when you shouldn't and when it's being taken as support for her wanting to get back with him rather than giving her emotional support and reminding her that, yes, there is a reason that those who care about her think it's a bad idea is, well, a bad idea.

Oh, believe me, I have been stressing the fact that we think it's a bad idea. My strongest advice has been that she stay single for a while - I don't think she's in a particularly good place to start a relationship from right now in general.

Not as egregious a situation as those examples, but combined with the fact that you've stated you want her, not good, especially when you willingly neuter yourself to do it rather than say pointing out that, while you do value her and want to give her emotional support, gushing about some other guy she likes but who mistreated her and who she now wants back to you, someone who actually is on record as having a thing for her, is kind of a bad thing.

Like the slap in the face or the putting out of a cigarette on one's forehead/heart.

Granted, this changes if you haven't ever actually voiced such feelings to her, but that's more of a case where I feel one should respectfully decline being the emotional hugbox or pillow and maintain some measure of distance.

She certainly knows that I used to have a thing for her, I don't know if she's realised that I still do. So how does one give the emotional support that's needed, without becoming the "neuter pillow"?

[Reluctance]

She certainly knows that I used to have a thing for her, I don't know if she's realised that I still do. So how does one give the emotional support that's needed, without becoming the "neuter pillow"?

It comes down to the difference between Friend Zone and Nice Guy.

Friendzoned is when she views you as the neuter pillow. And if she's complaining to you about other guys she has the hots for, you're already there. What it means is relatively simple: She does not look at you that way. Contrary to what romance movies tell you, she will never look at you that way. What you do from there is entirely up to you. Just so long as you keep things realistic.

Nice Guy is the name for that happy bundle of entitlement and soured anger that happens when unrealistic plan after unrealistic plan fails to work out. You're not saying that it's all the fault of the evil womenfolk. You're not saying that they're bad people for wanting to be attracted to their partners. You're not trying to bash/strawman every other guy around you to make yourself look good. Being a suckup is a poor relationship strategy. It's when you insist that you're owed ***** for your suckupitute that you start to become a Nice Guy.

[Coidzor]

She certainly knows that I used to have a thing for her, I don't know if she's realised that I still do. So how does one give the emotional support that's needed, without becoming the "neuter pillow"?

You warmly but firmly direct them to their girlfriends and provide vague condolences that things aren't working out for them as it is an area inappropriate for you to deal with in depth if you want her or you accept that you've failed to be viewed as an eligible man to be rejected and will never have a ghost of the chance and so should endeavour to excise those feelings from yourself.

[golentan]

Personally, I advocate total honesty. "I admit to being a biased observer, because of my past and/or current feelings for you..." removing any false impression of you as a neutral or "neuter" object in the circumstances "...but..." followed by the best honest advice you can give as a friend. Not as someone trying to get into her pants, just as an honest friend.

Bugs me that people think romantic feeling and true friendship are incompatible, or that someone experiencing both has an ulterior motive. You can be supportive without being condescending or enabling, and you can... meh. Mutter mutter mutter, rabble rabble rabble...

[Coidzor]

The temptation exists, so why not encourage people to not expose themselves to overmuch of it?

Certainly seems to beat the idea of encouraging people to drown themselves in it.

Of course, it's not so much romantic feelings as one-sided romantic feelings that are the question, and that pretty much depends upon the individuals involved.

But, just as I view it as immoral to manipulate someone into giving gifts and paying for things for one's self simply because one knows that there's a crush there and that they're too spineless to stand up for themselves, I have no choice but to view it as inappropriate to heap too much burden about one's love life on to someone who has gone on record as having unrequited feelings for one's self.

[term1nally s1ck]

As a voice to the contrary, I don't believe you can then go on treating that person with permanent kid gloves regarding that kind of issue. If you're going to get over it, and have that person as a friend, there should be no difference in the way you behave from any other friend. If you never do anything that isn't appropriate for someone who has feelings for you, then you never give them any reason to get over those feelings. It's like saying if someone has problems walking, they should never do anything involving their legs in case it hurts them a little.

Get the hell over those feelings, and treat the person you want as a friend as a friend. That includes giving appropriate advice and support.

[Ancano]

So for lack of better options, I've decided to try my hand at online dating. Anyone have any recommendations or advice? Any good sites i should check out?

[term1nally s1ck]

If you use a free site, search for the male profiles first, and read through quite a few of them. You'll find a lot of stuff appears pretty regularly. Don't use those.

[Heliomance]

Personally, I advocate total honesty. "I admit to being a biased observer, because of my past and/or current feelings for you..." removing any false impression of you as a neutral or "neuter" object in the circumstances "...but..." followed by the best honest advice you can give as a friend. Not as someone trying to get into her pants, just as an honest friend.

Bugs me that people think romantic feeling and true friendship are incompatible, or that someone experiencing both has an ulterior motive. You can be supportive without being condescending or enabling, and you can... meh. Mutter mutter mutter, rabble rabble rabble...

This. Why is it not possible to be friendly and caring and sympathetic - honestly so, not just delivering platitudes - without becoming "neuter"? Sensitivity is oft-touted as a desired quality, is it not?

And to be honest, I don't want to just pass her off to her girlfriends (not that she really has many, what with her primary friend group being a traditionally male-dominated gaming society). I want to make sure that she's okay myself.

[Coidzor]

This. Why is it not possible to be friendly and caring and sympathetic - honestly so, not just delivering platitudes - without becoming "neuter"? Sensitivity is oft-touted as a desired quality, is it not?

Well, now you're conflating having to be a shoulder to cry on with debasing yourself, though, granted, it wasn't ever spelled out all that clearly exactly what was going on, it just sounded rather suspiciously like examples* I'd run into in the past.

But, sensitivity is not a quality that's going to cause you to be noticed by her sexually or romantically, which is really all that's pertinent to the context of you wanting her and her using you as the shoulder to cry on about her boy troubles when you're a failed suitor.

That and you seem to be extrapolating in the wrong direction from a place that it is likely inappropriate for her to ask you to go and for you to be too willing to put yourself in and instead thinking it covers every and all circumstances.

And to be honest, I don't want to just pass her off to her girlfriends (not that she really has many, what with her primary friend group being a traditionally male-dominated gaming society). I want to make sure that she's okay myself.

Then, as was said, get rid of your feelings for her if that's the role you want to play.

*

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Either an overreaction or a bit of misrecollection on my part, as I was thinking at the time that you had already given her a warning to take Mr. Playboy with a grain of salt before she went whole hog for him, and that combined with going crying to you about it after it predictably didn't work out, showed that she was doing one of those tired old routines of only going to you for validation but not actually affording you enough respect to actually consider your perspective or advice, only sponging off the positive attention you supply her with.

Having to hear about a girl doing this in my friend circle IRL ad nauseum has been taking its toll on my thinking it seems. So I apologize on that account.

[Heliomance]

Well, now you're conflating having to be a shoulder to cry on with debasing yourself, though, granted, it wasn't ever spelled out all that clearly exactly what was going on, it just sounded rather suspiciously like examples* I'd run into in the past.

But, sensitivity is not a quality that's going to cause you to be noticed by her sexually or romantically, which is really all that's pertinent to the context of you wanting her and her using you as the shoulder to cry on about her boy troubles when you're a failed suitor.

That and you seem to be extrapolating in the wrong direction from a place that it is likely inappropriate for her to ask you to go and for you to be too willing to put yourself in and instead thinking it covers every and all circumstances.



Then, as was said, get rid of your feelings for her if that's the role you want to play.

And yet, I'd do no different for any friend, and any romantic interest. To not be there when a friend was in need, to not help someone I care about if there was anything I could do would be to go against everything that I am. Are you saying that I should therefore give up on ever having a girlfriend, because my urges to help will forever stop it from being a possibility?

[Coidzor]

And yet, I'd do no different for any friend, and any romantic interest. To not be there when a friend was in need, to not help someone I care about if there was anything I could do would be to go against everything that I am. Are you saying that I should therefore give up on ever having a girlfriend, because my urges to help will forever stop it from being a possibility?

If you can't stop yourself from falling into a pattern of giving off signs that you're not interested or on the market or worth considering, then, yes, I must admit, it would start to look hopeless after a while.

But, really, I rather hope you don't have unrequited romantic notions for all of your friends.

And if you have to get to this kind of place in a friendship before you can feel romantic feelings, well, demisexuality changes the playing field significantly.

[Heliomance]

If you can't stop yourself from falling into a pattern of giving off signs that you're not interested or on the market or worth considering, then, yes, I must admit, it would start to look hopeless after a while.

But, really, I rather hope you don't have unrequited romantic notions for all of your friends.

And if you have to get to this kind of place in a friendship before you can feel romantic feelings, well, demisexuality changes the playing field significantly.

How is caring about how other people feel and wanting to do something about it a sign of not being interested?

...I can feel myself getting defensive about this, and I apologise. There's no reason for me to be, sorry.

No, I don't have unrequited romantic feelings for all my friends, but I wouldn't consider a relationship where I couldn't call the other party a friend much of a relationship. As for demisexuality, I WISH I was demisexual. I'm not a fan of my mating urge. I dislike it thoroughly. That's another story though, and not directly related.

[AtlanteanTroll]

So, blah.

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So, I've sort of been making a move on this girl I was crushing on. We've been hanging out some and stuff, and she been more and more accessible lately. And ... and I'm slowly (very slowly) losing interest. WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME? *grumbles* "Always want what we can't have *grumbles*

I still plan on asking her out. At some point. But seriously, what the Hell is wrong with my psyche.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Related to relating to people despite still having feelings...

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As I told my last girlfriend when we met to discuss the breakup, "I still love you. You know that. I'd like nothing more than for us to keep being friends and have some chance at putting things back together again. But know this; I'll not be made a pet. I've seen too many made pets, and too many have tried to make me one, and I've let one too many succeed. No matter how I feel about you, I will not let that happen. Because if that happens, we will never be friends again."

[Reluctance]

Ancano: Link your profile(s) here. We'll kick you in the balls many times over, but better to learn what doesn't work that way than to learn through protracted failure.

Sensitivity is oft-touted as a desired quality, is it not?

Yes. Just like models stuck on a bad shoot in Nigeria make a big deal about how important trust is.

The fact of the matter is this. Look at who they ****, and look who they cry to when it goes south without any ****ing. Bitterness is the left-hand path when you realize this; guilt-tripping and browbeating people into relationships is BAD. But it is worth paying at least as much attention to what people do as you do to what they say.

AT: Partially thrill of the hunt, which wears off after you've made some headway. And from what I've seen of you before, I wouldn't be surprised if some element of your attraction was based on some ideal that had to give ground as you got to know the real girl.

[Starwulf]

Ancano: Link your profile(s) here. We'll kick you in the balls many times over, but better to learn what doesn't work that way than to learn through protracted failure.



Yes. Just like models stuck on a bad shoot in Nigeria make a big deal about how important trust is.

The fact of the matter is this. Look at who they ****, and look who they cry to when it goes south without any ****ing. Bitterness is the left-hand path when you realize this; guilt-tripping and browbeating people into relationships is BAD. But it is worth paying at least as much attention to what people do as you do to what they say.

AT: Partially thrill of the hunt, which wears off after you've made some headway. And from what I've seen of you before, I wouldn't be surprised if some element of your attraction was based on some ideal that had to give ground as you got to know the real girl.

While I will generally agree with what you say, there are some women who like to do the horizontal mambo with those whom shoulders they lean on. My one and only one night stand was with a woman who constantly used me as a shoulder to whine at(not really cry). Then one day, we both got fired from work for some idiotic reason, she invited me over to get drunk, and then came onto me. Surprisingly, I resisted, insisting to wait until neither of us were drunk, and then 2 hours later when we were both sober, she still wanted me ^^ So, it does happen.

Of course, the above is one of two sexual encounters I deeply deeply regret, for reasons I'd rather not disclose, but that I consider extremely shameful, especially on my part.

[Drascin]

And if you have to get to this kind of place in a friendship before you can feel romantic feelings, well, demisexuality changes the playing field significantly.

Oh, hey, that thing actually has a name? I thought I was just weird .

Not being able to so much as even notice whether someone is attractive until you're already their friend makes things rather more awkward than usual, yes .

[Serpentine]

{Scrubbed}

As a voice to the contrary, I don't believe you can then go on treating that person with permanent kid gloves regarding that kind of issue. If you're going to get over it, and have that person as a friend, there should be no difference in the way you behave from any other friend. If you never do anything that isn't appropriate for someone who has feelings for you, then you never give them any reason to get over those feelings. It's like saying if someone has problems walking, they should never do anything involving their legs in case it hurts them a little.

Get the hell over those feelings, and treat the person you want as a friend as a friend. That includes giving appropriate advice and support.

That works for me.

[Serpentine]

So my ex-boyfriend has gotten drunk for Australia Day and is now abusing me on Facebook. Wheeee!
I thought I'd always been totally honest with him about everything, but apparently at one point I told him "we had a future beyond (my) uni career". I honestly don't remember that conversation, but if I did say that then dear god have I screwed him over. But maybe he misunderstood something, or I misunderstood a question, or... who knows? When I said I can't defend, refute or explain it he informed me that "you bitch, you owe me that".
So I'm feeling like a pretty awesome human being right now

Why couldn't we have this conversation when he's sober?

[The Succubus]

So my ex-boyfriend has gotten drunk for Australia Day and is now abusing me on Facebook. Wheeee!
I thought I'd always been totally honest with him about everything, but apparently at one point I told him "we had a future beyond (my) uni career". I honestly don't remember that conversation, but if I did say that then dear god have I screwed him over. But maybe he misunderstood something, or I misunderstood a question, or... who knows? When I said I can't defend, refute or explain it he informed me that "you bitch, you owe me that".
So I'm feeling like a pretty awesome human being right now

Why couldn't we have this conversation when he's sober?

Meh, that sucks. Although why he felt the need to have what should have been a highly personal conversation publicised over Facebook is beyond me. Could it be that you two were having an idle flight of fancy about the future one evening and he took it to be serious?

[Serpentine]

Facebook chat, not a wall.
No, it's definitely not that. I remember the context of the conversation, but not actually saying what he thinks I said.

[Asta Kask]

Human memory is very fallible. Scarily fallible in fact.

[Serpentine]

And my memory is notoriously bad. But I don't think it's the sort of thing I would've said. But then, my memory's notoriously bad... I don't know! If I did say that, then it's a pretty damn big hole in my "well, at least I was always open and honest with him..." defense. And even if it was just a misunderstanding or something on his part, the poor guy's still been going through the relationship with false assumptions. How can I apologise for that?

[Asta Kask]

Assuming you never said anything about the far future, and he lived with false assumptions - he made those assumptions and they're not your fault. Strictly speaking there is no need to apologise - although you may want to anyway because otherwise you may seem like a bitch.

If you want to apologise, I suggest something like "I don't remember saying anything like that but I'm sorry if I gave you that impression."