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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    In Pandaland, we have.....no-one. Unless Alexstrasza suddenly decides to have a glass of the crazy juice all the other Aspects have been chugging lately.
    I'm sure they'll drag out someone, but more than the aging platform, WoW's ultimate shortcoming is a paucity of new, quality story. One of the reasons I abandoned Cata so quickly was that the villains and story of Cata were such a let-down after Wrath.

    The economic model of the MMO prevents the writers from ever simply ending the storyline, so they can move on to a new world, with a new story. More's the pity.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Continuation of the spoilered convo:

    Spoiler
    Show

    I really don't want Thrall back as warchief partly because I would have to stay away from Gen. Discussion for days lol and partly because as Karoht said, he has a lot on his plate. I am glad to know that he may not be back as a the warchief.

    Also you do have a point in not worrying about who is going to be the new leader of the Horde until we get to the point of removing Garrosh from the position. I find it interesting that they did not say kill. This could make an impact on the actual raid, simliar to HM Reg. We face Garrosh, and then the last phase only in HM would be some form of the Sha. That can help remove some of the "casual" QQ that is common.


    About the bosses, I kinda like the fact that we don't have any major Lore villains so far in MoP. Its a new world with its own set of problems and soon a whole new set of problems with us in it :p.

    Granted, you can only pull the whole untouched place card once maby twice so they need to go back to people who we need to have some kind of inkling of like the ones Ivellius listed.

    Although as much as people would like to kill her, I don't think Sylvanas is going to ever be a boss. The only real prove is my gut feeling, but she could have been dead...3 times over? If the Horde doesn't care enough to eliminate her for raising the Forsaken then I don't think she is going to push the envelope.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    This may just be me but I'm worried that they've run out of compelling villains to use as raid bosses.
    Vanilla had Nefarian, Ragnaros, C'thun, Onyxia - all of whom have well established presences in Warcraft history.
    Where were C'thun and Ragnaros prior to WoW? I think that constitutes them coming up with compelling villians, rather than merely recycling set pieces.


    BC we had Illidan (I was really sorry to see him go. He was one of my favourite characters, despite being a complete (scrubbed)) and then in Sunwell we even saw Kil'Jaeden.
    We also had a host of other great villians and bosses in BC, from Karazhan to Gruul to Magtheridon, and so on. Gruul was a set piece completely unique to BC content, and like most of the zones of BC, he had an entire zone (Blades Edge mountains and part of Nagrand) devoted to establishing him. In fact if you look at Burning Crusade, pretty much every zone centered around a different threat and major villian. The whole expansion was not centered on Illidan or Kil'Jaeden. One could argue that this was a superior means of set up and establishment of villians, along with storytelling.

    Also, thank you for being a fan of Illidan AND acknowledging that he was a jerk. For some reason everyone thinks he was this amazing good guy who just did some bad things for the sake of his people, rather than being a selfish jerkwad (which he was).
    He can still be a cool character and be a selfish person, and still do good things, but I just do not enjoy reading when the fanboys like to casually forget who the character was.

    Wrath of course we were up against Arthas and the first of the loopy Aspects, Malygos.
    With Cata, we met the second loopy Aspect Deathwing.
    Do you even know what made them crazy in the first place? They've both been crazy since the War of the Ancients. 10000 years ago. Malygos only recently got more crazy. Probably because of Yogg-Saron getting free and whispering in his ear.

    Unless Alexstrasza suddenly decides to have a glass of the crazy juice all the other Aspects have been chugging lately.
    If any Aspect was going to go crazy next, it would be Ysera or Nozdormu. Ysera because the Dream has been screwed up for a rather long time (detailed in game for years, along with the novel Stormrage), Nozdormu because time has been messing with him for a long time (detailed in game for years, along with the novel Twilight of the Aspects). And hey, you know, that stuff what happened when you go kill Deathwing.


    To go back to what I've been saying about the Burning Crusade model of storytelling.
    Each zone set up each boss as kind of the end boss of each zone. The only issue with that was, at the end of Hellfire Penninsula you weren't 70 and couldn't go kill Magtheridon.
    But clearly they can set up new bad guys just fine. Gruuls and Old Gods are prime examples. And as much as Wrath set up Arthas as THE big bad, plenty of the story directed at Naxxrammus and Ulduar. Specifically at Kel Thuzad and Yogg Saron directly, with lesser bosses inside those instances also given some setup.


    In Pandaland, we have.....no-one.
    It's like you completely ignored everything I wrote. I am the sad.

    First off we have the Sha. Feel free to say they aren't THE overarching big bad, because they probably aren't. But they are a very large threat, and Blizzard did add them new, therefore they aren't running out or unable to come up with new credible threats without mining all their established set pieces to death.

    And they are a very credible threat, probably not contained to just Pandaria. In theory, any time someone thinks bad thoughts or feels strong negative emotions, these things get stronger. Add on the coming war, and all the, you know, negative emotions associated with that... yeah, they're about to get seriously stronger. We don't even know if you can perminently kill them. How do you 'kill' the embodiment of anger? I see them being long term.

    There is also the Old Gods. We know for a fact that there is some Titan influence and involvement on Pandaria (look up Elegon), we know that Old Gods can't be far behind. Who are faceless and mysterious, but are compelling largely because they are faceless and mysterious.

    Finally, there is "the War itself" as Chris Metzen said. The Alliance and Horde both have many compelling characters who could involve themselves in a big bad kind of way. In fact, having 'the war' as a PvE focus could be a very refreshing change of pace. It would give the Alliance VS Horde war a real Center Stage feeling, rather than a behinds the scenes feeling that PvP has thus far relegated it to. Part of why I'm really interested to see how the whole story of Theremore Isle ends up advancing.

    As for what they have in mind for the next few raiding tiers, I have some theories. I see them making use of techniques they pulled in Firelands. A good few quests in the 85-90 zones along with some content specific quests or daily quests to establish the raid bosses (IE-The 'save Thrall' questline established a few Firelands bosses, so did the Firelands Dailies, there was the questline which introduced ALL the bosses of Zul'Gurub, even Mandokir's pet, several of the cata zone quests established dungeon and raid bosses like Cho'gall). And from what the Beta has shown me, this appears to be largely the case. Plenty of the Mogu you see in questing show up in the dungeons and raids.


    As for Garrosh = Boss, it should be noted that the wording they used was "final event" not "final raid" and for some reason everyone keeps confusing the two. Just figured that should be clarified.
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  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    Also, thank you for being a fan of Illidan AND acknowledging that he was a jerk. For some reason everyone thinks he was this amazing good guy who just did some bad things for the sake of his people, rather than being a selfish jerkwad (which he was).
    Oh I love Illidan, he was the sole reason why I could play the Night elves in WC3. He was a fantastic character who had his strengths and his weaknesses.

    Since I am thinking about WC3...

    Sylvanas Windrunner. I did NOT like her in WC3, her personality was...annoying. Its been a while (like 5+ years) since I played WC3 (which I should change) I just thought of her as a snooty rich person that didn't quite deserve her role in the Night Elf military.

    But when Arthas killed her and raised her from the dead and put her through a lot for anyone and she learned all about the dark side of life and she grew up because of it. She has no illusions of what life is and pulls no punches. She is one of those characters that I grew to love in WoW, I guess thats why I don't want her to die.

    Edit: If this helps, Sarah Kerrigan has always been one of my favorite SC characters
    Last edited by Dublock; 2012-08-03 at 12:45 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dublock View Post
    Continuation of the spoilered convo:

    Spoiler
    Show

    I really don't want Thrall back as warchief partly because I would have to stay away from Gen. Discussion for days lol and partly because as Karoht said, he has a lot on his plate. I am glad to know that he may not be back as a the warchief.

    Also you do have a point in not worrying about who is going to be the new leader of the Horde until we get to the point of removing Garrosh from the position. I find it interesting that they did not say kill. This could make an impact on the actual raid, simliar to HM Reg. We face Garrosh, and then the last phase only in HM would be some form of the Sha. That can help remove some of the "casual" QQ that is common.


    About the bosses, I kinda like the fact that we don't have any major Lore villains so far in MoP. Its a new world with its own set of problems and soon a whole new set of problems with us in it :p.

    Granted, you can only pull the whole untouched place card once maby twice so they need to go back to people who we need to have some kind of inkling of like the ones Ivellius listed.

    Although as much as people would like to kill her, I don't think Sylvanas is going to ever be a boss. The only real prove is my gut feeling, but she could have been dead...3 times over? If the Horde doesn't care enough to eliminate her for raising the Forsaken then I don't think she is going to push the envelope.
    I think they've outright stated that WoW is going through an era in which all the old villians are defeated so they have to create new ones.

    So yes, we have mostly run out of villians, thats part of the point of this, is NEW story line.


    -----------------

    P.S. Karoht

    Not sure how accurate it is (im assuming its based on lore presented in game) but if you read charefully the information on the emporer who created the Mists, it would seem the Big bad Sha (the "Sha of Anger",ect...I.E. the raid bosses)....well the way its written it seems like there is actually only those few Sha. All (possibly blindly and recklessly) created by ONE SINGLE PERSON. That big world raid boss? yea , thats ONE TYPE of negative energy from the pandaren emporer created long ago. And these smaller ones are like pieces of it, growing off our own anger, hate and dispair.

    What i personally think is going to happen (whether its final boss or not) is that if a fairly trainquil well meaning Emporer can create a giant raid boss of doom....well....Imagine what Garrosh and Varian could create.
    Last edited by Cerlis; 2012-08-04 at 12:40 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    If any Aspect was going to go crazy next, it would be Ysera or Nozdormu. Ysera because the Dream has been screwed up for a rather long time (detailed in game for years, along with the novel Stormrage), Nozdormu because time has been messing with him for a long time (detailed in game for years, along with the novel Twilight of the Aspects). And hey, you know, that stuff what happened when you go kill Deathwing.
    Nozdormu has already will go to be crazy, as seen in Cataclysm. It wouldn't surprise me to see Ysera end up that way at some point.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    That said, I'm not sure any of us are playing a game that could be retitled: 'Pandaland, where Dragons that used to be good guys are suddenly bad guys and will attack!'. I can certainly see the problem Blizzard faces with the creation of new content, but I don't think it'll do to just have all the other good guys we know at the moment suddenly go bad. They've already overdone that card a little much with:

    Deathwing
    Arthas
    Illidan
    Kil'Jaedan
    Kael'thas
    Malygos
    Netharion*
    Onyxia*

    When a good third of all the raid bosses from each expansion are just good guys that've gone loopy, we have a bit of a problem. I admire MoP's attempt to break that theme by making up completely new bad guys, but I don't see it working. Most of the WoW community is now far, far more cynical about new content than they were at the beginning of BC. The ones who aren't just saying 'You changed it now it sucks!' will be saying 'This content is stupid! I hate pandas! Why isn't this content like old WoW content?!'. Of course, the same people will complain if the new content IS like the old content, but that's because the playerbase as a whole is getting rather spoilt.

    The second problem is just that WoW has pretty much had its run. Finding 8 years of content for a game, even a MMORPG, was never going to be easy. Extending that out to 10 will be even more of a challenge. There really is only so much content you can make before people start getting sick of the 'Oh, what's this here? Another indescribable horror about to destroy the world as we know it, unless we can stop it!' approach. After a point people will legitimately wonder 'why's this all showing up now?'. It's not that Blizzard is doing a bad job of content, just that the style of the game doesn't suit (nor does the style of any game, really) the constant running inclusion of content like that.


    * I think so, anyway. They may have been bred all evil-like by DW.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Black dragons have always been the Chaotic Evil in most of WoW lore - presumably ever since Neltharion became DEathwing.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    We still have sargeras to fight right? Im really hoping for an expansion where we actually invade the twisting nether and take the fight straight to his legions. We could have each zone dedicated to a specific type of the burning legion, the citadel of the nathrazeim, those eredar, the 6 armed chicks, and a whole host of new and unique demonic models. Just to give us something interesting, make the progression have several paths, and have whatever path you choose effect the storyline and quests you get. Sort of like that starcraft 2 mission where you can choose to take out the enemies air defense OR the ground defense, but not both. And the next map makes you fight the final battle according to what you chose to cripple.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    We still have sargeras to fight right? Im really hoping for an expansion where we actually invade the twisting nether and take the fight straight to his legions. We could have each zone dedicated to a specific type of the burning legion, the citadel of the nathrazeim, those eredar, the 6 armed chicks, and a whole host of new and unique demonic models. Just to give us something interesting, make the progression have several paths, and have whatever path you choose effect the storyline and quests you get. Sort of like that starcraft 2 mission where you can choose to take out the enemies air defense OR the ground defense, but not both. And the next map makes you fight the final battle according to what you chose to cripple.
    Quite true, Sargeras would undeniably be the bbeg of WoW, and I've no doubt it'd be immesurably awesome to take him on, but it does raise the question:

    Then what? Once he's karked it, WoW is officially out of good villains. The powercreep inherent in the game model makes it impossible to justify any further bosses. It was difficult enough getting over the absurdity of a common garden camel in Cata being capable of soloing a 60ft tall molten giant from Molten Core. After a point, willing suspension of disbelief begins to fray.

    I'm distinctly reminded of a hilarious comic I saw on the WoW website a while back titled '2014'. It was made in 07, and examined exactly the problems involved if powercreep. You have a standard party, except they've all reach level 100, and each has about 2.5million hp. They're discussing the mechanics of the latest bossfight, who has an ability that will permanently lower the tier of your equipment every time it procs. The leader explains it as 'Just like the Elune mechanic from 2012' to which the Hunter replies 'Ha, my dog soloed Elune!'.

    At what point does a dog killing a God begin to become a problem? I'm not about to complain that we need more realism in a game where wizards can yell loudly and make fire explode from their hands, or where enemies won't bother attacking you unless you walk within 15 feet of them, but I feel like the powercreep is going to pose an insurmountable obstacle eventually.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Elm11 View Post
    Quite true, Sargeras would undeniably be the bbeg of WoW, and I've no doubt it'd be immesurably awesome to take him on, but it does raise the question:

    Then what? Once he's karked it, WoW is officially out of good villains. The powercreep inherent in the game model makes it impossible to justify any further bosses. It was difficult enough getting over the absurdity of a common garden camel in Cata being capable of soloing a 60ft tall molten giant from Molten Core. After a point, willing suspension of disbelief begins to fray.

    I'm distinctly reminded of a hilarious comic I saw on the WoW website a while back titled '2014'. It was made in 07, and examined exactly the problems involved if powercreep. You have a standard party, except they've all reach level 100, and each has about 2.5million hp. They're discussing the mechanics of the latest bossfight, who has an ability that will permanently lower the tier of your equipment every time it procs. The leader explains it as 'Just like the Elune mechanic from 2012' to which the Hunter replies 'Ha, my dog soloed Elune!'.

    At what point does a dog killing a God begin to become a problem? I'm not about to complain that we need more realism in a game where wizards can yell loudly and make fire explode from their hands, or where enemies won't bother attacking you unless you walk within 15 feet of them, but I feel like the powercreep is going to pose an insurmountable obstacle eventually.
    Not so much out of villains as out of preexisting villains. There are numerous steps that can be taken from there. You could go the everquest route, "Oh sorry, those werent the actual gods you slaughtered, just their avatars. HERE is where the REAL gods are hanging out." Or just make up some dark power that has been drawn to azeroth in response to the level of power being given off by this world now that everyone is capable of soloing the elemental lords. There is always room for another threat to show up, so running out of bad guys will never really happen.

    As for power creep, yes, it is a problem when it gets to that stage, as it does for any mmo that doesnt crash and burn shortly after opening. I find its best to ignore levels and relative power of trash in new content versus bosses in old. Clearly a camel isnt actually stronger than molten core ragnaros, (and I doubt it would actually win anyways if it was possible to set things up) but from a game balance view, the trash and bosses have to get harder to match the progression of gear, which has to happen or else people feel like they arent moving forward, which causes lots of retention issues. So once again, its best to pretend that that camel isnt 25 levels higher than an elemental lord. After all, in game, that elemental lord has been dead for years now anyways, so its hard to judge accurately. /nudge /nudge, /wink /wink, say no more.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Alt-aholics rejoice! Pandaria is introducing a new buff called Nephalem Valour Valor of the Ancients that will buff VP acquisition 50% once youve valor capped one of your toons from that server.

    Sounds good to me and I only have 3 85s. I can't imagine trying to cap VP for 11 toons like some people have.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    I'm not going to deny that there aren't good villains left to fight in WoW, like others have pointed out, Sargeras is still out there, and can still cause trouble, without any direct intervention either. The problem besetting WoW is that there aren't any more good STORIES to tell. Another Dragon Aspect corrupted? Heard it. More extra-planar terror from dimension X? Been there.

    What Warcraft really, really needs is some downtime. A fallow period where old characters can die off or retire, and new ones can be recruited. The Warcraft property was more or less idle for six years between the release of 'Beyond the Dark Portal' and 'Reign of Chaos'. Sadly, I don't think the Activision corporate overlords will allow that to happen before they force Blizzard to dilute their Warcraft brand into an April Fools' joke.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Yes. Pandarens were introduced artistically as an april fools joke. And then introduced into Warcraft 3 in a serious way. And then do the same with WoW. If you're going to cite a source, try one that doesn't suck like wowwiki, which has basically been kaput since mid-wrath.
    www.wowpedia.org/Pandaren

    How dare the fans say they want to see them implemented for real and how dare the company that makes the game actually listen to them. And how dare that company do it a second time in the face of 7 years of overwhelming fan demand.

    Fandumb ladies and gents. Fandumb.
    It could rain gold, the people would complain that it isn't silver.
    Seriously, this argument gets more tiresome every time I see it.


    As I see it, MoP is establishing new villains, rather a lot of them really, and setting the stage for some intrigue, and setting the stage for the open war that "fans" also demanded. The "war" story looks like it could get interesting, and start developing all kinds of 'villains' just the way the RTS games did. IE-Daelin Proudmoore.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    Yes. Pandarens were introduced artistically as an april fools joke. And then introduced into Warcraft 3 in a serious way. And then do the same with WoW. If you're going to cite a source, try one that doesn't suck like wowwiki, which has basically been kaput since mid-wrath.
    www.wowpedia.org/Pandaren
    Hey, I just grabbed the first link that came up when I googled 'Pandaren April Fools'. Being in charge of fact-checking the page-rank algorithm is well outside my day to day job description, I'm just trying to make a point.

    How dare the fans say they want to see them implemented for real and how dare the company that makes the game actually listen to them. And how dare that company do it a second time in the face of 7 years of overwhelming fan demand.
    There's a reason fan-service is generally treated with critical contempt. Just because an idea is popular doesn't make it a good idea, and there's no democratic representation of Blizzard game buyers, only squeaky wheels who incessantly troll the forums.

    Fandumb ladies and gents. Fandumb.
    It could rain gold, the people would complain that it isn't silver.
    Seriously, this argument gets more tiresome every time I see it.
    The only yellow I see raining from the Blizzard skies these days isn't gold, and I don't care if 99% of Blizzard players personally petitioned Michael Morhaime with chocolates and stripper-grams, begging him to include Pandarens, it's a DUMB idea whose mere presence in Azeroth makes the rest of the IP that much worse.

    As I see it, MoP is establishing new villains, rather a lot of them really, and setting the stage for some intrigue, and setting the stage for the open war that "fans" also demanded. The "war" story looks like it could get interesting, and start developing all kinds of 'villains' just the way the RTS games did. IE-Daelin Proudmoore.
    Really? Because as I see it, Blizzard has put the WoW franchise on autopilot. They'll keep cranking out successively less and less creative and ambitious content drops as the underlying engine grows more and more outdated, until their subscription numbers finally fail to justify further investment into the platform. And it's not like that arc isn't without precedent.

    Look, I'm a long-time Blizzard supporter. I like their games, and I'm willing to overlook the occasional goofy bull**** they seem intent on doing every so often. I'll pick up MoP, I'd certainly LOVE to be proven wrong. But my back to back disappointing experiences of Cataclysm and Diablo III don't exactly have me brimming with confidence.
    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2012-08-13 at 11:04 PM.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    As for power creep, yes, it is a problem when it gets to that stage, as it does for any mmo that doesnt crash and burn shortly after opening. I find its best to ignore levels and relative power of trash in new content versus bosses in old. Clearly a camel isnt actually stronger than molten core ragnaros, (and I doubt it would actually win anyways if it was possible to set things up) but from a game balance view, the trash and bosses have to get harder to match the progression of gear, which has to happen or else people feel like they arent moving forward, which causes lots of retention issues. So once again, its best to pretend that that camel isnt 25 levels higher than an elemental lord. After all, in game, that elemental lord has been dead for years now anyways, so its hard to judge accurately. /nudge /nudge, /wink /wink, say no more.
    That's not the kind of power creep that I worry about, so much as the 'running out new abilities to put on the player bar'. Like when they gave Warriors heroic leap but had to nerf intercept because they discovered that it made Warriors too mobile. The 'let's just cram 2 or 3 more abilities onto the player's action bar so we have some new class features to tout' issue, to the point where it's no longer POSSIBLE to play your class without heavy use of macros and UI customizations.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post

    Really? Because as I see it, Blizzard has put the WoW franchise on autopilot. They'll keep cranking out successively less and less creative and ambitious content drops as the underlying engine grows more and more outdated, until their subscription numbers finally fail to justify further investment into the platform. And it's not like that arc isn't without precedent.
    You mention Ambitious here and then mention Cata.

    You mean it wasn't ambitious to completely re-do levels 1-60? If you have not played a new alt since Cata it is amazing. Leveling has never been so much fun and interesting. Re-doing so much of the world, Blizzard deserves props and they did it well.

    I don't see the big deal about creating a new world with its own set of problems. It is perhaps the most "creative" in the sense of being something completely different. You can argue that it doesn't match the rest of the WoW universe, but personally it doesn't hold much water.

    This is all speculation but I think they are going to set the stage with MoP to introduce more villains, I think (or hope) that there will be guys who appear and then disappear before we can do anything about it.

    Have you played the Beta? Honestly the introduction of the Panda race and the race as a whole is a lot more serious then say the Goblins. The only real argument that is "Its pandas, must be in-mature!" while ignoring all the new lore that surrounds them that portrays them as a serious race that deals with some mature concepts and issues. I fail to see how dealing with that worsens the IP as a whole. I would be much more willing to argue that Goblins as they were introduced as a whole worsens the IP then the Pandas.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dublock View Post
    You mention Ambitious here and then mention Cata.

    You mean it wasn't ambitious to completely re-do levels 1-60? If you have not played a new alt since Cata it is amazing. Leveling has never been so much fun and interesting. Re-doing so much of the world, Blizzard deserves props and they did it well.
    I did, and I don't agree. They didn't 'completely redo' 1-60, they changed a few zones. Azshara, Thousand Needles, I didn't go everywhere that got a facelift, to be sure, but at a rough guess, I'd say about 30% of the content I encountered had been new. New in the sense of not the same content I leveled through on one of my earlier alts, but certainly not that new in the sense that it was the same formulaic 'collect 10 unicorn hooves' fare I had seen in every expansion.

    There were some cool zones in Cata, don't mistake me: I really liked the look of Deepholm, and I loved Vashj'ir. But the further along in Cata I got, the more dull everything became. Uldum, at least they were trying to do something interesting with the Indiana Jones homage, even though it was badly ham-handed and derivative, and Twilight Highlands was just bleah.

    I don't see the big deal about creating a new world with its own set of problems. It is perhaps the most "creative" in the sense of being something completely different. You can argue that it doesn't match the rest of the WoW universe, but personally it doesn't hold much water.
    Not sure what you're actually addressing here.

    This is all speculation but I think they are going to set the stage with MoP to introduce more villains, I think (or hope) that there will be guys who appear and then disappear before we can do anything about it.
    Of course they're going to introduce more villains. The question is, will the villains they introduce be vibrant, well-executed and entertaining? Will the places we're sent to battle them be engaging and fun?

    Have you played the Beta? Honestly the introduction of the Panda race and the race as a whole is a lot more serious then say the Goblins. The only real argument that is "Its pandas, must be in-mature!" while ignoring all the new lore that surrounds them that portrays them as a serious race that deals with some mature concepts and issues. I fail to see how dealing with that worsens the IP as a whole. I would be much more willing to argue that Goblins as they were introduced as a whole worsens the IP then the Pandas.
    No, I let my account lapse back in December of last year out of sheer disappointed boredom, and you don't get a beta invite without an active WoW account. Goblins have always been in Warcraft, since the days of Warcraft II. They're a part of the property, and their role as comic relief isn't that troubling to me. It's the fact that the Pandaren ARE being taken seriously when they're aesthetically ridiculous that's got me annoyed. As a one-off bit of comic relief, Pandaren are just fine. Seriously, this whole operation is being taken over by the Furries, and I'm not okay with it.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    The only yellow I see raining from the Blizzard skies these days isn't gold, and I don't care if 99% of Blizzard players personally petitioned Michael Morhaime with chocolates and stripper-grams, begging him to include Pandarens, it's a DUMB idea whose mere presence in Azeroth makes the rest of the IP that much worse.
    Feel free to explain WHY it is a dumb idea without referencing a nearly 10 year old piece of concept art.

    We get an entire race available to both factions, and it's far more fleshed out than the Draenei. The Blood Elves are pretty well developed and it still beats them. Isn't that a good thing? Having well developed races and major characters?


    They'll keep cranking out successively less and less creative and ambitious content drops
    And proof positive that you aren't actually following the beta. Let me guess, stopped reading at 'pandas' I take it?

    As a raider, the new bosses are some of their best yet. Major portions of the raid testers are pretty pleased with what we are getting for the first tier. In fact many of the mechanics are some of their most creative yet. Having mechanics that actually equalize DPS opportunity between ranged and melee? That is pretty clever.
    We're also getting entirely new types of content. But, you know, that isn't creative or ambitious or anything.
    As far as the starting zone and new zones are concerned, it beats Cataclysm content hands down. And I say that with the knowledge that I liked Cataclysm. Heck, the Lorewalkers faction is some of the best storytelling and background development I've seen in a long time.
    But I also love it when you talk to a character and they say something like "Legends tell of an ancient... [insert ancient legend]"
    Yeah, it's a bit of a trope in terms of Genre Savvy-ness, this is a world where most of those Legends are turning out to be true and not just stories, but hey, but I like to think that the reason person X tells me legend Y is because they know that too.


    I'll pick up MoP, I'd certainly LOVE to be proven wrong. But my back to back disappointing experiences of Cataclysm and Diablo III don't exactly have me brimming with confidence.
    And what exactly did you do in Cataclysm? Raid? PvP? Just curious.
    You probably mentioned it before but I have a poor memory.

    It's the fact that the Pandaren ARE being taken seriously when they're aesthetically ridiculous that's got me annoyed. As a one-off bit of comic relief, Pandaren are just fine. Seriously, this whole operation is being taken over by the Furries, and I'm not okay with it.
    Raaaaawwwwwrrrrrr I hate furries raaaawwwwwrrrr.
    I'm kidding mind you. Saw the same remarks over and over concerning the Worgen in Cata.

    Do you even know where Pandarens were used in Warcraft 3? It was canon and not just a one-off joke. Try looking at my source article I linked earlier.
    Also, Furbolgs. They exist in the game, they have for years. It was also stated that Pandarens are related to Furbolgs.
    Also, if you read the novel series War of the Ancients, they are referenced there as well. Furbolgs have been around longer than Taurens, and it stands to reason that the Pandarens have been around longer than most other races, particularly humans.


    @Cata Revamp
    As someone who just leveled 2 characters from 1-85, I really did enjoy the new quests that were added. Stonetalon Mountains is probably the best new zone out there. I found that below level 40, I was only killing things or doing drop quests about 30% of the time, whereas between 40 and 60 that number climbed to 60% of the time. The zones do get progressively more aggressive and 'go kill stuff for us' oriented the further you go.
    Outland and Northrend remain unchanged (but they had a good ratio of non-traditional quests mixed in with the normal stuff), and Cataclysm zones were about 30% non-traditional questing (not counting quests where all you did was talk to an NPC and watch a cutscene). And even with all that killing, not all the time was it your character using your abilities the entire way. Sometimes there was a mcguffin to utilize or bombs to plant or vehicles to use.

    But hey, go figure, it is a game where you kill stuff. Who would have thought?
    Last edited by Karoht; 2012-08-07 at 12:24 PM.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    Feel free to explain WHY it is a dumb idea without referencing a nearly 10 year old piece of concept art.
    Even if completely unrelated, this makes it a ridiculous idea to brink monk pandas into an MMO

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZCCQ5OhsCc

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hullabaloo View Post
    Even if completely unrelated, this makes it a ridiculous idea to brink monk pandas into an MMO

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZCCQ5OhsCc
    Sadly, Warcraft beat them to it by 5 years. I guess you could argue the movie ruined the concept for people.

    I know, I know--people think pandaren are a joke. Well, guess what? They're as much a joke as tauren, furbolgs, half-ogres, gnolls, kobolds, murlocs, and makrura. They've been around longer than the current draenei* and worgen. What's the problem with having another animal-headed humanoid race?

    * Pre-BC draenei had a vastly different characterization and appearance.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Sadly, Warcraft beat them to it by 5 years. I guess you could argue the movie ruined the concept for people.
    I think its this. 4+ years after the movie was released (talked about 5+ years ago) they come out with Kung Fu Pandas in the game. Ya warcraft lore had it before the movie, but how many people knew about Kung Fu Pandas from WoW 4 years ago vs those that knew it as an annoying and stupid movie?
    Personally I dont care much, kungfu pandas are quite low on my list of why im not buying MoP.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    Feel free to explain WHY it is a dumb idea without referencing a nearly 10 year old piece of concept art.
    Ever heard the expression 'No accounting for taste'? I don't like it, just like I didn't like the Worgen change from this to this. What else do I need to say? There's a line between a stylized aesthetic and pure, unvarnished, Disney-esque ridiculousness.

    We get an entire race available to both factions, and it's far more fleshed out than the Draenei. The Blood Elves are pretty well developed and it still beats them. Isn't that a good thing? Having well developed races and major characters?
    Whether the Pandaren are more or less well-fleshed out than other races introduced in a prior expansion is a) not something I'm well equipped to debate, since I've only seen what little promotional material has been released via the MoP website, and b) totally irrelevant. If the developers spent 2 years making a new race who communicated through flatulence, coming up with a full back-story, a complicated political landscape full of intrigue, and detailed quests, that still wouldn't make it a good idea.

    And proof positive that you aren't actually following the beta. Let me guess, stopped reading at 'pandas' I take it?
    You know, I don't need to drink sewage to know I'm not going to like it. It's pretty clear that the MoP/Cata aesthetic choices don't offend you. They DO offend me. I don't need to justify that, to you or anyone else. And when 9/25 rolls around, we'll get a pretty clear picture of whether WoW has jumped the shark (if you're of the opinion that they didn't do so already with Cataclysm).

    The guy who said don't judge a book by its cover never worked in marketing.

    As a raider, the new bosses are some of their best yet. Major portions of the raid testers are pretty pleased with what we are getting for the first tier. In fact many of the mechanics are some of their most creative yet. Having mechanics that actually equalize DPS opportunity between ranged and melee? That is pretty clever.
    We're also getting entirely new types of content. But, you know, that isn't creative or ambitious or anything.
    As far as the starting zone and new zones are concerned, it beats Cataclysm content hands down. And I say that with the knowledge that I liked Cataclysm. Heck, the Lorewalkers faction is some of the best storytelling and background development I've seen in a long time.
    But I also love it when you talk to a character and they say something like "Legends tell of an ancient... [insert ancient legend]"
    Yeah, it's a bit of a trope in terms of Genre Savvy-ness, this is a world where most of those Legends are turning out to be true and not just stories, but hey, but I like to think that the reason person X tells me legend Y is because they know that too.

    And what exactly did you do in Cataclysm? Raid? PvP? Just curious.
    You probably mentioned it before but I have a poor memory.
    Mostly instancing and PVP, though no through choice. The Guild Leveling system was a stab through the heart for small guilds like mine. Without the sheer weight of numbers to deliver competitive guild perks, we hemorrhaged players to zerg guilds until we didn't even have enough to run a 5 man instance.

    Raaaaawwwwwrrrrrr I hate furries raaaawwwwwrrrr.
    I'm kidding mind you. Saw the same remarks over and over concerning the Worgen in Cata.
    That's because both races are symptoms of the same problem.

    Do you even know where Pandarens were used in Warcraft 3? It was canon and not just a one-off joke. Try looking at my source article I linked earlier.

    Also, Furbolgs. They exist in the game, they have for years. It was also stated that Pandarens are related to Furbolgs.
    Also, if you read the novel series War of the Ancients, they are referenced there as well. Furbolgs have been around longer than Taurens, and it stands to reason that the Pandarens have been around longer than most other races, particularly humans.
    Whether they're or not they've been made canon is entirely orthogonal to my point. The introduction of canon is a developer decision, just like everything about a privately managed IP. Also, FWIW, Furbolg were most definitely not introduced any earlier than Tauren, they're both circa WCIII:RoC.

    @Cata Revamp
    As someone who just leveled 2 characters from 1-85, I really did enjoy the new quests that were added. Stonetalon Mountains is probably the best new zone out there. I found that below level 40, I was only killing things or doing drop quests about 30% of the time, whereas between 40 and 60 that number climbed to 60% of the time. The zones do get progressively more aggressive and 'go kill stuff for us' oriented the further you go.
    Outland and Northrend remain unchanged (but they had a good ratio of non-traditional quests mixed in with the normal stuff), and Cataclysm zones were about 30% non-traditional questing (not counting quests where all you did was talk to an NPC and watch a cutscene). And even with all that killing, not all the time was it your character using your abilities the entire way. Sometimes there was a mcguffin to utilize or bombs to plant or vehicles to use.

    But hey, go figure, it is a game where you kill stuff. Who would have thought?
    I'm glad you had fun, I did not find the leveling experience to be profoundly different from my earlier leveling, and don't recall ever seeing a quest mechanic I hadn't seen before: Bombs from BC, Vehicles from Wrath, In-game cutscenes and phasing from Wrath, etc.

    I already alluded to the parts of Cata I thought were creative, well executed and fun: Vashj'ir, Deepholm, to a lesser extent Uldum. And it's entirely fitting and proper that was where the developers focused the lion's share of innovation: Where the most players would experience it. But as a whole experience, Cata was an exercise in letdown. Some great fun on your way to 85, but less and less interesting stuff once you got there.

    Hey, at the end of the day, you could be right. It may be that MoP will be great in spite of the stupidity of the Pandarens. I've seen some good looking screenshots, and at least we know that without having to re-prim and texture the world map, there will be more developer time devoted to the forward-looking content, ie: The stuff I really care about. I'd love to be surprised.
    Last edited by The_Jackal; 2012-08-07 at 03:04 PM.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    F
    Also, if you read the novel series War of the Ancients, they are referenced there as well. Furbolgs have been around longer than Taurens, and it stands to reason that the Pandarens
    There's a fair amount of evidence that the Tauren go back before the War of the Ancients. In all probability they're at least as old as the Night Elves, if not older.

    Nothing solid though. (One of my most wished for things to appear in game is more information concerning the history of the Tauren: the one race we know virtually nothing about)

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    I did, and I don't agree. They didn't 'completely redo' 1-60, they changed a few zones. Azshara, Thousand Needles, I didn't go everywhere that got a facelift, to be sure, but at a rough guess, I'd say about 30% of the content I encountered had been new. New in the sense of not the same content I leveled through on one of my earlier alts, but certainly not that new in the sense that it was the same formulaic 'collect 10 unicorn hooves' fare I had seen in every expansion.
    It was new in the sense that the entire storyline of the zones were changed, tons of new quests were added, and levelling goes by way faster and more enjoyably, since you arent stuck grinding mobs when you run out of quests but cant reach the next zone yet. Yeah, they didnt come up with a long list of new quest TYPES so much, but come on, this is how quests work and have worked for 20 years worth of mmorpgs. Its like complaining of the basic facets of how mmos work because "You have seen the whole, level up till you are ready for the next zone" concept before.
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    It was new in the sense that the entire storyline of the zones were changed, tons of new quests were added, and levelling goes by way faster and more enjoyably, since you arent stuck grinding mobs when you run out of quests but cant reach the next zone yet. Yeah, they didnt come up with a long list of new quest TYPES so much, but come on, this is how quests work and have worked for 20 years worth of mmorpgs. Its like complaining of the basic facets of how mmos work because "You have seen the whole, level up till you are ready for the next zone" concept before.
    I never had the problem of grinding mobs when I ran out of content, even in Vanilla. And, as I pointed out, there were areas whose content was presented in a more fresh and dynamic fashion, but they were past level 80. Sorry, I just didn't get a lot of fun value out of the low-level Cata re-tread. I'm not saying it was particularly BAD. I'm saying it wasn't sufficiently improved over the default vanilla experience to have warranted my time and effort grinding through it, especially since I already showed up with all the level 80+ characters I could have wanted, and then some. Maybe that's not fair to the developers, maybe there isn't any kind of leveling content that would have made re-leveling as fun and engaging as when I first did it. I certainly suspect that they didn't have WoW-beta participants in mind when they did their lowbie revamp. But it doesn't change the fact that Cata lacked pith where I wanted it to be: Fun stuff to do with my level 85 warrior.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    I don't know, I've been playing WoW since beta and I still find it especially enjoyable to play the beginning levels. Especially since cata. I love what they did with Undead starting zones.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    I started a Enhancement shaman yesterday (female dwarves are teh sexy <3) and I was looking into which professions to get. Back in BC, Blacksmithing was really funky - you could choose to be an armoursmith or weaponsmith and you got some truly beautiful items as a result.

    I looked today and the profession has been....gutted. There's no other suitable term for it. Lionheart Sword - gone, Skyforged Axe? Gone. The epic breastplate - gone.

    And for what, two crappy sockets? And I thought tailoring was bad.

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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    I started a Enhancement shaman yesterday (female dwarves are teh sexy <3) and I was looking into which professions to get. Back in BC, Blacksmithing was really funky - you could choose to be an armoursmith or weaponsmith and you got some truly beautiful items as a result.

    I looked today and the profession has been....gutted. There's no other suitable term for it. Lionheart Sword - gone, Skyforged Axe? Gone. The epic breastplate - gone.

    And for what, two crappy sockets? And I thought tailoring was bad.
    You think that's the only thing they did? The even stole those recipes from the people that had them. I asked a GM about it and you know what he could tell me? NOTHING. Compensation for stealing that recipe? Nope.
    I wanted that sword for mogging since it hasn't been avaible the last time I played. So I looked up my Smithing book... and nope not there... I asked if the weapon itself is still ingame. Apparently yes but you can't get it anymore.
    That's just one of the aggravating changes. Those weapons/armors were the unique speciality of the Blacksmith. When we compare that to what other professions get:
    Jewelstuff: Selling gems making loads of moneyz + a mount with the MoP.
    Leatherworking: ~1000 gold for pant-enchants for non-casters
    Tailoring: a mount + bags + enchants for casters
    Alchemy: Potions, Flasks, a Mount
    Enchanting: enchants, a pet
    Engineering: Pets, Funny stuff for yourself, 2 mounts

    So what do we get from Blacksmithing? Beltbuckels... jay. What else? Crafting stuff that is outdated as soon as the second raidtier of that expansion started? Crafting green items to put into AH for enchanters to buy where we have to compete with Tailors and Leatherworkers? Jeah seems reasonable... NOT.

    I think I've ranted enough for now...
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    Default Re: World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

    I got both DMF mounts on Dublock and I got 3 of the mini pets on various alts. I think I got 3 more months before I can finish up DMF.

    Although I might be continuing because I can't pass up 5 skill points on various professions...BS and LW which are a pain in the behind. Enchanting easy, Tailoring easy, inscription is depressing because you have almost on recipes due to the glyph mastery books only dropping in WotLK (fixing in MoP yay!), and of course the gathering professions are easy.

    Although I noticed last night on my DK, I actually have higher BS then mining skill, yay!
    Boo!

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