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    Default Defense against implosion

    So now that we now Redcloak can cast implosion, how does the OOTS keep from being slaughtered in one round? What tactical options are there?


    As a starter, I'm thinking along the following lines ...

    1) Implosion has a range of 25 feet, so engage redcloak from > 25 feet away. Redcloak uses protection from arrows, but Haley's magical bow can probably overcome that.

    2) Vaarsuvius uses counterspell. Problem: Implosion is level 9 and Vaarsuvius can't cast level 9. Can Vaarsuvius counter implosion? Assuming Vaarsuvius rejoins the party?

    3) Decoys. Have Elan create multiple illusions. If Redcloak can be tricked into wasting spell slots on illusions, that's less damage for the party to take. Come to think of it, this works against disintegration too.

    4) Fortitude-boosting items and feats such as Great Fortitude. How high does fortitude have to be in order to make a fortitude save vs. implosion 4 times in a row? Does Roy have that ability? Could he simply absorb the attack, causing Redcloak to waste his spell and a round?

    5) Fizzle. If something can disrupt Redcloak's spellcasting, such as constant melee attacks, Redcloak will lose most of his arsenal. Roy or Belkar could do this if they can get in range. Perhaps use invisibility to hide Belkar until he can jump onto Redcloak? But won't Redcloak have true seeing to stop this?

    6) Anti-magic field. The problem with this is that it negates Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. Also, the Crimson Mantle may be able to defeat the anti-magic field. Notice that in Start of Darkness Redcloak was able to continue to function magically in a similar magic-suppressing environment.

    Am I missing anything? How else could this be done?

    Corrollary question: Is it likely that Redcloak will use implosion against high-level adventurers? Or is it best used as crowd control against low-level creatures with horrible saves?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Ohh ohhh! Elan sings a specially written song, giving everybody awesome plotsaves.

    Really, I don't see Rich just TPK-ing the order, especially Elan. They'll make their saves, or Redcloak will just not use implosion due to being level drained.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    7) Make sure he gets it's not in his best interest to even engage you.
    8) Make sure you are not facing him.

    The best fight is the one you can evade. And all of the above means the Order already know about this specific danger (well, if they are smart and cautious they assume Redcloak was level 17+ and plan with that from the start).

    If the order faces Team Evil or a part of Team Evil in an open fight it's probably going to end badly anyway for them.

    Of your options, the only real choice seems to be 5).

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    7) Make sure he gets it's not in his best interest to even engage you.
    8) Make sure you are not facing him.

    The best fight is the one you can evade. And all of the above means the Order already know about this specific danger (well, if they are smart and cautious they assume Redcloak was level 17+ and plan with that from the start).

    If the order faces Team Evil or a part of Team Evil in an open fight it's probably going to end badly anyway for them.

    Of your options, the only real choice seems to be 5).
    Regrettably, the OOTS are classic heroes in that they insist on taking on the hard challenges themselves. Unlike Tarquin, who is intelligent enough to hang back and let other people do the hard work, then tackle the protagonists when they are exhausted, the OOTS looks like they will "heroically" crawl through Durkon's dungeon, then get caught in a three-way battle with Tarquin and Redcloak.

    Which means it's very likely they will directly engage Redcloak. Because it's Roy, Mr. "I jump on the back of dragons" leading the party, not Haley.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Well, this all assumes that the Order knows Redcloak has this spell, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    So now that we now Redcloak can cast implosion, how does the OOTS keep from being slaughtered in one round? What tactical options are there?
    Well, for one, just have Roy and Belkar be the only ones who get close enough for him to use it. Their fortitude saves are probably high enough to withstand it, and he can only even try it once on each.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    1) Implosion has a range of 25 feet, so engage redcloak from > 25 feet away. Redcloak uses protection from arrows, but Haley's magical bow can probably overcome that.
    That'd work too.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    2) Vaarsuvius uses counterspell. Problem: Implosion is level 9 and Vaarsuvius can't cast level 9. Can Vaarsuvius counter implosion? Assuming Vaarsuvius rejoins the party?
    Vaarsuvius can't directly counterspell it regardless, since Implosion is a cleric-only spell. She could try to counterspell with Greater Dispel Magic and rely on a good dispel roll, or Durkon could try to counterspell it regularly if he reaches level 17 before the next time they face off.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    3) Decoys. Have Elan create multiple illusions. If Redcloak can be tricked into wasting spell slots on illusions, that's less damage for the party to take. Come to think of it, this works against disintegration too.
    Might or might not be feasible. Elan's hardly perfect at creating believable illusions, and I'd bet Redcloak can easily make his will save to disbelieve them if anything at all is off about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    4) Fortitude-boosting items and feats such as Great Fortitude. How high does fortitude have to be in order to make a fortitude save vs. implosion 4 times in a row? Does Roy have that ability? Could he simply absorb the attack, causing Redcloak to waste his spell and a round?
    You don't need to save against implosion four times in a row - the spell specifies that it can only target an individual creature once per casting. One save per character will do it. As I said above, I'd wager that Roy and Belkar can make their saves pretty easily - their classes give them great fortitude saves already, and they both likely have good constitution on top of that. No need to waste a feat on something as minor as Great Fortitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    5) Fizzle. If something can disrupt Redcloak's spellcasting, such as constant melee attacks, Redcloak will lose most of his arsenal.
    Unless Redcloak has skimped on his cocentration skill, that's unlikely to work at his level. Maybe Roy could deal enough damage in a single strike to disrupt his concentration, but that's still just a maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    6) Anti-magic field. The problem with this is that it negates Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. Also, the Crimson Mantle may be able to defeat the anti-magic field. Notice that in Start of Darkness [snipped]
    One, spoiler the SoD reference. Two,
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    No, that's not what happened there. It was a virus that caused Xykon to lose his magic in that incident, and the Crimson Mantle renders Redcloak immune to diseases, so he never lost his magic. We have no reason to believe it also defeats Anti-Magic Field, though I suppose we can't totally rule it out given how little we know about the extent of the Mantle's abilities.

    Anyway though, this would likely work in general. Have Durkon be the one to cast it and keep Vaarsuvius well outside the range of the spell, preferably dealing with some other theat entirely, and you're good.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Corrollary question: Is it likely that Redcloak will use implosion against high-level adventurers? Or is it best used as crowd control against low-level creatures with horrible saves?
    It actually strikes me more as most useful against high-level arcane spellcasters with terrible fortitude saves, or mid-level opponents that could be a threat but don't yet have good enough saves to deal with it. Against low-level creatures, you're better off with more traditional, larger-scale crowd control methods, like Flamestrike, or Mass Inflict <X> Wounds.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    If V has Improved Counterspell, can't s/he use any 9th-level evocation to counter it? (If s/he reaches 17th level, of course.)
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    That *might* happen for the final gate but it will not be that far for this one here (and it seems Team Evil is about to leave the city).

    An awesome idea to evade getting imploded: The Order lets the Linear Guild get imploded until Redcloak runs out of Implosions.
    Last edited by Ancalagon; 2012-01-11 at 03:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    It's also vulnerable to Spell Resistance, so casting that might help as well.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    1) Implosion has a range of 25 feet, so engage redcloak from > 25 feet away.
    25 feet + 5 ft/2 levels. Since this is a new spell level for RC, that puts him at level 17 for a range of 25 + 5 * INT(17/2) = 65 feet. I'd gather that most combat in D&D (and OOtS) takes place well within a 65' radius circle.
    Last edited by Sky_Schemer; 2012-01-11 at 03:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Or, you could take a page out of O-chul's book and remove his holy symbol. Redcloak might put a backup one in his pocket due to lessons learned from said O-chul, but he may be too busy trying to make sure you don't run away with Xykon's phylactery to get it out.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    [nitpick]Protection from Arrows is a Sor/Wiz only spell[/nitpick]

    Implosion isn't the real issue here. Sure, it's a pretty powerful spell, but Redcloak is probably only a few levels higher than the OotS team (since Durkon has to be at least level 13 to be able to cast holy word) and half of the OotS team (Roy, Durkon and Belkar) have good Fortitude saves.

    The real issue is that Redcloak can cast miracle. I'm worried about how he'll be using that spell.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    I doubt that redcloak would prepare implosion every day. I think he only prepared implosion this day because he planned on attacking the resistance which are all mid-level with mid to low fortitude saves.

    If he knew he would be battling high level characters he would prepare energy drain if Xykon is not along or miracle. One energy drain pretty much disables V or Drukon and a Miracle casted by Redcloak would have full plot powers plus copying any 7th level wizard spell is a very nice bonus.
    Last edited by hoff; 2012-01-11 at 03:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm

    Spell Turning would do it in a fairly messy way.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    [QUOTE=NeoSeraphi;12513891][nitpick]Protection from Arrows is a Sor/Wiz only spell[/nitpick]

    Maybe so but note that in the current strip an archer fired at Redcloak, and the arrow was deflected. It may not be protection from arrows, but Redcloak has some kind of protection against mundane missile attack.

    Respectfully,

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagaesian View Post
    Or, you could take a page out of O-chul's book and remove his holy symbol. Redcloak might put a backup one in his pocket due to lessons learned from said O-chul, but he may be too busy trying to make sure you don't run away with Xykon's phylactery to get it out.
    Implosion doesn't require a holy symbol.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoff View Post
    I doubt that redcloak would prepare implosion every day. I think he only prepared implosion this day because he planned on attacking the resistance which are all mid-level with mid to low fortitude saves.
    It's a domain spell for him. His only alternative to it is Summon Monster IX, limited to lawful creatures. Given the choice between Implosion and Summon Monster IX (which almost might as well be Summon Barbed Devil with the alignment limitation), I'd go with Implosion regardless of expected opponent level. Anyone high enough level to reliably make the save is also high enough level to not consider a Barbed Devil to be a serious threat.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Couldn't Durkon counter with a Masked Depth Gourd?

    Death Ward blocks "all death spells and magical death effects," and I am pretty sure implosion qualifies. If Durkon gets his spell straightened out, he will almost certainly cast it at the start of an encounter vs. team evil. The only problem would be dispelling, which team evil seems fond of.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredAmeoba View Post
    Couldn't Durkon counter with a Masked Depth Gourd?

    Death Ward blocks "all death spells and magical death effects," and I am pretty sure implosion qualifies. If Durkon gets his spell straightened out, he will almost certainly cast it at the start of an encounter vs. team evil. The only problem would be dispelling, which team evil seems fond of.
    Afraid not. Implosion may be a save-or-die, but it doesn't have the [death] descriptor, and the [death] descriptor is what determines whether a spell is a death effect or not.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Maybe so but note that in the current strip an archer fired at Redcloak, and the arrow was deflected. It may not be protection from arrows, but Redcloak has some kind of protection against mundane missile attack.

    Respectfully,

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    Most likely, that's Shield of Faith. It's a first-level spell that provides a +2 to +5 (level-dependent, Redcloak would be getting +4 at his level) deflection bonus to AC. Clerics don't actually get anything that provides certain protection against arrows, they most just get a lot of buffs that can raise their stats in various ways.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    1) Implosion has a range of 25 feet, so engage redcloak from > 25 feet away. Redcloak uses protection from arrows, but Haley's magical bow can probably overcome that.
    Here's the range listing I see in d20srd.

    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    So we're looking at 65 ft range right now.

    2) Vaarsuvius uses counterspell. Problem: Implosion is level 9 and Vaarsuvius can't cast level 9. Can Vaarsuvius counter implosion? Assuming Vaarsuvius rejoins the party?
    This is difficult to say. Technically you can only counterspell something if you have the exact same spell prepared, but the comic does not seem to consider these rules. Even with improved counterspell, you need to have spells one spell level higher of the right school, so V would need level 10 evocation spells (which means V would need to be epic).

    3) Decoys. Have Elan create multiple illusions. If Redcloak can be tricked into wasting spell slots on illusions, that's less damage for the party to take. Come to think of it, this works against disintegration too.
    Will is a high saving throw for clerics and RC would get to add his wisdom to it as well, he's very unlikely to fail this save and fall for the illusions. I also have doubts Elan will be able to maintain his illusions when under the stress of a party member (especially Haley) potentially getting killed. He's never shown much control over his illusions in the past.

    4) Fortitude-boosting items and feats such as Great Fortitude. How high does fortitude have to be in order to make a fortitude save vs. implosion 4 times in a row? Does Roy have that ability? Could he simply absorb the attack, causing Redcloak to waste his spell and a round?
    Well we don't know RC's wisdom modifier, but the base DC is 19, and the absolute minimum wisdom modifier he has is +4 (needed to cast level 9 spells), but it's probably a fair bit higher than that. Meanwhile V (who likely has no con bonus as elf) has only +5 from being wizard, it'll be virtually impossible for him to make that saving throw, with or without bonuses. Really, Elan, V and Haley are all extremely likely to die to an implosion simply because their classes have bad fortitude saves.

    5) Fizzle. If something can disrupt Redcloak's spellcasting, such as constant melee attacks, Redcloak will lose most of his arsenal. Roy or Belkar could do this if they can get in range. Perhaps use invisibility to hide Belkar until he can jump onto Redcloak? But won't Redcloak have true seeing to stop this?
    This seems rather unlikely given RC's level, but it's possible I guess.

    6) Anti-magic field. The problem with this is that it negates Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. Also, the Crimson Mantle may be able to defeat the anti-magic field. Notice that in Start of Darkness Redcloak was able to continue to function magically in a similar magic-suppressing environment.
    The problem is you wouldn't be able to get close to shut down his spellcasting before he's already seen what you are doing, and can simply use gate to get help like he did in the current comic. Those creatures would not disappear in the anti-magic field and I highly doubt the oots can defeat whatever RC decided to call through the gate without any use of magic or magic items.

    Corrollary question: Is it likely that Redcloak will use implosion against high-level adventurers? Or is it best used as crowd control against low-level creatures with horrible saves?
    I'd say it's extremely likely he would use this spell, starting with V as his first target. Redcloak seems to have a fairly good understanding of the D&D rules, so he'd know to target the casters first, and of the two casters in the party, Durkon has high fort saves as cleric, and high con as dwarf, while V has terrible fort saves as wizard, and terrible con as elf. It's almost a guaranteed kill on V. If I were using implosion, for my 4 targets I'd go with V, Durkon, Haley, Elan. Durkon is in there despite his high saving throw because he's a more important target than Roy/Belkar (who also have high fort saves) and he may just fail his save, meanwhile the other 3 are almost guaranteed to fail.
    Last edited by Morthis; 2012-01-11 at 06:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by Morthis View Post
    It's almost a guaranteed kill on V.
    So what are the odds that V thinks Spell Turning is worth a spell slot...?

    Quite high, I'd guess, if she has any advance warning of the battle. In her position, it's the sort of thing I'd have a couple of scrolls of.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    I'm sorry, but I'm a 4e player and don't know much about 3.5e magic.

    Couldn't Redcloak cast 9th level spells like Implosion at 9th level?

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    No.

    Table. Observe.

    4ed is really nothing like 3.xed. I mean, 3.xed isn't much like 2ed, and is less like 1ed...but 3.5ed to 4ed is really a bigger change than the change all the way from D&D-no-A to 3.5ed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adoendithas View Post
    I'm sorry, but I'm a 4e player and don't know much about 3.5e magic.

    Couldn't Redcloak cast 9th level spells like Implosion at 9th level?
    Nope. 3.5's spell levels and class levels are separate, you can start casting 9th-level (the highest non-epic spells) at class level 17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    1) Implosion has a range of 25 feet, so engage redcloak from > 25 feet away. Redcloak uses protection from arrows, but Haley's magical bow can probably overcome that.
    +5 feet every 2 levels. So Redcloak can cast it from at least 65 feet away.

    2) Vaarsuvius uses counterspell. Problem: Implosion is level 9 and Vaarsuvius can't cast level 9. Can Vaarsuvius counter implosion? Assuming Vaarsuvius rejoins the party?
    Well, he can't get a guaranteed counterspell, but he can try using Greater Dispel Magic as a counterspell. Assuming V's level is lower, the chances of success aren't great, but he can at least try. Durkon can always counterspell it if he gets 9th level spells and prepares it.

    3) Decoys. Have Elan create multiple illusions. If Redcloak can be tricked into wasting spell slots on illusions, that's less damage for the party to take. Come to think of it, this works against disintegration too.
    We've seen him use True Sight before; unless it's a surprise attack, he'd probably have that cast on him when they attack.

    4) Fortitude-boosting items and feats such as Great Fortitude. How high does fortitude have to be in order to make a fortitude save vs. implosion 4 times in a row? Does Roy have that ability? Could he simply absorb the attack, causing Redcloak to waste his spell and a round?
    Protection from Spells (or something similarly named) can give them nice resistance bonuses to their saves if V casts it on the party

    5) Fizzle. If something can disrupt Redcloak's spellcasting, such as constant melee attacks, Redcloak will lose most of his arsenal. Roy or Belkar could do this if they can get in range. Perhaps use invisibility to hide Belkar until he can jump onto Redcloak? But won't Redcloak have true seeing to stop this?
    Well, Roy has that feat designed to fizzle caster spells.

    6) Anti-magic field. The problem with this is that it negates Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. Also, the Crimson Mantle may be able to defeat the anti-magic field. Notice that in Start of Darkness Redcloak was able to continue to function magically in a similar magic-suppressing environment.
    Anti-Magic+Grapple could be effective. Durkon would be the best to cast it, since V is more dependent on utilizing magic.
    Last edited by Blisstake; 2012-01-11 at 09:11 PM.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Improve your saving throws, but in the end its like that duel between Redcloak and the late high priest of the twelve gods, roll high or die.

    Last too panels and that implosion "special effect" make me wonder if Rich has been playing DDO ... hope he is in Argonessen server!

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

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    What if tanking Implosions is how Belkar dies heroically in a blaze of gore and glory? Clean way to kill a PC: body's destroyed, can't be raised easily.
    Then you will know the rules, and the rules will set you free.

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Well, I think that if the hated Redcloak tries to use Implosion, it would be against Roy, since he is a "Charge towards the enemy" man. He would surely pass his first saving throw, and then use his nice "Dispel Strike" then his "Behead-Gobbo" attack and finally his "Avenge the Team Peregrine, every paladin, every Azurite and Every Human".


    Seriously, when you have seen how Redcloak kills the Peregrine, is still anybody here rooting for him?

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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    ...I never was rooting for Redcloak to complete the Plan, though every time you post I become more likely to do so, I'd be thrilled if he reformed and had a happy ending, and I'm very glad to say your expressed wishes for him to be tortured to death and the series to end with a reinforcement of "goblins are XP fodder and should never be anything more" are even less likely to be realized than Redcloak outright winning, but "killing Team Peregrine" isn't even a blip on the radar.

    Seriously, your concluding question doesn't even mention the actually innocent and sympathetic people in the Resistance, just the led-by-a-horrible-racist-and-none-of-the-others-have-shown-personalities Team Peregrine. I will never understand you.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-01-13 at 09:41 PM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Since nobody else has mentioned it, Implosion explicitly doesn't work on creatures in gaseous form. That wouldn't help the weapon-users in the party much, since it'd also shut down their attacks, but it might be a good idea for V, if e has stilled, silent spells or ongoing emanations.

    Another option is a Silence spell cast on one of the melee guys, to prevent spellcasting with verbal components. There are ways around that, of course, but it's difficult to cast a ninth-level spell silently. The main drawback, of course, is that it'd mean we'd miss out on the inevitable wisecracks.

    An anti-magic field is probably still the best bet, though, cast by either Durkon or by Haley or Elan (via UMDing a scroll). If they were just up against Redcloak, it might be debatable, but they've got two or three seriously powerful spellcasters they need to deal with. Yeah, Xykon (being epic) would be able to deal with it, but it'd still hamper him more than just about anything else the party can pull.
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    Default Re: Defense against implosion

    Quote Originally Posted by Souhiro View Post
    Seriously, when you have seen how Redcloak kills the Peregrine, is still anybody here rooting for him?
    Yeah, pretty much what Kish said. Killing Team Peregrine hasn't changed my thoughts on Redcloak at all, and my biggest wish for him is that he has a change of heart by the end, turns on Xykon, and that he somehow gets his wish of greater equality for Goblins among humanoids in a more humane way than he is trying to now. Heck, I hope he gets to keep Gobbotopia even - the remnants of Azure City have a place to settle down now, so there's no purpose to forcing the Goblins out of it, and much to be gained by allowing them to have their own homeland there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Another option is a Silence spell cast on one of the melee guys, to prevent spellcasting with verbal components. There are ways around that, of course, but it's difficult to cast a ninth-level spell silently. The main drawback, of course, is that it'd mean we'd miss out on the inevitable wisecracks.
    Yeah, one of those ways around it being "walk outside of it on your turn." Without someone with Improved Trip, good grappling talent, or some other way to keep Redcloak in one place, he can just move outside the silence spell's radius before casting on each of his turns and it won't inhibit him one bit.

    Zevox
    Last edited by Zevox; 2012-01-13 at 01:39 PM.
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