OOTS #827 - The Discussion Thread

[M84]

SoD Spoilers:

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For Redcloak's sake, I hope he doesn't try to destroy the phylactery. Otherwise, Xykon's little contingency measure will get him OM NOM NOMed by MITD.

[PhantomFox]

Redcloak is playing with fire here. He already has all his chips in with Xykon, so he can't really betray him, but can he steer him in the way he wants? It feels like he has the tiger by the tail, and dare not let go.

[Da'Shain]

Ah Redcloak, acting on your own and taking risks you think aren't stupid.

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I think Redcloak is going to destroy the phylactery. Right now. My prediction will probably be proved wrong with the next strip, but I think it's the only thing that makes sense given his actions. If he destroys it, that's significant and it weakens Xykon considerably. If he wanted to hide it, he could have just buried it deep underground before he cast that earthquake spell.

That was actually the first thing I thought of, as well.

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Assuming that Redcloak even CAN, destroy the phylactery right now ... but even if he can't, beginning the task now gives him time to unravel the enchantments on it, so that he doesn't fail just like O'Chul did if he tries to smash it in a single moment of betrayal.

Really, though, that would seem like the best option for him, if he actually wants to betray Xykon but doesn't want there to be any reprisals against him or the goblin nation. Since Xykon's soul isn't inside it and he's never shown the ability to sense it in any way, destroying it now probably wouldn't alert him (he might have some alarm cast on it that'll alert him, but Redcloak can remove that along with the other spells on it), and this way the plan can go forward without a hitch ... but if, say, the Order manages to get another lucky shot in on Xykon, Redcloak can finally justify moving on to himself.

It's just the kind of sneaky backstabbery that Redcloak would be most willing to do, IMO. I expect to see a "phylactery" handed back to Xykon, maybe one that even looks, to all outward appearances, like the real one, but I won't believe it's the real one 'til it's confirmed somehow.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Awesome strip. I've got a nitpick, though -- dead polymorph targets return to their normal forms.

It's very likely that the spy was under a polymorph any object spell. "Hobgoblin to Human" would be permanent under that spell, and leave a permanently human corpse (with a lingering transmutation aura.)

[DementedFellow]

So why didn't the paladin use Detect Evil on the traitor? That seems short-sighted on his part.

I just get bothered by this common motif of a group of supposedly wise and righteous people getting infiltrated by some evil agent. And then everyone is surprised when the Big Reveal happens.

Have these people never heard of Zone of Truth, Discern Lies or Detect Evil?

[Pantler]

Traitors never. Ever. Get paid.
Great storytelling.

[luc258]

Technically he is not a traitor, he is a spy. Even if the paladin called him a traitor.

[Kish]

So why didn't the paladin use Detect Evil on the traitor? That seems short-sighted on his part.

I just get bothered by this common motif of a group of supposedly wise and righteous people getting infiltrated by some evil agent. And then everyone is surprised when the Big Reveal happens.

Have these people never heard of Zone of Truth, Discern Lies or Detect Evil?

Your final line makes it very hard to resist asking if you've never heard of Undetectable Alignment. Just so you know.

Anyway. Yeah. Second-level cleric spell, before we get into "are you saying you would expect none of the actual human prisoners to ping as evil?"

[Lord Ruby34]

To me, this strip proved that Redcloak needs to die before the story ends. And no Redemption Equals Death. I want to see Hinjo, O-Chul, and Lien smite him. His death needs to prove, to him, that despite what he thinks, he's completely Evil.

Poor Thahn...

[pendell]

Traitors never. Ever. Get paid.
Great storytelling.

luc258 has it right. The spy was no traitor. Thanh called him that because he was unaware that the spy was a polymorphed goblinoid instead of a willing human collaborator.

Of all the characters who died in this comic, the spy is the one I feel the most sympathy for. He volunteered for a dangerous mission, was polymorphed into something he hated, did his job and remained loyal to his own side rather than defecting, and his reward was to be used and killed by his own chain of command.

I knew when Redcloak ordered him to assist in killing the humans that Redcloak was hoping the spy would be killed by them. No witnesses and no loose ends.

The sole bright spot for him is that death doesn't mean to them what it does to us . It may be that the dead spy will have officer's rank in the Dark One's army on the Iron Plain. He's certainly earned it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rbetieh]

We know Redcloak's first holy symbol is Xykon's phylactory but if he thinks Xykon will demand it handed over, Redcloak can keep the real one in a safe place, meet Xykon wearing a fake and hand that over. There is no need to hide that the Resistance is destroyed and the phylactory recovered.

I have been seeing a lot of phylactery switcharoo theories pop-up, and I was wondering how this could even be possible. I mean, the actual holy symbol is warded so much that it is virtually undetectable. It wouldnt take Xykon more than 2 rounds to realize the thing he was handed is missing a few spells and we can't be sure that Redcloak even knows what all the wards are, right?

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if Xykon might have his own spies among the hobbos to keep tabs on RC and Jirix. And man is it tough to be a mountain in OOTSverse.

[A_Moon]

That was an awesome performance by all characters involved .

[Vectner]

That was EPIC, or at least very high level.

[R. Shackleford]

I don't know how polymorphing works, since it's never come up in any of my games. I recall in a Drizzt book that death ends the effect though...

I think the Paladins being so easily infiltrateable makes perfect sense. The few savvy members included Shojo and Miko who're dead, and Hinjo who'd largely come to genre awareness through the aforementioned two's actions and by hanging with Elan for a book.

Honor Before Reason is a stupid thing to adhere to, but it seems in character that even the Sapphire resistance clung to that idea. The elves should have considered it though.

RIP Thahn. Your death makes a subplot one thread barer.

[LuPuWei]

R.I.P. Thahn.

The memory of you and your awesome 'stache shall live on forever in us.

- "Oh Thahny boy, you fin'lly found your ca-a-lling; Defend, defend! What used to be your land!
And though you find, your friends around you fa-a-lling; Whip out your sword, and prepare to make your stand."

[Fitzclowningham]

I have been seeing a lot of phylactery switcharoo theories pop-up, and I was wondering how this could even be possible. I mean, the actual holy symbol is warded so much that it is virtually undetectable. It wouldnt take Xykon more than 2 rounds to realize the thing he was handed is missing a few spells and we can't be sure that Redcloak even knows what all the wards are, right?

I would think that the non-detection spells on it would make it impossible for Xykon to know whether there were *any* enchantments on it, otherwise, it would be findable via Detect Magic.

[Starscream]

You predicted that the evil overlord's second in command would attempt to betray him? Pretty appropriate, given your username .

We Starscreams are experts in that particular field. It makes job interviews interesting.

[Doug Lampert]

"Stupid risks are stupid."

Is this character development? For Redcloak? Could he possibly, ever use this little insight to reconsider that whole idiotic plan? I want a happy ending for him (yeah, I'm soft that way), but only if he realizes how stupid the plan is. I mean, really, there has GOT to be a better, safer way of insuring goblin equality.

AFAICT the horrible threats that face goblin villiages NOT harboring the Red Cloak or planning massive crusades against the humans include things like the circus coming to town and charging you money to see the show. And that's about it.

Hobgoblins can have kingdoms with 30,000+ evil soldiers on the border of a major human realm, and no one cares till they attack.

Orcs can plan rock concerts on the border of a human village, and not expect to be brutally attacked and be surprised when the locals run from them rather than taking their money and when advanturers come after them. And Roy and Durkon are both disgusted when adventurers DO go after them. And once they explain the situation everyone, even the jerk advanturers who want XP, is willing to let it go and let the orcs have their concert.

There's very little evidence of indescriminant attacks on inoccent humanoids. There's lots of evidence that you can just settle down and live. Notice that Hinjo's fleet had more than enough military force to wipe out the Orc tribe they encountered, was desperately looking for someplace to live, and rather than genociding them they had a pie eating contest. :)

Seriously. This is not a world that NEEDS the "great plan", maybe it did 1,000 years ago, or maybe the Dark One was as much of an evil jerk as his disciple.

Noooo, Eyepatch Chick!

Oh, and Thanh, I guess.

That's our Redcloak: clever, ruthless, and dangerously genre savvy. I'm not really rooting for him, but I do hope he manages to improve the goblins' plight by the end of the strip. He deserves to accomplish something.

Redcloak is the second biggest cause of goblinoid deaths in the strip (place one goes to the Dark One and those who assassinated him). Red Cloak's plan of attack on Azure city was deliberately DESIGNED to get lots of hobgoblins killed for example. He can greatly ease the plight of goblinkind by DYING.

If he REALLY wants to help he can take his creation Xykon which he has repeatedly saved in preference to his fellows and kill him too.

If he REALLY REALLY wants to help he can true resurect his brother who actually DID something to help goblins prior to Red Cloak getting involved.

[dancrilis]

I am not sure that Redcloak is hiding the phylactery from Xykon, he knows that Xykon is bright enough that he could have warded it with epic magic (even beyond the cloister currently affecting it).
But can't be sure he knows what it does and doesn't have.

For example Xykon testing Redcloak by knowing where it was at all times and simply pretending not to know is in character.

Similarly developing a spell to locate it, is not beyond the bounds of possibility, particularly as Redcloaks entire argument regarding staying in Azure city was that moving to the gate without knowing it's defences was dangerous.

Xykon could decide to wait around for a while to ensure that he retrieves it or develops a method of gaining a new one, as moving on to the next gate may be dangerous.

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Xykon has after all tested Redcloak regarding this before.

[skaddix]

I would think that the non-detection spells on it would make it impossible for Xykon to know whether there were *any* enchantments on it, otherwise, it would be findable via Detect Magic.

I believe not detect simply stops scrying. Besides it was said that both RC and Xykon put wards on it which means if RC gives a fake to Xykon he cannot put every single ward on it because they don't have access to all the same spells. Not to mention Xykon is a master at crafting he spends 8 hours a day crating. I am not even sure RC has the right level to craft one himself and I certainly don't think he can pull one over on Xykon.

[Draconi Redfir]

Welp, Redcloak killed eyepatch chick himself, so much for that ship

[Belsirk]

mmm
Question: Could be the Dark One HAVE plans with Xykon instead of Redcloak? ?

I mean, Redcloack can't win anything from hide the artifiact except have more holes on the face than under his wrist ... but a God could try to take control of his best option for the door (After all Redcloak is a high NPC mean Xykon it's epic)

[Holy_Knight]

Poor Thanh... he died a noble, heroic death, though. Like some have said, I hope we get to see him raised sometime and maybe even reunite with Niu. Their parting scene was really touching, even more so than one might have expected for characters we haven't seen as much of. It was sweet, and it actually sort of reminded me of Leia and Han when he's about to be frozen in carbonite.

I'm also of the mind that Redcloak is planning some sort of betrayal here, but that it wll probably be subtle. Just like (SoD Spoilers)

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Xykon enchanted the MiTD to devour Redcloak if he ever betrays him,

perhaps Redcloak is setting up some kind of failsafe condition to impede/neutralize Xykon for when they inevitably turn on each other.

[Jay R]

Redcloak doesn't dare destroy the phylactery now. He needs Xykon, and the phylactery has preserved him once already.

There is no point to destroying it until after the ritual has been cast. After that point, Xykon is only a threat to the goblins, and Redcloak would like to get rid of him. His plan might be to destroy the phylactery after the ritual is cast, while the Order of the Stick is attacking Xykon.

[Ellye]

3. Doesn't Redcloak have to say the spell name when he kills eypatch girl?

With a single cast of Implosion, you're abe to target up to four beings, one per round.

[aberratio ictus]

I knew Thanh's death was coming, but it didn't soften the impact.
Farewell, old friend. You will be missed.

[Kish]

Redcloak wasn't using Implosion in panel #7; Implosion doesn't cover the target in a brown aura, like we see in 826.

More to the point, she's not imploding. So, you're correct that that's not the ongoing Implosion spell.

Redcloak probably said the spell name (most likely Slay Living or Destruction)--in panel five or six, when we weren't looking at him. That's not at all unlike Rich.

[Whiffet]

Thanh! No!

That one tear in the last panel made me tear up a little, too. I'm glad Niu's alive, but... oh, geez.

[t209]

Thanh! No!

That one tear in the last panel made me tear up a little, too. I'm glad Niu's alive, but... oh, geez.

Thou Thanh dies, La Resistance Lives on!

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Wbh6HOWwA