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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    So it's essentially two-dimensional?

    EDIT: I realized I never did Summer's HP. Mostly because it doesn't specify in the 16 how we're doing it. Shall I roll, or take average, or what?

  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Yup. 2D.

    I vote for wall of pain and assay spell resistance.
    Last edited by Carr0t; 2012-08-17 at 01:51 AM.
    Anybody else want to negotiate?
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    Gabriel Strazza - Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    I'll really be off on vacation in just under four hours. Until then...

    EDIT: I realized I never did Summer's HP. Mostly because it doesn't specify in the 16 how we're doing it. Shall I roll, or take average, or what?
    The first several levels are maximum hit points. Afterwards I think 3/4? Yeah, I think it was levels 1-6 maximum, afterwards 3/4.

  4. - Top - End - #574
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Given those choices, Wall of Pain would be my pick as well, if Mal is okay with a horizontal wall. If it helps, Mead now has access to a 1/day dimension door, for those "when it absolutely, positively has to get there" moments.
    Currently climbing out of a heckofa two weeks at work/RL. Now working to catch up. Thanks for your patience.

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  5. - Top - End - #575
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    Given those choices, Wall of Pain would be my pick as well, if Mal is okay with a horizontal wall. If it helps, Mead now has access to a 1/day dimension door, for those "when it absolutely, positively has to get there" moments.
    That, and Rita has Dimension Door through the staff she recently received.

    Note that Wall of Stone, despite the name, can be built horizontally (the spell specifically describes you can use it as a bridge) and even that spell specifies dimensions, whereas Wall of Pain does not.

    I'm set on Wall of Pain (barring DM fiat from Mal) and Baleful Blink. One more now.

  6. - Top - End - #576
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Quote Originally Posted by Psydon View Post
    That, and Rita has Dimension Door through the staff she recently received.

    Note that Wall of Stone, despite the name, can be built horizontally (the spell specifically describes you can use it as a bridge) and even that spell specifies dimensions, whereas Wall of Pain does not.

    I'm set on Wall of Pain (barring DM fiat from Mal) and Baleful Blink. One more now.
    Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, Mass Enlarge Person?
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  7. - Top - End - #577
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Have the first, can't cast the second, and I don't know if the third would be that great for our party.

    How many of us would really benefit from Enlarge Person?

    Tasha makes a good point about ASR...but then I could just spend gold to get it at a later point in time.

    Mass Resist Energy might be a good choice, as would Scrying.

    There's another possibility I had initially discarded: Celerity--aka. "I can do anything I want, whenever I want." It's a Transmutation spell, too, so I could stack it for extra cheese.

  8. - Top - End - #578
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Please note that Wall of Pain has the evil descriptor.

  9. - Top - End - #579
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    Daftendirekt's Avatar

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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Rita as she casts Wall of Pain:

    Spoiler
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  10. - Top - End - #580
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachei View Post
    Please note that Wall of Pain has the evil descriptor.
    So? I'm a wizard, not a cleric. Evil creatures get hurt by it as much as anything else would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daftendirekt View Post
    Rita as she casts Wall of Pain:

    Spoiler
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    LMAO!!!

  11. - Top - End - #581
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    So you don't care about using evil magic? The cause justifies the means? An easy Knowledge Arcana or Spellcraft check will let me foreshadow this for you.

  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    I don't see what's so evil about the spell. It causes pain. So would Boiling Blood (another Necromancy spell but not Evil), or Rita turning into a Remorhaz and eating them alive (isn't that worse than causing pain?), or Aria's Reversed Words of Nurturing (which, since they're the inverse of healing, should rip the target apart), or Makul bashing things in the face with his hammer.

    Still, I'll bite.

    Knowledge Arcana: (1d20+17)[21]

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    Last edited by Psydon; 2012-08-18 at 12:40 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #583
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Your knowledge: Many spellcasters who dabble in the darker secrets of Necromancy and the summoning of demons eventually turn evil themselves. Casting a spell ith the evil descriptor is an evil act.

  14. - Top - End - #584
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Yet this particular spellcaster has been an accomplice to murder numerous times now, but apparently that's okay because of the Red Hand's objective. In other words, the end justifies the means. Wall of Pain is nothing more than a tactical advantage that just happens to have an arbitrary Evil label attached to it, when Rita is capable of far worse acts with spells lacking such a label.

    Spoiler
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    Of course, if you'd like to discuss the possibility of Rita gradually being tempted by evil to gain the power to destroy the Red Hand, that's a completely different matter.

  15. - Top - End - #585
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    I kind of think the whole [Evil] and [Good] descriptor on spells is rather lame, unless they're spells specifically targeting alignment like Protection/Magic Circle Against X or Holy Word/Dictum/Etc. There really are many times that 'the end justifies the means' is quite true. Animate Dead, for instance!

  16. - Top - End - #586
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Quote Originally Posted by Daftendirekt View Post
    I kind of think the whole [Evil] and [Good] descriptor on spells is rather lame, unless they're spells specifically targeting alignment like Protection/Magic Circle Against X or Holy Word/Dictum/Etc. There really are many times that 'the end justifies the means' is quite true. Animate Dead, for instance!
    I can kind of understand why the undead-making spells are [Evil], due to the desecration of corpses and the potential metaphysical 'empowering' of evil forces due to the creation of a creature that, when uncontrolled, kills relentlessly. That said, for things like Deathwatch, or Wall of Pain? It seems like little more than the whim of a designer. Wall of Pain I can understand, I suppose, but it still seems like the Wall is no worse than burning people alive or soaking them in acid.
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  17. - Top - End - #587
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    While I agree that the alignment descriptors offer a lot of room for discussion, I have noted a tendency that people argue with either RAW or "common sense" depending on which better supports their objective.

    Alignment in D&D is more than the whim of a designer. And yes, while you can burn people, the game, from 1st edition AD&D onwards has made a difference between, let's subsume, battle magic and black magic. The difference does not necessarily become apparent in different effects, but often where the spell draws its power from, for instance the negative plane, etc. The Book of Vile Darkness has more information on evil (and, even worse, vile) spells.

    Psydon, if you're willing to have Rita's alignment become endangered because of a powerful spell, I think we're further apart on the roleplaying / powergaming axis than I had thought. It is a pretty mechanistic argument, and I must admit that I don't much appreciate it.

    By the way, a wall is, per default, vertical. Unless the spell description states otherwise, you're creating a vertical wall with an area of a 10 ft. square per level. The width is not an issue. A creature whose space occupies a square that the wall passes through is effectively in the wall's area.
    Last edited by Malachei; 2012-08-18 at 03:53 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #588
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachei View Post
    By the way, a wall is, per default, vertical. Unless the spell description states otherwise, you're creating a vertical wall with an area of a 10 ft. square per level. The width is not an issue. A creature whose space occupies a square that the wall passes through is effectively in the wall's area.
    I would argue the spell does state otherwise, in that it lacks information commonly included in every other wall spell. Perhaps you might argue that it's vaguely written, and I admit there is some verity in that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachei View Post
    Psydon, if you're willing to have Rita's alignment become endangered because of a powerful spell, I think we're further apart on the roleplaying / powergaming axis than I had thought. It is a pretty mechanistic argument, and I must admit that I don't much appreciate it.
    I know I get paranoid and finicky over power, but I'm no munchkin, Mal. That being said, I find this reasoning disingenuous.

    No, I wouldn't want to jeopardize Rita, and the party by extension, in the name of powerful spells (there are plenty that aren't designated Evil anyway), at least not unless it lead somewhere meaningful (see the spoiler below), but why would casting an ostensibly Evil spell alter Rita's alignment? She's not Neutral Good because her sheet says so. She's Neutral Good because, in-game reasoning aside, I play her as Neutral Good, or at least I believe I do. I, not the game or anything/anyone else, decide how she acts, and I have a hard time believing that casting Wall of Pain will alter how my mind works.

    Then again, maybe I'll go mad with power and cross over to the dark side: pure munchkin.

    Alignment is only a mechanic when it is involved with another mechanic--ex. Protection From Alignment, as Daft mentioned. Even if we were to treat it as a mechanic in itself, what does she have to fear? Mystra is Lawful Neutral. I wager she wouldn't care as long as Rita didn't abuse her magic later down the line.

    Spoiler
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    But if we're going to talk about sacrificing morality for power, jumping off the slippery slope in the name of what is, at least at first, a greater good...hello? That's a common character arc. I'm not adverse to doing that if it would lead to a nice twist in the campaign and good storytelling. Hell, part of her backstory hints at something evil having its sights on her.


    Yet, ultimately, I know I'm not going to change your mind about this. It's no big deal. There are other spells out there.

  19. - Top - End - #589
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    No. It does not explicitly state it can be cast horizontally. A wall is a vertical structure.

    By the way: Rules-lawyerish, state-of-the-art: "Hey, but the spell does not explicitly say I can't ..." and then, when an NPC casts a similar spell: "Hey, but the rules don't say he can ..."

    On alignment: Certain game elements are linked to good and evil. D&D is, in part, really black and white about this, in that absolute evil and good do exist.
    I wonder how a neutral good halfling would suddenly research an evil necromancy spell, but maybe that's just me.

    Her patron deity is another matter, depending on how active the gods are in the campaign world. Typically, in the FR, Mystra might indeed care if she regarded Rita as a chosen hero.

    I'm not saying dabbling in dark secrets does not offer interesting campaign arcs, but access to a spell should not be the motivator, and this is, indeed, munchkin-like. Rather, moving a character into the dark zone is interesting for roleplaying purposes and merits should come after that.

  20. - Top - End - #590
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    What I find interesting in all of this is the fact that Wall of pain, a spell that deals NONlethal damage and impedes the opponents, who enter it, a bit is classified as evil, while something like Cloudkill, a spell that kills outright or inflicts Con damage, does not. I mean even Inflict wounds chain of spells is not classified as evil even though the description clearly states it uses negative (evil) energy.
    I mean I understand the reasoning fluff wise, but mechanics kind of suggest it the other way around.
    Anybody else want to negotiate?
    Korben Dallas

    Gabriel Strazza - Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

  21. - Top - End - #591
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    This is often the case with the good/evil descriptors. There are several spells that inflict atrocities, but are not classified as evil, and then others, which seem less severe in comparison, but are designated as evil. *shrugs* Unless you want to work through very spell in the game, or at least in several schools, you'll have to live with it. I don't see this as a real issue in the rules, especially compared to real loopholes.
    Last edited by Malachei; 2012-08-19 at 01:18 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #592
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    I actually agree with that, but it still seems kind of weird
    Anybody else want to negotiate?
    Korben Dallas

    Gabriel Strazza - Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

  23. - Top - End - #593
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    I've decided:

    Celerity, Assay Spell Resistance and Mass Resist Energy.

    20 energy resistance to all of us for 80 minutes could be very useful, especially considering what we were up against the previous fight. We shouldn't rule out the possibility of more Evokers and dragons in our future.

  24. - Top - End - #594
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Or other hell/fire based monstosities. Like hell hounds for example.
    Anybody else want to negotiate?
    Korben Dallas

    Gabriel Strazza - Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

  25. - Top - End - #595
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Those sound like fantastic choices, Psydon.
    Currently climbing out of a heckofa two weeks at work/RL. Now working to catch up. Thanks for your patience.

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  26. - Top - End - #596
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Post to come later tonight, most likely. I know roughly what I'm going to do, but I'm having company over today and have to do some things for my student loan so things are a tad up in the air.
    Last edited by Psydon; 2012-08-20 at 01:00 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #597
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    Okay so:

    -We're on top of a hill that is in, or very close to, the Wyrmsmoke Mountains.
    -There are approximately 12, two hellhounds hobgoblins and one troll on foot (they have a Red Hand banner), accompanying a large cart with humans inside it; it's likely a cage. The group is moving away from us at a much slower speed than our normal march.
    -Our targets are about 500 feet from us, and we will remain out of their visual range until we enter 200 feet of them.

    Our current plan appears to be:

    1. Mead will cast Invisibility or Greater Invisibility on Gabriel, and he may or may not receive flight from Aria or Rita (unless Mead has flight spells; pretty sure she doesn't). Gabriel will head off to scout further and set himself up to hit them from behind when the rest of us strike.
    2. Mead will cast Invisibility Sphere on the rest of the party, who will then move to engage the enemy.
    3. Once we're ready to strike, Mead will cast Haste on us so we can enter the battle with a great advantage.
    4. We take out our enemies and free the prisoners.


    ---


    If I may make some suggestions:

    1. Mead's Haste, though it could be cast again, will last 8 rounds. Rita's Extended Haste will last 16 rounds. She could give everyone, including Gabriel (if he's going to become invisible he'll have to return closer to the party anyway), a Haste that might last the entire fight and the rounds we use to make our approach. Also, having Haste from the very start would make our approach swifter and more efficient.

    2. Mead could cast Silence (which would not break Invisibility Sphere. I checked the SRD to make sure) on a small rock (the smaller the better; a pebble would do just fine) and carry it, so the enemy wouldn't hear us approaching (we can still communicate via telepathy). Once we're ready to cast spells, she (or someone else with a higher STR score if need be) would throw the rock into the midst of our targets.

    A. They wouldn't be able to hear us do anything (our melee charging at them, our spellcasters casting, Gabriel's arrows, etc.), call for help, coordinate their response verbally, etc.
    B. If any of them are casters they wouldn't be able to use verbal components.
    C. The fight, for the most part, wouldn't attract much attention from the outside world, at least in the first few rounds or so.
    D. They wouldn't even hear the rock hit the ground, and if it was small enough--the smallest, hardest-to-see pebble would be enough--they probably wouldn't notice it.
    E. Those poor prisoners wouldn't have to hear the carnage of battle.

    3. Assuming Gabriel wants to fly, Aria can give it to him for one minute/ten rounds. Rita can give it to him for 8 minutes. 80 rounds is likely a lot more than we'll have to fight through today, but who knows what the future has in store. It would also keep Aria's Truespeak DC down.

    4. Once we're ready to attack, we should all attack at once so we can surprise them. Rita could open the fight with an Extended Slow on our foes, screwing them over even more before a single drop of blood is spilled.

    Edit: Even better! Rita could open with Extended Slow -> Celerity -> Another action. Attractive choices would be:

    Extended Glitterdust (aka. The Wizard Is Cruel )
    Grease (see Glitterdust)
    Web (perhaps Gabriel could fly in and set the prisoners free while our enemies are immobilized)
    A buff spell
    Using a charge of her Enlarge Person wand on one of our melee (see Glitterdust)
    Using a charge of her Orb of Fire wand

    5. I recommend Mead cast Invisibility instead of Greater Invisibility. See below for my reasoning.


    ---


    If I fully understand our current plan, and if all of you agree with the above suggestions, our plan becomes this, represented in rounds:

    1. Gabriel returns to the party to be buffed.
    2. Rita casts Extended Haste on the party. Aria speaks Universal Aptitude (that's the one, right?) to Gabriel. Mead casts Invisibility or Greater Invisibility on Gabriel (again, I recommend Invisibility).
    3. Rita casts Fly on Gabriel. Gabriel flies off to do his thing. Mead casts Invisibility sphere on the party.
    4. Mead casts Silence on a rock and takes it with her. The party moves towards the enemy while Gabriel scouts and flanks them.
    5-7. Since Mead is the focus of the Invisibility Sphere the party would have to move at her pace in order to remain within it, which is 200 feet per round if we run at 4x speed ((20+30) * 4), so we would need three rounds to enter effective charging, speaking and casting distances.
    8. Mead, or someone else, throws the Silence Rock at the middle of the enemy group. The rest of the party and Gabriel attack all at once, surprising the enemy; Rita opens the fight with an Extended Slow, possibly following up with a Celerity combo.

    Once our next turn began, the durations would be:

    Extended Haste: 7/16 rounds (if it doesn't last the fight, that's where Mead comes in)
    Fly: 7/80 rounds
    Universal Aptitude: 7/10 rounds
    Greater Invisibility (if Mead chose to cast that one on Gabriel): 7/8 rounds
    Silence: 7/80 rounds

    This is why I recommended Mead cast Invisibility rather than Greater Invisibility. Assuming we go along with this plan, either it breaks when we attack or it lasts for only one more round before disappearing. If it were my choice I'd rather save the 4th level slot.
    Last edited by Psydon; 2012-08-21 at 06:15 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #598
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    I'll just add the information that Aria can now "cast" Fog Cloud and, more importantly, Solid Fog several times a day. Solid Fog in particular is almost as effective as a wall when it comes to stopping movement, it completely block vision past 5 feet, it stops ranged attacks, and it hampers melee. She can drop that on, say, half of their number at the beginning of the fight, allowing us to take out the "heavier" targets such as the troll first, or to take out the weaker foes quickly so that we can focus on the troll and hounds with no goblins hampering our efforts. We have room to maneuver, and she can kill their mobility in large numbers.
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  29. - Top - End - #599
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    I completely forgot about that. Excellent!

    Okay, so:

    1. Gabriel returns to the party to be buffed.
    2. Rita casts Extended Haste on the party. Aria speaks Universal Aptitude (that's the one, right?) to Gabriel. Mead casts Invisibility or Greater Invisibility on Gabriel (again, I recommend Invisibility).
    3. Rita casts Fly on Gabriel. Gabriel flies off to do his thing. Mead casts Invisibility sphere on the party.
    4. Mead casts Silence on a rock and takes it with her. The party moves towards the enemy while Gabriel scouts and flanks them.
    5-7. Since Mead is the focus of the Invisibility Sphere the party would have to move at her pace in order to remain within it, which is 200 feet per round if we run at 4x speed ((20+30) * 4), so we would need three rounds to enter effective charging, speaking and casting distances.
    8. Mead (it has to be her) throws the Silence Rock at the middle of the enemy group. The rest of the party and Gabriel attack all at once, surprising the enemy; Rita opens the fight with an Extended Slow, possibly following up with a Celerity combo. Aria follows up with a Solid Fog cutting off a portion of the enemy group. Finally, the melee charge and go to town.

  30. - Top - End - #600
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    Default Re: [OOC] Malachei's Red Hand of Doom

    This is terrific Psydon.

    Invisibility (rather than greater inv) is indeed what I was going to cast on Gabriel.

    Silence is a great idea. It doesn't have to be on a rock, mind you. It could be on an arrow that someone fires in the first round of the attack, for example.

    Similarly, the invisibility sphere can be on a stone or coin that someone holds, and tucks away when we're ready to attack.

    If someone carries Mead, then she can keep up with everyone else, of course, but I don't think it'll make much difference.

    I'm fine with you using extended haste. Do keep in mind that we may actually reach the Red Hand army today and, while we don't intend to engage them, it would be great to have our primary caster with as complete a set of tools at her disposal as possible.

    Ready to go when everyone else is!
    Currently climbing out of a heckofa two weeks at work/RL. Now working to catch up. Thanks for your patience.

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