Was Kubota right?

[dancrilis]

Just rereading the comic again and noted something that I consider every time I see page 414.

Kubota suggests just giving Xykon what he wants*.

On consideration would this have actually been a better move for Azure City then opposing him.

The result would be that the city would have fallen, Xykon would be the new lord, the goblins would likely be in charge (baring some possible exceptions), so very similar to how it is currently.
All without a needless and costly war.

The humans may in fact have slightly better standing, as Xykon (and even Redcloak to an extent) seems more focused on a merit then on other characteristics, and relations with other nations may be better.

Further the gate would be intact and so the universe would be that much safer.

It seems that there would have been no real negatives and some positives to simply surrendering, for the city.

*I understand that Kubota likely did not know that the above would be the price for giving Xykon what he wanted.

[t209]

Just rereading the comic again and noted something that I consider every time I see page 414.

Kubota suggests just giving Xykon what he wants*.

On consideration would this have actually been a better move for Azure City then opposing him.

The result would be that the city would have fallen, Xykon would be the new lord, the goblins would likely be in charge (baring some possible exceptions), so very similar to how it is currently.
All without a needless and costly war.

The humans may in fact have slightly better standing, as Xykon (and even Redcloak to an extent) seems more focused on a merit then on other characteristics, and relations with other nations may be better.

Further the gate would be intact and so the universe would be that much safer.

It seems that there would have been no real negatives and some positives to simply surrendering, for the city.

*I understand that Kubota likely did not know that the above would be the price for giving Xykon what he wanted.

He was not right since he's just a coward and Xykon is a murderous soceror who wants more blood spilled than getting the city.

[Kish]

Xykon and Redcloak would have completed the ritual a long time ago now. Whatever the ritual actually does, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that would be a very bad thing for, at best, everyone who isn't a goblinoid.

[DaveMcW]

Yes, Kubota would be better off as a lawful evil noble in a world ruled by Xykon.

The rest of the world would be screwed of course. If it wasn't destroyed in the ritual.

[Mutant Sheep]

Kubota suggests just giving Xykon what he wants*.

On consideration would this have actually been a better move for Azure City then opposing him.
Further the gate would be intact and so the universe would be that much safer.

So having the high priest of the massive army that you just surrendered to do a ritual with an evil lich to blackmail your gods into creating a world where goblins rule supreme/or universe being unmade would be better than what happened? If Miko just didnt smash the gate, Redcloak and Xykon would both be dead, the goblins would only have cool bearded hobgoblin general around to lead them, and Belkar would die killing the rest of the hobgoblins. I don't see how it could be better, especially since I doubt Xykon would be just "Haha, sure thing. Peace, not murder, paladins get to live and everything". He'd just kill everyone and do the ritual with Redcloak anyways.

Edit: Ninja'd by shorter and more coherent posts.

[eulmanis12]

Kubota was wrong.

That being said, getting out of the way and letting Xycon march straight into the throne room would have worked fairly well. Soon would just kick his butt. The paladins would send someone in with a broom and dustpan to take care of what was left, and life could procede as normal.

[Steward]

I think Xykon's own army would have complicated the situation with the Ghost Paladins. Soon and his people were extremely strong but I think the sheer weight of Xykon's entire horde would have worn them down, and given Xykon an opportunity to attack.

I do think that Kubota was wrong too though. He didn't know that Azure City would lose; they might have even won if he and the other nobles hadn't withdrawn their soldiers and if Miko hadn't stopped Soon from vanquishing Xykon. He was basing his advice solely on his own craven self-interest rather than on any real knowledge that things would definitely be better if Xykon had won without a fight.

[Heksefatter]

Xykon and Redcloak would have taken the gate, unopposed, almost certainly resulting in them seizing control of an unharmed gate. They would also occupy Azure City, since they would need the time to research the ritual and all that. There would be no battle, but the goblins would have reduced the city into slavery anyway, entailing countless massacres.

End result:

- Almost as many of Azure City's inhabitants would die.

- Humans of Azure City reduced into slavery.

- Xykon a greater threat to the rest of the world. Not to mention Redcloak, the Dark One and so forth.

[NerfTW]

.... *snip a full page of dissertation on one statement*

So you do realize that Xykon wanted the gate, right? And that the gate was destroyed in the battle? Had he simply been handed the gate, the ritual would have been completed and the Dark One's plan to hold the gods hostage would have been enacted. Or, well, reality would have been ripped asunder. Either way, totally NOT an acceptable outcome, and nowhere near the same as the city being under enemy control.

Remember that Redcloak KNOWS the ritual. The only reason Tsukiko is researching it is because Xykon wants to cut Redcloak out of the equation, and Redcloak only gave him half the spell. Working together with a gate, Redcloak and Xykon can immediately begin the binding ritual, no research needed. It's the creation of a gate around the rift that they can't do.

[dancrilis]

Well on the ritual, we have no idea what it really will do.
But if the plan goes as Redcloak seems to expect under a best case scenario, then the different playing field for goblins would not make a difference to the situation.

On the paladins, they would likely have been killed, Redcloak has a problem with them, but they died anyway.

There is also no indicating that Xykon and Redcloak would have been dead, even if you accept that Soon would have destroyed them (which ignores Xykon fleeing as he did at the gates explosion), the Goblins still held the city at that stage.
They could have whittled Soon down, retrieved the phylactery and raised Redcloak. Or not, but it is as likely as any other scenario.

Xykon has also shown a willingness to work with people, in fact it is even mentioned that the only reason that he was bothering with an invasion was because they needed access to the gate.

I had not considered this at the time of posting, but Redcloak didn't care about hobgoblins when the idea of surrender was proposed, the humans may have even not be delegated to slaves under this new system, having equality of the races under Xykon and Redcloak.

Now I am not saying that Kubota understood all this, or that he was speaking from the wisdom, in fact I believe that Kubota would have been more likely to turn on Hinjo and claim that he was weak so he could lead the battle and claim the city, but his motives are irrelevant to the idea.

So far most of the negatives about the plan are focused on the ritual, a ritual which might have no immediate impact on the majority of the populace.

Other then that they have been on Xykon being less then pleasant to people, yet he offered Roy the chance to leave (a number of times), it is possible that he could have been negotiated with to have the city evacuated, or any number of other concessions.
Would he have honoured them?
That would be subject to his mood at the time (I would say).

However he has not be slaughtering hobgoblins left and right, so he might be actually interested in a position of power without the responsibility, providing he is in charge he seems happy enough to let other people run things.

Xykon is out to conquer the world, not destroy it or kill everyone, rule it, letting him do so might very well work out better then opposing him and having him seize it.

[Heksefatter]

So you do realize that Xykon wanted the gate, right? And that the gate was destroyed in the battle? Had he simply been handed the gate, the ritual would have been completed and the Dark One's plan to hold the gods hostage would have been enacted. Or, well, reality would have been ripped asunder. Either way, totally NOT an acceptable outcome, and nowhere near the same as the city being under enemy control.

Remember that Redcloak KNOWS the ritual. The only reason Tsukiko is researching it is because Xykon wants to cut Redcloak out of the equation, and Redcloak only gave him half the spell. Working together with a gate, Redcloak and Xykon can immediately begin the binding ritual, no research needed. It's the creation of a gate around the rift that they can't do.

A question that may well be born of my ignorance:

Why didn't they just complete the ritual while at Durokan's gate? I thought they needed more, even back then.

[dancrilis]

A question that may well be born of my ignorance:

Why didn't they just complete the ritual while at Durokan's gate? I thought they needed more, even back then.

The gates were protected differently, Durokan's was sealed Xykon needed a way around the seal
277.

[King of Nowhere]

1) if they gave Xykon the intact gate, xykon would have probably completed the ritual

2) they could not know beforehand that they would lose, and they tougth they stood a fair chance.

Incidentally, analysis of that forum agreed instead that they were pretty much screwed up because Xykon alone could have destroied the city. By letting himself be isolated by redcloak and going, low in hp and spells, toe-to-toe with the only charachter presenting a threath to him, Xykon almost managed the ONLY possible way team evil could have lost the day. Remember, Soon could not have sougth him in he battlefield. Xykon could have gone out of the throne room at any moment and be perfectly safe. Anyway, the azurites did not know that.

According to this, the best option for the azurites would have been to just blow the gate. Xykon would have lost interest in it, so with some luck the city would have been spared.
Without some luck, redcloak would have convinced xykon to destroy the city anyway, oor xykon would have done it for fun, because he already brougth the army in place...

[Heksefatter]

The gates were protected differently, Durokan's was sealed Xykon needed a way around the seal
277.

Nice attention to detail. Thank you!

[Dr.Epic]

Are you actually saying it would have been better to give the insane, crazy, villain exactly what they wanted to spare one battle which instead would most definitely have lead to torment on a global if not cosmic scale?

[Belril Duskwalk]

A question that may well be born of my ignorance:

Why didn't they just complete the ritual while at Durokan's gate? I thought they needed more, even back then.

Judging by this comic the Gate was probably bound by a spell that could only be broken by a "pure-hearted" person, similar to how the Sigil's locked the Talisman away. Thus, Redcloak and Xykon couldn't perform the ritual until they unlocked the physical gates around the meta-physical gate.

[Cranica]

Given his limited information, as much of a **** as he is, I think he actually was. Kubota didn't know about what the Gates do, or even about the Gates themselves; in light of that simply surrendering against hostile odds isn't such a bad idea. Of course, with all the facts, it would have been stupid; Kubota didn't have them.

[Vahir]

Well on the ritual, we have no idea what it really will do.
But if the plan goes as Redcloak seems to expect under a best case scenario, then the different playing field for goblins would not make a difference to the situation.

On the paladins, they would likely have been killed, Redcloak has a problem with them, but they died anyway.

There is also no indicating that Xykon and Redcloak would have been dead, even if you accept that Soon would have destroyed them (which ignores Xykon fleeing as he did at the gates explosion), the Goblins still held the city at that stage.
They could have whittled Soon down, retrieved the phylactery and raised Redcloak. Or not, but it is as likely as any other scenario.

Xykon has also shown a willingness to work with people, in fact it is even mentioned that the only reason that he was bothering with an invasion was because they needed access to the gate.

I had not considered this at the time of posting, but Redcloak didn't care about hobgoblins when the idea of surrender was proposed, the humans may have even not be delegated to slaves under this new system, having equality of the races under Xykon and Redcloak.

Now I am not saying that Kubota understood all this, or that he was speaking from the wisdom, in fact I believe that Kubota would have been more likely to turn on Hinjo and claim that he was weak so he could lead the battle and claim the city, but his motives are irrelevant to the idea.

So far most of the negatives about the plan are focused on the ritual, a ritual which might have no immediate impact on the majority of the populace.

Other then that they have been on Xykon being less then pleasant to people, yet he offered Roy the chance to leave (a number of times), it is possible that he could have been negotiated with to have the city evacuated, or any number of other concessions.
Would he have honoured them?
That would be subject to his mood at the time (I would say).

However he has not be slaughtering hobgoblins left and right, so he might be actually interested in a position of power without the responsibility, providing he is in charge he seems happy enough to let other people run things.

Xykon is out to conquer the world, not destroy it or kill everyone, rule it, letting him do so might very well work out better then opposing him and having him seize it.

This feels like a troll thread.

I mean, Xykon and redcloak promoting equality? Have we been reading the same comic here?

[Steward]

Honestly, I think the humans of Azure City had more to fear from Redcloak than Xykon in the event of a surrender. Redcloak is a violent racist with a penchant for slavery and mass destruction. He's not wholly unreasonable or sociopathic, but it is not safe to just assume that he'll show mercy to any humans... especially the tribe of humans who tried to destroy his religion and exterminate his own people.

[Whiffet]

By letting himself be isolated by redcloak and going, low in hp and spells, toe-to-toe with the only charachter presenting a threath to him, Xykon almost managed the ONLY possible way team evil could have lost the day.

Just a nitpick: Xykon was not low in hp when he entered the throne room. Yes, Roy managed to damage Xykon a bit, but then Tsukiko joined Team Evil and healed Xykon with Inflict Critical Wounds.

Unless you meant Xykon was low in hp when he was fighting Soon as Redcloak "turned" the ghost-martyrs, in which case... Redcloak used a Harm and healed him before Xykon went one-on-one against Soon.

Again, just a nitpick, nothing too important.

[Tulya]

Xykon doesn't need a reason to slaughter people en masse, and has done so repeatedly. If you complied with him and stuck around at all, you'd be eventually killed for his enjoyment, and then raised as undead. This is a repeated trend for Xykon, and part of a recurring trope that I don't know the name of: You don't make deals with Team Evil.

Even WITH the war intended, the Azurites evacuated as many people as they could, barring selfish nobles like Kubota. And despite that, Hinjo's private junk was extremely full.

By fighting, the Azurites slowed Xykon down and his army down, and could very well have stopped both him and Redcloak once and for all without the reckless arrogance of Miko.
I doubt the occupying Hobgoblin army, minus Xykon and Redcloak, could have withstood a siege by the remaining Azurites and the surviving members of the Order of the Stick. Start each day with some defensive buffs, clear out large swaths of Hobgoblins, retreat, and repeat.

[Morthis]

There is also no indicating that Xykon and Redcloak would have been dead, even if you accept that Soon would have destroyed them (which ignores Xykon fleeing as he did at the gates explosion), the Goblins still held the city at that stage.
They could have whittled Soon down, retrieved the phylactery and raised Redcloak. Or not, but it is as likely as any other scenario.

Odds are Soon wouldn't even be able to by damaged by non-magical weapons, I don't see any real way the goblins coulda worn him down unless the ghost version of Soon still needs to sleep, which I doubt.

Xykon has also shown a willingness to work with people, in fact it is even mentioned that the only reason that he was bothering with an invasion was because they needed access to the gate.

Xykon considers watching people die to be pretty funny and has consistently shown he has absolutely no respect for life. I would not feel even the least bit comfortable yielding to a person like that and praying he'll decide to be nice.

I had not considered this at the time of posting, but Redcloak didn't care about hobgoblins when the idea of surrender was proposed, the humans may have even not be delegated to slaves under this new system, having equality of the races under Xykon and Redcloak.

You think he lets them enslave humans because he cares about hobgoblins? What? How does that even make sense?

So far most of the negatives about the plan are focused on the ritual, a ritual which might have no immediate impact on the majority of the populace.

Yeah, and someone might also survive jumping from the third floor window, doesn't mean we'll be lining up to try. This ritual, at best, gives control of the gate to the dark one, who may use it for equality, or may simply decide that it's their turn to be the favored race and reverse the roles between humans and goblins. At worst the world is simply destroyed entirely, with all souls completely un-made, no afterlife, no nothing.

Other then that they have been on Xykon being less then pleasant to people, yet he offered Roy the chance to leave (a number of times), it is possible that he could have been negotiated with to have the city evacuated, or any number of other concessions.

Yeah Xykon likes to play with his food. Roy's antics really just amused him because they posed absolutely no threat. His offers to let Roy try again didn't come from compassion, or anything of that nature, he just offered that to make things more interesting.

However he has not be slaughtering hobgoblins left and right, so he might be actually interested in a position of power without the responsibility, providing he is in charge he seems happy enough to let other people run things.

He had O'chull to keep him interested, and he may still have killed hobgoblins anyway, no real way to know.

SoD spoiler

Spoiler

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While waiting outside Durokan's castle trying to draw him out he also got Right-Eye's entire family (minus the daughter) killed for no other reason than his personal entertainment. It's been quite clear so far that when Xykon is bored, he enjoys killing things to pass the time.

Xykon is out to conquer the world, not destroy it or kill everyone, rule it, letting him do so might very well work out better then opposing him and having him seize it.

He might destroy it if he was really bored, and otherwise I have serious doubts he'd suddenly stop killing things for fun.

SoD again

Spoiler

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When he first agreed to go along with this, he was still human and dying wanting a legacy. Ever since he's become a Lich, he's still going along with the plan, but the legacy seems to be less of a concern for him now. It looks to me like now he's just trying to do things to keep himself entertained. I can't imagine how someone can read SoD and think that Xykon would be anything but an abusive and oppressive ruler.

[Steward]

Odds are Soon wouldn't even be able to by damaged by non-magical weapons, I don't see any real way the goblins coulda worn him down unless the ghost version of Soon still needs to sleep, which I doubt.

It's not so much that they would have been wear down Soon (and his team) physically, but their clerics -- of which there are quite a few -- might have been able to rebuke or destroy at least some of the ghost martyrs. This would weaken Soon's advantage (and give Redcloak and Xykon the opportunity to focus entirely on him). It would not have been good news for Soon (and the city, and the world) if the Azure City military had followed Kubota's advice and stood aside and just let Xykon walk in, on the hopes that Soon could kill Xykon, Redcloak, the Monster, and the entire hobgoblin army.

He might destroy it if he was really bored, and otherwise I have serious doubts he'd suddenly stop killing things for fun.

That's an excellent point. Add in that I'm not convinced that Xykon will be able to control the Snarl for all eternity, and honestly, letting him that much power is a bad idea.

[Tulya]

It's not so much that they would have been wear down Soon (and his team) physically, but their clerics -- of which there are quite a few -- might have been able to rebuke or destroy at least some of the ghost martyrs.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

Seems like they might not have been able to. Consecrate probably gives a
-6 sacred penalty to turning positive energy spirits, much like Desecrate with undead. That means the clerics are going to be turning, on average, 2 HD below their turning level. They can try repeatedly, but in the meantime, they'll be slashed up pretty badly.

[jidasfire]

I've always maintained that Hinjo should have let Kubota go talk to Xykon and ask him what he wants. I imagine the conversation would have gone something like this:

Kubota: If you're looking for someone to help you get into the city, I'm your man. Just let me rule it after you're gone and Hinjo's all yours.

Xykon: Sorry, Fu Manchu, I have a better idea.

::Xykon kills Kubota and animates his corpse.::

Redcloak: Sir, we could have used him.

Xykon: Hey, we still can! My keys have been missing for weeks...

After that, the treacherous nobles who were looking for an excuse to back out of the war would probably fallen in behind Hinjo, out of fear for their own safety if nothing else. Would have been one less problem for the Azurites to deal with, and the added soldiers could have made at least a little difference, not to mention no assassination squads on Hinjo during battle.

[Omergideon]

So, in short...............No.

Surrendering to the mass murdering Lich (who kills whenever bored, or when he feels like it, or any other time) and the Evil Goblin Priest (who hates humans with pure hatred) who have a plan to threaten to rip reality asunder with a world destroying thingy unless the Gods back down........................does not seem wise. Even without the plan bit the whole "surrender to the Goblin army with an Epic level sorcerer who probably could solo our regular army and gets bored reeeaal easy" is not the smartest strategy.

[M.A.D]

Since they can't move the gate, giving it to Xykon means giving him the city, allowing an evil mass murderer to walk their streets and enter their homes, along with an army of hobgoblin. More human would have been killed (for Xykon's personal enjoyment and Redcloak's regenve) and they would still occupy the city.

[Dark Matter]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

Seems like they might not have been able to. Consecrate probably gives a
-6 sacred penalty to turning positive energy spirits, much like Desecrate with undead. That means the clerics are going to be turning, on average, 2 HD below their turning level. They can try repeatedly, but in the meantime, they'll be slashed up pretty badly.

Redcloak started the Thrown Room battle low on spells and with the wrong spells. With 24 hours notice he casts Desecrate twice, once to get rid of Consecrate and once to make it work. Evil Clerics get a +6 bonus instead of taking a -6 penalty.

If we're assuming 24 hours notice and the right information, then Redcloak probably solos the room, maybe leaving every now and then for lesser Clerics to heal him. Multiple Area Inflicts probably get the job done.

Soon is anchored to the gate room and he can't destroy the gate himself.

Worse case, Xykon goes in, kills as many as he can, then leaves and is healed by lesser Clerics. Yeah, those massive spells he has only have a 50% chance of zapping a ghost, but they're area. Repeat as needed, wait until tomorrow for Xykon to get his spells back as needed.

If they have the city, then team evil wins.

[dancrilis]

I think a lot of people are focusing on Xykon being a bad guy and therefore doing bad things, sure I can accept that for the purpose of this discussion.

However the bad things he does are normally fairly minor for his amusement, or fairly major for a specific plan, or fairly major if he is significantly annoyed.

Not torching a city that he can make use of seems like something he might very well do.
Would life be pleasant for the people?
Probably not for the majority, however would it really be any worse for the citizens of Azure city then the current system?
I don't think it would be.

The other issue that people mention is if Xykon gets the gate, does the ritual and something bad happens.
But the plan does not necessitate universal destruction, in fact that is something is more likely to occur from people not giving Xykon the gate.

On the blackmail of the gods, we have no idea if the Dark One's plan is feasible, if it were then why has no other evil god tried it?
We also have no idea if he told Redcloak the truth by way of the Crimson Mantle.

However assuming that everything goes according to Redcloak's understanding of the plan it would simply provide a level playing.

So ignoring all possible results of the ritual (of which the stated plan is not that bad), and focusing on the citizenship under Xykon as alive rather then under Xykon as corpses, I don't really see how how surrendering would be likely worse then fighting - yes Xykon could have killed everyone for giggles (which I don't think likely), but he could have done that anyway.

[SowZ]

Azure City had no logical reason to surrender, though, since they had the power to stop the invasion. And they should have won, barring a freak thing no one could have predicted.