Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[Asta Kask]

I'll second the request for info on learning how to flirt.

I can USUALLY tell when I'm being flirted with, but don't really know how to respond. And, again, there's that whole creepy line thing, and I HAVE crossed it in my lame attempts at flirting before.

Read any of Lix's posts. She's the queen of light flirtation on the boards.

[golentan]

Read any of Lix's posts. She's the queen of light flirtation on the boards.

And heavy flirtation. And cybering. And...

You know what? All hail Lix, Love(platonic and carnal)'s avatar on these hallowed boards.

[Asta Kask]

I think she is the incarnation of Slaanesh, god(dess?) "of lust, excess, pleasure, perfection and hedonism."

[Form]

Argh, I've missed an opportunity to ask out a girl I've got my eye on because I didn't want to do so in front of other people. I think I should be a bit more assertive and simply use the opportunity (i.e. next time I see her) when one presents itself rather than wait for the perfect moment.

Ah well, at least I've got a little more time to enjoy this mild crush of mine.

[Sholos]

Third the request for flirting information.

[John Cribati]

Herpestidae's Three T's of Flirting:
Note: I'm using "her" because I'm male and find it difficult to discuss this without being heteronormative. Sorry.
1: Tone

This is kind of tricky. Overall, the main flirting tone of voice is "quasi-serious." Everything you say has to sound like you're almost trying to tell a joke and almost expect the other person to laugh uproariously.

2: Teasing.

This is where the flirting actually starts. Point something out, almost anything will do. Then just stay on the topic for several minutes.

Note that I said "Almost anything." Use your judgement. You wouldn't, for example, want to bring attention to a girl's weight if you know she's touchy about it (Protip: She is).

Example: I started off with a whole discussion about women, high heels, and how men get all emasculated around taller women.

3: Trap

This is where the deal is often broken, so once again, use your judgement. Out of nowhere, focus the conversation on some aspect of her; her eyes, her skin, her collarbones (this one works well if she's wearing a low-cut top, FYI; it says" I'm aware of your breasts but thinking beyond them"). Be as flattering as you can muster. This is a trap, and every time she tries to wriggle out, you pull the knot a bit tighter. And remember the tone. This can easily come off as creepy or perverted. You're just messing around. It's also fun to throw in a few "I can tell you want me"s if you're feeling adventurous.
Example, continued: Once she said something about how women like heels because it compliments their figures, I started putting the conversation on her figure, and then it spiraled out from there.

[Drascin]

Is there any advice people have on getting better at this? Preferably other than "practicing!" Because I'm pretty sure I'm terrible at it. If anything, it's that I often don't treat people differently based on gender, at least in terms of how I interact with them - if we have common interests, we'll get along well. I'll tease friends, but it usually doesn't feel like flirting (at any level), since I do so to both male and female friends equally.

I can say I sympathize.

About the advice, though, I gotta say I think a lot of Lix's flirting would be considered really creepy coming from an IRL male that has never shown himself to be flirtatious. Generally speaking, trying to start flirting out of nowhere is going to weird out people who know you, most likely . so I would guess starting small is probably going to be necessary for better results.

In other news, I appear to have fallen to a bit of an actual crush for the first time in a pretty long while. Ah well .

[Asta Kask]

I also think that a lot of Lix's flirting works better online than in real life... a lot is in delivery, for instance. Tone of voice, prosody, etc. None of which are present on the net.

[Heliomance]

"Boink"?

No. At no point did I ever say that. I don't want to "boink" her, I would like to have a romantic, emotional, and meaningful relationship with her. Whether or not, at some point down the line, that involves sex seems largely irrelevant - and given my views on sex, namely that I don't want to do it with anyone I don't have a reasonable expectation of spending the rest of my life with, it would be a long way down the line. I am unsure precisely what I said to give you the impression that "boink" was an appropriate word to use, and I am further unsure as to why you personally disagree with it. Could you clarify, please?

I'm still waiting on an answer to this. I'm actually quite offended that you assumed I was after nothing but sex.

[bhtooefr]

This is kind of tricky. Overall, the main flirting tone of voice is "quasi-serious." Everything you say has to sound like you're almost trying to tell a joke and almost expect the other person to laugh uproariously.

Ugh, and that's where I have a lot of trouble, I think - I think it comes out like I'm trying too hard, and that comes off as creepy.

And then I get eyerolled at or outright told to shut up by everyone present, and then next time I'm trying to flirt, I have even less confidence than before, and botch it even worse.

[Reluctance]

Ugh, and that's where I have a lot of trouble, I think - I think it comes out like I'm trying too hard, and that comes off as creepy.

And then I get eyerolled at or outright told to shut up by everyone present, and then next time I'm trying to flirt, I have even less confidence than before, and botch it even worse.

While I'm the first to come out and say that people are horrible at predicting what they will like, they're not half bad at communicating what's an immediate good/bad. Go out with some girls who are friends, have them point you at people. ("My friend over there is trying to give me flirting pointers", while it probably won't get you into anyone's bedroom, is enough of a cute line to get a conversation going.) They can then give pointers to refine your game.

If you want ninja panty-melting secrets, you won't get them in a place like this. You'll have to go to shadowy places, separate good advice from traps designed to milk money out of bitter people, and acknowledge that the whole process requires a good deal more cynicism than you may be comfortable admitting to yourself. But then, if there were easy, happy methods that worked, the world would be a different place than it is right now.

[Coidzor]

I'm still waiting on an answer to this. I'm actually quite offended that you assumed I was after nothing but sex.

Such was not my intent at all, and I apologize for the miscommunication on my part being catastrophic enough to transmit that to you.

I must admit, I was careless and for that I apologize. I did not intend to say that I viewed you as having sexual interest in exclusion to romantic interest, but rather that these things were both present in my analysis of the situation and that your platonic feelings went without saying as you had said more than I ever could on the subject.

[Heliomance]

Such was not my intent at all, and I apologize for the miscommunication on my part being catastrophic enough to transmit that to you.

I must admit, I was careless and for that I apologize. I did not intend to say that I viewed you as having sexual interest in exclusion to romantic interest, but rather that these things were both present in my analysis of the situation and that your platonic feelings went without saying as you had said more than I ever could on the subject.

So why did you say you "personally disagreed" with that, and that while you weren't attempting to present it in a "morally absolute sense", you evidently still considered that desire immoral in some way?

[Ancano]

Before worrying about love, ask why do you hate yourself? And then, whether you can do something about it?

You won't reach fruits from a tree from the bottom of a pit. Try to get over the edge first, and your chances become much better.

Why do you want a relationship? To feel important? To feel happy?

I'd worry more about the 'hating yourself' thing stopping you doing that, to be honest. You can feel happy and fulfilled without a relationship, you can't really get to that stage while despising your own existence.

It's an ongoing self esteem issue that I've been dealing with all my life. It's something that is going to plague me for the rest of my life. Is there any way I can attract girls while in a state of self loathing?? Because I'm 22, never been kissed, and I'm starting to get pretty lonely.

[Objection]

It's an ongoing self esteem issue that I've been dealing with all my life. It's something that is going to plague me for the rest of my life.

Stop right there.

Why would it plague you for the rest of your life? If you have no intention of doing anything about it, then it's pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy. If, on the other hand, you want to do something about it, then there's got to be something that works. Quite what I do not know, but I'm sure someone here will have some ideas.

[bluewind95]

Herpestidae's Three T's of Flirting:
*snip*

You would terrify me. Horribly.

[John Cribati]

You would terrify me. Horribly.

... I guess I also forgot to mention that this is how it works with people I know. I don't go on flirting with complete strangers. Does that make you feel better?

[bluewind95]

... I guess I also forgot to mention that this is how it works with people I know. I don't go on flirting with complete strangers. Does that make you feel better?

Actually... yes.

To be fair, I'm a really, really shy person, so very direct flirting like that would be a great way to terrify me.

[golentan]

My advice for learning how to flirt is "watch other people do it." Bars are a good place. Friendly get togethers. You can watch tv or movies that has flirting. I learned my favorite style of flirting from Spice and Wolf: they seriously managed to weaponize teasing and sexual tension.

[Mando Knight]

My advice for learning how to flirt is "watch other people do it." Bars are a good place. Friendly get togethers. You can watch tv or movies that has flirting. I learned my favorite style of flirting from Spice and Wolf: they seriously managed to weaponize teasing and sexual tension.

I misread that as Worf. Do not take dating advice from a Klingon. Or, at least, don't follow the Klingon women's example.

[rogueboy]

Ok, for anyone who still remembers my posts from a couple weeks ago about the email, her being really busy, and all that, I have a conclusion to that, even if any potential awkwardness hasn't hit yet: she turned me down, giving "I won't date a non-Christian" as the reason (she knows that I'm not religious). There's a line in her reply, however, that makes me think she values our friendship as much as I do, which I take for a good sign towards minimal awkwardness, at least.

Welp, at least there's closure on that now. I'm sad (obviously), but I expect I'll be OK fairly soon.

And now, back to our... whatever this is, because I'm pretty sure it isn't "regularly scheduled" or any kind of program.

[Stardrake]

In response to the request for advice: This site is probably much better than anything I can give. I'd stumbled onto enough of the same realisations through my own mistakes and reflections before coming across it to say that it rings true, but the author certainly knows his stuff a lot better than I do (although there are some things I disagree with - the necessity of taking what he calls the 'nuclear option' being one of them). One of the pluses is that he doesn't show any of the cynicism or pandering towards bitterness that Reluctance mentions - in fact, he shows quite a bit of contempt towards them and generally has the attitude that while their techniques can be useful in picking up for casual sex, they're not likely to lead to a healthy relationship.

Of course, that could just be ragging on the competition, but having seen (and cringed at) what he's referring to, I'm inclined to agree.

Heliomance: That sounds to me like you've just had a spot of bad luck there - there's no chemistry on her side, and if you hit it off well initially and then she put as much thought into it as it sounds, it's unlikely that she's mistaken or that it's going to change any time soon. That's not to say it never will - platonic relationships have grown into something else before - but the best thing for you to do right now is probably to do your best to put down the torch and move on.

Easier said than done, I know. In the meantime, if you're not doing anything with her you wouldn't do without the torch, I don't see any problem with continuing to be a good friend. Just make sure that you're convinced it is a healthy relationship for both of you - and if at any point you think it isn't, it might be time to talk to one of your mutual (probably preferably female) friends, explain the situation (if they don't already know it) and make sure they'll be able to step in and provide support to her while you take a break from the situation.

[Ancano]

Stop right there.

Why would it plague you for the rest of your life? If you have no intention of doing anything about it, then it's pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy. If, on the other hand, you want to do something about it, then there's got to be something that works. Quite what I do not know, but I'm sure someone here will have some ideas.

I've been trying to like myself for years and it just hasn't been working, and I see no reason why that would suddenly change. Quite simply, there is nothing remarkable about me worth liking. I have zero talent at pretty much everything and no good qualities. Anything I can do, most others can do better.

I'm not going to be able to suddenly start liking myself, so I thought it might be a wise idea to assume I couldn't fix the problem and try to work around it.

[term1nally s1ck]

This is an issue that, by forum rules, we cannot help you with. You would be best served seeking professional help, as you may well be suffering from depression.

You may be able to sustain a relationship despite that, but it would be immensely difficult. I know I couldn't manage to do it.

[rogueboy]

This is an issue that, by forum rules, we cannot help you with. You would be best served seeking professional help, as you may well be suffering from depression.

Putting this here, because 1) it's true, and 2) I'm going to say something, but I'm assuming that this (the depression, or any medical/clinical issue) is NOT the case.

Quite simply, there is nothing remarkable about me worth liking. I have zero talent at pretty much everything and no good qualities. Anything I can do, most others can do better.

Assuming what I said above (no depression issues or other medical/clinical things that are out of our ability to discuss here) is true: The last sentence of yours that I quoted? Yeah, that's always going to be true. Unless you're the absolute pinnacle of the human mind (hint: no one here, at the very least, is), there's always someone who knows more than you, or is better than you. Examples are prevalent, but I'll give an obvious one: athletes. I challenge you to name the greatest professional athlete who is currently active. Can't be done. First of all, even if we limit it to a single sport/activity, there are very few that have any definitive measure of "best". Secondly, different types of physical ability lend themselves to different sports, so you're comparing apples to oranges in almost every case. Obvious example is obvious, but it's still there.

As to the first 2 sentences? There doesn't need to be anything remarkable about you for there to be something likeable about you. (To be clear: I'm not discussing whether individual traits are likeable/loveable here, and I'm not discussing anything about romantic like/love; I'm focusing on the platonic like/love issues, as having good friends makes everything easier). I'm not sure I believe that you have no good qualities; they may not be the most obvious, but everyone has something good. It may or may not outweigh the bad, to everyone, but not everyone needs to like you, or being around you for you to be a good person. I know I've got people who annoy me to no end, and I'm sure there are people who don't like being around me. I just also have friends who I enjoy hanging out with, and who enjoy hanging around with me.

My basic point: make sure you have good friends around you (I don't remember this being addressed, in either direction, so I'm not sure if it's a relevant issue for you) before you try to foster a romantic relationship (either with a friend or with a stranger, as per personal/mutual/whatever preference).

Again, if there is a depression issue, that's something we can't address here (by board rules and personal ability), and that's likely to prevent anything I just said from making sense. If that's the case, you may want to look into professional help.

[Serpentine]

You may be able to find a relationship, but I expect it is unlikely to be a healthy one.
Have you been receiving professional help on this issue?

[Reluctance]

Ancano: Given things you've said before, have you been living at home through your whole college career? I have a hunch I'm like 80% confident in. Looking for more evidence to confirm/deny it.

Also, since you've mentioned a shrink (at least in context of meds), how long and how often are your sessions? Specifically, your posting here strongly implies you're either not able to talk it over with a professional often enough, or that you don't believe it's a safe space. Especially the last completely undermines the point of therapy, and means you should see what options are available if you want to look for a new one.

[Heliomance]

Heliomance: That sounds to me like you've just had a spot of bad luck there - there's no chemistry on her side, and if you hit it off well initially and then she put as much thought into it as it sounds, it's unlikely that she's mistaken or that it's going to change any time soon. That's not to say it never will - platonic relationships have grown into something else before - but the best thing for you to do right now is probably to do your best to put down the torch and move on.

Easier said than done, I know. In the meantime, if you're not doing anything with her you wouldn't do without the torch, I don't see any problem with continuing to be a good friend. Just make sure that you're convinced it is a healthy relationship for both of you - and if at any point you think it isn't, it might be time to talk to one of your mutual (probably preferably female) friends, explain the situation (if they don't already know it) and make sure they'll be able to step in and provide support to her while you take a break from the situation.

The weird thing is, we did have chemistry. When we first met, the chemistry was so strong that everyone pretty much assumed it was a foregone conclusion that we would end up together. Then she gave me the "just a friend" line. *shrug*

As regards putting down the torch: I did meet a rather lovely young lady today who I hope to get to know better. It's obviously far too early to know if anything may come of it - or even if I'll develop any feelings on that front - but first impressions were favourable.

[Marillion]

In response to the request for advice: This site is probably much better than anything I can give.

Many thanks to you for this link. I am currently on an archive binge, as many of the articles give form to things I'd been considering myself, and others are just plain neat.

[term1nally s1ck]

The weird thing is, we did have chemistry. When we first met, the chemistry was so strong that everyone pretty much assumed it was a foregone conclusion that we would end up together. Then she gave me the "just a friend" line. *shrug*

I've actually seen this happen more than a few times this past year. It seems like the 'just a friend' line is sometimes used by women who felt they went too far too fast, both to reset things again, and to challenge you to not immediately back down.

The best way to respond is to behave almost exactly the same way as you did last time around, and see if she does the same. If she doesn't respond to any of your advances this time around, she meant it literally. If she does...then not so much.