MS Paint Adventures V: THIS IS STUPID

[Calemyr]

Having a Freudian Excuse for being a jerkass bully and murderer doesn't make you less of a jerkass bully and murderer. Gamzee's deeds are of course equally (perhaps more) vile, excuse or not, but somehow, he's so extreme that I, at least have trouble imagining him as a real person (well, I guess he's sort of nightmarishly Jeffrey Dahmer-ish, but luckily, few can relate to that). Vriska feels more real (she's had much more character development) and therefore I personally find her more despicable. That doesn't mean she's not a wellwritten character, of course.

I feel sad... for Tavros! Vriska surely deserves this.

Tavros could stand to have a little confidence, and Vriska has enough for both. This could be good for him, or they could be another Jadesprite...

That said, I'm not sure how Gamzee is really that bad. He was certainly scary, but when you look at the final tally:

Eridan: 2.5 (Feferi and Sollux and Kanaya)
Gamzee: 2 (Equius and Nepata)
Vriska: 2 (Aradia and Tavros)
Kanaya: 1 (Eridan)
Terezi: 1 (Vriska)

Gamzee's reign of terror was largely psychological.

[Friv]

Really, the only troll I actually hated as a person was Eridan.

I liked Vriska - she was doing what her culture taught her she should, and having trouble understanding why she felt guilty about it afterwards, and assuming that the problem was the guilt and not the murder. All of that stuff when she's hoping to give Aradia a robot body so that things can go back to normal is heartbreaking. She kept thinking that if she pushed a little harder, she would make everything right, and that's ultimately what got her killed - believing that if she went and killed Jack, it would retroactively justify everything else that she'd done and make it all worthwhile.

Ultimately, Vriska's death was justified - she was about to get everyone killed because she couldn't just accept that she was wrong in the first place. But I still felt bad for her.

Gamzee, now... I have a hard time actually holding Gamzee responsible for anything that he did. He was literally coming off a lifelong, brutal drug haze that suppressed all of his natural instincts. Equius, upon being told that Gamzee was sober, immediately understood that this meant everyone was in serious danger because Gamzee needed careful handling and work to make it through without murdering everyone. We saw other timelines where that work failed, and Gamzee murdered everyone, but he's not really responsible for it. He was eating sopor slime before he was old enough to know better, no one ever told him how dangerous it was, he was from a violent bloodline of a violent species, and when he went sobor, he hit withdrawal and a lifetime of hormones he had no experience or ability to deal with. Ultimately, I think he really did want someone to stop him - that's what all of his taunting messages to Karkat really amount to. And Karkat did stop him, helped him calm down, and once he was calm he stopped trying to kill everyone.

Eridan... Eridan was actually genocidal, self-absorbed, and cruel. He ignored people trying to help him, turned on everyone because he was feeling bad, and never made any attempt to improve himself or reach out to his supposed friends, ending with him deliberately murdering the only hope of the troll race's survival out of pure spite. He never showed any remorse, except briefly for Feferi's feelings, and even then he ultimately killed her.

[BRC]

Having a Freudian Excuse for being a jerkass bully and murderer doesn't make you less of a jerkass bully and murderer. Gamzee's deeds are of course equally (perhaps more) vile, excuse or not, but somehow, he's so extreme that I, at least have trouble imagining him as a real person (well, I guess he's sort of nightmarishly Jeffrey Dahmer-ish, but luckily, few can relate to that). Vriska feels more real (she's had much more character development) and therefore I personally find her more despicable. That doesn't mean she's not a wellwritten character, of course.

I feel sad... for Tavros! Vriska surely deserves this.

Eh, I consider Murderclown Gamzee and Stoner Gamzee to be two separate characters, they're so different that it's hard to judge them as a single whole. Murderclown Gamzee is probably the most evil character in the comic, even Lord English seems to have some agenda besides "Kill People". But his evil is a simple, Omnicidal evil, very different from Scratch's Smug Maliciousness, Jack's Ambition, or the Condenses' Cruel Megalomania.


Vriska is, well, she's a Bully. That word doesn't really carry the intensity of what she does, but otherwise it's a pretty good fit. Now she does have the whole "Needed to kill or else would have been killed" thing, but that's more of an explanation than an excuse.

Really, the source of all this is Tavros, after that it was just a revenge-based cycle of stimulus-Response.
She blinded Terezi because Terezi had blown up the cueball. Terezi had blown up the Cueball because she had killed Aradia. She killed Aradia because Aradia sent ghosts to torment her, and Aradia did that because she crippled Tavros.
Now, while the Revenge provides insight into her character, the initial event is what we really need to look at. Why did she send Tavros over that cliff? Because she could, because she had him in her power and at her mercy. Thinking about it, so much of her character is wrapped up in Control issues, maybe because, while she has the power to Control others, she has so little control. While other trolls get to grow and explore, she must dedicate her life to finding food for her Lusus. In battle, other trolls have some control over their capabilities, she just rolls the dice. Upon learning that Jack was going to exist anyway, she decided to make it happen, so that she could be in Control, even if she was acting out a script already written.

I think the reason she has so many defenders is because there exists in her a potential for her to be good, maybe even virtuous. Because we can chart her path from innocent grub to the sadistic, insecure murderer she becomes. And how, after everything, she shows some remorse.
For example, making Tavros's flying chair. She didn't have to send him the pshoooooes code, she could have just made some ramps, but no she goes all-out and makes his dreams of flight come true. We see the potential for redemption in her, she dies before she achieves it, but we see it.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im on the side that thought she squandered her redemption potential almost immediately.

I don't want to get into it too deep but any thing she ever did "Good" felt more psychotic and sort of a weird justification kind way.
Except when she simply feels sorrow over her one action, then thats the only point I considered her potentially redemption worthy.
Yet she squanders it almost immediately by trying to confront jack.

[Capt. Ido Nos]

I have to say, plain and simple, I have loved the sheer amount of noise the mspa fandom has made over this past week, from the complete spectrum of joy and delight, bewilderment, and rage. So so great, and that's saying something, compared to how great these updates have been. It's almost been just one giant schadenfreude smoothie with Wild Mass Guessing sprinkles with a fanart cherry on top. :')

Tavros's legs being broken is also clearly not a problem with the ease of replacing of limbs. It took Equius less time than it took for Tavros to take a nap, him beyond the initial encounter, was keeping his handicap as a choice. Yes, I said that.

I'm not going to touch on the rest of the stuff you said - I don't want to throw fuel on that fire - but I will pause on this little bit right here.

I think that Tavros actually didn't willingly choose keep his handicap, really I don't think he had a choice with that. The way I see it, there are two things about the trolls and their limb replacements that we've seen, and I just want to point them out.

First is that the only place we have actually specifically seen limb replacements be provided has been through Equius. While this doesn't normally discount other trolls in Alternian society from being able to produce them, you're not going to find many adults specifically trained to do that, and Equius seems to be painted as being specifically and unusually talented at that process. It might well be he is the only one. The trick here is that we haven't seen or heard of anyone else that provides this service, and in MSPA I have learned that making assumptions like that doesn't always set my own theories up for success. More so, Vriska's ancestor specifically sought out Equius's ancestor for the same reason.

This leads me to my second thought: if Equius is the only one who can make and attach new limbs, why would he have any reason to give them to Tavros? The kid's a lowblood peasant who lives out in the country. Equius cares very STRONGLY about caste, and I don't see him being the type to just up and give Tavros new legs just be asked for them, certainly not gratis for that matter. And whatever price he would set on a pair of legs was probably more than what Tavros would be willing to pay, however the Alternian economy worked for young grubs, who knows?

So that's how I see it: while the process itself seems easy, the talent has at least the appearance of scarcity, and what talent there was wouldn't have been very willing to give Tavros a hand/leg. That's my two bits.

Heh.

Spoiler

Show

This is absolutely glorious.

edit: Oh yeah, I forgot! I'm drawing all the trolls for practice over in my drawthread. Two down, a steadily increasing number to go!

Spoiler

Show

[irenicObserver]

The Abomination, The Bard and Crocker.
BESTIES 4EVER. And then Dirk will come in, Gamzee prototypes Equius and Nepeta, giving us
Dirk, Equius, and a Feline.
After that, he prototypes Eridan and Feferi when Roxy comes in, giving us
A Girl, an Heiress, and an Intolerable Jerk.
And barring any more deaths, Jake's entry entry will give Sollux's prototyping, leaving us with:
A Killed Lad, and a Mage.

This sounds plausible .3.

[Gez]

About Gamzee's excuse for being a psychotic murderclown, remember he has Lil Cal with him before he goes off the deep end. I think in the end, this plays a more important part than getting off the drug haze, experiencing a crisis of faith over the MiRaClEs ICP clip, or anything else.

This leads me to my second thought: if Equius is the only one who can make and attach new limbs, why would he have any reason to give them to Tavros? The kid's a lowblood peasant who lives out in the country. Equius cares very STRONGLY about caste, and I don't see him being the type to just up and give Tavros new legs just be asked for them, certainly not gratis for that matter. And whatever price he would set on a pair of legs was probably more than what Tavros would be willing to pay, however the Alternian economy worked for young grubs, who knows?

uHHHHHHHHH,
sORRY I ASKED,
oBVIOUSLY IT WAS VERY IMPROPER OF ME TO THINK A HIGHBLOOD LIKE YOU CRAFT SOMETHING FOR FREE,,,
wHY ARE YOU SWEETING SO MUCH ALL OF A SUDDEN?

[lord pringle]

This is great. Tavrisprite is going to be such a funny character for the next few pages.

[BRC]

This is great. Tavrisprite is going to be such a funny character for the next few pages.

Really, all I can think about is the existential horror Tavrisprite must be going through. He/she has the memories of both a Victim and his Tormentor running around in his/her head, plus some irreconcilable personalities.

[PrinceAquilaDei]

Hey, people are trying to justify Vriska's actions, that has got to be a first.

Highlight of the entire discussion must be Fan questioning the ethical character of everyone who disagrees with him on the same page that he tried to give Vriska the moral highground on Aradia.

edit: Oh yeah, I forgot! I'm drawing all the trolls for practice over in my drawthread. Two down, a steadily increasing number to go!

Spoiler

Show

I didn't comment on this in your thread because I had nothing truly useful to say, but I really like your Gamzee and Equius is good too! And don't you dare not save Aradia for last, she deserves the best you have.

[Tectonic Robot]

I didn't say nobody loves flawed characters. I said many people have a tendency to ignore the flaws or to focus on them as if that was all there was to them.

Vriska, for instance. Some people feel she is an irredeemable monster with no positive features at all. Other people feel like she is completely justified in everything she did, because of the circumstances in which she was raised.

For example, nobody likes Lord English because he is obviously pure evil. But I'd be willing to bet if Gez's theory was true, and that Jake becomes Lord English, a lot of people would start proclaiming that Lord English isn't that bad a guy at all. He's just misunderstood. Really, it's the circumstances that are at fault.

It's the same mentality that drives people to make constant threads about how Thog isn't really Evil in alignment, because he likes puppies and ice cream.

I beg to differ! I love Lord English!

[Lix Lorn]

Heh.

Spoiler

Show

This is why I am upset.

It feels like Hussie listened to what I wanted, and then deliberately made it come true in a literal-genie fashion just to upset me.

I know Hussie is a troll. I read MSPA despite that. Not because.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Update, yo.

There. Vriska fans can now be happy.

Have fun.

[mizzim]

... I think I'm going to go with 'okay, wha?' for this one.
I really want to know what that desert is... and why there's a windmill there.

[AgentPaper]

Fandom.

Fandom.

Fandom, no. No.

Fandom, no, shoosh.

Pap, paaap, no, shooosh.

Shoosh fandom.

Pap pap.

No.

Fandom.

Shooooooosh

Fandom

PAPPAPPAPPAPPAPPAPpAPPapAPpappAPpapappap pap PAP Pap pap...pap...

Shoosh...

Pap.

It's okay, fandom.

It's okay.

[maximus25]

Aw he ruined it...

[Devils_Advocate]

They still might get pulled back together if the sprite had Vriska's god-tier resurrection abilities and their death didn't qualify as heroic or just. D:

I really want to know what that desert is... and why there's a windmill there.

I'm pretty sure they're in the dream-bubble memory of Tavros's land, where we last saw Vriska wandering. I think that the windmills there (and the one on Tavros's hive) are sort of an allusion to Don Quixote.

(Maybe AH will make an appearance soon?)

This is why I am upset.

It feels like Hussie listened to what I wanted, and then deliberately made it come true in a literal-genie fashion just to upset me.

I know Hussie is a troll. I read MSPA despite that. Not because.

One could argue that Hussie often attempts to be funny in much the same way in which Vriska often attempted to help Tavros -- that is to say, in pretty nearly the most abusive fashion possible.

That Andrew Huss, that Andrew Huss.
I do not like that Andrew Huss.

Do you not kill your heroes thus?

[irenicObserver]

Ah, so he was jerking at our heartstrings. So, if they are dead, then we may get some closure on their relationship as they talk out their feelings. And yes, it is likely the sprite inherited everything from it's predecessors; why wouldn't it?

[Capt. Ido Nos]

All this chaos is simply priceless! I love it I love it I love it.

[Scowling Dragon]

All this chaos is simply priceless! I love it I love it I love it.

Whilst I love the suffering. MMMMMMMMM thats good suffering.

[Orran]

Am I the only one who loves gamzee? He's freaking awesome for a psychotic murderclown.

[Arrghus]

Am I the only one who loves gamzee? He's freaking awesome for a psychotic murderclown.

A lot of people like Gamzee as a character. What they're talking about is mostly how they'd like him as a person, i.e., how they'd react if he was an actual person, as opposed to a fictional construct.

[Zejety]

Am I the only one who loves gamzee? He's freaking awesome for a psychotic murderclown.

For the last past days I've felt great about being a Capricorn

[Anarion]

Ah, so he was jerking at our heartstrings. So, if they are dead, then we may get some closure on their relationship as they talk out their feelings. And yes, it is likely the sprite inherited everything from it's predecessors; why wouldn't it?

Closure. Pfft, hahahahahahahah. Oh, that would be a good one. I'd love to be wrong, but I'll be surprised if he doesn't cut back to Jane right away.

A lot of people like Gamzee as a character. What they're talking about is mostly how they'd like him as a person, i.e., how they'd react if he was an actual person, as opposed to a fictional construct.

Gamzee is freakin scary. Run away screaming if he you meet him a dark alley scary.

[Radar]

Gamzee is freakin scary. Run away screaming if he you meet him a dark alley scary.

Nonononono, no! He might find it entertaining and chase you down. You should back away all calm and composed.

[Zejety]

Playing Rayman Origins I couldn't help but think of the Squiddles when this song played during an underwater stage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV0MJ4NfW1E

[Lix Lorn]

One could argue that Hussie often attempts to be funny in much the same way in which Vriska often attempted to help Tavros -- that is to say, in pretty nearly the most abusive fashion possible.

This is true.
As I said, this is a problem I work past, not part of the appeal.

Do you not kill your heroes thus?

I would not, could not just for fun.
I will not, will not with a gun
I will not kill them with a broom
I will not kill them with a boom
Not with a wand, not cut in two,
Not with a bow, it just won't do
I do not kill them with a club
I do not kill them with a glub
I will not kill them with a stab
I will not kill them on a slab
I do not kill them, big or small
I would not kill them, not at all.
I do not kill my heroes thus!
I do not kill them, Andrew Huss.

A lot of people like Gamzee as a character. What they're talking about is mostly how they'd like him as a person, i.e., how they'd react if he was an actual person, as opposed to a fictional construct.

Agreed. He's a good character.
He just terrifies me beyond belief.

[Scowling Dragon]

Meh, I enjoy my relationship to Hussie.

Without him prodding the fan-base with an tazer of a stick every once in a while what would homestuck be?

Not Homestuck.

[Tectonic Robot]

Pfffft.

I love almost everything Hussie does.

I guess that makes me a complacent consumer, or some such? My standards are much too low?

The only way he could get my dander up is if Lord English dies in a stupid, boring fashion. Which, I suppose, could probably happen. But, um, yeah.

I think he's kind of funny.

[Radar]

Could anyone please point me to the original of the sonnet used around here recently?