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  1. - Top - End - #1411
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    I know. That's why I only did it once and with a character that didn't go to Whiterun until she was leading the assault. Otherwise I don't do the quests, and usually don't complete the main quest either. I just get dragon rend and then leave them to stand there forever.

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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    I suspect it was him saying that elisif would be allowed to remain as Jarl of Solitude, where I figure that Tuillius would have killed her for siding for the opposition if he were in Ulfric's place. Tuillius just strikes me as a worse person for following openly the orders of the SS elves.
    I don't see him as worse person. He actually hated the Thalmor but he didn't have a choice but to obey the White Gold Concordat that was signed by the empire. But the mission to rescue Graymane prisoner had a choice for freeing him with his permission, which is bugged.
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    I'll tell you why Tullius is worse: Because he openly betrays his principles to become an instrument of Thalmor oppression. He knows the Thalmor are the real enemy, but projects his own scheming, self-serving motives on Ulfric Stormcloak. Ulfric is standing up for his beliefs, for his people, at a time when the Empire is letting them be persecuted by a foreign oppressor. How he gets painted as a villain in that context by any rational person is totally incomprehensible.

    Yes, he's not the most open-minded and tolerant fellow in Tamriel, and yes, some of his followers are outright bigots. But the Empire has its share of bigots too, and the Thalmor are the goose-stepping Nazis of the piece, and Tullius is carrying their water. As Toby Ziegler put it in 'The West Wing', "You're not the Devil, you're the guy who goes to the corner store to get the Devil a pack of cigarettes".

  4. - Top - End - #1414
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I'll tell you why Tullius is worse: Because he openly betrays his principles to become an instrument of Thalmor oppression. He knows the Thalmor are the real enemy, but projects his own scheming, self-serving motives on Ulfric Stormcloak. Ulfric is standing up for his beliefs, for his people, at a time when the Empire is letting them be persecuted by a foreign oppressor. How he gets painted as a villain in that context by any rational person is totally incomprehensible.

    Yes, he's not the most open-minded and tolerant fellow in Tamriel, and yes, some of his followers are outright bigots. But the Empire has its share of bigots too, and the Thalmor are the goose-stepping Nazis of the piece, and Tullius is carrying their water. As Toby Ziegler put it in 'The West Wing', "You're not the Devil, you're the guy who goes to the corner store to get the Devil a pack of cigarettes".
    Because Tullius isn't betraying his own principles, he's upholding them. He's a man of law, order, and discipline. He swore an oath to serve the Empire and the Emperor, and those principles demand that he obey the lawful treaty signed with the Thalmor. It doesn't matter that he knows that he's their enemy or that he knows he's being made to do their dirty work; his duty is to obey his orders, and he does so to the best of his ability. He can't just discard his orders and act on his own - what kind of example would he be setting as an officer or as a citizen?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
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  5. - Top - End - #1415
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    I think Bethesda made a well done job on Skyrim Civil War storyline. It is fictional war but starts a debate between fans if posted on internet (other than
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    ). Neither of them are right or wrong (Empire can be a sell out boot licking puppet or last bastion of humanity. Stormcloaks can be army of Viking Miko Miyazaki (Dumb and make things worse type) with racist attitude or only sane vikings to know that Empire is corrupt).
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  6. - Top - End - #1416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Because Tullius isn't betraying his own principles, he's upholding them. He's a man of law, order, and discipline. He swore an oath to serve the Empire and the Emperor, and those principles demand that he obey the lawful treaty signed with the Thalmor. It doesn't matter that he knows that he's their enemy or that he knows he's being made to do their dirty work; his duty is to obey his orders, and he does so to the best of his ability. He can't just discard his orders and act on his own - what kind of example would he be setting as an officer or as a citizen?
    What kind of example is he setting when he protects Thalmor agents when they kidnap, torture and murder Imperial citizens? There's such a thing as an unjust law. In fact, there are a lot of them. The Empire serves to protect its subjects. If it can't deliver on that simple mandate, then there's not much justification in law, order and discipline. Law, order in discipline in that context get you carted off to a Thalmor dungeon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    What kind of example is he setting when he protects Thalmor agents when they kidnap, torture and murder Imperial citizens? There's such a thing as an unjust law. In fact, there are a lot of them. The Empire serves to protect its subjects. If it can't deliver on that simple mandate, then there's not much justification in law, order and discipline. Law, order in discipline in that context get you carted off to a Thalmor dungeon.
    To which I respectfully submit this rebuttal: So? It's not Tullius's job to enforce justice. He is not a governor, the leader of the province, or a watchman. He is a General in service to the Empire, and as a result of that role he is a soldier. If his orders entail such behavior, then so be it. His principles dictate that it is not his place to question his oath to the Emperor. The fact that he has moral scruples with his own orders means he's sane, but the fact that he continues to place duty above them means he's sticking to his principles, not abandoning them. There will be time enough to fight the Thalmor later - but under a united Empire, not a fractured collection of rebellious states.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, such arguments didn't work out so good for Albert Speer, Rudolph Hess, Karl Dönitz, et al. The job of the state is to administer justice and protect its citizens, and being subject to orders doesn't give you a pass on that duty. Does being sworn to obey the Emperor put him in a difficult position? Yes. Does that mean what he's doing is just? No it does not. The position that you can oppress a minority for the sake of civic order is NOT defensible, period.

    And the suggestion that delaying the oncoming conflict with the Thalmor plays in favour of the Empire is patently false. The Altmeri Dominion is internally united under the White-Gold Concordat, and the Empire is fragmenting, with both Skyrim and Hammerfell rebelling under the yoke of Imperial tyranny. What sane leader would try to throw off the yoke of foreign aggression AFTER fighting a grueling civil war to enforce the terms of their last treaty? It's dilatory appeasement and serves only to strengthen the Empire's enemies while weakening itself.

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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, such arguments didn't work out so good for Albert Speer, Rudolph Hess, Karl Dönitz, et al. The job of the state is to administer justice and protect its citizens, and being subject to orders doesn't give you a pass on that duty. Does being sworn to obey the Emperor put him in a difficult position? Yes. Does that mean what he's doing is just? No it does not. The position that you can oppress a minority for the sake of civic order is NOT defensible, period.

    And the suggestion that delaying the oncoming conflict with the Thalmor plays in favour of the Empire is patently false. The Altmeri Dominion is internally united under the White-Gold Concordat, and the Empire is fragmenting, with both Skyrim and Hammerfell rebelling under the yoke of Imperial tyranny. What sane leader would try to throw off the yoke of foreign aggression AFTER fighting a grueling civil war to enforce the terms of their last treaty? It's dilatory appeasement and serves only to strengthen the Empire's enemies while weakening itself.
    But what if Redguards are working with Aldmeri Dominion and their "victory" was part of their plan. Even though the empire signed white gold concordat, the empire actually tries to pretend that Nords do not have Talos worship, according to Alvor the blacksmith, and Thalmor came to skyrim when Ulfric starts his rebellion.
    Last edited by t209; 2012-05-10 at 05:51 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #1420
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, such arguments didn't work out so good for Albert Speer, Rudolph Hess, Karl Dönitz, et al. The job of the state is to administer justice and protect its citizens, and being subject to orders doesn't give you a pass on that duty. Does being sworn to obey the Emperor put him in a difficult position? Yes. Does that mean what he's doing is just? No it does not. The position that you can oppress a minority for the sake of civic order is NOT defensible, period.
    So instead you want him to be a traitor to everything he believes by supporting a murderer and a terrorist? And become a traitor to the empire as well as the emperor in the process?

    As for your last point... it might not be defensible, but it is necessary a lot of times. Now let's leave this since we are sliding into IRL politics?
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2012-05-10 at 10:05 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #1421
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    So, I hit 74 this morning when lockpicking hit 95. I nearly hit 75 a few minutes later when I used the Infinium. My Sneak & Pickpocket are rising but not as fast as I'd like. I think I'm going to train Sneak this level instead of Pickpocket... I've dumped some of my leftover perk points into Sneak to try and help it level faster. Since it's clear sneak attacking is raising it faster, I took the liberty of smithing up a pair of daedric daggers (>180 damage on each, unenchanted). Archery continues its slow climb toward 100 as my last attack skill to get there.

    I've been knocking out some of the misc & daedric quests that were clogging up my journal. This includes Red Eagle's sword, which I think I've had in the journal since I was in single digits. Another one that's been in my journal almost as long involves a drinking game, which I've been hesitant to try because a> it smells of being a daedric quest and b> it smells of being a Hangover movie homage, and in real life I'm a teetotaller/prohibitionist.

    I've also become thane of a couple more cities, but apparently there isn't a house to get in Dawnstar or Morthal. Pity

    Speaking of Dawnstar, I actually reloaded a game because of a dragon attack there. An elder dragon managed to take out *both* of the blacksmiths (it's a married couple) before I could get to it.
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  12. - Top - End - #1422
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    The quickest way to up Sneak is to use melee Sneak-attacks.

    The problem I have with Tullius isn't him capturing Ulfric. That's what he'd been ordered to do, grab Ulfric and stop the rebellion. Fine. I don't think he was ordered to capture him, drag him somewhere he could make a public spectacle of the execution, and then kill him without trial.

    I think that was something that the SS elves were doing, and Tullius was going along with it. If nothing else, Legate Rikki should have pointed out that there was no way that executing Ulfric like that would be the best way possible to Martyr him and send the rebellion into overdrive.

    In short? Tullius is an idiot. How he managed to obtain the rank of general blindly following orders is beyond me.

    And you're in no danger of invoking Godwin's. I invoked it already with my 'SS elves' comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    The quickest way to up Sneak is to use melee Sneak-attacks.

    The problem I have with Tullius isn't him capturing Ulfric. That's what he'd been ordered to do, grab Ulfric and stop the rebellion. Fine. I don't think he was ordered to capture him, drag him somewhere he could make a public spectacle of the execution, and then kill him without trial.
    You mean the trial he had before the game even started? Y'know, just before the execution that got interrupted by OMGDRAGON? THAT trial?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    You mean the trial he had before the game even started? Y'know, just before the execution that got interrupted by OMGDRAGON? THAT trial?
    I don't recall a trial. I recall an execution. Unless he was tried in absentia before the game even begins. As far as I know, he's captured in a raid, you also get picked up, and as soon as they get to the nearest safe place they execute him, or try to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    I don't recall a trial. I recall an execution. Unless he was tried in absentia before the game even begins. As far as I know, he's captured in a raid, you also get picked up, and as soon as they get to the nearest safe place they execute him, or try to.
    Hrm. An in absentia trial wouldn't really be out-of-place for the kind of time period TES models, so it's not something we can rule out. Though I also wonder: is it possible that the Stormcloaks are classified as an enemy military force instead of citizens? That'd make the immediate execution make a bit more sense, as at that point he's an enemy combatant, not a criminal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    The quickest way to up Sneak is to use melee Sneak-attacks.
    Oh definitely. In fact, it was your suggestion back on May04 that I've been following. I've primarily been using bows because that's my last attack skill that hasn't capped yet, but to try and raise Sneak even faster I've gone down the sneak tree for the x15 dagger damage perk and made myself a pair of daggers. These last six levels aren't going to grind themselves, it seems
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Ulfric is guilty of high treason - in the old (Septim) Empire that was an automatic death sentence (as it usually was IRL). The Stormcloaks are guilty of helping him and since they took up arms againts the Empire, they're most likely treated as combatants.

    Also, remember that the basic of Tamriel legal system was "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEmerged View Post
    Oh definitely. In fact, it was your suggestion back on May04 that I've been following. I've primarily been using bows because that's my last attack skill that hasn't capped yet, but to try and raise Sneak even faster I've gone down the sneak tree for the x15 dagger damage perk and made myself a pair of daggers. These last six levels aren't going to grind themselves, it seems
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    And the suggestion that delaying the oncoming conflict with the Thalmor plays in favour of the Empire is patently false. The Altmeri Dominion is internally united under the White-Gold Concordat, and the Empire is fragmenting, with both Skyrim and Hammerfell rebelling under the yoke of Imperial tyranny. What sane leader would try to throw off the yoke of foreign aggression AFTER fighting a grueling civil war to enforce the terms of their last treaty? It's dilatory appeasement and serves only to strengthen the Empire's enemies while weakening itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    The Altmeri Dominion is internally united under the White-Gold Concordat, and the Empire is fragmenting, with both Skyrim and Hammerfell rebelling under the yoke of Imperial tyranny.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    rebelling under the yoke of Imperial tyranny.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Imperial tyranny

    Pffffffahahaha.

    The late 3E/early 4E Empire is about as tyrannical as the UN Peacekeepers in Alpha Centauri.

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    Leveling sneak is possibly the easiest skill in the game. If you're playing a sneaky character, have the x15 dagger perk, and have the DB gloves that give you another x2, then you can just go to a castle, wait for night, then repeatedly sneak attack a thane in his/her sleep. You easily have enough damage to kill them instantly, but they can't die. Not only that, it doesn't count as a crime for whatever reason. I've leveled my sneak to 100 in a single (in-game) night before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelbert View Post
    Leveling sneak is possibly the easiest skill in the game. If you're playing a sneaky character, have the x15 dagger perk, and have the DB gloves that give you another x2, then you can just go to a castle, wait for night, then repeatedly sneak attack a thane in his/her sleep. You easily have enough damage to kill them instantly, but they can't die. Not only that, it doesn't count as a crime for whatever reason. I've leveled my sneak to 100 in a single (in-game) night before.
    And they don't wake up? Does Ulfric count as a Thane?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    And they don't wake up? Does Ulfric count as a Thane?
    They stand up, say "Stop killing me" or something like that, then go back to sleep. I usually run into the corner when they wake up, then sneak attack again when they go back to sleep. And I imagine so, but I've only ever tried it with the Jarls of Whiterun and Markarth. Should work on any essential Jarl though.

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    Anyone seen the preview for Elder Scolls Online? Looks pretty good to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    The quickest way to up Sneak is to use melee Sneak-attacks.

    The problem I have with Tullius isn't him capturing Ulfric. That's what he'd been ordered to do, grab Ulfric and stop the rebellion. Fine. I don't think he was ordered to capture him, drag him somewhere he could make a public spectacle of the execution, and then kill him without trial.
    Yeah because the Roman Empire never killed the leader of an enemy without a trial...? Of course he was ordered to do a public execution. They are stating an example!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    ...with both Skyrim and Hammerfell rebelling under the yoke of Imperial tyranny.
    Yeah... That isn't true. Hammerfell is rebelling because they feel betrayed by the peace treaty; because they were abandoned by the empire despite having a chance of defeating the elves. Not because of some case of "imperial tyranny".
    Skyrim isn't rebelling. Skyrim is having a civil war between a large minority that wants to leave the empire because of the empire outlawing Talos worship, and those who either support the empire outright or are pragmatic enough to know they could never survive against the elves alone. Also, please note that the empire outlawing the worship of Talos was mostly a paper tiger, on purpose. They did not investigate rumors of Talos worship as long as the Nords crossed their fingers behind their backs and "swore" they were not worshiping him. It wasn't until Ulfric started his ruckus they were FORCED to really put the ban into practice.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2012-05-12 at 02:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Anyone seen the preview for Elder Scolls Online? Looks pretty good to me.
    It isn't when you find out they have described at as "using WOW mechanics" and "will be familiar to WOW players" So if is just another WOW clone. Which made me wonder: HOW CAN YOU MESS UP MULTIPLAYER SKYRIM!
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Talos worship as long as the Nords crossed their fingers behind their backs and "swore" they were not worshiping him. It wasn't until Ulfric started his ruckus they were FORCED to really put the ban into practice.
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    HOW CAN YOU MESS UP MULTIPLAYER SKYRIM!
    My understanding is that MMO ranged attacks are hell on the servers unless it's a simple attack/instant damage dealt/attack animation with no projectile physics or skill shots involved. So there goes most magic attacks and archery as ES players know them. I imagine other compromises were made as getting an MMO to work is a lot harder than getting a SPFPSworder to function on similar hardware.
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by thegurullamen View Post
    My understanding is that MMO ranged attacks are hell on the servers unless it's a simple attack/instant damage dealt/attack animation with no projectile physics or skill shots involved. So there goes most magic attacks and archery as ES players know them. I imagine other compromises were made as getting an MMO to work is a lot harder than getting a SPFPSworder to function on similar hardware.
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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Yes, the trouble with the 'Enemy Combatants'=high treason argument is that they'd have killed him then and there when they first had him surrounded. You know, in the heat of battle. Then to confirm he was dead, parade around his head on a pole.

    And if it were truly an internal civil war, and not a rebellion, then the intelligent move for the empire is to wait while they sort it out, and either pick up troops from the extremely loyal remnants, or throw their forces in to smash the disloyal victors.

    As for Skyrim Online, I don't see a point in bothering. The early shots look terrible. I'd expect better from a SuperNES. And if it's WoW like, why should I play this and not WoW?

    The problem with ranged attacks is that they've got the Servers doing everything, in an effort to prevent cheating. So they end up overloaded, and come to a grinding halt.

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    Default Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    Yes, the trouble with the 'Enemy Combatants'=high treason argument is that they'd have killed him then and there when they first had him surrounded. You know, in the heat of battle. Then to confirm he was dead, parade around his head on a pole.

    And if it were truly an internal civil war, and not a rebellion, then the intelligent move for the empire is to wait while they sort it out, and either pick up troops from the extremely loyal remnants, or throw their forces in to smash the disloyal victors.

    As for Skyrim Online, I don't see a point in bothering. The early shots look terrible. I'd expect better from a SuperNES. And if it's WoW like, why should I play this and not WoW?

    The problem with ranged attacks is that they've got the Servers doing everything, in an effort to prevent cheating. So they end up overloaded, and come to a grinding halt.
    Oh yeah! you forgot that empire is in bad shape after the Great War (lost 2 legions and most did not get to full strength).
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