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2012-01-20, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Sounds good to me, but then I'm not a contestant OR a judge
Awesome fremetar by wxdruid.
From the discomfort of truth there is only one refuge and that is ignorance. I do not need to be comfortable, and I will not take refuge. I demand to *know*.
So I guess I have an internets? | And a trophy. | And a music cookie (whatever that is).
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2012-01-20, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
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Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2012-01-20, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
I made some token noises about judging, but I just can't look this prestige class in the face any longer.
I think we can declare the winner of this challenge to be Amphetryon.Iron Chef Award!
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2012-01-20, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Contestant here, I'm eager to move on to the next ingredient.
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2012-01-20, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Neither judge nor contestant, though I tried, and am willing for the next one, but also hoping someone judges the Dessert round IV, which is delayed until I get even a single judge, as the clause in the judging section states. If the next round (of the main competition) makes it to the judging period before I get a judge, though, I'll move on.
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2012-01-20, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
To stir up discussion a bit, I'll let folks know that the next SI also existed in 3.0.
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2012-01-20, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
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2012-01-20, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
My guess is Duelist. It got worse from 3.0 to 3.5, and wasn't that great to begin with. It's not terrible in 3.5, but it is pretty boring and requires some crap feats to get into.
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2012-01-20, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Wasn't Dragon Disciple in both? And dragons are made out of meat... *keeps hoping for dragon disciple*
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2012-01-20, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
I don't think so, not right after another elemental based prc
well, while ICs are many things, they are not usually boring, so I don't think duelist. and I think Amph said it was from one of the completes, which duelist isn't.
acolyte of the skin existed in 3.0! since they're alphabetical, it's the first one in tome and blood with a kickin' picture. hooray!I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
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2012-01-20, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
It's Bladesinger, obviously.
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2012-01-20, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
by that criterion, all classes are fair game. most PCs are made out of meat (our warforged friends excepted) so that doesn't narrow it down much.
please don't make it dragon disciple. that is a terrible class (as in it's boring, not that it lacks in mechanical power) I don't think that's what it's going to be thoughI've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
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2012-01-20, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
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2012-01-20, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
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2012-01-21, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
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2012-01-21, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Dex
SpoilerRegarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
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Check out the Versatile Domain Generalist.
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2012-01-21, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Old Man Winter
SpoilerOriginality: 2.6 I expected the Old Man Winter/Jack Frost/Winter Personified theme (-.25). I liked the way you wove the story into the Forgotten Realms creatively, but it is FR. No points either way there. You, however, took the typical expected FR race and regional feats (-.15). Since Psion/Wilder is the only really reliable way into the class at a decent level without shenanigans, nothing here either.
Power: 3.3 Your power and feat selection are very synergistic (+.25) to make you a strong grappler (+.5), but that's about all you can do (-.2). Also, your Cryokineticist levels come online too late for most of its abilities to be very useful. (-.25)
Elegance: 3.5 Your backstory is nice and of a very good length, going far to explain every part of your build selection (+.5). You explain everything well and offer tips and tricks to make it easier to understand and play (+.25). However, you do not qualify for Improved Grapple, which is pretty key to your build's flavor if not a huge power boost (-.25).
Secret Ingredient: 2.25 I fail to see how Cryokineticist adds anything meaningful to your build. The Frozen Fist ability doesn't add more than minor damage, and the other abilities of the class are largely ignored in the build (-1). However, you do touch on the other abilities in your explanation, and you do manage a decent save on your Bone Chill ability (+.25). Overall, I think Cryokinetcist offers you nothing after 2nd level, and you would have been better off with a different PrC or sticking with wilder.
Total: 11.65
Calipso the IcicleSpoilerOriginality: 3.4 Believe it or not, I was expecting a pixie because of Carnivore's fairly well known (and really old) pixie build for Pyrokineticist. (-.1) That said, you went a completely different way that I expected, focusing on your bow and ranged attacks (+.5). I do like the character idea, but I don't see much else to comment on either way.
Power: 3.05 I'm going to have to take some points away on this one. I'm not sure why you selected the concealing amorpha power, as the pixie has greater invisibility as a special quality already (-.1). However, you're a pixie (+.15) Your powers don't really get high enough to do much thanks to the LA. Fortunately, you don't rely on your powers for most of your strength, and the other powers you do choose are good for the levels you have available (+.2). Also, your Cryokineticist levels come online too late for most of its abilities to be very useful (-.2).
Elegance: 2.9 You were creative in trying to get around the limitations on weapon afrost, and I respect that, but the text of the weapon unfortunately blocks that. I have to give you a slight penalty, but I admire the creativity and lateral thinking (-.1). Taking Ability Focus for an ability you don't yet have would never work in my games (-.5). The build, however, is simple and clean, giving you a little boost (+.25).
The story was interesting, if rather short, and I really was not expecting an emo pixie, but it could have been much more robust and benefited from spell check (+.25).
Secret Ingredient: 0.85 You immediately lose points here for not qualifying for Cryokineticist (-2). It comes online late, and your build heavily relies on an ability you don't get until 20th level, though you do start optimizing for it earlier (-.25). You do try to make use of its features, but I don't really see how it adds anything to your build. (+.1)
Total: 10.2
The AntipodeSpoilerI have to be honest here. Except for the first five levels, this is exactly the class build I was working on before I got distracted, right down to the number of Cryo and Pyro levels. Freaky.
Originality: 3.5 I really liked your story and short poem, even if both were very short. They do give a reason for the choices you make on the build. I was honestly disappointed that you chose to explain the character's story rather than to tell it. As I said, I was doing a near identical build, but I was doing it because I didn't expect to see it. No points either way on that. Feytouched and Paladin were completely unexpected, and the variant Paladin with inspire courage fits perfectly with a fey (+.5).
Power: 3.2 You pull together both fire and ice to overcome the limitations of both by simply switching to the other when advantageous (+.25) Your Intimidation focus isn't great but does add some other versatility, and your focus on using whips and being able to ignore the feat requirement on them is nice. I've seen what that can do, and it's much stronger than many people realize (+.2). The first weakness I spotted on the build is that it heavily relies on move actions to power its abilities, but you try to mitigate that with a limited use item and your reach and range is enough that you don't have to move too often (-.2). The low power points gives you just enough to play with but not enough to last through more than one or two encounters a day (-.25) Your mantle and power selections are good, and the bonuses you get from Paladin gives you a strong Charisma synergy with Cryo/Pyro, making your character almost completely SAD (+.2). Delving into this build ended up being much stronger than I expected at first glance.
Elegance: 3.3 I have to hit you here for somehow giving Cryokineticist full BAB in your table (-.3). I also have to give you a bonus for sticking with your theme all the way through level 20 and selecting options at every level to further that theme. Everything you selected (feats, skills, class levels, weapons) was along a unified theme that you pulled and very clean (+.75). I'm also going to give you another little bit for your explanations, formatting, links to web articles, and just generally making everything easy to read and find (+.1). I'm going to give a slight penalty for the cheesy Ardent entry (-.25).
As I said earlier, this is eerily similar to the build I was doing before getting distracted, but I would not have stuck with the theme as well as you did.
Secret Ingredient: 3.7 You failed to go full Cryokineticist, and I decided I would dock 1/10 point for each missing level (-.1). You did, however, take it at the earliest possible level, it works well with your build, not easy with this class, and it's the main focus of your build (+1). Unfortunately, it shares a nearly equally place in the build with Pyromancer (-.2).
Total: 13.7
SGACSPDSpoilerOriginality: 3.75 As much as I liked the build, I couldn't get past the idea that he's just a fancy pro wrestler, especially with the luchador picture. I kept picturing him in the ring slamming people into the ropes and have a hard time taking him seriously. Despite my distaste towards it, I didn't expect to see pro wrestling in D&D (+.5). I also didn't expect a shocktrooper or a build like this at all (+.25). I would add a penalty for the cheesy Ardent entry here, but I take points off for it further down.
Power: 3.8 You bull rush things fairly well, even if you aren't the most optimized for it. You also are able to create your own walls where they are most advantageous for you and (maybe) reshape them at higher levels, allowing you to better utilize dungeoncrasher. (+.5) You also manage to deal with flying enemies and incorporeal ones, a difficult feat for bull rushers (+.5). Unfortunately, like all one trick ponies, you only have one real trick. You do throw in a little bit of tripping and some ardent levels, but that's not much variation. Despite being able to fly, if the opponents are too far from the ground, your dungeoncrashing is useless, killing your trick (-.15). You manage to deal more damage than I thought I would see in this competition, gaining a little bit (+.2), but you don't really deal all that much damage with the one trick you do have (-.25). I won't dock you for it, but taking 1 round per 10 cubic feet of ice sounds like by the time you get the wall shaped like you need it, the enemy will have already moved, making it less useful in actual combat.
Elegance: 2.45 I think your background and story are too short to really present this well, and you don't present much of the build (-.25), but you do lay things out well where you do and explain the "cool factor" well (+.2). My real problem is with mantle substitution. There are alternate rules for that, but it's specifically by DM fiat. Relying on the DM to let you do something not specifically spelled out is uncertain at best (-.5) You also don't mention any way of qualifying for the regional feat you take (-.25). Being able to craft your own palace from ice, however, is great (+.25). I have some problems with the mechanics, but you do manage to be cool enough to mostly salvage that.
Secret Ingredient: 3.05 I feel like you used Cryokineticist well and made a good case for it in your submission (+.25); however, I also feel like it's more of a side dish than the main course. It supplements your build but isn't a focus of it (-.2). You found innovative uses for several of the abilities, like frozen fist, earning a bit, but you also completely ignored several abilities, losing a bit (0).
Total: 13.05
Bjorn DoragoniruSpoilerOriginality: 3.3 Incarnum and Soul Manifester were unexpected (+.5). You went with Forgotten Realms but didn't really do anything original with it (-.2).
Power: 4.15 With 3 levels of Ardent, 9 levels of Soul Manifester, and Practiced Manifester, your manifester level is 16. It's only 17 with an item. After checking the list, that doesn't make any of your power selections invalid, but it's still worth noting. That said, high level Ardent backed up with soulmelds is quite powerful, though you dropped the capstone of soul manifester. You also make use of the many psionics boosting effects of soulmelds and make very good selections on powers and melds (+1.5). Considering your focus on psionics, you have rather low PP, and you skipped out on the most obvious Incarnum based PP recharge method (-.25). You have a large number of tricks, but none of them are particularly devastating, and you don't exactly excel in any of them (-.1).
Elegance: 2.45 As mentioned earlier, I'm giving a slight deduction for cheesy Ardent entry (-.25). You managed the fire and ice aspect by using the Iceman (from X-Men) answer of thermodynamics. While not original, I'll give it a few points for being a good way of explaining it (+.15). I'm also docking points, because you only present one level of the build, 20th, and the competition requested at least four (-.3). Your build hits its power cap at 17th level only because of Practiced Manifester and the ioun stone, otherwise, it caps out at 15th and goes downhill from there rather than showing a nice, steady progression (-.2). Your character spends his whole life focusing fire then suddenly switches to ice on the flimsiest of excuses (-.1). Your backstory saves you a few points though, as it is pretty solid and does work all of your abilities into it. Painting your skin blue also helped with the bit that was really bugging me about picking a brown skinned ethnicity from FR and using a picture of a pale blue man (+.15).
Secret Ingredient: 0.6 As I stated earlier, -1/10 point for every level of Cryokineticist skipped (-.5). You do use one power to enhance your Cryo powers (+.1), but you're not a Cryokineticist. It's like you had the build idea and then tried to squeeze the PrC in at the end due to the contest requirement of having it. It adds nothing to your build and is actually detrimental. I docked points on the last build I reviewed for the secret ingredient being only a side dish, but you don't even reach that with it. The meal was finished, then it was slapped on the plate without consideration or attempt at presentation. It's like you're cleaning out the leftovers from your freezer and hoping we'll swallow it with the rest (-2).
Total: 10.5
I give my honorable mention to Calipso the Icicle. I had to rate it lowest of the five, but I really liked the mental image it gave it and wish I could have scored it higher.
Some notes on judgingSpoilerI find it odd that points get docked for Originality just because someone has done something similar in a past IC that the person may not have read or even be aware of. I also find it odd that the submissions are entirely anonymous and confidential until he reveal but points get docked if two people use something similar. I tried my best to judge each entry individually and based my scoring on what I expected from this class and what I thought would happen rather than on what other submissions have done in this or other Iron Chef competitions.
While I did read the other judges' critiques, I gave it a few days to look up the parts of the builds myself and evaluate them on my own, hopefully uninfluenced. I wrote my responses without referencing the other judges and tried to be objective on all builds.
I started at 3 points in each field and modified from there.Last edited by Rizban; 2012-01-21 at 05:40 AM.
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2012-01-21, 05:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
I'd personally like to see Master Specialist. It's from the Completes, and while it is powerful (As any Wizard full-casting PrC will be) there's so many ways you can go with it. It's like having Brandy as the secret ingredient.
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2012-01-21, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Eh, I'd prefer something that doesn't have lots of options to see what people can do with it. Something as limited as the one from this round though... yeah... Let's not do that again.
Quod tibi vis fieri, facias.Spoiler: Links to my content threadsAldhaven - May 27, 2010 and ongoing.
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2012-01-21, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
I'd like low-op, but with options. I thought Animal Lord and Mythic Exemplar (rounds IX and X, respectively) were perfect examples of this. Wide variety in builds, but all using a less-than-optimal PrC.
Tallies After Five Judges...I think
{table=head]Entry|Medal/Place|Total|Average*
Antipode|GOLD|69.2|3.46
Old Man Winter|Silver|63.4|3.17
SGACSPD|Bronze|63.05|3.15
Bjorn|Fourth|60|3
Calipso|Fifth|52.2|2.61[/table]
Rizban, I have to congratulate you for being the first judge to operate outside of the traditional quarter-point scale.
*Rounded to two decimal places.
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2012-01-21, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Well, there were things I thought didn't warrant a full quarter point but should still earn or lose small amounts... And, honestly, I knew I was going to be harsh and wanted to give people as many points as I could. I figured people would be happier losing .1 or .2 points than .25 for each minor issue I found.
You forgot to round SGACSPD. Actually, you didn't round any of those numbers. They actually do average out to those numbers.Last edited by Rizban; 2012-01-21 at 03:27 PM.
Quod tibi vis fieri, facias.Spoiler: Links to my content threadsAldhaven - May 27, 2010 and ongoing.
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2012-01-21, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
I'm ready to end it and move on whenever...
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2012-01-21, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-21, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Per popular request - and due to amazing efficiency from the judges - it's time for the reveal! All contestants did well with a truly challenging ingredient, and deserve praise.
In 1st place - Antipode: Jeriah
In 2nd place - Old Man Winter: Gotterdammerung
In 3rd place - SGACSPD: The Gilded Duke
In 4th place - Bjorn: Gotterdammerung
In 5th place - Calipso: Garwain (Honorable Mention winner)
New contest will be up shortly.Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-01-21 at 08:48 PM.
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2012-01-21, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Whoa... I actually won my first Iron Chef challenge. I'm honestly pretty shocked.
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2012-01-21, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Congrats! In fact, congrats to all contestants for trying to make something with what I might consider to be the most awkward special ingredient so far...
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2012-01-21, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Congrats to the winners and I am also hoping for Bloodhound which I do like as a class.
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No, none of us were altering the unimutable laws of physics. That would be wrong.
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2012-01-21, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
My homegame has houseruled the removal of the prerequisites for improved grapple. I have been playing under these rules for like 6 years or so. So that's why I forgot about the odd dex and improved unarmed strike prerequs. It was a mistake and I am fine with the consequences. I just wanted to explain why it happened.
Also, I think the judges shoehorned him into being "just a grappler". Grappling was intended to just be something he could do. Improved grapple wasn't that important to the build. I took Jotunbrud for the story. It gave him grappling potential. So I considered adding things that synergized with grappling. But I made sure to spend character resources on his melee potential and gave real focus to his defenses. I ran several matches of him versus the other contestants and it was always his defenses that caused him to beat all other contestants. If he truly was "just a grappler" he would not of been able to beat all the other entries, including my own other entry Bjorn who got some of the highest power scores.
I was also surprised at the low use of SI scores on Wulfgrad. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to work in every ability of the SI into the tactics, mechanics, and/or background story of the character. Then spent more time listing it out so the judges could easily read it. Then was told I didn't use the SI at all. In some cases, Wulfgrad actually scored the same SI score as Bjorn, who only used 5 lvls of the SI and only had roleplay justification for the SI. I apparently didn't and still don't understand what the judges wanted from this category. But it seemed to me like the general hate of the SI bled over into the scoring of this category.
It was a little weird to get docked points in originality for "Old Man Winter." This phrase had no actual ties to the russian folklore. The contestants name was Wulfgrad King of Bones. The people of Icewind Dale allowed rumors and superstition to elevate him into legend. I don't really see how this dynamic is "unoriginal".
In the future, it would be nice if judges would list out there hang-ups. It would be nice to know before hand that all humans are unoriginal and all characters in Forgotten Realms are unoriginal.
I'm new to this contest, and I am mainly making writing this out of an effort to learn. There were some things about this round that I just didn't understand. They bugged me a lot. If my comments are stepping over a line, I am sorry, it was not my intent to criticize. I just want to better understand the process so I can compete more effectively in the coming rounds.
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2012-01-21, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Yikes. I'd recommend scrubbing that post; I know you're just trying to learn for future rounds, but it came across a mite bitter and defensive. Perhaps that conversation is better had via PM.
In other news, the new round has been posted. The SI isn't Acolyte of the Skin or Bloodhound. No, no, it's a bit harri--er, hairier than that.
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2012-01-21, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII
Eh, missing prerequisites happens. I forgot about the psicraft requirement, and honestly by the end of the build I had completely forgot that wall of ice requires giving up psionic focus. As far as narrow focus, I had designed whatever my entries name was as a Bull Rusher Tripper Full Attack Shock Trooper, but I only sold the Bull rush bit, so that's what he was judged on. To be honest, it was such a struggle to get this one done, I didn't spend much time polishing it. I think I'm going to have a lot more fun with consecrated harrier.
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