Star Wars: Non Force Users and the Dark and Light Sides

[Sotharsyl]

Hello, and welcome SW buffs I have a question about the Force and it's interaction with non Jedi and non Sith and I'm hoping you can help answer my question, if you so chose I'll accept any cannon answer from a scene in the movies to the most obscure EU material you know of.

The question is can one who is not attuned to the Force but who acts as how one might expect a Jedi or Sith to act be sensed as "aligned" to one side of the Force.

Now doubtlessly force adepts can sense emotions and have a nice progression from fear to ... but let's say a Jedi or Sith if you think it counts has entered a dinner and sits down at the counter.

Now there's a patron who is minding his own business eating a bit bored but safe can the Jedi use his mastery of the Force determine if the man is:

• a war criminal on the run?
• a serial killer?
• a weapons trafficker?
• a man who donates all his money and time to orphans?
• or some other action which is aligned with one Side or the other?

[Tengu_temp]

No, for two reasons:
1. Force users can only detect other Force users. In DND terms, it's Detect Magic, not Detect Alignment.
2. Light side requires you to reject your basic emotions instead of accepting that they're an integral part of you, dark side requires you to act like a spoiled, selfish brat all the time. Most people do neither, even if they are clearly good or evil.

[Sotharsyl]

No, for two reasons:
1. Force users can only detect other Force users. In DND terms, it's Detect Magic, not Detect Alignment.
2. Light side requires you to reject your basic emotions instead of accepting that they're an integral part of you, dark side requires you to act like a spoiled, selfish brat all the time. Most people do neither, even if they are clearly good or evil.

Ah so they officially only detect other Force Users, well that answers my question by the way was this stated in the RPG?

[Nerd-o-rama]

The first thing I would like to point out is that, despite the use of the term in some game mechanics, there is no such thing as "The Light Side of the Force". There is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force. They are not equal and opposite cosmic forces, one is simply a different way of using the other. Anything that states otherwise is contrary to what's established in the films.

That said, what makes the Dark Side of the Force the Dark Side seems to be less "evil" and more "using the Force or otherwise acting based on selfish emotions". Anger, fear, hatred, even monogamous love (taken too far) are selfish reactions. If someone using the Force lets those emotions guide their actions, they are said to be using the Dark Side. Someone (or something, or somewhere) heavy and thick with that kind of emotion would be obvious to a Force Sensitive in one way or another, because sensing others' emotions is a basic part of sensing the Force. Having a strong presence in the Force (i.e. being a Jedi) would "amplify" those feelings to other Force Sensitives - they'd be feeling the same emotions over a stronger connection.

By contrast, not using the Dark Side seems to mean "using the Force or otherwise acting based on reason or selfless emotions - for the 'good' of the Galaxy as a whole, rather than yourself". You can't really sense someone being rational, exactly - although I suppose a Force Sensitive focusing their senses on someone could notice their lack of emotion, or drive to help others, or the like.


To answer the original question, a skilled Jedi or Sith can sense others' thoughts if they focus and train their connection to the Force. That can give them the answer to any of the questions in the OP, especially if that person is not a trained Force-user and doesn't know how to think around a Jedi or Sith's senses. If the Jedi can't pick thoughts out of the person's head (for example, if he's not thinking about them on a level the Jedi can sense), the Jedi could still read his emotional state and determine whether he's experienced or experiencing strong enough emotions to leave a mark on his presence in the Force. Again, assuming the "target" doesn't know how to obscure a Force User's senses.

The Jedi or Sith, however, can not simply detect if the person is cosmically good or cosmically evil in some binary sense. As black and white as Star Wars is, it still doesn't work that way.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Jedi or Sith, however, can not simply detect if the person is cosmically good or cosmically evil in some binary sense. As black and white as Star Wars is, it still doesn't work that way.

Indeed.
Even when certain computer games go out of their way to suggest otherwise.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I like everything in KotOR except the goddamn alignment meter. Combined with Bioware's mastery of subtle and nuanced dialog choices, it just makes things awkward as hell.

[Philistine]

That's a very Prequel-era point of view, and contradicts the OT. In the OT, the Dark Side was "Fear. Anger. Aggression," not "all emotion." Obi-wan explicitly told Luke that his feelings, on realizing Leia was his long-lost sister, did him credit. But the biggest block of all (we know Obi-wan isn't always reliable) is the redemption of Darth Vader.

Word of God has it that Vader was absolved of his decades of brutal murder, torture, tyranny and oppression in that one moment when he decided to kill his boss to save his son. But in the PT-era view of the Force, that was a Dark Side act - it was, after all, driven by powerful emotion and personal attachment, which are supposed to be harbingers of teh baddz. Personally, I think said redemption was problematic enough already before the PT retconned the rules to cast the emotions that spurred it as the Dark Side.

ETA:
If that had been the belief of the Jedi Order in the Prequel era, though, that would explain why Luke was able to do what no Jedi of that day could manage - including "Chosen One" Anakin. Luke grew up as regular folks and learned to accept and deal with his feelings, giving him a better foundation to withstand their highs and lows than the emotion-denying PT Order. But it still means the Prequel-era view is fundamentally wrong about the nature of the Force.

[hamishspence]

In the RotJ novelization, Luke's able to sense that the Rancor is not evil, just dumb, mistreated, and lashing out at everything around it.

That might qualify as "sensing the presence or absence of evil in a non-Force User."

In the Zahn book Allegiance, set 6 months after the Battle of Yavin, Luke uses this a few times.

[Gnoman]

That's primarily a sensing of thoughts. He was able to determine the emotional motivation behind the rancor's actions.

[Nerd-o-rama]

But it still means the Prequel-era view is fundamentally wrong about the nature of the Force.

Well, that view did lead directly to 99% of the Jedi Order and all of its influence being purged from the face of the galaxy. Empirical evidence of results, if nothing else, indicates there was a flaw in this worldview.

[Sotharsyl]

In the RotJ novelization, Luke's able to sense that the Rancor is not evil, just dumb, mistreated, and lashing out at everything around it.

That might qualify as "sensing the presence or absence of evil in a non-Force User."

In the Zahn book Allegiance, set 6 months after the Battle of Yavin, Luke uses this a few times.

Ok so in the end Jedi have so many Force enhanced or derived senses that that they could, at least the powerful ones, sense evil,thank you for the references.

[KingofMadCows]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mokhjML3C0

[Rawhide]

The first thing I would like to point out is that, despite the use of the term in some game mechanics, there is no such thing as "The Light Side of the Force". There is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force. They are not equal and opposite cosmic forces, one is simply a different way of using the other. Anything that states otherwise is contrary to what's established in the films.

The Expanded Universe disagrees with you, specifically the animated The Clone Wars. In there they go to a place where the force is stronger than anywhere else. In that place sits three guardians, a daughter aligned with pure light side, a son aligned with pure dark side, and a father keeping everything in balance. Spoilers about the episode below.

Spoiler

Show

Anakin is asked to take the place of the father, who is dying, and thus restore balance to the force as the chosen one. Given that this takes place before Episode 3, you can guess his choice.

[Cespenar]

The Expanded Universe disagrees with you, specifically the animated The Clone Wars. In there they go to a place where the force is stronger than anywhere else. In that place sits three guardians, a daughter aligned with pure light side, a son aligned with pure dark side, and a father keeping everything in balance. Spoilers about the episode below.

Spoiler

Show

Anakin is asked to take the place of the father, who is dying, and thus restore balance to the force as the chosen one. Given that this takes place before Episode 3, you can guess his choice.

The same Clone Wars where Mace Windu has DBZ-like levels of power?

[The Glyphstone]

Well, that view did lead directly to 99% of the Jedi Order and all of its influence being purged from the face of the galaxy. Empirical evidence of results, if nothing else, indicates there was a flaw in this worldview.

Spoiler

Show

Well, that view did lead directly to 99% of the Jedi Order and all of its influence being purged from the face of the galaxy. Empirical evidence of results, if nothing else, indicates there was a flaw in this worldview.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Expanded Universe disagrees with you, specifically the animated The Clone Wars. In there they go to a place where the force is stronger than anywhere else. In that place sits three guardians, a daughter aligned with pure light side, a son aligned with pure dark side, and a father keeping everything in balance. Spoilers about the episode below.

Spoiler

Show

Anakin is asked to take the place of the father, who is dying, and thus restore balance to the force as the chosen one. Given that this takes place before Episode 3, you can guess his choice.

There is a reason Star Wars has levels of canon. I've mentioned it before, and it's in someone's signature. This flatly contradicts the movies (original trilogy and prequel trilogy), so it officially doesn't count.

Also I don't know which Clone Wars this was, but the one I tried watching was terrible.

[Rawhide]

There is a reason Star Wars has levels of canon. I've mentioned it before, and it's in someone's signature. This flatly contradicts the movies (original trilogy and prequel trilogy), so it officially doesn't count.

Also I don't know which Clone Wars this was, but the one I tried watching was terrible.

"The Clone Wars", not "Clone Wars". The 3D CGI one.

And I'm well aware of the levels of canon. However, the original poster specified "to the most obscure EU material you know of" (and this, while not original trilogy canon, is far from obscure - the series is tightly overseen by George Lucas himself).

[Nerd-o-rama]

But if the EU contradicts things that aren't EU, it still doesn't count, or at the very least - since nitpicking about canon is something I'm loathe to do - it's an interpretation of the Force that vastly differs from what was originally established.

[Rawhide]

But if the EU contradicts things that aren't EU, it still doesn't count, or at the very least - since nitpicking about canon is something I'm loathe to do - it's an interpretation of the Force that vastly differs from what was originally established.

I'm not so sure it "vastly differs". It has been a long time since I've watched the original three movies but from memory, while it was never referred to by name, the light side of the force was heavily implied.

It's like when you talk about being lucky. You're talking about good luck, not bad luck, despite the fact that luck technically means both. The Jedi simply mentioned "The Force" because it was simplier and, to them, ment the light side. They referred to the dark side only when they needed to qualify a specific side.

[Sotharsyl]

"The Clone Wars", not "Clone Wars". The 3D CGI one.

And I'm well aware of the levels of canon. However, the original poster specified "to the most obscure EU material you know of" (and this, while not original trilogy canon, is far from obscure - the series is tightly overseen by George Lucas himself).

And as a personal preference if there are 2 viewpoints which if we take only the movies as canon are debatable, but in the EU there is something which unambiguously support one of the view points from the movies I am going to side with the "implied movie +confirmed EU" over "implied movie".

[Devonix]

Hello, and welcome SW buffs I have a question about the Force and it's interaction with non Jedi and non Sith and I'm hoping you can help answer my question, if you so chose I'll accept any cannon answer from a scene in the movies to the most obscure EU material you know of.

The question is can one who is not attuned to the Force but who acts as how one might expect a Jedi or Sith to act be sensed as "aligned" to one side of the Force.

Now doubtlessly force adepts can sense emotions and have a nice progression from fear to ... but let's say a Jedi or Sith if you think it counts has entered a dinner and sits down at the counter.

Now there's a patron who is minding his own business eating a bit bored but safe can the Jedi use his mastery of the Force determine if the man is:

• a war criminal on the run?
• a serial killer?
• a weapons trafficker?
• a man who donates all his money and time to orphans?
• or some other action which is aligned with one Side or the other?

Yes Jedi and Sith can sense the sensations and instincts of all sentient life. They can tell if some people are likely waiting in ambush by feeling their heightened emotions or the danger ect.

They can't tell a person's background but can feel that a person is someone who is self sacrificing or rutheless.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm not so sure it "vastly differs". It has been a long time since I've watched the original three movies but from memory, while it was never referred to by name, the light side of the force was heavily implied.

It's like when you talk about being lucky. You're talking about good luck, not bad luck, despite the fact that luck technically means both. The Jedi simply mentioned "The Force" because it was simplier and, to them, ment the light side. They referred to the dark side only when they needed to qualify a specific side.

I mainly started going with the lack of dualism here to make the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance to the Force at least make sense as something the Jedi would want to pursue. If there's two dualistic sides and the "Light Side" is reigning whole high hog over the Dark Side at the time, why in the hell do the Light Side patriarchs want to bring "balance" to the Force? That would make no sense, or at least it would make no sense for them not to expect to get killed. This only makes sense if there's "balance" and the distortion of balance caused by the Dark Side.

Of course, Anakin brought balance by killing almost literally every trained Force User at the time anyway and forcing his son to start the whole Jedi tradition over from scratch, but that's dramatic irony for you.


Really, though, all we have to go on is the interpretations of Jedi within the story, most of whom (particularly in the prequel trilogy) are shown to be at the very least out of touch with both social and physical reality; a sedentary bunch of old men, for the most part. The Force is an ineffable concept that gets interpreted and explained in different ways even between a master (Qui-Gon) and his student (Obi-Wan) based on their different experiences of it. All I can really get for sure is that selfish emotions are the Dark Side and things that aren't the Dark Side tend to be selfless or self-eliminating: recognizing oneself as part of the universe more than one's own transient wants.

[Xondoure]

No, for two reasons:
1. Force users can only detect other Force users. In DND terms, it's Detect Magic, not Detect Alignment.
2. Light side requires you to reject your basic emotions instead of accepting that they're an integral part of you, dark side requires you to act like a spoiled, selfish brat all the time. Most people do neither, even if they are clearly good or evil.

This is not entirely correct for a few reasons, most already mentioned. There is no light side, and the whole restricted from attachment is very PT and ultimately what destroyed them.

See the Jedi Order had become so obsessed with avoiding the temptation of the dark side they had cut themselves off. Forgetting that the first step along the path to the dark side is fear, including fear of the dark side. Hence the rather warped version we see in the prequel trilogy that managed to turn Anakin against them simply because they feared he might.

Someone who has true balance in the force accepts their emotions, and has control over them. They are able to act with the universe rather than manipulating it for their own selfish desires, but in order to act with it they must also be a part of it, and truly understand it.

Just my two credits.

[KingofMadCows]

If you go by certain interpretations, there is also the element of peace vs. conflict in the Force, and there has to be a balance between the two.

Peace brings stability and harmony but it can also lead to stagnation and decay.

Conflict often leads to depravity and unnecessary cruelty but much can be learned from struggle and competition.

By the time of the Star Wars movies, the Republic and the Jedi have remained static for thousands of years. Through that time, they have been slowly losing their way.

The spirit of cooperation and compromise that had been the foundation of the Republic had given way to selfishness and corruption. Whereas once the Republic existed so that all member worlds could benefit from the alliance, individual worlds were now much more concerned with their own well being at the expense of other worlds. The worlds of the Republic were willing to exploit each other but were not willing to help or defend each other. Well, at least that's what the prequels were supposed to show. Instead we get some pointless crap about a trade dispute and a separatist movement with no clear goals.

[McStabbington]

If you go by certain interpretations, there is also the element of peace vs. conflict in the Force, and there has to be a balance between the two.

Peace brings stability and harmony but it can also lead to stagnation and decay.

Conflict often leads to depravity and unnecessary cruelty but much can be learned from struggle and competition.

By the time of the Star Wars movies, the Republic and the Jedi have remained static for thousands of years. Through that time, they have been slowly losing their way.

The spirit of cooperation and compromise that had been the foundation of the Republic had given way to selfishness and corruption. Whereas once the Republic existed so that all member worlds could benefit from the alliance, individual worlds were now much more concerned with their own well being at the expense of other worlds. The worlds of the Republic were willing to exploit each other but were not willing to help or defend each other. Well, at least that's what the prequels were supposed to show. Instead we get some pointless crap about a trade dispute and a separatist movement with no clear goals.

I disagree strongly, although it's important to note that I disagree for reasons of preference rather than because you are, strictly speaking, not drawing from the canon. Put simply, when answering the simple question "What is the Force", Lucas is all over the map. Sometimes it's a mystical power. Sometimes it's a physical force like gravity or electromagnetism. And sometimes it's an infection. Because of that, Lucas never gives a clear conception about what "balancing" this Force might entail. I suspect that Lucas himself doesn't know or care, and simply fudges whenever he needs the story to work one way or another.

That being said, let me explain one view, consistent with some of the canon (particularly the original trilogy), that I think is preferable to the one you just laid out. You see, our culture draws a great deal of emphasis in how it thinks from our religious heritage. Just like Augustine or Aquinas, we tend to think of good and bad in binary terms: you either showed the virtue of determination or the vice of sloth, the virtue of temperance or the vice of gluttony, etc. Even the meanings of our words have changed over the centures to reflect this fact: the modern word temperance, for instance, derives from the Latin temperantia, which means "self-control" and signified the ability to moderate one's intake of wine and food. We however use it to mean complete denial of one's intake of seemingly sinful food and drink: the Women's Christian Temperance Society of the 1800's, for instance, was a band of radicals who attacked saloons and sought the absolute abolition of alcohol.

But the very fact that the word has changed its meaning suggests that binary thinking is not the only way of thinking available. And if you look at Roman stoicism or Aristotelian ethics, you see that the Latin conception in fact perfectly reflected their conception of virtue: virtue in their thought was not acting to deny some vicious impulse perfectly, but rather to act habitually in such a way that you avoided both competing vices on a spectrum of possible actions.

No doubt that makes little or no sense, so I'll provide an example. Consider the virtue of courage: in our thinking, courage is usually seen as the binary opposite and absence of cowardice when faced with a fearful situation. But in the Greek thinking, there are actually two vices that one needs to consider. If one always runs from a fearful situation no matter the circumstance, that's displaying the vicious action of cowardice, the Greeks would agree. But Aristotlian ethics also points our, quite sensibly, that if you always run into a dangerous situation regardless of the risk, that's not virtuous either. That's just being rash and foolish, and it ignores the fact that sometimes the most courageous thing to do is to retreat to fight another day. Nor is it throwing oneself into battle simply because one is predisposed to do so; that's just being pugnacious rather than virtuous. Courage, then, is using one's judgment (the closest possible translation is "pure practical reason", but judgment is a close enough analogue for present circumstances) to look at the given situation, evaluate all possible options, and consciously pick that action that best avoids the competing vices of cowardice and rashness. As a side note, it's important to note that this "golden mean" isn't always equally between the vices; the courageous action for instance is usually much closer to the rash action than it is to the cowardly action. But it neatly keeps the distinction intact at all times.

So bringing that concept back to the Force, the Force would seem to be something that is accessed by people who have diligently trained themselves to reach that modal point between competing vices and also helps them continue to do so. It's a mystical energy field that allows for knowledge of that golden mean and helps you maintain the balance between the pulls either way towards vice. The Dark Side, then, is tapping into that spiritual connection not to maintain one's position, but to further ones vicious impulses one way or another. If a Jedi's fear of dying causes him to lash out at others through the Force and strike them down, it's a cowardly act and an act of the Dark Side. Similarly, if he gets angry at others and rushes heedlessly into the fight to cut them down, that's also an act of the Dark Side, but this time he's acting rashly. The Dark Side is using ones spiritual attunement to the Force to further one's vicious impulses, an act which seemingly also warps the fabric of the Force around you.

I prefer this view of the force partly because it's entirely consistent with the original trilogy, it's inconsistent only with the parts of the prequel trilogy I consider Canon Discontinuity anyway, it makes sense, and (perhaps most importantly) it allows me to thik of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi as exactly what they were supposed to be: people who were awesome because of their great wisdom, patience and virtue, and not because they could use the Force like a really big mana pool despite the fact that they were doddering old buffoons.

[KingofMadCows]

Except the Force is also a guiding power like destiny. There are places, like Dagobah, that are "strong in the dark side." There is clearly an external element that pulls on people in one direction or the other.

[leafman]

There are places, like Dagobah, that are "strong in the dark side." There is clearly an external element that pulls on people in one direction or the other.

I think places like the Sith temple on Dagobah are strong in the Dark Side because of the strong residual energies left behind by the Sith, they probably did some pretty horrible acts in the temple. I don't remember the temple having the ability to sway the thoughts of people that are near it or enter it though. Yoda didn't seem to worry about sending Luke in there.

[Battleship789]

Hello, and welcome SW buffs I have a question about the Force and it's interaction with non Jedi and non Sith and I'm hoping you can help answer my question, if you so chose I'll accept any cannon answer from a scene in the movies to the most obscure EU material you know of.

The question is can one who is not attuned to the Force but who acts as how one might expect a Jedi or Sith to act be sensed as "aligned" to one side of the Force.

Now doubtlessly force adepts can sense emotions and have a nice progression from fear to ... but let's say a Jedi or Sith if you think it counts has entered a dinner and sits down at the counter.

Now there's a patron who is minding his own business eating a bit bored but safe can the Jedi use his mastery of the Force determine if the man is:

• a war criminal on the run?
• a serial killer?
• a weapons trafficker?
• a man who donates all his money and time to orphans?
• or some other action which is aligned with one Side or the other?

The short answer is Yes, but not with that much accuracy.

Force users can sense the surface feelings/thoughts of most beings (though some can keep these under wraps) and feel a sense of unease if near a being who means harm to themselves or others or a sense of warm/peace when near a being who is kind. However, unless you effectively mindrape them, you won't be able to tell any of the things mentioned in your list and these feelings can be offset by circumstance. Only the general mindset of a non-force sensitive being is "visible," as it were, and this gets muddled in the presence of many other beings (like a crowded street or market) or with training to shield one's mind.

[Xondoure]

Except the Force is also a guiding power like destiny. There are places, like Dagobah, that are "strong in the dark side." There is clearly an external element that pulls on people in one direction or the other.

Destiny isn't a guiding power, it is simply the end destination. (It doesn't have to guide your path because whatever path you follow is the destined path.)

As for Dagobah I liked it better when that cave simply reflected the conflict inside Luke, and wasn't some nexus of evil. But it's been a while since I've seen it, maybe it was always some sort of dark side kindling center.

[MCerberus]

Destiny isn't a guiding power, it is simply the end destination. (It doesn't have to guide your path because whatever path you follow is the destined path.)

As for Dagobah I liked it better when that cave simply reflected the conflict inside Luke, and wasn't some nexus of evil. But it's been a while since I've seen it, maybe it was always some sort of dark side kindling center.

You'd be think someone would, at the very least, put a sign up on Yavin or something as a warning.