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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninevah View Post
    I love this listing and hope it continues to be updated in the future!

    There are a couple of mistakes in the listings for Paladin Oaths, though:

    Wyrm and Vengeance both modify/replace Channel Energy, so they can't be combined.

    Chastity and Savagery both modify/replace Divine Grace, so they can't be combined.
    Finally have time to sit down and check and you are indeed correct. Let me fix those.

    As for future content, I have been thinking that I may have some time soon and I've been itching to get back to this handbook, so, while I can't promise deadlines, since I keep missing those in other personal projects, I may be able to get back on this.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Not sure if I am allowed to post here but. Pistolero does not Replace Gun Training. So you get Gun Training + Pistol Training at fifth level meaning you ad Dex x2 to damage of your pistol shots.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfInTheFlask View Post
    Not sure if I am allowed to post here but. Pistolero does not Replace Gun Training. So you get Gun Training + Pistol Training at fifth level meaning you ad Dex x2 to damage of your pistol shots.
    It's a Guide/Handbook thing, the threadcromancy rules are relaxed.

    And it is widely agreed upon that the intent is that it DOES replace Gun Training, and that it is waiting for (LOOONG overdue) errata.

    If you can convince your DM go nuts.
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    I have used it with a Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero Build and I was doing great damage it at least made being a gunslinger useful damage wise.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Errata is produced when a book is reprinted. Ultimate Combat has yet to be reprinted, hence, no errata.

    The closest we've got to a ruling on the subject is JB saying it probably shouldn't work that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    I am sure it was intended to be that way. But it is not like it is breaking the game to add Dex twice to damage, even if you tag on Charisma with Mysterious Strange at most if you had 18 in both scores you are dealing 12+1d8 damage at 5 on. Of course adding other things like Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus did do a little better to make it hit harder and more often but that can be said of any work up with feats.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfInTheFlask View Post
    I am sure it was intended to be that way. But it is not like it is breaking the game to add Dex twice to damage, even if you tag on Charisma with Mysterious Strange at most if you had 18 in both scores you are dealing 12+1d8 damage at 5 on. Of course adding other things like Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus did do a little better to make it hit harder and more often but that can be said of any work up with feats.
    One of the driving factors in favor of "replaces Gun Training" is the wording.

    Gun Training:
    "She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4."

    Pistol Training:
    " She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4."

    Also, compare Pistol Training to Musket Training which DOES replace Gun Training:

    (hint: if you remove the word "two" it becomes IDENTICAL to Pistol Training)
    "Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm."


    Good for you and all for getting your DM to let you have both.
    But the intent is clearly in favor of "Replaces Gun Training".
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Why is the only question I can think of.

    If it is indeed identical to in text and intent.. why change it at all? The name? Its Gun Training.. its generic enough to be used by any gun users period. So why replace the entire feature with one that does the Exact same just with a slightly different name.

    Any precedents on that? [I would like to say I completely agree with you it probably does]

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfInTheFlask View Post
    Why is the only question I can think of.

    If it is indeed identical to in text and intent.. why change it at all? The name? Its Gun Training.. its generic enough to be used by any gun users period. So why replace the entire feature with one that does the Exact same just with a slightly different name.
    Because it isn't the _exact_ same ability.
    Gun Training works on any gun, and the "every four levels" bonus is choosing another gun for those bonuses.
    Pistol/Musket Training works for a specific type of gun, and gets +1 Damage every four levels.
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    The idea is that the pistolero, as JB said, should focus on pistols. If he is just as good with every other gun as a regular gunslinger and only happens to be even more awesomer with pistols then there's no tradeoff there.

    Until there's a FAQ or errata it is what it is, but that doesn't make it right.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Cieyrin, if I could ask you to do me a huge favor, do you think you could include some of the third party archetypes, as well? The ones from Dreamscarred Press especially seem to be growing in popularity, at least as far as I've seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Fortunately, a Monk 1/Warblade 19 uses Iron Heart Surge to end the Monk character class, and the day is saved.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf DW View Post
    Cieyrin, if I could ask you to do me a huge favor, do you think you could include some of the third party archetypes, as well? The ones from Dreamscarred Press especially seem to be growing in popularity, at least as far as I've seen.
    I don't tend to do 3rd party stuff, especially when I haven't read it. I do intend to try to update this for NaNoWriMo, at least in theory. Let's see how well that works, as at the very least I'd like to add ARG to this handbook.
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I don't tend to do 3rd party stuff, especially when I haven't read it. I do intend to try to update this for NaNoWriMo, at least in theory. Let's see how well that works, as at the very least I'd like to add ARG to this handbook.
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    I can do the DSP stuff - I already did the Soulknife archetype combos in my handbook (and even borrowed Cieyrin's format.) When Ultimate Psionics comes out I'll do the others.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I can do the DSP stuff - I already did the Soulknife archetype combos in my handbook (and even borrowed Cieyrin's format.) When Ultimate Psionics comes out I'll do the others.
    Fine by me, I'm quite content to copypasta additional content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    First set of contributions are in, Dwarven archetypes along with the Iconoclast Inquisitor archetype that I somehow missed out of UC. I also decided to standardize the ordering of class features replaced for easier comparison, as well as remove the struck out not recommended archetype designation, as I think that's outside the realm of what I meant this guide for. I put in 2 new designations, the first of which is (Paranthesed), which designates racial restrictions on archetypes.

    The second may be slightly controversial, which is Underlined, which designates features that were meant to be replaced but got left off or typo'd. Not all of these are FAQ'd or errata'd (like Pistolero's Pistol Training or the Oath of Loyalty), so getting opinions on these changes may be of help. The sections that have thus far been edited with these changes are Inquisitor and Paladin, since that's where the Dwarf archetypes were. As I work further in (and recreate my notes, since the computer that had them died several months ago. ), they should become more prevalent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Fine by me, I'm quite content to copypasta additional content.
    Oh believe me, you have all the permissions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    The second may be slightly controversial, which is Underlined, which designates features that were meant to be replaced but got left off or typo'd. Not all of these are FAQ'd or errata'd (like Pistolero's Pistol Training or the Oath of Loyalty), so getting opinions on these changes may be of help. The sections that have thus far been edited with these changes are Inquisitor and Paladin, since that's where the Dwarf archetypes were.
    I only see underlines in the Paladin section?

    Note that just because a new ability is granted at X level it doesn't necessarily replace what you get at that level. For instance, the reverse - Menhir Savant replaces the Druid 2nd-level ability but gives them nothing in return IIRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I only see underlines in the Paladin section?
    I didn't recall whether any occurred in Inquisitor, I just know many of its archetypes interchange between Final and True Judgement, only one of which exists. I didn't indicate that in the handbook, though. The other sections that saw change were Cleric and Fighter, which don't, at least with what data I currently have, stack with each other, so there isn't a useful way to display it other than to list them out and say how they don't stack with anything else.

    Note that just because a new ability is granted at X level it doesn't necessarily replace what you get at that level. For instance, the reverse - Menhir Savant replaces the Druid 2nd-level ability but gives them nothing in return IIRC.
    Not quite my aim. I meant things like Divine Hunter replacing Aura of Righteousness when it meant Aura of Faith or Holy Gun forgetting it sacrifices Aura of Justice, an ability it otherwise can't power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Elven Archetypes now added, as well as reinstating Reincarnated Druid, which didn't get an entry for some reason.

    Sections that have been updated: Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Paladin, Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Note that Crossblooded and Wildblooded no longer stack (though they emphasize that the DM can override this if it's not gamebreaking.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    The tiefling-only Fiend Flayer archetype does not conflict with any other Magus archetypes, because it only gives a lame sacrifice ability and some options. It doesn't replace anything.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Note that Crossblooded and Wildblooded no longer stack (though they emphasize that the DM can override this if it's not gamebreaking.)
    Hmm, interesting development, that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    The tiefling-only Fiend Flayer archetype does not conflict with any other Magus archetypes, because it only gives a lame sacrifice ability and some options. It doesn't replace anything.
    It doesn't appear to, no. Fiendblades seem a way to get 2 customized magic weapons on a Magus, which is kinda interesting, maybe.

    Gnome archetypes, as well as updating Alchemist, Bard and Gunslinger sections, are all in. Alchemist and Bard in particular should be a bit easier to navigate now, with the class features standardized in order and, for Bards, the replaced Bardic Performances all in the same section.

    Sections updated: Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Paladin, Wizard.
    Sections Remaining: Barbarian, Cavalier(Samurai), Monk, Ranger, Rogue(Ninja), Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2013-11-10 at 05:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Note that Crossblooded and Wildblooded no longer stack (though they emphasize that the DM can override this if it's not gamebreaking.)
    Technically, they never stacked.
    And I like their cop-out answer about how "they don't work together at all ever, BUT HERE'S HOW THEY WOULD WORK TOGETHER IF THEY DID *WINK*"
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2013-11-10 at 05:43 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Also, I say the Fiend Flayer's ability to take Con damage for arcane points is bad, but its free, so I would still take it.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Hmm, interesting development, that.

    It doesn't appear to, no. Fiendblades seem a way to get 2 customized magic weapons on a Magus, which is kinda interesting, maybe.

    Gnome archetypes, as well as updating Alchemist, Bard and Gunslinger sections, are all in. Alchemist and Bard in particular should be a bit easier to navigate now, with the class features standardized in order and, for Bards, the replaced Bardic Performances all in the same section.

    Sections updated: Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Paladin, Wizard.
    Sections Remaining: Barbarian, Cavalier(Samurai), Monk, Ranger, Rogue(Ninja), Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch
    Awesome! Thanks a bunch. This is still the only decent resource I can find for archetype compatibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Fortunately, a Monk 1/Warblade 19 uses Iron Heart Surge to end the Monk character class, and the day is saved.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Half-Elf archetypes in, as well as Ranger, Summoner and Witch sections updated. I changed my mind again on the working of Broodmaster to a compromise, where it alters the Eidolon ability. This means no more Master Broodmasters (like anyone did that) but also makes it consistent so there were no Brood Synthesists, either, which my guide was suggesting was possible, if slightly. This also means that Broodmasters can be Evolutionists, at least for now. Feel free to weigh in on multi-archetyped Broodmasters, though I still think Broodmasters are subpar and should have been designed like how the other multi-companion archetypes (Beastmaster Ranger, Packlord Druid, etc) were designed instead of the mess they chose.

    Sections updated: Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, Summoner, Witch, Wizard
    Sections Remaining: Barbarian, Cavalier(Samurai), Monk, Rogue(Ninja), Sorcerer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Hi, It's look like a good step. I think its very useful. We can try it.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmiller58 View Post
    Hi, It's look like a good step. I think its very useful. We can try it.
    I think I speak for many people here when I say "What"
    If directly replying to someone, please use the "Quote" button towards the bottom right on the post, that way we know who and what you are referencing.
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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    For a second I thought you said Broodmaster Synthesists! That would be cool though, having different forms to assume.

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    Default Re: [PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    For a second I thought you said Broodmaster Synthesists! That would be cool though, having different forms to assume.
    That's because I did. I personally find that thought unsettling...
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