MS Paint Adventures V: THIS IS STUPID

[Inyssius Tor]

Attacks shmaks. Hate still hurts

I lived in hate of everything and myself for years, never attacking anybody. It led to so many Physical and Psychological problems in my body.

The thing is, a healthy blackrom relationship isn't actually have anything to do with hate. They say it does, but that's just not so. A kismesissitude tainted by actual loathing is a kismesissitude doomed to fail; just ask Mindfang, she'll tell you so herself. Initially, she thought Dualscar would be a great kismesis; and then he started actually trying to hurt her emotionally, and she realized he actually loathed her, and the romance went out of their relationship just like that. It stopped being a blackrom relationship.

A healthy blackrom relationship between trolls is rivalry, not hatred. You make fun of one another, and both of you enjoy it. (And if they enjoy winning a particular game more than you enjoy losing it, you can look forward to scoring a point on them later, and the pleasure of that anticipation and the increased enjoyment you'll get for finally taking "revenge" will more than make up the difference.) You can go on at length about how eeeeeevil the other guy is, but it's closer to a love poem than an angry rant, with clever turns of phrase and sly compliments and little facetious jabs to serve as the opening salvo of the next round of the game. Maybe you have swordfights, but only if you both think swordfighting is fun, not to actually hurt one another (unless you're into that sort of thing--personally, I'd be all over that) and if you slipped up and actually killed them, you'd be broken-hearted and wracked with guilt and you'd never forgive yourself. And at the end of the day, if you notice they're feeling down or looking out-of-sorts, you try to cheer them up.

I mean, obviously trolls take the idea and run with it, they're more inclined to it than we are both culturally and biologically, but that's the basic thing. It's a friendly competition, not a screaming argument. Even if it looks a lot like a screaming argument, it's just a friendly competition wearing a very convincing disguise.

(Or it's an actual screaming argument, I guess. I mean, sometimes people get actual angry at one another. But that's not the point of the thing.)

At some point near the top of this post, you may have stopped and said, "Wait, that's not how they describe it!" And to that I reply, yeah, but for one thing, my way fits what we've actually seen in-comic much better than theirs, and two, the trolls we are interacting with are thirteen years old and steeped in a culture explicitly designed to make them psychotic killers. That they're as comparatively clear-headed as they are has got to be some sort of crazy troll miracle.

[Scowling Dragon]

Karkat, Master of Relationships:

CG: BOTH PARTIES HAVE TO HATE EACH OTHER EQUALLY, I MEAN LIKE TRUE HATE.

From the wiki:

This is what a troll feels towards someone known as their kismesis. This is linked to hatred, and it is necessary that both parties feel hatred towards each other. Not any kind of hatred will do, since there is such a thing as platonic hatred amongst trolls (similar to the human concept of platonic love).
In other words, kismesissitude seems to be based on a mix of hatred and sexual attraction. As it thrives on a rivalry between two trolls, defeating or killing your kismesis is discouraged, since obviously there wouldn't be a relationship anymore.

An example: Spades Slick and Snowman had a Kissmistude. She chopped his arm off and when kissing they where biting each other lips off. This was not "Friendly Rivalry". Hussie confirmed that its a great example of Kismessitude.

This is the type of Rivalry/ Hate you see in "There will be Blood".

Now imagine it with sexual attraction involved. Yeah. Nasty.

I guess the relationship between Jack and PM is "Friendly Rivalry"

edit: Just because we see some people not killing each other does not mean it does not equate to hate.

Hatred explains much more relationships then "Friendly Rivalry" does.

[irenicObserver]

What? Whats the reason and what blood?

Well at first I though Tavros went along with it just because she put the thought in his head, but he seems to be of his on free will. I was just saying because if he had blood around the blue range (or even just Teal) he'd be immune to ♏anipul8ion.

Yeah fair enough.

We do need to remember that this not human society though, Vriska's actions are probably entirely acceptable to a great majority of troll culture.

The thing is though despite it being socially acceptable it could be argue that objectively it is still wrong. For one, this is troll society after corruption by the antagonistic force driving the conflict of the story. And the second, just because something is majorily accepted does not mean it's right either, it's still a subjective viewpoint that makes the point an invalid argument. it's comparable to saying because other characters accepted her behavior it is right.

EDIT:

They are biologically built for back romance^{[citation needed]}

When was this stated?

[Friv]

When was this stated?

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004296

To summarize the important bit:

The genetic material - WITHOUT GOING INTO MUCH DETAIL - is a combinative genetic mix from the matesprit and kismesis pairs, respectively. The pails are all offered to the mother grub, who can only receive such precombined material. She then combines all of it into one incestuous slurry, and begins her brooding.

[Draconi Redfir]

The thing is though despite it being socially acceptable it could be argue that objectively it is still wrong. For one, this is troll society after corruption by the antagonistic force driving the conflict of the story.

It's troll society with a little bit of outside help thrown in.

Just because i'm making a pot of soup and you throw in some beef and vegitables doesn't make it any less my soup.


Also this.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im pretty sure no.

Unless DAH HUSS wants to reveal that very little has changed and that trolls generaly always where bastards, I doubt he would make it that nothing much has changed.

Because then we don't see Scrathmiestah as a evil guy. Just as a guy that made some light alterations.

Thus Its much more likely that trolls where NOT a society halfway powered by hatred.

[irenicObserver]

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004296

To summarize the important bit:

:/ The doesn't say anything at all about being biologically built for blackrom, just that they have kismesii(?) and matesprits which we already know, in post-scratch Alternia, mixed incestously by the creature most likely to have been imported by Doc Scratch.

It's troll society with a little bit of outside help thrown in.

Just because i'm making a pot of soup and you throw in some beef and vegitables doesn't make it any less my soup.

I want you to prove to me that it was a "little bit" of outside influence. We don't have a single point of reference outside of Alternian (which is also not its native name) society. Basically, there's a reason it's called Post-Scratch. Because you are making a pot of soup and someone comes in to spoil the whole thing makes it not your soup. Stop dismissing me with insubstantial evidence.

[Draconi Redfir]

I want you to prove to me that it was a "little bit" of outside influence. We don't have a single point of reference outside of Alternian (which is also not its native name) society. Basically, there's a reason it's called Post-Scratch. Because you are making a pot of soup and someone comes in to spoil the whole thing makes it not your soup. Stop dismissing me with insubstantial evidence.

Urgh, alright look.


Pre scratch and post scratch are not the same thing.

They are made from the same components true

But they have been put together in entirely different ways.

JUST BECAUSE one came first does not mean that the second is automatically supposed to be identical to the first.

The troll planet? The one Karkat and crew came from? It's name is Alternia, it had two moons, was populated by giant milk white fauna, and it's people were raised to be as violent and strong as possible. This is their culture.


The other one? The one Meeneh and crew came from? Same building blocks, but different. Not Alternia, not the same culture.


When i talk about ALTERNIA and ALTERNIAN CULTURE then that means i am talking about ALTERNIA and ALTERNIAN CULTURE. I don’t give a ship about what nice flower-picking culture the planet had in it's previous incarnation, it's the successful and more violent one that I’m talking about, it is the one where gentle nudges by a man with a big white head caused trolls to idolize strength and surviving. The trolls did that. He did not. He just gave them the idea. Doc scratch did not sit down with all the trolls one day and tell them "hey, how about you all start killing eachother and whoever stays alive is more deserving of it okay?" no, the trolls figured this out, on their own. They had a little bit of help, an animal that did not exist on the planets previous incarnation picking up a grub and caring for it here, a crazed redblood stirring thoughts of revolution there, small, insignificant tiny things that only served to guide the trolls on the path that would lead them to victory, something which i will remind you the previous incarnation of the planet was unable to achieve.

When i say that causing the demise of another troll is an acceptable happening in Alternian culture, it does not mean i am saying that it was acceptable in whatever other name it used to have, I don’t care about them, i am saying it is acceptable on Alternia, which is the planet i am talking about.

When i say i am making soup, i mean i am throwing in noodles, chicken, carrots, celery, and seasoning. and doc scratch is only throwing in a few red hot peppers to spice things up a bit.

I am still mixing the soup, i am still in posession of the soup,

it is still my soup.

[Scowling Dragon]

Uh HELLO! We don't KNOW the extent of the change.

From what we know at the very least scratch added:

Another moon (Pretty big difference)

A mile wide aberration from the dungeon dimensions thats under the control of a near immortal evil qeen that can kill the whole troll race if said queen does not enjoy her rain of terror. Said beast must be placated by guardians of children.

On rereading what you wrote I have no idea what you are talking about.

What are you arguing? That alternia didn't change?

We know that not true, but not to which extent. You cannot possibly know.

[AgentPaper]

On rereading what you wrote I have no idea what you are talking about.

What are you arguing? That alternia didn't change?

We know that not true, but not to which extent. You cannot possibly know.

I think what he's saying is that the post-scratch trolls are biologically built for blackrom. We don't know if the pre-scratch trolls were as well, but the post-scratch ones definitely were.

[Scowling Dragon]

I think what he's saying is that the post-scratch trolls are biologically built for blackrom. We don't know if the pre-scratch trolls were as well, but the post-scratch ones definitely were.

Alright. Im pretty sure they are.

[mizzim]

Alright. Im pretty sure they are.

I think we won't know until Hussie stops being eeeeeeeevil (so, never) and updates with more about Not!Alternia.

[Draconi Redfir]

What i was saying that compairing pre and post scratch alternia and trying to say "what post-scratch did was wrong because pre-scratch would not have done it" is like compairing fire to ice. the two are entirely different things and have no connection whatsoever aside from simmiler building blocks.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im not sure anybody was (Maybe...)

I think this was about justifying deaths...I think?

[Draconi Redfir]

bleh you know what? i dont even know anymore, i'm tired, i'm sorry.


Looking back to what i quoted though, i may have also been saying that Alternian culture is still Alternian culture and was still created by Alternians, Scratch just threw in some small things to make it go in the general direction he wanted.

[Scowling Dragon]

bleh you know what? i dont even know anymore, i'm tired, i'm sorry.

Yeah. Happen to everybody. Whatever. Lets just enjoy the show.

edit:

She also most likely exported water from the moon since there isn't enough water in all the icecaps to flood the whole earth.

[The_Final_Stand]

Indeed. However, currently the story is "How the Batterwitch Took Over The World".

Evidently, that Alternian fauna on Jake's island was placed there by BC as part of her "shadowy takeover" phase, Gl'bgolyb, or an equivalently hard to pronounce relative of it's, was the mass of tentacles we saw in Jane:Enter wrapped around the frog temple, and Jane is the only one of the kids locked out of the loop.

[Scowling Dragon]

She most likely resurrected the past Lusi using the time travel abilities of Lord English.

Its funny that in her madness she was reduced to playing with robots and Chess-pieces.

[BRC]

So If I'm reading this right, First she tried to bring back the Trolls, then she tried to make Humans act like Trolls, then she just settled on bossing around the Carapaces. Also I'm questioning Dirk's "I raised myself" claim. Dirk frequently overstates his own capabilities (See above "Staring off into space for ten minutes"). We have examples of Trolls raising themselves (Terezi), but the way it's framed just makes it sound like more of Dirks overly inflated ego.

[JadedDM]

I'm skeptical of Dirk's claim, too. He raised himself from a baby? He fed himself, changed his own diapers, etc.? Yeah, not buying it.

[memnarch]

I'm skeptical of Dirk's claim, too. He raised himself from a baby? He fed himself, changed his own diapers, etc.? Yeah, not buying it.

Well, he had lil' Cal to take care of him.

[BRC]

My guess is that either Gamzee or Davesprite went through a Skaia-Portal to reach post-scratch Earth and raised Dirk. I'm leaning more towards Gamzee because Dirk seems convinced that he raised himself, and of the two, Gamzee would be whimsical enough to give Dirk the "Secret Lusus" treatment.

[Draconi Redfir]

Maybe for the first few years he kinda just... let it drop and ate what he could find.

An incredibly unhealthy phase if you will.



And do we even know if she has any time travel powers? I mean yes the handmaid had them, and she's kind of her rplacement, but we haven't really been shown them yet.

[Squark]

Alternatively, Lil Cal really did raise Dirk from a baby, and the stress of raising someone who didn't fear him at all eventually killed him, so now he's just an immobile puppet.

[Friv]

:/ The doesn't say anything at all about being biologically built for blackrom, just that they have kismesii(?) and matesprits which we already know, in post-scratch Alternia, mixed incestously by the creature most likely to have been imported by Doc Scratch.

Well, there was kind of a fight about this while I was gone, but the point I was making from that sequence was:

1) Mother grubs are the only way for trolls to reproduce, to the point that Kanaya losing hers meant the extinction of her species.
2) Mother grubs cannot create more trolls without a mixture of material from redrom and blackrom pairings.
3) Karkat created the troll ancestors in post-scratch Alternia, as well as in his own Alternia, and sent them to both sides of the Scratch. He used post-Scratch Alternia as his ectobiology source (we assume, since he didn't have any way of seeing pre-Scratch Alternia).

Therefore, blackrom is a critical part of troll biology, and was on both sides of the Scratch. Otherwise, the trolls who were sent back to the Scratch would have been built wrong.

[Scowling Dragon]

3) Karkat created the troll ancestors in post-scratch Alternia, as well as in his own Alternia, and sent them to both sides of the Scratch. He used post-Scratch Alternia as his ectobiology source (we assume, since he didn't have any way of seeing pre-Scratch Alternia).

Nope. The Pre-Scratch Players and THIER ancestors all died.

Post Scratch karkat created post scratch players and ancestors and sent them into post scratch alternia throughout time.

Only in the earth session where the pre-scratch kids the ones ALSO in the new session.

[Draconi Redfir]

Nope. The Pre-Scratch Players and THIER ancestors all died.

Post Scratch karkat created post scratch players and ancestors and sent them into post scratch alternia throughout time.

Only in the earth session where the pre-scratch kids the ones ALSO in the new session.

Aaaand you know this how?


From the pre-scratch players we've seen, it's pretty clear they are alternate versions of mindfang and the empress, wich we have seen in the post-scratch. is it realy that hard to assume that what happened to the kids also happened to the trolls in a bit of a reversed manner?

[Scowling Dragon]

Because thats impossible:

We Know Karkat cloned them all, and sent them through gates: Gates that lead ONLY to Post scratch alternia. The scratch didn't happen in post scratch alternia session, and no gates where opened to the pre-scratch.

[Draconi Redfir]

Because thats impossible:

We Know Karkat cloned them all, and sent them through gates: Gates that lead ONLY to Post scratch alternia. The scratch didn't happen in post scratch alternia session, and no gates where opened to the pre-scratch.

Ok, that makes sense. But consider for a fact that Doc scratch apparently said the pre-scratch trolls could not win because they were not created in their session, so if they did not create themselves, and karkat could not create them, then they never would have played, thus no scratch.

I think an easy assumption to make would be that when karkats grubs were sent out on the meteors, they and the rest of the meteors were sent to the pre-scratch era, they then grew up, played the game, and could not win. So they scratched, and as with the kids, skia changed its portals to chance the circumstances. Only it wasn’t THEIR skia that changed, somehow Karkat's skia picked up the signal, and changed the portals at the last second, resulting in the trolls and ancestors arriving at the destinations we know and love today.

[Scowling Dragon]

Ok, that makes sense. But consider for a fact that Doc scratch apparently said the pre-scratch trolls could not win because they were not created in their session, so if they did not create themselves, and karkat could not create them, then they never would have played, thus no scratch.

Schenanigains. Equally as Valid. Somebody else (A third group) created them. Or perhaps they are the glitch in the universes that started the whole "Evil lord english" thing.

The reason I think my theory holds more water (Is because we are psychologically programed to do so) and because this way Pre-Scratch alternia doesn't have black rom, thus creating a society thats actually posible to at least have some decent peace.

I think an easy assumption to make would be that when karkats grubs were sent out on the meteors, they and the rest of the meteors were sent to the pre-scratch era, they then grew up, played the game, and could not win. So they scratched, and as with the kids, skia changed its portals

Except they couldn't have. Then Post-Scratch portals already sent them to pre-scratch. The pre-scratch alteria would unlikely have power over post scratch alternia. It would have to effect post scratch alternia to send them to post scratch so then one portal sending a baby would send one copy to post scratch AND pre-scratch at the same time.

Thing is for a couple of portals to randomly NOT send them to Post Scratch skia seems like kind of a lazy eh moment.