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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGirl

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    Default Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Some of you--maybe--remember me from last year. I came in here and made two "Can We Fix It?" threads. I never took them too seriously and I'm not sure anyone else did, either. They were fun and silly and we came up with some interesting things with the Ranger. But there was something about the Fighter thread that just left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I tried a lot of experimental stuff with it and I don't think it ended up working.

    Due to this, I'm bringing it back for another round. Maybe this class can be saved.

    To those of you new to this kind of thread: anyone can chip in and suggest changes to the class to make the fighter what it always should have been. Below is everything I've done so far. Let's see what you guys come up with.

    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d10.

    Class Skills
    The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Martial Lore (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
    Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known
    1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat|4|2|1
    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat, bravery +1|5|2|1
    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Armor training 1|5|2|2
    4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat|6|2|2
    5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Weapon training 1|6|2|2
    6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, bravery +2|7|3|3
    7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Armor training 2|7|3|3
    8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat|8|3|3
    9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Weapon training 2|8|3|3
    10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, bravery +3|9|3|3
    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Armor training 3|9|3|4
    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat|10|4|4
    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Weapon training 3|10|4|4
    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat, bravery +4|11|4|4
    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Armor training 4|11|4|4
    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat|12|5|4
    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Weapon training 4|12|5|4
    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat, bravery +5|13|5|5
    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Armor mastery|13|5|5
    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, weapon mastery|14|6|5

    Class Features
    The following are class features of the fighter.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

    Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

    Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of two martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven.

    Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver usable by fighters is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.

    You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 1–3 in The Tome of Battle. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3–1, page 39 in The Tome of Battle, to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered fighter level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver in exchange for
    the new one. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. For example, upon reaching 10th level, you could trade in a single 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd- or 4th-level maneuver for a maneuver of 5th level or lower, as long as you meet the prerequisite of the new maneuver. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

    Maneuvers Readied: You can ready both of the maneuvers you know at 1st level, but as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you must choose with maneuvers to ready. You ready your maneuvers by exercising for five minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to exercise again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 fives in practice, you can change your readied maneuvers.

    You begin an encounter with all your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (until you recover them, as described below).

    You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.

    Stances Known: You begin play with the knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to fighters. At 5th, 13th, and 18th, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you are currently using as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description.

    Unlike with maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

    Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

    Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

    In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

    Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

    Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group and a weapon from this group can ignore DR 1/— and 5 hardness. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each, including DR, and the hardness the weapon may ignore increases by 5 each time. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.

    A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter’s Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

    Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):

    Axes: battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, light pick, orc double axe, and throwing axe.

    Blades, Heavy: bastard sword, elven curve blade, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe, and two-bladed sword.

    Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, starknife, and short sword.

    Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.

    Close: gauntlet, heavy shield, light shield, punching dagger, sap, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, and unarmed strike.

    Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, and light repeating crossbow.

    Double: dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword.

    Flails: dire flail, flail, heavy flail, morningstar, nunchaku, spiked chain, and whip.

    Hammers: club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, and warhammer.

    Monk: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and unarmed strike.

    Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.

    Pole Arms: glaive, guisarme, halberd, and ranseur.

    Spears: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, and trident.

    Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, half ling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.

    In addition, at 5th level a fighter is treated as having Weapon Focus in all weapons he is trained in for qualifying for combat feats. At 13th level, a fighter is is treated as having Greater Weapon Focus in all weapons he is trained in for qualifying for combat feats. The fighter does not gain the benefits of Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Focus, though.

    Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield.

    Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

    Changes
    Increased skill points per level from 2 + Int to 4 + Int.
    Made Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), Martial Lore, and Stealth class skills.
    Added Maneuvers, Readied Maneuvers, and Stances to class features.
    Added a new clause to Weapon Training in the class features courtesy of Dragon-Rider.
    Added overcoming DR and hardness to Weapon Training courtesy of rex1888.
    Increased number of Maneauvers known courtesy of ngilop.
    Increased number of Stances.
    Last edited by Psycho Yuffie; 2014-06-27 at 04:50 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    id lose the maneuvers. Not that theres anything wrong with them, but to me the fighter represents something players can pick up an play with when they first start the game. As such, id give them all the improved blah feats(bullrush, sunder etc and the pre reqs) over the course of a fighters normal dead levels. Maybe in groups, so they have all of them by 5. From then on id add little things they can do with those mechanics, like say for the sake of a grapple mod, fighters might ignored two sizes larger than them, or allow them to sunder limbs rather than just equipment etc.

    on the case of bigger numbers for weapons, you should change it to ignore hardness or dr. Yes there is a maneuver for that already, but on a simplicity scale players wont have to stress as much about when they use it, and its a nice boost without adding extra numbers to them. For the will save, i like it, but i feel they should just get a bonus to their will not just on fear but in general. In all honesty it takes a boatload of effort to leanr how to wield weapons easily, and you cant just be some wet wipe woose to do it well. Hell, id improve their reflex as well. An throw in a few attribute increases to the class, and quick draw.

    basically my goal would be less about doing what other classes do, and more about focusing on what a fighter represents. Its a guy, who has spent his life working really hard to kick ass with weapons. He doesnt deflect magic, he just wears it an keeps going. When the barbarian rages, the fighter ignores. A few features to make armour far more attractive would go a long way too.

    the only problem i see with all of these additions is it runs the risk of acting against exactly what i started with, since theres alot of feature bloat. So compacting it all would be the next step lol.

    Thems my two cents :D

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Needs 6+ int skills honestly. 4 is still not enough to make them useful out of combat, and Int has always been the Fighter dump stat. You chart is frighteningly like the one I was working on today for giving maneuvers to all mundanes , that said i think they could cap out a bit higher, say 10 total known.

    Also maybe give them a way around the Tax feats in their chosen method of fighting, kinda like rangers get. Combat expertise for free if you choose defensive, power attack for two-handed, Point blank shot for ranged, TWF for duo-wielding. You pick on at the beginning of your career.
    Last edited by Hurnn; 2014-02-06 at 01:46 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    The main problem you'll have with this is that Fighter's are useless outside of combat. As well as being totally outclassed inside combat. We can up numbers and give them amazeballs, wuxia powered pewpewlazor's, but they're still going to suck major {self scrub}.
    Still, I'm sure most of my suggestions will be combat orientated.

    Give them Knowledge (Nobility) or (Warfare) or whatever it is that gives them the knowledge to pick out ranks of peeps (ie Commander, Warchief, Corporal)... but maybe to not know wtf is going on with those interbreeding nobles and their silly, convoluted hierarchy system. You know he's a Baron, but just what is that next to the second, born out of wedlock son of a penniless king?
    Oooh, and Weapon Drill.
    A competence bonus equal to their level or half their level or something to a few skills like Jump, Tumble, Intimidate and some Knowledges. Or allow them to choose from their list of known Skills for more customisation.
    Give them the ability to use Strength OR Dexterity as a damage modifier when fighting.
    When they use weapons they can treat them as Magic for the purpose of overcoming DR.
    Bonuses to sunder. Non-lethal sunder? (moar lewtz!)
    I always thought their saves should be better. Is there a "half progression" for saves? Reflex and Will should be better IMO, but I'd rather them not copy a Monk in that regard.
    There was a thread started the other day about spells that shouldn't be spells. Have a look through that. Give them Ex abilities that mimic spells that could be passed of as just being a beast.
    Roll Weapon Supremacy and that line of feats into one, where they unlock the next feat every few levels.
    They can use weapons a size smaller/larger than usual without taking penalties.
    They can use Intimidate in place of Diplomacy and suffer no ill effects like you usually do when you use Intimidate. Even go so far as to adding it stuff like Appraise and Sense Motive. This dude is a mountain of muscles and war rages in his eyes, you don't want to mess with him.
    Give him extra bonuses against Death attacks and Illusions.
    Different bonuses depending on what weapons they use. Precision damage bonuses can't be blocked for ranged, sword and board users get an ability to jump in front of projectile spells and mundane projectiles, etc.

    Edit: Sorry for the rambling. At work.
    Last edited by Red Rubber Band; 2014-02-06 at 02:25 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Here's something I thought of recently while working out a Fighter character concept. Pathfinder added a ton of useful combat feats, enough that even Fighters who get a feat every level can struggle to fit in all the feats they want. Especially considering that Fighters are forced to waste a feat on Weapon Focus in order to take, the unique to Fighters, Weapon Specialization feat. They have to waste another feat on Greater Weapon Focus to take Greater Weapon Specialization. Getting +4 damage is great, but a Fighter needs to spend 4 feat slots in order to get that. That's a huge cost. In the early levels, Weapon Focus is very helpful, but its usefulness tapers off real quick as you start getting access to Magic Weapons, Magic Items and higher level buff spells from friendly casters. My idea adds to the Weapon Training ability. My additions are in bold font:

    Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

    Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.

    A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter’s Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

    For the purposes of qualifying for feats only, a Fighter is considered to have the Weapon Focus feat for all weapons he is trained in. For example, a 5th level Fighter who selected Weapon Training in Heavy Blades may take the Weapon Specialization Greatsword feat without having to take the Weapon Focus Greatsword feat as a prerequisite. When a Fighter's Weapon Training bonuses reach +3, a Fighter qualifies for feats as if he had Greater Weapon Focus feat for each weapon in that group. A Fighter does not actually gain the +1 bonus to attack rolls that the Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus feats grant unless he takes those feats. A sufficient Weapon Training (+1 for Weapon Focus and +3 for Greater Weapon Focus) would also allow a Fighter to replace a Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Focus bonus feat at a level where a Fighter is normally able to replace a bonus feat as described in the Bonus Feats ability.

    Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):
    Last edited by Dragon-Rider; 2014-02-06 at 02:28 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Spore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    What is Athletics and Martial Lore?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    I think 4 skill points per level is enough.

    provided you give them a minor boost to some skills

    for example when I re-did the NPC classes -The warrior is the 3.5 PhB Fighter with some actual class features- I gace them a minor bonus to STR and DEX based skill checks, something similar to that would be good

    Id let them do a full attack as a standard actipn anywhere from the level 7 to 10 range, after all just about every class in teh game gets that ability ( except of course the one class that has fight in the name..poor fighter

    ive the fighter a bonus again charms, fear,and compulsions as well.

    Id also steal a couple pages from the Warlord (PF) or the Marshal (3.5) and let the fighter have some ally buff abilities not ripping off the Bard though.

    A way to have the fighter inflict status conditions is needed as well, A fighte should be able to Daze, stun, fatigue, sicken, etc with his attacks as well as just doing damage.

    To add onto the above suggestion. A fighter needs more than just 1 defense to go against right now, the poor fighter only ever has to attack an opponents AC, leavign FOrtitude, Reflex, and Will saves completely alone.
    You could get around this by giving the Fighter Battle Cries, that can buff allies and hinder enemies, everyhwere from causing fear, to dazeing then to just general penalties to X actions just a thought though.

    Im kinda neutral when it come to ToB maneuvers.. but honestly You gave the fighter waay to few martial maneuvers, they should be the kings of any martial endeavor, as stated in their class fluff. SO i think doubling the maneuvers known - at minimum- is a good start

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGirl

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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    @rex1888: I think maneuvers help balance out the fighter with the spellcasters, so I'll keep them for the moment, unless someone gives me a convincing argument to remove them.

    @Hurrn: I'm hard to sell on increasing the stat points to more than 4. It seems to be the best balance. Fighters shouldn't be bards or rogues, but they should have some out-of-combat skills. 3.5 fighters were so lackluster because they got both poor skill points and not any worthy skills to put ranks into. I've already given this fighter a lot more skill points and more skills to make him useful outside of combat. Also, fighters get so many feats (20) that doing combat style feats would be pointless.

    @Red Rubber Band: I think most of your suggestions would result in a uber class and I'm really trying for that not to happen. Being able to use weapons of any size category is immensely powerful and not to mention not at all realistic. Every class should have some weaknesses. I could almost see an argument for a good reflex save, but not a will save. Also, the fighter is written to be more of a mercenary than a soldier. Sense Motive and Knowledge (nobility) as you're describing are more skills for paladins.

    @Sporeegg: Athletics was a typo and Martial Lore is a skill from The Tome of Battle.

    @ngilop: A full attack as a standard action, huh? We did that in the last thread too and it at 10th level. In play testing, though, it seemed really powerful, so I'm cautious against it. We also tried battle cries and that led to a giant mess. People were always arguing about whether or not to keep them in because they made the fighter too complicated. Also, the reason why I gave this fighter less of a pool for maneuvers is because he gets so many more class features and access to more feats than the Warblade. Plus, this fighter gets access to all Sword Disciplines, except for Devoted Spirit. Some balancing was required.
    Last edited by Psycho Yuffie; 2014-02-06 at 08:52 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Well if Battle Cries are too complicated then, forget that..

    I just myself am unable to comprehend how they are too complicated when you have spells, or for that matter martial maneuvers.

    I did war cries as feats, which are bascailly spammable lvl 1 and 2 spells ( i.e they duplicate the bles, lesser vigor, and command spells amongts other things)

    I can say that the warblade get a LOT more class features and feats than the Fighter, just taking into account the sheer number of martial maneuvers he has access to, and the weapon aptitude ability. I can see teh Warblade having more maneuvers readied, but since the fighter is supposed to be the greatest mundane combantant in PF ( again according to its own class fluff) I will just support the fighter knowing more martial maneuvers.

    Also, i guess I should ask what power/versaility level are you looking for for your Fighter so I cna be a better help in suggestions and critques. I just alwasy assume that most want to bump the fighter up to 'tier' 3 or high 'tier' 4 to begin with, so im sorry if i am throwing out suggestions that are a bit more powerful than what you are comfortable with.

    The stanard PF fighter did a nice job of succumbing to the incorrect ' FIghter's just need bigger numbers' fix, so allowing the fighter some unique abilities that are usable in and outside of combat would go great lengths to getting the poor fighter out of the ' every class in the game is better at my job than I am) rut.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGirl

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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Never said that battle cries the way you just described them are complicated. The way we ended up incorporating them into the last thread was, though. It led to trees and such and was more headache than it's worth. Maybe you have some solutions to keep battle cries simple. Originally, my battle cries were based on Charisma, which made sense to me, but people complained about MAD.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Oh gah you split them up into trees and such.. yeah that sounds complicated.

    My War Cries are pretty simple there is a couple 'base' ones (I.E. ones that do not has any pre-reqs) and like 10 or so that build off those ones or require X warcries known.

    one example would be Warcry (the one that duplicates bless) is a 'base' warcry, while battle orders (attack bonus and extra damage) requires a warcry and a minimum fighter level.

    I see nothing wrong with basing them off Cha, after all it is the force of personality of the fighter these would wokr off of, i kinda skirted the issue by making last X rounds + number of rounds = Cha mod. SO it don't hurt the fighter for not hacing a high charisma, but it a little more icing on the cake if he does have some charisma

    I say do battel cries kind alike Invoations sprinkled through the fighter levels (every 3rd or what have you) the fighter gets a new war cry. SOme of them are a bit powerful (like for instance the can daze) and other are less powerful ( replicate Bless) so of course the higher powered one require a minimum level they can be acuired. You can steal some of the 'DUH' choices from white raven and make them Battle Cries too

    Keep it simple, in regards to thing ( something I am guilty of NOT DOING in my latest Fighter project LOL)

    Why does the fighter not get Devoted Spirit? I much more readily bleive a fighter channels his own inner fire to bash an oppoennt and or maybe give him that second wind healing himself than turning itno shadowy stuff and teleproting everything or flying through the air all ablaze ( as with SHadow hand and Desert Wind)

    Armor Mastery is a good idea.. though PF did a bangup job of crazily over valuing Damage rudection. DR 5/- might be great at lvl 1-3 when people are doing maybe 20-30 dmg tops.. but at lvl 12 when you are regulary getting hit for 80 that DR 5 is pittiful, give it at an earlier level and have it scale, for example give it at 4th for DR 4/- and increase it by 2 every 4th level, so at 20th a fighter gets DR10/- while still not as good as the enrgy resistance once can get at that level, let alone outright immunity or compared to the 100+dmg you are taking its not too great.. but hey it'll do.

    y thing is ai know peopel cry about MAD stuff all the time, but the only reason why casters need 1 stat is becuase spells negate the need for anything but the stat they are based from. Other classes do not get spells so they are going to need more than just 1 stat, unless you get all wierd and then asy " a fighter's everything is based of strenght' then to me thats just dumb.I think every class should really need 2 or 3 decent ( 14+) stats, but im a very small minority here, most people think that all classes should only care about 1 stat.

    I guess the best peice of advice i cna give you is, What do YOU envision the fighter being; what roles and concepts should the fighter fill?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Yuffie View Post
    @Red Rubber Band: I think most of your suggestions would result in a uber class and I'm really trying for that not to happen. Being able to use weapons of any size category is immensely powerful and not to mention not at all realistic. Every class should have some weaknesses. I could almost see an argument for a good reflex save, but not a will save. Also, the fighter is written to be more of a mercenary than a soldier. Sense Motive and Knowledge (nobility) as you're describing are more skills for paladins.
    For ease of response can you please point out how each/most of my suggestions would result in an uber class? Even taking all these suggestions together I don't see it resulting in anything near OP.
    I never said using weapons of any size category. I said a size larger/smaller than they usually could without taking penalties. Example: Medium Fighter tries to use a Large sword. He would, generally, take a penalty. Because it is one size category higher, he doesn't. If, however, he tried to use a Huge sword, he would still take penalties.
    Even with all the suggestions added in Fighter's have one glaring weakness. They don't have access to spells. They are STILL outclassed by spells, and STILL need magic (via way of items) to be useful.
    That's why I made the suggestion of giving the player a choice of skills. "You get these skills as class skills, plus choose another 3." K(Nobility) may not be for the mercenary, but that's not the only type of Fighter character concept that can be played. The player may very well want to play a Fighter who is a career soldier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
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    Come at me scrublord I'm ripped

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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    @Red Rubber Band: I initially kept my response simple because I had just woken up. I'll address everything now, though.

    A competence bonus equal to their level or half their level or something to a few skills like Jump, Tumble, Intimidate and some Knowledges. Or allow them to choose from their list of known Skills for more customisation.

    Not sure about the extra bonus to skills, but the choice of an additional skill based on character concept is good. I like class features that make the player think about their character's past and where they think they're going because so many people tend to miss that. We'll put that idea on a solid maybe. I like it, but I want a few others to weigh in on it first.

    Give them the ability to use Strength OR Dexterity as a damage modifier when fighting.
    Call me a little bit of a realist, but I don't quite understand how dexterity can create damage. Heck, if your character is too weak, they get a negative bonus to damage to melee and ranged damage. Dexterity is more based on how agile a character is than how good they are at dealing damage. If you can explain this to me, I'll consider it.

    When they use weapons they can treat them as Magic for the purpose of overcoming DR.
    Overcoming DR has already been implemented.

    Bonuses to sunder. Non-lethal sunder? (moar lewtz!)
    It's called the Improved Sunder feat. Again, fighters get a lot of feats, so there's no reason they can't burn a feat to be better at it.

    I always thought their saves should be better. Is there a "half progression" for saves? Reflex and Will should be better IMO, but I'd rather them not copy a Monk in that regard.
    I gave a brief reaction to this, but I'll explain it more now. I can see Reflex being a good save, but there's only good and bad saves. There's nothing in the middle and fighters shouldn't be the best at will saves, except when it comes to overcoming fear. These people have spent their lives on the battlefield. It should be really hard to scare them. If anything, I could see beefing up Bravery to be +2 at every increase instead of just +1.

    There was a thread started the other day about spells that shouldn't be spells. Have a look through that. Give them Ex abilities that mimic spells that could be passed of as just being a beast.
    I already kinda did. They're called maneuvers and they're very powerful.

    Roll Weapon Supremacy and that line of feats into one, where they unlock the next feat every few levels.
    Not sure if you're talking about the 3.5 feat or the class feature in Pathfinder. If you're talking about the 3.5 feat, there's only two feats in that like. There's Melee Weapon Mastery and Melee Weapon Supremacy. Melee Weapon Mastery gives +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls with three weapon groups (slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing). It's nearly exactly what Weapon Training does, but Weapon Training breaks weapons down into smaller groups and evolves as the character increases in levels. Melee Weapon Supremacy is basically word-for-word Weapon Mastery in Pathfinder. So this has already been done by default.

    They can use weapons a size smaller/larger than usual without taking penalties.
    Why would a fighter want to use a weapon that's smaller than their size? I get the appeal of using a weapon one size category bigger, but there's a reason why that's never made it into any official book: the authors can't wrap their head around how someone could physically do it. Imagine trying to wield a tree. A bit cumbersome. It's one thing to say that a fighter has trained his whole life to wield a giant weapon and takes a reduced penalty, but no penalty? That's a hard sell.

    They can use Intimidate in place of Diplomacy and suffer no ill effects like you usually do when you use Intimidate. Even go so far as to adding it stuff like Appraise and Sense Motive. This dude is a mountain of muscles and war rages in his eyes, you don't want to mess with him.
    Intimidate can already be used for these things, so long as you're roleplaying it correctly. You can be calm and collected and insinuate a threat (diplomacy), you can make someone so frightened that they wouldn't dare rip you off (appraise) or lie to you (sense motive). Ultimately, though, you're dealing with a class that's more rough than the other classes. They're not good with words the way rogues are and don't know the proper channels the way paladins do. They know force. Thus, intimidate.

    Give him extra bonuses against Death attacks and Illusions.
    Why? Yes, I know save or die is a huge issue, but I need it explained how a fighter can do this without magical means. This is a fighter class and not a templar--I have made one of those before, though.

    Different bonuses depending on what weapons they use. Precision damage bonuses can't be blocked for ranged, sword and board users get an ability to jump in front of projectile spells and mundane projectiles, etc.
    Now we're really kicking off. Unblockable damage? Do you wish to have god mode, improved evasion, and a +10 inexplicable bonus to AC too? These last two really made me think you wanted an uber class. Also, if you want abilities to create projectiles and stuff, again... This class now has maneuvers, so that's covered.
    Last edited by Psycho Yuffie; 2014-02-07 at 06:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Can We Fix It? #3: The Fighter Redux [PF]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Yuffie View Post
    @Red Rubber Band: I initially kept my response simple because I had just woken up. I'll address everything now, though.
    Nps. Thanks for the elaborated response.

    Spoiler
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    A competence bonus equal to their level or half their level or something to a few skills like Jump, Tumble, Intimidate and some Knowledges. Or allow them to choose from their list of known Skills for more customisation.
    Not sure about the extra bonus to skills, but the choice of an additional skill based on character concept is good. I like class features that make the player think about their character's past and where they think they're going because so many people tend to miss that. We'll put that idea on a solid maybe. I like it, but I want a few others to weigh in on it first.
    It's annoying to me that these people, who are the masters of combat and train 23 hours a day, cannot jump to save their life because they can't afford to put points into it. It was mainly the physical skills I was thinking about when suggesting it, but appropriate Knowledges also danced in as an option.

    Give them the ability to use Strength OR Dexterity as a damage modifier when fighting.
    Call me a little bit of a realist, but I don't quite understand how dexterity can create damage. Heck, if your character is too weak, they get a negative bonus to damage to melee and ranged damage. Dexterity is more based on how agile a character is than how good they are at dealing damage. If you can explain this to me, I'll consider it.
    It's not about hitting harder, but hitting more precisely. You stab someone in the stomach, they'll die. But you stab someone in the lung or heart and it's over much, much quicker. You hack into someone's leg, ouch. But slice a main artery and they're in a lot of trouble.
    That's how I always saw the Weapon Finesse feat.
    It could even be extended to using STR/DEX as a "to hit" modifier as well. Maybe using both... that might be going a little overboard though.

    When they use weapons they can treat them as Magic for the purpose of overcoming DR.
    Overcoming DR has already been implemented.
    What you've implemented and what I've suggested are different. Your DR ability allows them to ignore X amount of any DR. My suggestion allows them to treat their weapons as magical for the purpose of overcoming DR. It doesn't have an X amount of DR limit, but, unless it's upgraded, only works for DR/magic (assuming I understand the DR terminology).

    Bonuses to sunder. Non-lethal sunder? (moar lewtz!)
    It's called the Improved Sunder feat. Again, fighters get a lot of feats, so there's no reason they can't burn a feat to be better at it.
    The non-lethal sunder was a thought of the Fighter having cake and letting him eat it too. He non-lethally sunders the opponents armour. Rather than being destroyed it, for want of a better term, falls off as the Fighter has cut the straps and what not that hold it together. So maybe more like a Disarm: Armour.
    Very rough idea, and would have to be worked out in a lot more detail as there is the ability to (ab)use it on every single person you meet.

    I always thought their saves should be better. Is there a "half progression" for saves? Reflex and Will should be better IMO, but I'd rather them not copy a Monk in that regard.
    I gave a brief reaction to this, but I'll explain it more now. I can see Reflex being a good save, but there's only good and bad saves. There's nothing in the middle and fighters shouldn't be the best at will saves, except when it comes to overcoming fear. These people have spent their lives on the battlefield. It should be really hard to scare them. If anything, I could see beefing up Bravery to be +2 at every increase instead of just +1.
    Fear effects, definitely. I'd be happy to settle with that. I can see arguments for and against Reflex. Using the "mercenary for hire" view of Fighter doesn't really inspire thoughts of nimbleness mixed with brawn.

    There was a thread started the other day about spells that shouldn't be spells. Have a look through that. Give them Ex abilities that mimic spells that could be passed of as just being a beast.
    I already kinda did. They're called maneuvers and they're very powerful.
    Yes, they are powerful. But they're all combat based. This thread was looking at spells that, really, have no place in spell land. A majority of the spells listed were "utility" spells and lower level, I believe. The thread in question. Take a look and let me know what you think.

    Roll Weapon Supremacy and that line of feats into one, where they unlock the next feat every few levels.
    Not sure if you're talking about the 3.5 feat or the class feature in Pathfinder. If you're talking about the 3.5 feat, there's only two feats in that like. There's Melee Weapon Mastery and Melee Weapon Supremacy. Melee Weapon Mastery gives +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls with three weapon groups (slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing). It's nearly exactly what Weapon Training does, but Weapon Training breaks weapons down into smaller groups and evolves as the character increases in levels. Melee Weapon Supremacy is basically word-for-word Weapon Mastery in Pathfinder. So this has already been done by default.
    Sorry, my mistake. I was looking at 3.5 when I wrote that.

    They can use weapons a size smaller/larger than usual without taking penalties.
    Why would a fighter want to use a weapon that's smaller than their size? I get the appeal of using a weapon one size category bigger, but there's a reason why that's never made it into any official book: the authors can't wrap their head around how someone could physically do it. Imagine trying to wield a tree. A bit cumbersome. It's one thing to say that a fighter has trained his whole life to wield a giant weapon and takes a reduced penalty, but no penalty? That's a hard sell.
    It's not necessarily about wanting to. There is such a thing as disarm, or being taken off guard. As to not making it into anything official... this is from 3.5, but I'm presently cut off from a majority of sites that have this stuff laid out so cannot check for PF.
    Spoiler
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    From the SRD
    Inappropriately Sized Weapons
    A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

    The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

    So what you're essentially doing is taking away the -2 penalty. Therefore, in the case of wielding a 1H Large weapon, rather than having to wield it at -2 and with 2 hands, the Fighter only has to use 2 hands and negates the -2 penalty.

    They can use Intimidate in place of Diplomacy and suffer no ill effects like you usually do when you use Intimidate. Even go so far as to adding it stuff like Appraise and Sense Motive. This dude is a mountain of muscles and war rages in his eyes, you don't want to mess with him.
    Intimidate can already be used for these things, so long as you're roleplaying it correctly. You can be calm and collected and insinuate a threat (diplomacy), you can make someone so frightened that they wouldn't dare rip you off (appraise) or lie to you (sense motive). Ultimately, though, you're dealing with a class that's more rough than the other classes. They're not good with words the way rogues are and don't know the proper channels the way paladins do. They know force. Thus, intimidate.
    But Intimidate comes with the negative effect of that person feeling unfriendly or hostile towards you afterwards. As to roleplaying it correctly... that's great. You can roleplay the **** out of it and you'll still have a +0 to Sense Motive because you have no skill points and no positive Wisdom modifier. Or a -2 to Diplomacy because, once again, no skill points but this time a nice dump stat gives you a negative modifier.

    Give him extra bonuses against Death attacks and Illusions.
    Why? Yes, I know save or die is a huge issue, but I need it explained how a fighter can do this without magical means. This is a fighter class and not a templar--I have made one of those before, though.
    This was a follow on from the earlier thought of giving them better saves. Not sure why I said Illusions. Death attacks is kinda meh now. I can't remember my reasoning behind this though. So I'll drop it until such time as I do.

    Different bonuses depending on what weapons they use. Precision damage bonuses can't be blocked for ranged, sword and board users get an ability to jump in front of projectile spells and mundane projectiles, etc.
    Now we're really kicking off. Unblockable damage? Do you wish to have god mode, improved evasion, and a +10 inexplicable bonus to AC too? These last two really made me think you wanted an uber class. Also, if you want abilities to create projectiles and stuff, again... This class now has maneuvers, so that's covered.
    Ok, so we come to the one point that made you think I wanted an uber class. And it was because I had written it poorly and it was read incorrectly.
    Unblockable damage: You want to make an Archer? Excellent, let me point out a low level spell which makes your whole character useless. Protection from Arrows was what I had in mind when typing that. You mentioned different fighting styles akin to the Rangers mastery. Good. Give them something that gets around Protection from Arrows if they so choose to go with a bow. Instead of their usual iterative attacks they can have one that gets through Protection from Arrows. Hence, unblockable. Can they still mess up when coming across AC? Sure. It's a hell of a lot less OP than your usual save or die spell.
    The reason for being written so poorly is that I had on my mind the Skirmish and Sneak Attack abilities that get shafted so easily. The ability for precision damage like that to not be blocked as easily is an attractive idea for me. If the Fighters were to have their own way to get precision damage like the aforementioned abilities, then I'd hate to see it go down the same road.
    Abilities to create projectiles and stuff: That is not what I said. I said the ability for sword and board users to jump in front of projectiles. (Very rough) Example: As an immediate action you can move up to 10ft to block an incoming projectile (ie arrow) that is aimed at another person/object/thing. Until your next turn you have -2 AC and a -1 to Reflex saves. This can only be used if, once you've moved up to 10ft, the square you end in breaks line of sight between the launcher of the projectile and the target.


    Just keep in mind that I don't want every single thing added. These are just suggestions for ways that can make the Fighter better and should be considered individually of one another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    You could also go on an adventure for the magical strap-on, if you really want to make an adventure out of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Wizard View Post
    Come at me scrublord I'm ripped

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