Bleach V: Well that was a waste of time (Fullbring? What's that?)

[Psyren]

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Vice-captain-guy knew bankai? And hid it this whole time? And got his ass kicked off camera without us getting to see it?

You've GOT to be kidding, Kubo.

So Ishida's sitting this one out - does he know that the bad guy had a Quincy Cross? I wonder if Ichigo told him yet.

[DiscipleofBob]

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Once again, another major hole in the swiss cheese that is Bleach plot.

So Sasakibe knew bankai, knew it for a long time but just refused to use it, and STILL got one-shotted by a bare-handed Ichigo along with two other lieutenants...

And we'll probably never get to see said bankai now either (or if his rapier shikai had any special abilities).

Why do I get the feeling that Kubo is the George Lucas of manga? (That is, having one really good run and everything goes downhill from there).

[thubby]

he gets this far in and NOW starts retconning?! cmon

[jindra34]

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Once again, another major hole in the swiss cheese that is Bleach plot.

So Sasakibe knew bankai, knew it for a long time but just refused to use it, and STILL got one-shotted by a bare-handed Ichigo along with two other lieutenants...

And we'll probably never get to see said bankai now either (or if his rapier shikai had any special abilities).

Why do I get the feeling that Kubo is the George Lucas of manga? (That is, having one really good run and everything goes downhill from there).

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You forgot the part where apparently he held his post longer than even the Captain Commander. Um what?

[DukeGod]

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Vice-captain-guy knew bankai? And hid it this whole time? And got his ass kicked off camera without us getting to see it

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And we'll probably never get to see said bankai now either (or if his rapier shikai had any special abilities).

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Didn't one of those guys said he failed to "capture" Ichigo's bankai? Since vice-captain guy said something about bankai to Yamamoto he probably had his captured. I think one of the new dudes are going to use it later...
Come on, that King fellow is so going to be using a crapload ton of bankais by the time he hits his third or fifth form

[Psyren]

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You forgot the part where apparently he held his post longer than even the Captain Commander. Um what?

I forgot that part. Epic lulz. Yama founded the freaking Gotei 13, so that is physically impossible.

I can't... I just can't be trolled like this anymore. *Wipes blood off desk and forehead*

[jindra34]

I forgot that part. Epic lulz. Yama founded the freaking Gotei 13, so that is physically impossible.

I can't... I just can't be trolled like this anymore. *Wipes blood off desk and forehead*

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Maybe Yama expanded it from one (or two or three) division(s) to the 13 we have today? Or maybe he 'founded' it back when he was still teaching recruits at the school he also founded and was only later pulled up to actually being Captain commander?

Or maybe Kubo's just trolling us. Not sure why I even presented theories.

[Psyren]

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Once again, another major hole in the swiss cheese that is Bleach plot.

So Sasakibe knew bankai, knew it for a long time but just refused to use it, and STILL got one-shotted by a bare-handed Ichigo along with two other lieutenants...

And we'll probably never get to see said bankai now either (or if his rapier shikai had any special abilities).

Why do I get the feeling that Kubo is the George Lucas of manga? (That is, having one really good run and everything goes downhill from there).

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Here's the best part! The Bleach anime just ended, so we won't even get a chance to see Sasakibe's fight there.

Now, to be fair to Ichigo, at least he knew bankai himself when he one-shot those lieutenants. So it's not quite as ridiculous in hindsight as the Ikkaku fight. But it's still a total asspull.

[DiscipleofBob]

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Here's the best part! The Bleach anime just ended, so we won't even get a chance to see Sasakibe's fight there.

Now, to be fair to Ichigo, at least he knew bankai himself when he one-shot those lieutenants. So it's not quite as ridiculous in hindsight as the Ikkaku fight. But it's still a total asspull.

Yeah, but Ikkaku is at least known for letting his ass get kicked rather than reveal he has bankai to anyone else. That and he rarely takes fights completely seriously.

When Ichigo took out the three lieutenants, they had absolutely no reason not to go all-out on him, and yet according to the most recent chapter, one of those lieutenants should have been on a power level comparable to the higher-level captains.

[jindra34]

Thinking about this chapter a little it does explain the speech to Ikkaku way back at the start of the Fake Karakura town arc. Not worth the cost though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Maybe I am remembering wrong; but I thought that Ikakus got his bankai after the first fight with Ichigo; but before the first Arrancar invasion?

Also I have to agree that Kubo is the Lucas of Manga, hell several fanfictions are better at explaining things that Kubo himself.

[Anteros]

I forgot that part. Epic lulz. Yama founded the freaking Gotei 13, so that is physically impossible.

I can't... I just can't be trolled like this anymore. *Wipes blood off desk and forehead*

The translation I red stated that he held his post longer than many of the captains. Not that he held it longer than the captain commander.

Spoiler

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Once again, another major hole in the swiss cheese that is Bleach plot.

So Sasakibe knew bankai, knew it for a long time but just refused to use it, and STILL got one-shotted by a bare-handed Ichigo along with two other lieutenants...

And we'll probably never get to see said bankai now either (or if his rapier shikai had any special abilities).

Why do I get the feeling that Kubo is the George Lucas of manga? (That is, having one really good run and everything goes downhill from there).

Just because the fans don't get to see every little thing that they want to see happen in a story doesn't make a story bad. In fact, I'd argue the reverse. I'd rather have an actual story than endless, pointless fanservice.

Also, you're all assuming that because he has a bankai, it means he's on a captain's level without even using it. That makes no sense. The bankai might put him on a captain's level...but if he never uses it out of some misplaced sense of pride, then it doesn't really do him any good.

[jindra34]

The translation I red stated that he held his post longer than many of the captains. Not that he held it longer than the captain commander.

The translation I read used 'The Captain' as the term of what changed and thinking about that it makes me want to rethink how the pre-Yama, pre-Gotei 13 SS actually worked, or maybe how the SS works in general. Maybe the part of the SS that we have seen so far is just the part for Japan and was at one point under the command of just one captain? Why else would a singular semi-proper form for the leader have been used when currently is a plural that is semi-proper? Eh, still not gonna do Kubo's work of explaining things well for him.

[Anteros]

The translation I read used 'The Captain' as the term of what changed and thinking about that it makes me want to rethink how the pre-Yama, pre-Gotei 13 SS actually worked, or maybe how the SS works in general. Maybe the part of the SS that we have seen so far is just the part for Japan and was at one point under the command of just one captain? Why else would a singular semi-proper form for the leader have been used when currently is a plural that is semi-proper? Eh, still not gonna do Kubo's work of explaining things well for him.

Well, I think sometimes we forget that we're reading something that was written in a different language for a different culture. The implication is clear that he remained Yama's vice captain and passed up the opportunity to be captain of other squads, even if the language isn't.

Also...rescue arc! Orihime and Rukia were a bit more attractive than the current damsel in distress though.

[jindra34]

Well, I think sometimes we forget that we're reading something that was written in a different language for a different culture. The implication is clear that he remained Yama's vice captain and passed up the opportunity to be captain of other squads, even if the language isn't.

I'm not saying that isn't true. It just seems like a very odd translation choice to use in that case, specifically the singularity of the word used. I'd expect translators to at least be able to distinguish between singular and plural. Particularly when you include the acting captain line.

[Psyren]

Also...rescue arc!

Hoo-ray

[Tenno Seremel]

Maybe Sasakibe's bankai wasn't for combat. For better trolling he need to be a phoenix.

[Soras Teva Gee]

When Ichigo took out the three lieutenants, they had absolutely no reason not to go all-out on him, and yet according to the most recent chapter, one of those lieutenants should have been on a power level comparable to the higher-level captains.

Not to defend the total Ass Pull but status and age is not always equal to power. If anything this fits with bankai not being all its cracked up to which has been running through every fight since it the Soul Society Arc. Compare Soi Fong who quite rationally never uses hers because it doesn't suit her style all that well.

It seems pretty evident that while there may be some exceptions bankai functions more like a static multiplier. Some may have x10 or x50 but this is roughly always the same so you can always compensate by simply being that much stronger before the multiplier.

So if our poor Lieutenant only had middling reiastu and a bankai that doesn't give him much he could still be fairly weak since he just has lower potential relative to even the younger Captains... that said yep its still total and complete bull****. We've known for awhile though that Tite Kubo can't actually write and just pulls crap out of his arse when he gets stuck.

Also Tite Kubo isn't the George Lucas of manga Lucas has plenty of different ideas they just aren't terribly good... No Tite Kubo is the Rob Liefeld of manga. (If Liefeld had basic artistic ability)

[Madara]

Wait...we're going to hueco mundo, to save someone, and Ichigo might lose his Bankai? Why do I feel like we've been through this many...many...many...times

[DiscipleofBob]

The translation I red stated that he held his post longer than many of the captains. Not that he held it longer than the captain commander.

The whole confusion with this seems to come from a translation issue, since I thought Old Man Yama was the one who formed the Gotei 13 in the beginning (could be wrong there).

Just because the fans don't get to see every little thing that they want to see happen in a story doesn't make a story bad. In fact, I'd argue the reverse. I'd rather have an actual story than endless, pointless fanservice.

Also, you're all assuming that because he has a bankai, it means he's on a captain's level without even using it. That makes no sense. The bankai might put him on a captain's level...but if he never uses it out of some misplaced sense of pride, then it doesn't really do him any good.

With respect, in the Shounen genre, saying a person was really accomplished and powerful and had achieved something very few characters in the series have, and only after said character gets an off-screen death, it's bad writing. Period. What Kubo is trying to do is say "Oh, these bad guys are so tough, they took out a lieutenant!" *crickets chirp* "But he was a tough lieutenant, he had bankai and he mastered it before the other captains, and he was really awesome!" *more crickets chirp* Kubo's trying to make the death of the lieutenant and the funeral important, but it isn't because this was a background character he never bothered to develop. Not only that, but said character was used as fodder to prove how awesome Ichigo was after one of his earlier power boosts in the series. To go back and say that Sasakibe was important, powerful, and on bankai level is a complete, pointless retcon. And showing what the abilities of a character are isn't "fanservice," especially when the writer is using said abilities as a plot point.

Remember, the manga didn't just say that Sasakibe had access to bankai. It said he was "meant to become a captain" and "he was able to master his bankai before Kyouraku and Ukitake." It's implied through that eulogy that if Sasakibe want to, he could be a captain, and not only that, he would be on the same tier as Kyouraku and a (non-sick) Ukitake, captains who'd been there since the founding of the Gotei 13.

The fight scene between Saskibe and the messengers would have been integral to the plot, shown us Saskibe's bankai, probably wouldn't have taken that long since the new shiny bad guys would probably have one-shotted him as soon as Sasakibe used his bankai because that appears to be their thing. Personally, I'd just be satisfied with a little text or even a bit at the end of the chapter just telling us what his abilities were. Instead all we get is Kubo saying "Oh yeah, that guy was totally awesome, trust me."

[Madara]

Well, if they take Bankais, maybe we'll still get to see his.

[Drolyt]

Well, that was, uh, interesting. Yama's vice captain had a Bankai he never used and we never got to see. Right. As for the strange wording of how long he has been there, I don't think he was there before Yama. Some of the other lines would simply have made less since then. Regardless, I am pretty sure this retcon exists because the bad guys are stealing Bankais. I hope anyways.

I'm not sure Lucas is a good comparison here. Lucas' problem was that while making the prequels there was no one to tell him "no George, that's stupid". At the core of the prequels there are some very good movies trying to get out, Lucas just weighed them down with crap like Jar Jar and Midichlorians (spelling?). Even then I wouldn't call them bad movies. But Kubo? He has a number of problems, but a major one has to be a lack of planning ahead so that every new plot "twist" seems to come out of his ass, which is kind of the opposite of what Lucas does.

[slayerx]

Not to defend the total Ass Pull but status and age is not always equal to power. If anything this fits with bankai not being all its cracked up to which has been running through every fight since it the Soul Society Arc. Compare Soi Fong who quite rationally never uses hers because it doesn't suit her style all that well.

It seems pretty evident that while there may be some exceptions bankai functions more like a static multiplier. Some may have x10 or x50 but this is roughly always the same so you can always compensate by simply being that much stronger before the multiplier.

So if our poor Lieutenant only had middling reiastu and a bankai that doesn't give him much he could still be fairly weak since he just has lower potential relative to even the younger Captains... that said yep its still total and complete bull****. We've known for awhile though that Tite Kubo can't actually write and just pulls crap out of his arse when he gets stuck.

Also Tite Kubo isn't the George Lucas of manga Lucas has plenty of different ideas they just aren't terribly good... No Tite Kubo is the Rob Liefeld of manga. (If Liefeld had basic artistic ability)

Ya i don't think that defense holds up...
First off, When Ichigo achieved Bankai it lead to a DRAMATIC increase in his normal strength. He once struggled Against VC's but now he was KO'ing them effortlessly.

2nd, they did not only point out that Sasakibe obtained Bankai, they also pointed out that he was fully capable of being a captain if he so desired it. As they pointed out with Ikkaku and Renji, their is a difference between VC's you have been able to obtain Bankai and those that actually able to be a captain.

Now granted, Renji actually does show how weak someone can be while having a bankai since he fought ichigo evenly despite Renji being the only one have learned Bankai... but that leads to the third point

Third, not only did he obtain bankai, he did it BEFORE two of the most senior captains; Meaning he obtained his bankai over 100 years ago... Combine this with hoe much they just posted his ability to be a captain amd we are expected to believe that he was only VC level despite having a banaki? NO this is just BS...


Really, i think Kubo put himself in a corner. He wanted to hype up his antagonists but at the same time did not want to reveal anything of what they can do. The best way to hype them up would be to kill a captain, but since he did not want to reveal the antagonist's abilities that would mean it would have to be an off screen death and even Kubo realized the fans would get pissed if he gave a character an off screen death. So his solution? Take his most worthless, undeveloped character, with a non-existent fanbase, sacrifice him for the plot, and then paint up his corpse to LOOK like that of a captain. Seriously, this is a guy who never even got the chance to reveal his shikai power much less his bankai.

What makes it even sadder is the fact that he was secretly a badass could have been very interesting if his suckage was not ever established; i mean it sorta makes sence that the right hand man of the Captain commander would be Captain level; there's plenty that could have been done... but no, his high status is just a paint job.

[Frozen_Feet]

To me, this felt less a retcon and more foreshadowing. It lends substance to Chojiro's last words, and I'm 100% confident we'll get to see it still and it will be a plotpoint.

As far as the eulogy goes, yes, he was meant to be a Captain, but it's clear that never panned out as expected. Also, we've seen in many ways that while Bankai makes you stronger, it doesn't necessarily make you strong, period. See Renji, AKA Lieutenant Jobber. Or Ikkaku, for that matter. Neither is very impressive compared to what Yamamoto can do in his Shikai, or without a Zanpakuto at all.

[VanBuren]

ITT: Kubo is the worst thing to happen to anything ever and Bleach is awful and fanfics are better.

I'm not saying that isn't true. It just seems like a very odd translation choice to use in that case, specifically the singularity of the word used. I'd expect translators to at least be able to distinguish between singular and plural. Particularly when you include the acting captain line.

I don't know the translation you're using, but I wouldn't be surprised by poor translation choices in the one I have. Granted, it's better than it has been, and I was actually pleasantly surprised until someone's speech bubble literally started with "White Haired Man:".

That's just lazy.

[thubby]

now that i think about it, kubo missed a good opportunity.

he could have been almost as strong as a captain with only his shikai. hisagi vs the fraction was one of the best fights in the anime, someone who could fight like that only better would be awesome.

[slayerx]

To me, this felt less a retcon and more foreshadowing. It lends substance to Chojiro's last words, and I'm 100% confident we'll get to see it still and it will be a plotpoint.

Its pointless foreshadowing since we have learned that from Ichigo and the enemy. The enemy tried to steal seal Ichigo's bankai but it failed, that was the point of his last words... we didn't need whats-his-name to die for a message we got through ichigo.

What WOULD have worked out that was was if Ichigo and Ivan never had their encounter... then we could stew on it for a few chapters on what happened to the VC and what the new enemies can do. Then we would find out and then worry it might happen to ichigo when he is faced with it, only to be surprised when it fails... Kubo sorta did that, except he allowed no time between the VC's death and Ichigo's encounter; thus denying us any form of tension

As far as the eulogy goes, yes, he was meant to be a Captain, but it's clear that never panned out as expected. Also, we've seen in many ways that while Bankai makes you stronger, it doesn't necessarily make you strong, period. See Renji, AKA Lieutenant Jobber. Or Ikkaku, for that matter. Neither is very impressive compared to what Yamamoto can do in his Shikai, or without a Zanpakuto at all.

Huge difference between him and renji is that he has had Bankai for over 100 years AND Byakuya praised him saying that he could have easily been a captain if he ever had the desire... Meaning unlike Renji he WAS indeed captain level

This fodder turned captain died without ever even getting a chance to reveal his Shikai abilities, much less his Bankai. All this is, is a very poor attempt at building hype. Kubo wanted to raise the stakes by killing someone but also wanted the new enemy to look strong, but didn't want to waste someone meaningful... so he chose one of the least developed character he had


Another thing, Kubo's writing in this chapter is particualr jarring when you conisder that we jump back and forth between the Funeral and the Comdey stylings of Ichigo and his friends... it kind of has a way of undermining the "tragedy".

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ya i don't think that defense holds up...
First off, When Ichigo achieved Bankai it lead to a DRAMATIC increase in his normal strength. He once struggled Against VC's but now he was KO'ing them effortlessly.

Between struggling against Renji and one-punching three VCs Ichigo also beat Kenpachi without a bankai.

Yeah Ichigo got a dramatic increase from bankai for basically one event but every other fight but starting with Kenpachi without whupping two bankai in a row proves it to be only moderately important. Sure it means one who actually has a bankai is going full tilt but its fairly irrelevant to the actual final result.

So it still possible for out Sasakibe to have a bankai and still be fairly weak.

2nd, they did not only point out that Sasakibe obtained Bankai, they also pointed out that he was fully capable of being a captain if he so desired it. As they pointed out with Ikkaku and Renji, their is a difference between VC's you have been able to obtain Bankai and those that actually able to be a captain.

Yeah because unless you give yourself a Klingon Promotion you need some level of support from the existing Captains. And so help me I don't recall them ever establishing that Ikkaku and Renji couldn't be Captains, and bankai was never the only requirement. For those two in particular I dare say they would make a similar personal choice to Sasakibe

Third, not only did he obtain bankai, he did it BEFORE two of the most senior captains; Meaning he obtained his bankai over 100 years ago... Combine this with hoe much they just posted his ability to be a captain amd we are expected to believe that he was only VC level despite having a banaki? NO this is just BS...

Sasakibe was visibly older, in fact only exceeded by his Captain, given that Ukitake and Kyoraku look at best early middle age... so he presumably had a head start.

And again why does age have to equal actual power?

Really, i think Kubo put himself in a corner. He wanted to hype up his antagonists but at the same time did not want to reveal anything of what they can do. The best way to hype them up would be to kill a captain, but since he did not want to reveal the antagonist's abilities that would mean it would have to be an off screen death and even Kubo realized the fans would get pissed if he gave a character an off screen death. So his solution? Take his most worthless, undeveloped character, with a non-existent fanbase, sacrifice him for the plot, and then paint up his corpse to LOOK like that of a captain. Seriously, this is a guy who never even got the chance to reveal his shikai power much less his bankai.

Note how I called it an Ass Pull to start. Of course this Shamalanyasnenangangaga like twist is completely pasted on after the fact. All I'm saying is that thematically its still less total crap then garbage like Zeroth Espada for example or trying to explain how Kenpachi lost to Ichigo then wins every other fight or Hitsugaya struggling against a Numero then being able to fight an Espada...

And above all that that just because he got bankai a long time ago does not mean Sasakibe should somehow be on par powerwise with Kyoraku and Ukitake.

What makes it even sadder is the fact that he was secretly a badass could have been very interesting if his suckage was not ever established; i mean it sorta makes sence that the right hand man of the Captain commander would be Captain level; there's plenty that could have been done... but no, his high status is just a paint job.

Obviously and I agree, then again looking back it always was total bull**** for Ichigo to have pulled off those three TKOs anyways. At least given how badly he sucked and had to power up from the next arc on... yet the whole rank of Lieutentent (and lower) weren't just slaughtered in under a second by one Arrancar.

Oh sure sure all the other Soul Reapers got stronger for the occasion of the war, but there's a lot of improvement for only 1 or 2 (depending on Ikkaku) reaching bankai, which I think outlines just how unimportant the power up became

[Anteros]

Ya i don't think that defense holds up...
First off, When Ichigo achieved Bankai it lead to a DRAMATIC increase in his normal strength. He once struggled Against VC's but now he was KO'ing them effortlessly.

Except that it was stated explicitly by Zangetsu that he got much stronger through the special training he went through in order to attain Bankai...not only the bankai itself.

Really, guys...if it's so terrible feel free to stop reading/posting and let those of us who enjoy it actually enjoy.

[thubby]

i have to wonder why no ones ever thought to take on ss less directly.
there are maybe 30 people of significant power in an absolutely gargantuan area.

the fraction were generally on par with lieutenants, and there were hordes of those. if they had run around causing havoc on earth and the outer parts of SS, the squads couldn't do anything while their resources were torn to bits.