Infiltration of the Resistance and RC's plan

[Cronos988]

So, a some speculation already came up in the discussion thread but I think the issue deserves it's own speculation thread.

How exactly did Redcloak know about the Resistance's hideout? Why did he come alone? And did he know about the Phylacetry?

I am guessing that RC found the spy the Resistance had planted to find out about the phylacetry. Either he took her out and questioned her and let an imposter file her reports, or he just kept tabs on her. Anyway he must have found out about the resistance headquarters that way.

Then, when the message from the search team comes in, RC knows that they are going to divert their high level characters to the ambush. Since the Resistance cave is only weakly defended, 2 Horned devils with a high level cleric can easily sort out 3 mid level elves and a bunch of low level soldiers, clerics and slaves. All the high level fighters were gone, so it makes perfect sense for RC to crush the Resistance.

But usually, he would have taken at least some Goblin backup with him. There were mostly low level characters in that cave, why not take some Goblins to round up the slaves? I think he does not want Xykon to know he has taken out the Resistance.

Xykon knows (or will know) that the Phylacetry has been found. However, the search team will be found dead, and a speak with dead will reveal that the Elven insurgents have it now. By killing the Resistance on his own, RC can take the Phylacetry and have Xykon and everyone else believe that it is still in the hands of the Resistance. Why else would he be in the cave alone?

He cannot have "just discovered" the cave, because his approach to it clearly is planned. He obviously knew the strength of the Resistance and that he could kill them on his own. He is not the type to rush into an encounter with insufficient knowledge about his foe. If he did not know the Resistance had (or would) ambushed the search team, he would clearly have attacked the Resistance with a full force of Hobgoblins, to make sure no one escapes. Yet he only uses a small force of summons and deliberately left the entraces open to allow the ambush team to enter the base. All of this must have been carefully planned, or else the Ambush team would have seen signs of the attack.

The only problem is that I can't figure out any motivation to do so. If Xykon learns that his Phylacetry was stolen, he will be pissed and like to vent his rage on any Hobgoblin in sight. He might still go for the gate, but he might also try to track down the elves, thereby delaying the original plan. But if RC just gives the Phylacetry back to Xykon, then why allow the search team to be ambushed in the first place? He could have attacked the resistance at any time and with a much bigger force, yet he chose to travel to the cave alone, only with summons. You could argue that it is a tactically sound decision to attack the cave while the bulk of high level characters are away, but it would make even more sense to attack the highl level characters as the prepare or conduct the ambush. That way, RC can make sure no-one gets away with the Phylacetry. The current setup is a much bigger risk, as it relies on the ambush team remaining ignorant of what happens at the base. One of the clerics or the caster might have had sending scrolls.

Maybe it's just storytelling, but the way this is set up would just make an awesome way to keep Xykon ignorant of who really has his bauble. The Phylacetry is conceivably the biggest bargaining chip RC has against Xykon, but how does he think to use it?

So, discuss, I guess :)

[Jaros]

I doubt he's planning on using his phylactery as a bargaining chip. Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual, and their alliance could deteriorate pretty darn quickly if he tries something like that.

And as for him finding them, I'd actually really like it if it was one big, well-timed coincidence, but maybe that's just me (not that I wouldn't like the alternative)

[Autolykos]

I doubt he's planning on using his phylactery as a bargaining chip. Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual, and their alliance could deteriorate pretty darn quickly if he tries something like that.

You mean, like he already did (or at least tried to) - see SoD.

[tcrudisi]

It's not in RC's best interest to attack during the ambush because then there would be witnesses. I believe the fact that he attacked the Resistance on his own demonstrates that he doesn't want anyone to know that he has the phylactery.

Why? Well, if no one knows that he has it, then he has power over Xykon. It's that simple, really. Xykon is dangerous and more powerful than RC. RC needs every edge he can have over him. RC may not like the fact that Xykon has a very good chance of taking it out on some goblins, but it's for the betterment of his kingdom that he has some control over Xykon. After all, his end game is the gate -- that's his most important mission, so that's the one that he will do his best to succeed at.

[Manga Shoggoth]

It's not in RC's best interest to attack during the ambush because then there would be witnesses. I believe the fact that he attacked the Resistance on his own demonstrates that he doesn't want anyone to know that he has the phylactery.

There are already witnesses. All the goblins [within sight and sound] that saw him pick up the phylactery. Word might still get back to Xykon.

[Jaros]

There are already witnesses. All the goblins [within sight and sound] that saw him pick up the phylactery. Word might still get back to Xykon.

They all died (or the number shown in the next comic was about the same), but there;s still those at the tower that know. This could be kind of a wanting-to-do-this-on--my-own-to-assert-my-strength kinda thing.

[Cronos988]

They all died (or the number shown in the next comic was about the same), but there;s still those at the tower that know. This could be kind of a wanting-to-do-this-on--my-own-to-assert-my-strength kinda thing.

Yet those at the tower only know that the phylactery was found by a search team. They don't know about the ambush, and we don't know if they know anything about RCs actions to get it back. If RC did not inform them, no-one save for him knows where the phylactery is.

It might be an affimration of his worth towards Xykon if he singelhandedly gets back the Phylacetry. But then would Xykon really care how many minions he employed? It was RCs task to retreive it at all costs, Xykon won't promote him for fixing something he blames RC for in the first place.

[eulmanis12]

What would Redcloak be promoted to anyway? He is already the high priest of the dark one, and Xycon's 2iC (2nd in Command).

[Dark Matter]

You're assuming RC's second line guys aren't involved, that's yet to be shown. He might just have a strong reserve ready to counter whatever move the Resistance makes.

Or He might also want to destroy the phylactery to take down Xykon a notch.

Or he might want to be the one to personally recover it so that maybe Xykon will let him regen his other eye.

[Belril Duskwalk]

You mean, like he already did (or at least tried to) - see SoD.

I think Xykon's response in the SoD makes it unlikely Redcloak would try to use the phylactery against Xykon again unless Redcloak gets a serious back-bone transplant. While that is always possible Redcloak's last appearance showed him still being firmly (if begrudgingly) stuck underneath Xykon's bony thumb.

I seriously doubt he knew about the team peregrine ambush. If he did, I think he would have been there. He knows there are elven insurgents and as such he probably suspects the presence of a wizard. If that wizard has Teleport (which she did, though Redcloak wouldn't know but might suspect) then the phylactery might never get to Resistance HQ, they might just grab the phylactery and teleport out. Now clearly that didn't happen because the wizard stayed home, but I doubt Redcloak knew the wizard would be home.

I suspect his use of Summoned devils and an elemental are either a means of reducing the risk of goblin casualties or possibly a way of asserting his own strength and independence after months of Xykon forcing Redcloak to obey. And really, he wasn't exactly putting himself at much risk. Judging by the summonings present he likely used less than a half dozen spells, and he seems to have wiped out the Resistance and half of Team Peregrine without so much as a scratch on him. I doubt the other half of Team Peregrine and a few more Azurites being present would have done more than inconvenience him for a few more rounds.

[Cronos988]

I think Xykon's response in the SoD makes it unlikely Redcloak would try to use the phylactery against Xykon again unless Redcloak gets a serious back-bone transplant. While that is always possible Redcloak's last appearance showed him still being firmly (if begrudgingly) stuck underneath Xykon's bony thumb.

I seriously doubt he knew about the team peregrine ambush. If he did, I think he would have been there. He knows there are elven insurgents and as such he probably suspects the presence of a wizard. If that wizard has Teleport (which she did, though Redcloak wouldn't know but might suspect) then the phylactery might never get to Resistance HQ, they might just grab the phylactery and teleport out. Now clearly that didn't happen because the wizard stayed home, but I doubt Redcloak knew the wizard would be home.

I suspect his use of Summoned devils and an elemental are either a means of reducing the risk of goblin casualties or possibly a way of asserting his own strength and independence after months of Xykon forcing Redcloak to obey. And really, he wasn't exactly putting himself at much risk. Judging by the summonings present he likely used less than a half dozen spells, and he seems to have wiped out the Resistance and half of Team Peregrine without so much as a scratch on him. I doubt the other half of Team Peregrine and a few more Azurites being present would have done more than inconvenience him for a few more rounds.

Not defeat him perhaps, but it stands to reason that there was a contingency plan in case the resistance was attacked, and Team Peregrine together with the few higher-level Azurites might have delayed RC just enough to get at least parts of the resistance safely out.

Also note that RC is making a "Display": the corpses are aligned, and one of the Devils holds the caster up for the newcomers to see. So he knew part of the resistance was out, and it seems reasonable to assume that he also knows he got their only caster able to teleport. Now he might have realized that during the attack, but it seems likely that RC would keep tabs on the resistance for a while before attacking. This is just his style. He is a careful planner, he would not rush in on his own without knowing the enemies' strength.

But I will grant you that none of this means he knew the ambush team has the Phylactery. Maybe RC just waited for a good moment to attack, and it is coincidence that this happens to be the moment the resistance acquires the phylactery.

[Vahir]

People who are saying that he would use it that blackmail Xykon, that's not possible.

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He killed his own brother so that Xykon, and by extension the plan, would stay alive- He knows that Xykon wouldn't take a blackmail like that seriously.

I mean, RC had the phylactery with him for years, but he never made a motion against Xykon, why would he do it now?

[Belril Duskwalk]

*Stuff*

Dude! Spoilers!

[DrBurr]

People who are saying that he would use it that blackmail Xykon, that's not possible.

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He killed his own brother so that Xykon, and by extension the plan, would stay alive- He knows that Xykon wouldn't take a blackmail like that seriously.

I mean, RC had the phylactery with him for years, but he never made a motion against Xykon, why would he do it now?

More SoD spoilers

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Well RC and his brother did try and use it as a bargaining chip right after Xykon became a lich only for him to outsmart them by figuring out the flaw of their plan, which was neither of them could kill Xykon

Hmm I'm sure the next strip will outline RC's slaughter of the resistance and if he knows about the phylactery being found or not. But I'm going to go with Cronos and believe RC is just choose the right time to attack

[eras10]

I'm in the camp that something is definitely up with Redcloak not bringing Hobgoblins. I don't think there's a force of Hobgoblins waiting. I think Redcloak may want to re-establish control of Xykon's phylactery personally.

The reason is that this is very inconsistent with Redcloak's past behavior. Redcloak may care about hobgoblins in general and may not kill them for his own amusement, but he had no hesitation about ordering hobgoblins to try to sink the last boat in War and XPs, or using them to attack Azure City in the first place. He's not a pacifist, and he's not casualty-shy.

There are two plausible ideas:

#1. He was in too much of a rush, because he found out in the nick of time and the hobgoblins were too slow - or because he found out earlier, but was still plannning when this event forced his hand.

#2. He plans to screw Xykon by deceiving him about the phylactery. Xykon isn't stupid, but keeping secrets from him is easier than whipping him in combat.

Actually, #3 - both of the above, are also possible. Maybe Redcloak rushed over because of #1 but will be tempted by #2.

I think the evidence is good that letting Team Pergerine get *anywhere near the phylactery was a HUGE risk that Redcloak wouldn't have taken voluntarily, which is evidence for #1. But #3 is also plausible.

Think of it this way. You've discovered the Resistance spy. But you can't just do whatever you want. If you kill him, they find out. If you mess with his mind, maybe they can tell his personality has changed. You don't just want to kill the spy, you want him to reveal the rest of the Resistance. Where they are, their strengths and weaknesses, everything. Maybe you even know where their home base is, but not their other bases.

But then they find out about the amulet. You're not in a position to stop the capture - they just beat you to the scene (redcloak can't actually teleport, and maybe he doesn't want Tsukiko in on this), so the next best move is to hit the base ASAP. You have no choice but to attack immediately. I don't think that Redcloak's timing is a coincidence - the timing was clearly forced by the discovery of the phylactery. You may have been planning a counterstroke, but once the stuff hits the fan and the resistance gets their hands on the prize, you have no choice but to launch it immediately.

If Redcloak screwed up again by letting the Resistance teleport out with Xykon's bauble, there's no telling what Xykon might do in revenge.

The interesting question will be if Redcloak uses this opportunity to grow a spine and blackmail Xykon outright. not decieve him that the elves still have it - that only delays the quest for the next gate. In SoD... Xykon really acted like he didn't care about the phylactery, but recent events have revealed that not to be true. Furthermore, Redcloak has more to lose now, with Gobbotopia, and Xykon is growing steadily more abusive. Redcloak may even know about Xykon's plans to replace him with Tsuikko.

I don't think Redcloak will fake like the elves really got away with it, but he might hide it somewhere and say to Xykon - this is my insurance policy against you again. If you're thinking of replacing me, your phylactery will suffer. Xykon essentially bluffed him last time. Redcloak has leverage if he controls that thing.

Xykon sucks at finding things. Given how the story is going, this might be the source of the final Xykon-Redcloak split, which has frankly been coming in the wind at some point.

Maybe Redcloak will decide not to risk it, and hand it back over. But, I'm pretty sure:

#1. No hobgoblins is significant.

#2. For a variety of reasons, Redcloak didn't use the phylactery finding as bait on purpose. If the elves really have the phylactery, redcloak has no leverage. He's just an incompetent underling who will pay a severe price for it.

[Ancalagon]

In SoD... Xykon really acted like he didn't care about the phylactery, but recent events have revealed that not to be true.

Actually, he did not act like it. He very plainly stated "If you destroy it, it will not do anything to me right now. But if you even make a scratch into it, you'll deeply regret it".

That is not "pretending not to care". It's only a minor detail, but it is not unimportant.

And Xykon sucks at finding things he does not care about and that are unimportant to him. That is not the same as "sucks at finding things". He is actually much more able to notice stuff than we and most people in the comic assumed - and the comic has quite a few examples of people who came to regret that mistake.

[eras10]

That is not "pretending not to care". It's only a minor detail, but it is not unimportant.

I would describe this as nitpicking. Recent events have revealed that it's not actually a minor detail. Xykon's postponing his whole next attack until it is found. He cares more than he acted like he cared.

And Xykon sucks at finding things he does not care about and that are unimportant to him. That is not the same as "sucks at finding things". He is actually much more able to notice stuff than we and most people in the comic assumed - and the comic has quite a few examples of people who came to regret that mistake.

He's not as stupid or oblivious as he looks. Sometimes. He's still not overly perceptive or careful. He's cocky and reckless and lazy in his preparations, which means, in practice, he often fails to figure or find things out. That's why (spoilers SoD)

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he got owned as a human in SoD by Lirian. That's why he never managed to pull off any big evil plans in his first 70 years of life, pre-Redcloak.

That's why he was almost exterminated by Soon. That's why he hasn't bothered to figure out the secret of the purpose of the ritual. He hasn't even bothered to try.
This is very well established in his personality, and SoD makes it clear that it's not all a big lulling act. Xykon doesn't bother with lulling people anyway unless it's funny.


But more importantly and specifically, he acquires magic items for divination because he's bad at it. This has been mentioned. I think Redcloak is capable of hiding it somewhere where Xykon won't be able to find it, if Xykon stays gone for long enough.

Anyway, Xykon's overall intelligence or perceptiveness (sometimes underestimated, but also quite possible to overestimate, frankly) is not really what matters in assessing whether Redcloak could hide the thing and successfully blackmail Xykon with it. It would be a risky plan. Xykon would probably try to immediately bully and counter-blackmail him with goblin killings. Or replace him outright, but Redcloak may not believe this to be possible.

Wow, this is really falling into place. You know what would really help OOTS beat Xykon at Gerard's gate? Redcloak not being there. Like maybe Xykon imprisons or kills him and replaces him with Tsuikko. And then goes off to Girard.

This helps with a lot of things. OOTS has no reason to leave Redcloak alive again if they actually beat Xykon this time. Last time they were careless and ignorant. This time they won't be.

[fergo]

On the issue of Redcloak's spine: maybe I'm not remembering all the details, but does anyone else think Redcloak's words to Jirix (warning him to beware of Xykon) as indicative of him not being as completely surrendered to doing whatever Xykon wants him to as he was, say, at the end of SoD, or even during the invasion of Azure City?

[skaddix]

This seems a pointless waste of time. The only reason RC would attempt to use it as leverage is if he seriously suspected Xykon knows the secrets of the ritual and that he is now replaceable. Otherwise there is no reason for him to worry because when the ritual works Dark One gets control and Xykon is screwed. Not to mention now that Xykon knows RC cares about his fellow goblins Xykon would probably just start killing them until RC gave up the info and I seriously doubt RC can pass of a fake to Xykon. Xkyon spends 8 hours a day crafting stuff I am pretty sure he is not getting bluffed by a fake.

[Cronos988]

This seems a pointless waste of time. The only reason RC would attempt to use it as leverage is if he seriously suspected Xykon knows the secrets of the ritual and that he is now replaceable. Otherwise there is no reason for him to worry because when the ritual works Dark One gets control and Xykon is screwed. Not to mention now that Xykon knows RC cares about his fellow goblins Xykon would probably just start killing them until RC gave up the info and I seriously doubt RC can pass of a fake to Xykon. Xkyon spends 8 hours a day crafting stuff I am pretty sure he is not getting bluffed by a fake.

But Xykon IS actually trying to find out about the ritual and IS actively working to replace RC. It is very possible that RC knows, or at least suspects, that Xykon is making contingencies. In fact it makes perfect sense for Xykon to try to reduce the leverage RC has over him by virtue of knowing the ritual. RC is smart enough to know that.

The way RC is dealing with the resistance here is significantly different that what we are used from him. He used to just put the pieces in place for Xykon. Now he is in full control of the Situation, surrounded by summons only he controls. He is even making a deliberate display to show that he is in control. I would be very suprised if that does not mean anything.

RCs character development has him gradually taking control of his plans personally, rather than just attaching himself to a more powerful entity. He needs a way to make sure Xykon does not replace him or "alters the deal". I am not sure what he is up to, but he is up to something.

[eras10]

I Concur with Cronos.

[skaddix]

But Xykon IS actually trying to find out about the ritual and IS actively working to replace RC. It is very possible that RC knows, or at least suspects, that Xykon is making contingencies. In fact it makes perfect sense for Xykon to try to reduce the leverage RC has over him by virtue of knowing the ritual. RC is smart enough to know that.

The way RC is dealing with the resistance here is significantly different that what we are used from him. He used to just put the pieces in place for Xykon. Now he is in full control of the Situation, surrounded by summons only he controls. He is even making a deliberate display to show that he is in control. I would be very suprised if that does not mean anything.

RCs character development has him gradually taking control of his plans personally, rather than just attaching himself to a more powerful entity. He needs a way to make sure Xykon does not replace him or "alters the deal". I am not sure what he is up to, but he is up to something.

Sure he might be working an angle but I see no way RC is going to pass of a fake to Xykon

[AlfredAmeoba]

I think Eras' point of the need for speed is most likely. Assuming he want's to avoid using Tsukiko, dominating the spy, running to the base, and taking 3ish turns to summon monsters is much faster than grabbing minions. He doesn't seem like the type to just grab any minion either, he wouldn't throw a hobgoblin against a mid-level mage if he could take them with no casualties.

And a side-note, can you summon monsters inside a cloister? I though Celia's talisman was an exception? Unless Xykon gave him a keyword or something...

[McDouggal]

You can. Somewhere in the the Nale captured #1 scene, summoned creatures can do that.

[Seharvepernfan]

Am I the only one who thinks that this buzzed-cutt human with the crossbow IS Xykon?

[Kish]

Am I the only one who thinks that this buzzed-cutt human with the crossbow IS Xykon?

No. No, I imagine you aren't.

But I'm certainly not one of them. Xykon is a (dead) human and has no reason to hate humans particularly, for starters.

[Cronos988]

Am I the only one who thinks that this buzzed-cutt human with the crossbow IS Xykon?

His comments seem to point more towards a Hobgoblin. Plus, he was apparently disguised as a inmate of the Prison the Resistance stormed, so he can't really be Xykon.

But that newest strip kind of puts a dent into the "no Goblins" theory. Since they had planted the spy for such a long time, it seems unlikely that noone else knows of the operation. I wonder why RC would let the Resistance kill his fellow goblins for so long without stepping in though. Maybe the ambush was an unprecedented case of all the high level Heroes being out.

[Ancalagon]

But I'm certainly not one of them. Xykon is a (dead) human and has no reason to hate humans particularly, for starters.

He hates all things living. That he says "humans" might only be a reference to him having to live among them, but if you asked him, he'd told you he'd hate goblins as well.

So while this does not mean you have to subscribe to that idea, what you mentioned is no valid reason to exclude the possibility we're seeing a polymorphed Xykon.
A similar weak proof FOR that person being Xykon is his rambling about lessons, as Xykon, you know, likes to give out lessons to people he defeated.

I guess we won't know for sure until we see it.

edit: What sinks this theory is the comment about "How many weeks I had to sit in prison"... a) we know Xykon was not in the prison at that time and b) he'd never do something like that.

[fergo]

Going undercover for a long stretch of time is completely contrary to Xykon's character . He'd be much more likely to go down there and tear the cave apart stone by stone, if he cared enough to do anything about it at all.

[veti]

No. No, I imagine you aren't.

But I'm certainly not one of them. Xykon is a (dead) human and has no reason to hate humans particularly, for starters.

Plus, can you imagine Xykon having that sort of patience? If he did infiltrate the resistance, what would stop him from simply butchering the whole boiling of them straight away?

As to why Redcloak didn't bring hobgoblins: possibly he doesn't know the identity of the Resistance's polymorphed spy, and didn't want to risk tipping them off. So the only people he could have brought would have been those he knows well, such as Jirix, and he didn't want to endanger them to no good purpose.