Hmmm... Possible alternate theory as to what redcloak is hiding?

[druid91]

Thus far, the most prominent theory as to why redcloak silenced the hobgoblin spy, is that he is intending to hide the phylactory.

Personally it seemed like it, but I couldn't figure out what he gained by hiding the phylactory.

It's not like he wasn't always the one who carried it anyway.

Then I got to thinking... That is an awful lot of called creatures...

And they required payment, so that's either planar ally, or gate used.

So I got to adding it up.

He has at least 7 bearded devils

2 horned devils

one (At least) Gargantuan Elemental

and between 1-to-7 of the other large devils who ripped the paladin in two.

Now.

That is 6 HD per bearded devil.

15 per horned.

And 16 (At least) for the elemental.

And an undetermined amount for the mystery devil.

So.

Lesser planar ally can summon 1 creature of up to 6 HD. As a level 4 spell.

Planar Ally can summon one or two creatures of up to 12 HD. As a level 6 spell.

Now these first two can handily account for the bearded devils, and maybe even our mystery devil. But what about the rest?

Greater planar ally is up to three creatures of no more than 18 HD apiece. for an 8th level spell.

So that's three castings of greater planar ally, and then earthquake. Another 8th level spell. That means he is at least 19th level. Quite probably more if our mystery devil happens to have more than 12 HD. Considering it was pretty big, and tore a paladin in two like wet tissue, it's not unreasonable to assume he is 20th level or greater.

Perhaps the secret he was trying to keep hidden is he is actually much more powerful than he has been letting on.

I mean without explicitly having him use epic magic this is a very strong hint that "lowly little redcloak" Isn't quite as lowly as we thought, when compared to Xykon. Perhaps not equally powerful. But not entirely out of the same ball-park either.

[SpaceBadger]

Except that Redcloak's comment, "Nothing quite like the feel of a new spell level" suggests that this is, in fact, a new spell level he has just gained, so he would not be epic. You may be right, however, that he is not eager to let Xykon know that he has gone up a level, keeping the new 9th level spells as a secret.

[NerfTW]

No, he wanted to hide the phylactery so that Xykon would be forced to stay longer until Gobbotopia was well established. That is all.

Remember that he has NO idea that there is anyone else who knows about the gates or is actively working against him. The Order was a random group of adventurers in one dungeon. He hasn't seen any other members. Tsukiko had no way of identifying Belkar and Haley as members, so she couldn't have alerted anyone to anything other than two high level characters in the resistance.

At best there's O'chul, but that would make him want to stay put, anticipating a reaction from the elves.

The Order of the Stick are still complete unknowns in his plan. They've only actually met him once, with Roy and V meeting Xykon twice, both in situations that looked like they were hired mercs/soldiers.

[druid91]

No, he wanted to hide the phylactery so that Xykon would be forced to stay longer until Gobbotopia was well established. That is all.

Remember that he has NO idea that there is anyone else who knows about the gates or is actively working against him. The Order was a random group of adventurers in one dungeon. He hasn't seen any other members. Tsukiko had no way of identifying Belkar and Haley as members, so she couldn't have alerted anyone to anything other than two high level characters in the resistance.

At best there's O'chul, but that would make him want to stay put, anticipating a reaction from the elves.

The Order of the Stick are still complete unknowns in his plan. They've only actually met him once, with Roy and V meeting Xykon twice, both in situations that looked like they were hired mercs/soldiers.

There are a few issues with that idea.

Foremost among them is the idea that redcloak and Xykons presence somehow strengthen Gobbotopia.

They don't. Xykon is an outright liability to Gobbotopian stability, there is no way in hell he is letting the goblins slack off on looking for his phylactory so they can build up their empire. With that being the case. His presence, and by extension redcloaks presence is actually detrimental to the cause of gobbotopia becoming established. He weakens it with each day the search goes on.

Secondly, Gobbotopia is not that important. It's especially miniscule on the importance scale when compared to The Plan. Which hiding the phylactory puts in danger of failing immensely.

Then there is the possible fallout from Xykon. Even if my theory is correct, Xykon can and would obliterate gobbotopia just to mess with redcloak.

It all adds up for that being a really, really bad idea if that is redcloaks plan.

As redcloak is one of the few members of Team evil with long-term planning skills... I wouldn't expect him to go through with it.

Especially with the recent revelation that the "We found it!" Message got through to everyone else.

In other words. Great risks for nonexistant rewards.

[mrmcfatty]

i agree that having xykon there is a liability, and most likely he is just now reaching level 17 (i believe this to be true at least)

but as i like a spirited debate, so i can see some points that druid is making. what if redcloak really is a higher level than he lets on, maybe he meant the feeling of a new spell level as in, this is the first time he has ever been able to cast one without fear of getting caught? If red cloak is a high enough level to possibly challenge X, with help and preparation of course, then Xykon would see him as a possible threat since he may be able to beat him and decides to take him out and give the cloak to some other goblin.

If X thinks that he is only level 15 or such he is too low of a level to really pose any such threat. But if the day comes that the two face off and all the sudden RC has 9th or even higher level spell slots it might take him by surprise, at least enough of one to give RC an advantage.

I am not saying any of this is true, but what better way to hide then to show yourself as strong enough to be useful but weak enough to not matter.

[Ingus]

I think that RC plot is way convoluted and distorted to be figured out so easily.

Sheesh, I still guess where the teevo controller is...

[Kish]

So that's three castings of greater planar ally, and then earthquake. Another 8th level spell. That means he is at least 19th level.

Your math's off because you're ignoring domain spells, bonus spell slots from ability scores, Gate, and any means of preparing Greater Planar Ally except "in an eighth-level spell slot."
Assuming he cast three greater planar ally spells and the Earthquake from eighth-level spell slots, that would only require him to be level 18--Earthquake being a Destruction domain spell--or level 17 with a Wisdom of at least 26. I would be very surprised if Redcloak's Wisdom is lower than 26. It's also entirely possible that one of them is an Extended Greater Planar Ally prepared in his non-domain ninth-level spell slot (Implosion also being a Destruction domain spell), or a Gate.

"Redcloak is secretly eighteenth level" is, by my reckoning, fifth most likely on the list of possible explanations for what we've seen. "Redcloak is secretly nineteenth level" isn't on the list at all.

[Chess Tyrant]

Personally, I figure the biggest thing he's hiding is the phylactery, because Xykon would hide it/give it to Tsukiko if he got it back. We know he was pissed at Redcloak for letting it be lost in the first place; he's proven that he can't keep it safe, so there's no good reason for Xykon to let him keep it.

It's safe to assume there'll be a battle between Xykon and Redcloak at some point; Redcloak needs to know where the phylactery is if he's going to come out the winner. Concealing the fact that he has 9th level spells is a good secondary motivation, though.

[druid91]

Your math's off because you're ignoring domain spells, bonus spell slots from ability scores, Gate, and any means of preparing Greater Planar Ally except "in an eighth-level spell slot."
Assuming he cast three greater planar ally spells and the Earthquake from eighth-level spell slots, that would only require him to be level 18--Earthquake being a Destruction domain spell--or level 17 with a Wisdom of at least 26. I would be very surprised if Redcloak's Wisdom is lower than 26. It's also entirely possible that one of them is an Extended Greater Planar Ally prepared in his non-domain ninth-level spell slot (Implosion also being a Destruction domain spell), or a Gate.

"Redcloak is secretly eighteenth level" is, by my reckoning, fifth most likely on the list of possible explanations for what we've seen. "Redcloak is secretly nineteenth level" isn't on the list at all.

Actually I realized that it was only a requirement of 18th level. But when I tried to correct it, GITP died on me last night... and I just decided to go to sleep.

As for gate... Are you really gonna go with something as small-fry as what he summoned if he used gate?

I doubt it. Summoning by gate costs 1000xp.

Even so, you are ignoring the possibility that there are more summoned creatures than shown.

Also you are ignoring the fourth large creature.

There are seven of those tunnels. The resistance could have run down any except the one the resistance came in through. In all likelyhood there was a monster at each of the exits.

However that's not for certain. So I'm not insisting on it.

[ORione]

There are seven of those tunnels. The resistance could have run down any except the one the resistance came in through. In all likelyhood there was a monster at each of the exits.

The hobgoblin spy lead that resistance person down the tunnel.

[Lawyergoblin]

The hobgoblin spy lead that resistance person down the tunnel.

Yeah, but what if the Resistance ran with the Phylactery down any of the other tunnels? We already know how intelligent RC is, as well as how much forethought he puts into everything. Is it really that likely that he would rely on whoever is carrying the Phylactery, in the midst of quite a large battle, to follow the Traitor? They might have just run down whatever tunnel the chose on the spot! It seems unnecessarily risky to me, something he wouldn't do...

[Rorrik]

Not feeling up to the math right now, but I think it is plausible that red cloak is higher level than we expect, maybe even high enough to stand a good chance against Xykon. It may have been possible for him to pull off all of those spells seen in the encounter, but he's always been one to pull some of his punches and despite the alarming show of force, it seems likely to me that he was still holding something back. He was extremely casual through the whole ordeal, not exerting himself like someone who is giving it all they've got. He was using even more power than normal and yet seemed more in his element. Remember when he was attacked by O'chul, cowering and using disintegrate while his eye got stabbed out. That wasn't what we saw in the cave. We saw a confident, leisurely Red Cloak, just like with Tsukiko. He's definitely putting on an act around Xykon, the question is how much power is he hiding?

[Alienist]

Not feeling up to the math right now, but I think it is plausible that red cloak is higher level than we expect

Occam's Razor suggests it is easier to believe that he has in fact just ticked over to 9th level spells.

[Rorrik]

Occam's Razor suggests it is easier to believe that he has in fact just ticked over to 9th level spells.

True, from the mathematical perspective. But others have indicated that the math could (albeit questionably) indicate higher levels. Based on information we can gather from RC's change of attitude and the act he's been putting on, there seems to be supporting evidence for the new theory. Unless he has some other reason to act weak most of the time.

Edit: I've been reviewing some of the strips and thought this was interesting. In this strip red cloak knows very well that V is spliced with two very powerful spell casters, he may have even noticed epic level spells, and yet he is surprised when his caster level can't overcome V's. If this comes as a surprise, then he may well be more powerful than we give him credit for.

[BlackHumor]

It never says he's surprised. It says he tries it and it doesn't work.

And besides, Dispel Magic works on a check. For a level 16 caster (as Redcloak presumably would've been at the time) to fail a Greater Dispel every time, the caster level of the opponent would have to be at least 25, not just epic.

So, he tried to dispel a spell he knows was cast by an epic level caster on the expectation that he can, and is annoyed that whichever of the souls cast it is not only epic, they're above the level at which he auto-fails the check. Not so weird, is it?

[Alagaesian]

I think a better explanation for this is that he is hiding the phylactery, at least for a little while. He'll have to show he found it eventually in order to leave Gobbotopia and continue with the plan, however.

Note the dead goblin from his study. The way Redcloak talked about him hints that he his more than just a janitor. This especially becomes apparent when you realize that the goblin is wearing a smithing apron. My personal theory is that the smith is going to alter the phylactery to look like the back-up holy symbol, and make the holy symbol look like the phylactery. Now, when Xykon tries to take the phylactery for safe keeping, he'll force RC to use his back-up holy symbol from now on...you get the picture.

I can even imagine how the goblin got the keys to RC's office.
"Yes, Supreme Leader?"
"No time to talk. Meet me in my private study as soon as you can. Here's the keys to get past the wards. Come alone, bring your tools, and don't tell anyone else about this. Understand?"
"Yes, Supreme Leader."

[ORione]

Yeah, but what if the Resistance ran with the Phylactery down any of the other tunnels? We already know how intelligent RC is, as well as how much forethought he puts into everything. Is it really that likely that he would rely on whoever is carrying the Phylactery, in the midst of quite a large battle, to follow the Traitor? They might have just run down whatever tunnel the chose on the spot! It seems unnecessarily risky to me, something he wouldn't do...

You're right, that does sound like something Redcloak would do.

[Gift Jeraff]

Many fiends can teleport at will and have telepathy, so there really only had to be 1 devil telepathically linked to the spy, and the spy just had to stick next to the phylactery holder.