Bleach V: Well that was a waste of time (Fullbring? What's that?)

[thubby]

i think Urahara freed mayuri under the assumption he would be there to keep him in check.
on a leash that psycho could do a lot of good.

you'll notice he didnt promote mayuri to lieutenant or anything of the sort, probably specifically to keep him from having authority in SS.

[darksolitaire]

Kubo pulling He Was Evil All Along on Urahara would be biggest ass-pull in bleach this arc. He is established as a shady mentor figure, and hasn't done actual evil beside hiding Hōgyoku in Rukia.

Besides, I'm sure Kubo doesn't know tropes :D

[jindra34]

Honestly given his actions it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Urahara was planning on overthrowing/overturning/mess the ruling system of the SS, I''m just not sure that that would actually make him a bad guy.

[Psyren]

you'll notice he didnt promote mayuri to lieutenant or anything of the sort, probably specifically to keep him from having authority in SS.

No, he just gave him authority over other shinigami in all matters related to his experiments, including lieutenants.


To be clear, I don't actually think Urahara is evil. Perhaps more amoral than Ichigo believes, but not actually villainous. But it's more that Kubo is making him dangerously inconsistent and incompetent through poor writing than any intentional agenda.

[Friv]

I'm, sorry, but in my book you're only a capital 'E' Evil when you actually take over the world in a cruel way.

I cannot get behind that argument. Under your definition, the Joker is not a capital 'E' Evil villain, nor is Hannibel Lecter or any serial killer.

By the way, his shikai paralyses and numbs you (Ishida needed to use the puppet technique to use his quinchy abilities), the true cruel thing is what he can do once you are numb and paralyzed. That is where his evilness shines through.

Ahem.

The shikai specifically does not numb you when it paralyses you. Mayuri is extremely proud of his ability to continue inflicting pain on you while you can't move.

The fact that he remains loyal (although this is to be debated, he could just be intimdated by Yama-yii because mr. genocide is a tad bit stronger then he is) is not an evil trait. I'd put him as diet evil in my book.

I'm just going to let a few of Mayuri's own quotes speak for themselves.

*sigh* A man's scream is really lacking in comparison to a woman's. It's nowhere near as lustful.

I finished studying! Observed the result of all sorts of physical and mental stimuli! Opened a skull alive! Forced one to burn his son to death! Chopped up bodies! Ground up bodies! Studied them until they were rendered to piles of lifeless limbs.

While they were being studied, they always said: "I swear on the pride of the Quincy, I will never do it!" or "I swear on the pride of the Quincy, I will not let you do it!" Those guys said nothing but that annoying crap!

But after one stab from Ashisogizisou... all their words become meaningless.

[Psyren]

^

Mayuri is a sick ****

[Anteros]

oh, wow, I love this chapter, finally some plot not directly related to the world Hax0r movement (the main characters, Urahara & Aizen). I agree with some of you here, Mayuri is evil, but not with a capital E. I also agree that Yama-yii's reaction tells us it was neccessary, whatever that tells us. Third, Mayuri knows he's being watched closely, I mean, he is a captain in charge of a lot of duties (senkaimon, anything related to science, etc.). Finally we see why Yama-yi has such wrinkles

Problems with this.
1.) Yama is at the very least criminally stupid. At the worst, he's evil himself. As the man in charge, every atrocity that he allows is laid at his feet. He's definitely powerful...and even honorable in his own way. He's also definitely a terrible person.

2.) Yama also though executing Rukia was necessary. He also thought exterminating the Quincy was necessary. He also thought betraying the previous substitute shinigami was necessary. He also thought that abandoning Orihime to Aizen was necessary. I'm sorry, but after his continual track record of mind numbing stupidity and irresponsibility, "Yama thought it was necessary" is not going to cut it.

3.) Mayuri is being watched closely? Was he being watched closely when he tortured and murdered all those innocent Quincy? He just exterminated 28,000 people before his commander could learn of it. I'd hate to see what he could get away with if he wasn't being "watched closely."

[VanBuren]

Yama also though executing Rukia was necessary.

True, though I'm willing to give a semi-pass on the basis that Kubo needed him to be fooled by Aizen's machinations. Not a real pass, but a semi-one.

He also thought exterminating the Quincy was necessary.

Which we don't know was the wrong call. IIRC, it was either Ishida or Ryuken who noted that it was probably the right call.

He also thought betraying the previous substitute shinigami was necessary.

Did he? Wasn't it Ginjo who went AWOL when he realized he was being monitored?

He also thought that abandoning Orihime to Aizen was necessary.

It's not like that turned out to be a trap or anything.

I'm sorry, but after his continual track record of mind numbing stupidity and irresponsibility, "Yama thought it was necessary" is not going to cut it.

I'm seeing one, maybe two dubious calls there.

[Tavar]

2.) Yama also though executing Rukia was necessary.

Because laws are for suckers, and should never be followed.

He also thought exterminating the Quincy was necessary.

So, your argument for rejecting the idea that Quincy needed to be destroyed is that the Qunincy were destroyed? Something doesn't flow right here, but I just can't put my finger on it....

Oh, and remember, when asked Uryū Ishida said that the Soul Reapers were likely correct.

He also thought betraying the previous substitute shinigami was necessary.

And, apparently, so did everyone else. We don't really know anything about the situation, beyond that he was, at some point, betrayed. Did he deserve it? We don't know.

He also thought that abandoning Orihime to Aizen was necessary.

It kinda was. He's fighting a war, remember? One weak soldier was captured. To rescue her, he would have to send some of his strongest forces to the enemies main encampment in order to rescue her. A place that the Shingami have significant trouble getting to or out of. Oh, and doing so would also weaken the forces available to block the enemy from directly achieving his main goal.

Also, think about what happened in the rescue arch. The only reasons the rescuers weren't wiped out is that Gin (and possibly Aizen) didn't want them to be. And that force consisted of essentially half of Soul Societies true striking power.

From the perspective of someone fighting a war, the Captain-commander was right. Nevermind the fact that Aizen specifically took Orihime not because her abilities were really useful, but because he wanted to draw out some of Soul Societies forces. In other words, it was a trap. The Captain-commander saw the trap for what it was, and decided not to stick his hand into it.

[Anteros]

Because laws are for suckers, and should never be followed.
So, your argument for rejecting the idea that Quincy needed to be destroyed is that the Qunincy were destroyed? Something doesn't flow right here, but I just can't put my finger on it....

Oh, and remember, when asked Uryū Ishida said that the Soul Reapers were likely correct.

They needed to be stopped. I don't think they needed to be tortured, experimented on, and mercilessly murdered by a madman.

And I bet that decision didn't have anything at all to do with the Quincy staging a rebellion now, and costing tens of thousands of lives already to be lost. Nope. Probably not.

And, apparently, so did everyone else. We don't really know anything about the situation, beyond that he was, at some point, betrayed. Did he deserve it? We don't know.

Well we also know that they were under orders to execute Ichigo if he "chose wrongly" as well. Which is just a great way to treat your friends.

It kinda was. He's fighting a war, remember? One weak soldier was captured. To rescue her, he would have to send some of his strongest forces to the enemies main encampment in order to rescue her. A place that the Shingami have significant trouble getting to or out of. Oh, and doing so would also weaken the forces available to block the enemy from directly achieving his main goal.

Also, think about what happened in the rescue arch. The only reasons the rescuers weren't wiped out is that Gin (and possibly Aizen) didn't want them to be. And that force consisted of essentially half of Soul Societies true striking power.

From the perspective of someone fighting a war, the Captain-commander was right. Nevermind the fact that Aizen specifically took Orihime not because her abilities were really useful, but because he wanted to draw out some of Soul Societies forces. In other words, it was a trap. The Captain-commander saw the trap for what it was, and decided not to stick his hand into it.

Even if you want to look at it this way, it's not exactly a shining example of your leadership and competence when half your subordinates completely ignore your direct orders. Even if you're right, a competent commander would have laid out his reasons and maybe actually gotten people to listen to him instead of just randomly screaming at the guy who is his only hope of actually winning that he can't go on a rescue mission to save his friend. (Which is totally in character, because it's not like he met Ichigo in the first place during a rescue mission to save his frie....nevermind.)

What about banishing the Vaizard? What about all of Mayuris other sick experiments? Or the fact that he apparently loves promoting traitors to captain? Even his 2 most loyal and trusted students recognize that he's wrong and move against him at one point. It's almost a running gag how incompetent he is. Seriously, with all of the bad things and atrocities that happen on his watch, calling him incompetent is actually a compliment. Because if he’s actually aware of these things then he’s not incompetent. He’s just evil.

[Friv]

They needed to be stopped. I don't think they needed to be tortured, experimented on, and mercilessly murdered by a madman.

That part wasn't Yama's call. According to Mayuri, by the time he decided to start his Quincy experiments the war between them and Soul Society was over, and most of the Quincy had been wiped out. He bribed the people who were watching the Quincy to make sure they didn't start anything to look the other way while he grabbed them, which implies that the people in charge didn't know. If they'd known, Mayuri wouldn't have had to resort to bribes.

Even if you want to look at it this way, it's not exactly a shining example of your leadership and competence when half your subordinates completely ignore your direct orders. Even if you're right, a competent commander would have laid out his reasons and maybe actually gotten people to listen to him instead of just randomly screaming at the guy who is his only hope of actually winning that he can't go on a rescue mission to save his friend. (Which is totally in character, because it's not like he met Ichigo in the first place during a rescue mission to save his frie....nevermind.)

This, though, I agree with. And it's way worse than that if you look back. During the Rescue arc, if you break down the captains' actions, you get the following:

Aizen, Ichimaru, Tousen, Shunsui, Ukitake, and Kenpachi all turn actively traitorous for various reasons, fighting against the other captains. Along the way, all of their respective lieutenants except for Tousen's lieutenant, Hisagi, also turn traitor, as does as Renji. So that's six of twelve captains and five out of twelve lieutenants actively being traitors.

Of the remaining captains, Hitsugaya ignores what's going on entirely to follow his own suspicions, and Isane abandons the field to follow hers. Both are right, but neither bothers bringing their suspicions up with Yamamoto. Their lieutenants follow them rather than reporting them to their boss. Also, there's Iba (Komamaru's lieutenant), who fights Ikkaku really half-heartedly, and Nemu, who deliberately saves Ishida's life after Ishida defeats Mayuri. So that's two more captains and four more lieutenants who are less than determined to be fully loyal.

Of the remaining four captains and three lieutenants, a bunch flake out. Soi Fon gives up when Yoruichi is beating her, and doesn't continue fighting. Mayuri flakes out after his near-death experience, and refuses to continue. The only captains that actually remain dependable are Byakuya and Komamaru, both of whom are beaten nearly to death.

At best, you could say that four captains actually stayed loyal to Yamamoto. This is not a stellar record.

[Tavar]

They needed to be stopped. I don't think they needed to be tortured, experimented on, and mercilessly murdered by a madman.

And I bet that decision didn't have anything at all to do with the Quincy staging a rebellion now, and costing tens of thousands of lives already to be lost. Nope. Probably not.

That's not what you argued, but whatever. Okay, so your issue is the horrible things done to several Quincy souls. Show that the Captain Commander knew about such actions, and sanctioned them.

I don't think you can. Hell, I'm pretty sure Mayuri even says that he subverted the assigned watchers in order to kill and collect the souls he was experimenting on.

As for a cause of the war...I don't think so. Doesn't seem like anyone knew about the actions, plus these Quincy seem to have been in hiding(otherwise the whole stuff about Ishida being the Last Quincy or whatever is pretty stupid).

Well we also know that they were under orders to execute Ichigo if he "chose wrongly" as well. Which is just a great way to treat your friends.

Huh. If someone decides to rebel against you, and is one of the most powerful fighters currently alive, trying to then kill them is bad? Wow.

Even if you want to look at it this way, it's not exactly a shining example of your leadership and competence when half your subordinates completely ignore your direct orders. Even if you're right, a competent commander would have laid out his reasons and maybe actually gotten people to listen to him instead of just randomly screaming at the guy who is his only hope of actually winning that he can't go on a rescue mission to save his friend. (Which is totally in character, because it's not like he met Ichigo in the first place during a rescue mission to save his frie....nevermind.)

This can, at least partially, be laid at cultural differences. Japan places much more emphasis on rank, with the subordinates supposed to follow their superior. The fact that the Commander is presented as ultra-traditional only emphasizes this.

Also, I'm pretty sure he does lay out the reasoning: he thinks it's a trap, and the fact that it's more important to protect the goal, and thus the world, than it is to rescue one individual. Ichigo doesn't care, however, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have acted in any other way.

I think the fact that so many did join up with him during Orihime's capture is supposed to be a sign that Ichigo has drawn other too him, and changed so much. Basically, affirming what some of the others said during the fullbring arc.

What about banishing the Vaizard? What about all of Mayuris other sick experiments? Or the fact that he apparently loves promoting traitors to captain? Even his 2 most loyal and trusted students recognize that he's wrong and move against him at one point. It's almost a running gag how incompetent he is. Seriously, with all of the bad things and atrocities that happen on his watch, calling him incompetent is actually a compliment. Because if he’s actually aware of these things then he’s not incompetent. He’s just evil.

The Vaizard had merged with the foe that Shingami were sworn to fight. And, lest we forget, weren't sane, nor was their a way, at the time, to think they would regain their sanity. Nor, if I remember correctly, were they actually banished, at least not until after they disappeared with Urahara and the rest

As for the other experiments...well, I think that's a consequence of how Soul Society's upper ranks are structured. The Captains are all extremely powerful people, and seem to be given a great deal of leeway in how they conduct their business. Unless what they do directly interfere's with the safety of the world or the dictates of government, they seem to be able to do pretty much whatever they want. Which makes sense: each one is essentially an Achilles, and the Captain-Commander doesn't want to drive his Achilles away to sulk in their tents.

[HandofShadows]

The Vaizard had merged with the foe that Shingami were sworn to fight. And, lest we forget, weren't sane, nor was their a way, at the time, to think they would regain their sanity. Nor, if I remember correctly, were they actually banished, at least not until after they disappeared with Urahara and the rest

I would like to add to this that Yama was not the one that ordered their banishment. I belive it was the Central 46 that did it. In fact the Central 46 are the real rulers of the SS, not Old Man Yama. He only commands the Court Guards.

[Anteros]

That's not what you argued, but whatever. Okay, so your issue is the horrible things done to several Quincy souls. Show that the Captain Commander knew about such actions, and sanctioned them.

I don't think you can. Hell, I'm pretty sure Mayuri even says that he subverted the assigned watchers in order to kill and collect the souls he was experimenting on.

Fine. So it's just more evidence of him being completely incompetent rather than evil. Thanks for backing me up.

As for a cause of the war...I don't think so. Doesn't seem like anyone knew about the actions, plus these Quincy seem to have been in hiding(otherwise the whole stuff about Ishida being the Last Quincy or whatever is pretty stupid).

So, they wiped out the Quincy and apparently have some kind of grudge with these Quincy. You're really going to argue that these things aren't related? Really?

Huh. If someone decides to rebel against you, and is one of the most powerful fighters currently alive, trying to then kill them is bad? Wow.

Personally, I might...ya'know...try to explain things to that person in order to keep them loyal. Instead of just hoping they arbitrarily side with me with no explanation and ordering their friends to murder them if they don't.

This can, at least partially, be laid at cultural differences. Japan places much more emphasis on rank, with the subordinates supposed to follow their superior. The fact that the Commander is presented as ultra-traditional only emphasizes this.

Also, I'm pretty sure he does lay out the reasoning: he thinks it's a trap, and the fact that it's more important to protect the goal, and thus the world, than it is to rescue one individual. Ichigo doesn't care, however, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have acted in any other way.

I think the fact that so many did join up with him during Orihime's capture is supposed to be a sign that Ichigo has drawn other too him, and changed so much. Basically, affirming what some of the others said during the fullbring arc.

Go back and watch/read it again. His argument basically consisted of "no! You may not save your friend! I won't allow it!"

I'll concede that Ichigo wasn't going to listen to him no matter what. Which is just another example of him being incompetent. He just randomly expected Ichigo to follow his orders, despite all evidence to the contrary. However, if he wasn't so blindingly stupid, he might not have lost like half his army following Ichigo.

The Vaizard had merged with the foe that Shingami were sworn to fight. And, lest we forget, weren't sane, nor was their a way, at the time, to think they would regain their sanity. Nor, if I remember correctly, were they actually banished, at least not until after they disappeared with Urahara and the rest

They were insane for like...5 minutes. If captain McMurderDeathKill wouldn't have jumped the gun and tried to have them killed immediately, then maybe they could have actually...ya'know...helped their friends.

As for the other experiments...well, I think that's a consequence of how Soul Society's upper ranks are structured. The Captains are all extremely powerful people, and seem to be given a great deal of leeway in how they conduct their business. Unless what they do directly interfere's with the safety of the world or the dictates of government, they seem to be able to do pretty much whatever they want. Which makes sense: each one is essentially an Achilles, and the Captain-Commander doesn't want to drive his Achilles away to sulk in their tents.

When Achilles is regularly committing atrocities on the populace he's supposed to be protecting? You better get him under control...or don't be surprised when people call you out on it.

[Frozen_Feet]

Kubo pulling He Was Evil All Along on Urahara would be biggest ass-pull in bleach this arc.

Wait, since when has "biggest asspul" meant "makes perfect sense"?

[Tavar]

Fine. So it's just more evidence of him being completely incompetent rather than evil. Thanks for backing me up.

No, it's a case of a subordinate going behind his back. Unless you're suggesting that he should have 100% control over everyone 100% of the time.

So, they wiped out the Quincy and apparently have some kind of grudge with these Quincy. You're really going to argue that these things aren't related? Really?

Wiping out the Quincy was part of the Quincy war. Mayuri's experiments were afterwords and seem to have been kept secret. No clear connection.

Personally, I might...ya'know...try to explain things to that person in order to keep them loyal. Instead of just hoping they arbitrarily side with me with no explanation and ordering their friends to murder them if they don't.

Note they don't really have a chance to before the two of them fight, and by the time they can the decision's already made. Plus, their task was to see him through the decision. I imagine that, if he had started to go the other way, they'd have talked to him first, and only gone for the kill if needed.

Go back and watch/read it again. His argument basically consisted of "no! You may not save your friend! I won't allow it!"

I'll concede that Ichigo wasn't going to listen to him no matter what. Which is just another example of him being incompetent. He just randomly expected Ichigo to follow his orders, despite all evidence to the contrary. However, if he wasn't so blindingly stupid, he might not have lost like half his army following Ichigo.

Right, I was miss-remembering. Though he does point out that they can't put one life over the entire world. Of course, the more important thing is that, at that point, he thinks she's a traitor.

Also, note that he also didn't give him any method to reach HM. So, in normal circumstances, that would solve everything. Sure, Ichigo wants to get their, but he can't exactly do that by himself.

They were insane for like...5 minutes. If captain McMurderDeathKill wouldn't have jumped the gun and tried to have them killed immediately, then maybe they could have actually...ya'know...helped their friends.

Uh...not from what I'm seeing. The only one who appeared to remain sane was Shinji, and he hadn't fully undergone the transformation yet. Plus there's the whole thing that it took them some time to control their powers.

[Tenno Seremel]

I wonder, whether there is a possibility that captain-commander does not have or cannot use his bankai because of what happened 1000 years go…

[Mando Knight]

I think it's more that he's never needed to.

[Tavar]

Isn't is stated somewhere that his Bankai would basically destroy the world? That's a pretty good reason not to use it.

[Socratov]

well, if his shikai is anything to judge by, his bankai would be one mother of an inferno... people don't just give you the nickname captain genocide just for ****s and giggles...

[Frozen_Feet]

Yeah, Ryujin Jakka has got to be the scariest sword in the setting. It's Shikai command is "Reduce all creation to ash", and it's been shown to live up to that pretty well... Didn't Aizen say that the power from Ennetsu Jigoku would've gone past the limits of the Fake Karakura town barrier and reduced rest of the town into rubble if Yama-jii hadn't blocked it with his body?

It's nuclear bomb level energy yield. Bankai, if you take what's stated at face value, is ten times more powerful. Yikes!

[Drolyt]

New Chapter don't cha know.

Spoiler

Show

Any theories about why the bad guy thinks Ishida should be stronger? Also, why are Bleach and Naruto on MS again?

[Turalisj]

MS? English please?

[Socratov]

New Chapter don't cha know.

Spoiler

Show

Any theories about why the bad guy thinks Ishida should be stronger? Also, why are Bleach and Naruto on MS again?

well, one thing could be the fact that Ishida used the ultimate technique and got his powers back. that coupled with some high level techniques, a staggering intellect (he could actually outsmart Mayuri in his fight) and to be able to invent interesting and inventive ways of using his abilities mid battle. It is quite the theme in Bleach that battle inventiveness is quite the edge in fights.

then again, I smell a plot device...

[Drolyt]

MS? English please?

MangaStream.

[tyckspoon]

MS? English please?

Mangastream, noted for their particularly high-quality/readable translation team. They dropped several of the really high-profile series due to a cease-and-desist a while ago, but recently (and quietly) started them up again.

Any theories about why the bad guy thinks Ishida should be stronger? Also, why are Bleach and Naruto on MS again?
well, one thing could be the fact that Ishida used the ultimate technique and got his powers back. that coupled with some high level techniques, a staggering intellect (he could actually outsmart Mayuri in his fight) and to be able to invent interesting and inventive ways of using his abilities mid battle. It is quite the theme in Bleach that battle inventiveness is quite the edge in fights.

Inherited reputation from his father, perhaps. We still don't actually know how powerful Ryuken is, IIRC, but assuming he's got sufficient personal power most people would assume that Uryu both inherited his spiritual capacity and received combat training from him. So Evil-Quincy-Elite-Mook here could be saying "Really? I've fought/sparred with Ryuken, his son shouldn't be weaker than that."

[Drolyt]

I do remember Ryuuken saying something about inheriting Soken's powers and being the true last of the Quincy, so maybe the Vandenreich assumed Ishida had those powers?

[Madara]

Are the Quincy a race/type of being? Or are they based on their abilities?

Are the new mooks maybe half-quincy?

[Anteros]

well, if his shikai is anything to judge by, his bankai would be one mother of an inferno... people don't just give you the nickname captain genocide just for ****s and giggles...

I always felt like the nickname had as much to do with his attitude as his power. I may be biased though. As I made clear earlier in the thread, I don't like the guy.

Re Ishida: I don't think Ichigo has any idea how powerful Ishida is. When is the last time they fought, or he was there to witness Ishida fight seriously?

[Drolyt]

As regards Captain Genocide, I don't think we can take that nickname to mean anything at all about the character, since as far as I'm aware it is a fan nickname.