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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Dominate Person Question

    Once a person is Dominated, is an attempt to re-Dominate them automatically successful to keep them in a state of perpetual Domination? If allies can willingly fail a save, and a Dominated person is more loyal than an ally, I'd assume so, but there might be some errata that I missed.

    Edit: Sorry - this probably goes in the Q&A thread...
    Last edited by Torq; 2012-01-19 at 07:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Yes, that is completely possible. Behold, you just found one of the many ways a Wizard can be broken. This isn't even one of the bad ones.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    In most cases, I would rule that an order to fail a save against a new Dominate Person would be at least against the subject's nature and possibly even obviously self-destructive. Thus, attempting to do this would either not work at all or would give the subject a chance to break free immediately.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    If the target doesn't know he is dominated and doesn't know it will be dominate spell (bluff him think it is buff or something.) yeah sure.

    But if he has reason to doubt then perhaps it would give some penalty to saving throw

    and if he knows he is dominated then normal saving throw.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    In most cases, I would rule that an order to fail a save against a new Dominate Person would be at least against the subject's nature and possibly even obviously self-destructive. Thus, attempting to do this would either not work at all or would give the subject a chance to break free immediately.
    So I say to them, "Hey, I have this awesome buff for you so just go with it." They have no reason to distrust me. They love me.

    Of course, I wanted to do this to a caster, so they'd likely make the Spellcraft check, thereby calling my bluff. My buff bluff.

    EDIT: Ninja'd. Basically what he said ^^^
    Last edited by Torq; 2012-01-19 at 09:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Torq View Post
    Of course, I wanted to do this to a caster, so they'd likely make the Spellcraft check, thereby calling my bluff. My buff bluff.
    False Theurgy. Skill Trick, Complete Scoundrel I am never going to ban enchantment again. Hell, you could use the skill trick to get them to accept the initial casting
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-01-19 at 10:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    While limited, Enchantment could be one of the most powerful and useful schools. In fact, the reason there are so many immunities to it is otherwise it's far too powerful.

    It's one thing to kill an enemy. It's another thing to collect enemies as slaves and turn them against their former allies.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    So powerful, in fact, that a first-level spell can render it irrelevant.

    Also, you'd better keep them from interacting with... well, anyone who isn't you, because a DC 15 Sense Motive check is peanuts.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So powerful, in fact, that a first-level spell can render it irrelevant.
    Yeah, I kinda just mentioned the reason for that.

    Anyway, "Protection from [Alignment]" doesn't render it irrelevant. The spell has a duration of only minutes, and only temporarily suppresses Dominate, which will last 9 days at the lowest level you can cast it.

    Because of those defenses, Enchantment is weaker than it should be, no question. Without them, it would be way too powerful. Either way, when it works, Dominate is about the most powerful spell in the game.
    Last edited by Talya; 2012-01-19 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    False Theurgy. Skill Trick, Complete Scoundrel I am never going to ban enchantment again. Hell, you could use the skill trick to get them to accept the initial casting
    Yeah, enchantment, when it works, is made of win.

    Mindrape is arguably the single best spell in the game.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2012-01-19 at 03:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Yeah, I kinda just mentioned the reason for that.

    Anyway, "Protection from [Alignment]" doesn't render it irrelevant. The spell has a duration of only minutes, and only temporarily suppresses Dominate, which will last 9 days at the lowest level you can cast it.
    Yeah, but getting it constant is easy. In fact, anyone can suppress it indefinitely with a single feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Because of those defenses, Enchantment is weaker than it should be, no question. Without them, it would be way too powerful. Either way, when it works, Dominate is about the most powerful spell in the game.
    I disagree, even when it works there are fundamental drawbacks to the spell. The "against its nature" clause can add a bunch of saving throws if you don't know your victim inside out, good luck killing your slave if it gets captured or otherwise becomes trouble, language barrier is a factor... there are much more powerful spells out there even if we handwave the difficulty of landing it to begin with.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    It's one thing to kill an enemy. It's another thing to collect enemies as slaves and turn them against their former allies.
    Even Necromancy gets in on that action with Animate Dread Warrior.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Even Necromancy gets in on that action with Animate Dread Warrior.
    Oh, true. But that's not as easily doable in the same fight, is it? At the very least, you first need to kill them, THEN animate them. (And I don't have the books handy, how long is the casting time on Animate Dread warrior?) Dominate turns them into your servant on this turn, instantly. Instead of instantly killing your target, you instantly gain the target as an ally.

    Note, I'm not saying enchantment is overpowered, doing so would be silly, because it's so easy to defend against. I'm saying without excellent enchantment defenses, enchanters would easily rule every campaign setting in a matter of weeks.

    I think defenses against enchantment should be less...absolute. Force some kind of roll...CL check or something, then they still get the saving throw. It's okay for a spell which turns your enemy into your ally to have twice the failure rate as a spell which kills your enemy outright. But the absolute defenses available go a bit overboard.
    Last edited by Talya; 2012-01-19 at 05:16 PM.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    No, you can't force someone to fail his save against domination. If a wizard sneaks behind someone and cast Dominate that someone still gets his save, even if he didn't saw the spell coming. In the same way, lying to the victim of a Dominate Person won't prevent him from making a save.
    Most importantly, the spell never says that the person loves the caster or cares for him. It does say "Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus". The subject is resisting the spell constantly. That's way falling to concentrate on it for more than 24 hours or forcing someone to do something against it's nature causes a new save. You command him like a puppet, but the victim feelings towards the caster don't change.
    Last edited by Denamort; 2012-01-19 at 05:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Denamort View Post
    No, you can't force someone to fail his save against domination. If a wizard sneaks behind someone and cast Dominate that someone still gets his save, even if he didn't saw the spell coming. In the same way, lying to the victim of a Dominate Person won't prevent him from making a save.
    The person making a save always has the option of forgoing the save and automatically failing. This is rather important for a whole bunch of "harmless" spells that have saves and would otherwise be difficult to use. If you have already dominated someone, "fail your next save" (though it would be phrased in character more like "don't resist this next spell") is a valid order. Whether Dominate Person can force someone to obey it is another issue, but the order itself is valid with a legal game mechanical meaning.

    Lying to someone can't directly prevent someone from making a save, but it could convince someone to exercise his option to automatically fail - who would want to resist a healing (or whatever you tell him it is) spell, after all?
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    A charmed person trusts you. A dominated one does not, and will not take your word for it that you are doing something nice with your filthy black magic.
    Throw the dice high.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    I think defenses against enchantment should be less...absolute. Force some kind of roll...CL check or something, then they still get the saving throw. It's okay for a spell which turns your enemy into your ally to have twice the failure rate as a spell which kills your enemy outright. But the absolute defenses available go a bit overboard.
    Play Pathfinder - Mind Blank is no longer absolute, and Protection from Evil only suppresses compulsions if the target succeeds on a second save.
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessGnome View Post
    A charmed person trusts you. A dominated one does not, and will not take your word for it that you are doing something nice with your filthy black magic.
    99.99% of characters wordlessly accept (read: intentionally fail saves against) buff spells, even when they've previously come to blows with the caster, or have never even spoken to the caster before, and have no idea what spell is being cast due to not having ranks in Spellcraft.

    If you see someone casting Fox's Cunning on you (or whatever buff; false theurgy makes it look like any spell you want), you're going to accept it. Doing otherwise is metagaming.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    99.99% of characters wordlessly accept (read: intentionally fail saves against) buff spells, even when they've previously come to blows with the caster, or have never even spoken to the caster before, and have no idea what spell is being cast due to not having ranks in Spellcraft.

    If you see someone casting Fox's Cunning on you (or whatever buff; false theurgy makes it look like any spell you want), you're going to accept it. Doing otherwise is metagaming.
    Technically, wordlessly accepting buffs from casters you don't know or don't like is metagaming... Especially when you don't have ranks in Spellcraft!
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    If someone dominated me against my will, I would never voluntarily fail any will save they gave me the chance to make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If someone dominated me against my will, I would never voluntarily fail any will save they gave me the chance to make.
    This. So very much.
    Throw the dice high.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If someone dominated me against my will, I would never voluntarily fail any will save they gave me the chance to make.
    Well, then, you've gotta butter 'em up. Throughout their time under your domination, give them REAL buffs. They'll never see it coming when you redominate them. Heck, they won't even KNOW you redominated them, since they don't know how long your spell woulod've lasted. Just keep giving them a cycle of buffs and dominations. Treat them like they were a PC. (Wait, not everyone dominates their allies? Oops.)

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    I wouldn't let them buff me either. They are making me do things against my will. Why should I let them make me do them better?
    Throw the dice high.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessGnome View Post
    I wouldn't let them buff me either. They are making me do things against my will. Why should I let them make me do them better?
    You would have no choice. Is it normally within your nature to accept buffs? Then it's still within your nature when dominated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by legomaster00156 View Post
    You would have no choice. Is it normally within your nature to accept buffs? Then it's still within your nature when dominated.
    "You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subjectís mind."
    Making a will save, however, doesn't require an action.

    Furthermore, not resisting spells cast by a known enemy is not within anyone's nature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    This is why you charm people as well as dominate them.

    And then Mind Rape/Programmed Amnesia them.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2012-01-20 at 01:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Yep; "do exactly what I say," "trust me, I'm your friend," and "trust me, I'm your friend, do exactly what I say" are three different spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    And then Mind Rape/Programmed Amnesia them.
    Don't forget Holy Mindrape Sanctify the Wicked.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2012-01-20 at 01:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Don't forget Holy Mindrape Sanctify the Wicked.
    That's different. It's good for them.
    Throw the dice high.

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    Default Re: Dominate Person Question

    So, after the mind rape, you ask "Was it good for you?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessGnome View Post
    That's different. It's good for them.
    "Is Sanctify the Wicked morally justified?"

    Rather than answer that question, I prefer to just point out the ironic similarities between the three spells and leave it at that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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