Pathfinder: Dipping for Fun and Profit (mostly Profit)

[ericgrau]

Rage/Rage Powers is not considered 'dip worthy' due to the short duration of use.

That's about the only reason I dip barbarian in multiple builds. 6 rounds is enough to do some damage. I once made a character who dipped barbarian and took a scabbard of vigor for a +3 weapon for 3 rounds at low levels. I got combat feats, dipping for as many as possible, and called him the 3 round wonder. The first couple fights were over in 3 rounds. Most lasted 3-4, enough that anything past 3 was cleanup anyway. Finally the DM ambushed me alone and the fight went to 7 rounds before my allies saved me. And I was still fighting in the negatives thanks to diehard. Since you die at -con in Pathfinder and rage boosts con I had lots of room to spare until the rage ran out; but this was an unusually long fight targetted directly at my character.

Dipping a travel domain cleric is nice for the +10' base speed.

I'm also a fan of dipping 1 level of casters for wand and staff use. Even paladin or ranger is good for a CLW wand or such.

[grarrrg]

Guide is done.

The Prestige Dipping section turning into more of a Generalized "Quick" Guide, but since you need to know IF you can qualify for a PrC before dipping...

I request help with anything notable I may have overlooked.
I also would like input on better 'short descriptions' for the Prestige Section.



Oddities:
Arcane Archers are proficient with Tower Shields?

Shackles Pirate Quick Appraise ability does nothing? An may actually be WORSE than not having it?

Master Chymist is the only PrC specifically tailored so that only 1 class can enter it? (most PrC's can be entered with 'dips' to get necessary abilities, OR can be entered with a large investment in one of a variety of classes)

Pathfinder Chronicler gains Rounds of Bardic Performance at level 3, but has no way to use them until level 4?

There are 4 classes that advance Casting, but DON'T require it for entry? Diabolist, Demoniac, Souldrinker, Spherewalker, of these Spherewalker at least gives you a "pity" spell slot each level.

[CTrees]

Oddities:
Arcane Archers are proficient with Tower Shields?

Strangely yes. I suppose one could make an AA with at least a dip of synthesist summoner and extra arms wielding a bow and one or more shields. Two tower shields providing cover from different directions while still having a bow available would be... interesting.

EDIT: Shackles Pirate's Quick Appraise specifies "may." Presumably one may also use appraise in the normal timeframe of one standard or full round action. The ability just... grants the ability to take longer to appraise, if that was desireable, for some reason.

[Chained Birds]

Hmm, Goblins can get into both Shadow Dancer and Assassin by lvl 4 due to their Rogue Favored Class bonus of +1 Skill Rank into either Stealth or Ride. I couldn't find any Prcs that have X Ride as a requirement though. Pathfinder has got a lot of love for the Goblins.

[jmelesky]

Pathfinder has got a lot of love for the Goblins.

3.5ed had some serious love for kobolds, so it seems a perfectly reasonable next step...

[Chained Birds]

3.5ed had some serious love for kobolds, so it seems a perfectly reasonable next step...

I was just about to comment about that as a response to anyone saying that PF Goblins are rigged. I wonder which monster race is going to get boosted in 5th edition?

[mikau013]

I was just about to comment about that as a response to anyone saying that PF Goblins are rigged. I wonder which monster race is going to get boosted in 5th edition?

Gnomes?

[grarrrg]

Gnomes?

Kender

[Cieyrin]

Hmm, Goblins can get into both Shadow Dancer and Assassin by lvl 4 due to their Rogue Favored Class bonus of +1 Skill Rank into either Stealth or Ride. I couldn't find any Prcs that have X Ride as a requirement though. Pathfinder has got a lot of love for the Goblins.

Hmm, I wonder if that's really meant to break the skill point limit, as if it's not it's worse than the normal favored class bonus but otherwise I don't see a point.

[grarrrg]

Hmm, I wonder if that's really meant to break the skill point limit, as if it's not it's worse than the normal favored class bonus but otherwise I don't see a point.

Agreed.
Normally you can get an HP, or a Skill Point.
Goblin > Rogue lets you get...a Skill Point that must be put into a specific skill.
And even if it is Skill RANK and not Skill POINT, that still only puts you +1 above the curve, and then only so long as you do it EVERY LEVEL....
Unless the RANKs count AFTER you invest points, in which case you can effectively Double Progress 1 of those skills....

Wow... what the heck?

[CTrees]

Kender

Nooooooooo...

Since it's apparently small races, my bet is vegepygmies. Though modrons or githyanki would make convert.

[Coidzor]

Agreed.
Normally you can get an HP, or a Skill Point.
Goblin > Rogue lets you get...a Skill Point that must be put into a specific skill.
And even if it is Skill RANK and not Skill POINT, that still only puts you +1 above the curve, and then only so long as you do it EVERY LEVEL....
Unless the RANKs count AFTER you invest points, in which case you can effectively Double Progress 1 of those skills....

Wow... what the heck?

Yay for bad writing! This already been brought up on the Paizo boards? I'd search but the forums over there make me dizzy.

[Cieyrin]

Agreed.
Normally you can get an HP, or a Skill Point.
Goblin > Rogue lets you get...a Skill Point that must be put into a specific skill.
And even if it is Skill RANK and not Skill POINT, that still only puts you +1 above the curve, and then only so long as you do it EVERY LEVEL....
Unless the RANKs count AFTER you invest points, in which case you can effectively Double Progress 1 of those skills....

Wow... what the heck?

The normal Favored Class bonus also says 'rank,' so apparently it's worthless. Welp, at least we still have Goblin Gunslingers, eh?

[Infernalbargain]

Oracle of the heavens into sorc. Nothing like scintillating pattern for the no save, just lose.

[KutuluKultist]

Just a few comments.

• On dipping for rage.
  This can be very profitable, if you have feats to spare. Extra rage gives you 6 rnds, taking that feat twice, easily done with a fighter, gives you 16+Con rnds/day, which should be enough.
• On dipping for animal companions.
  Druid can be dipped by a ranger to get a better and earlier animal companion. Boon companion helps a lot. This also works to a lesser degree with the oracle's bonded mount and the cavalier's mount ability. Finally, a sorcerer with the wildblooded sylvan bloodline gets an animal companion, too.
• On dipping for trapfinding.
  Keep in mind that you get very little of the bonus, if you merely dip. Given the usual DCs for traps, I find it of doubtful value to dip for this. Arcane insight is a bit better.
• On dipping for a mount.
  4 levels of cavalier and the horse master feat can give you a mount based on your character level. That seems amazing enough to justify a four level dip, if you want a mount.
• On dipping fighter
  The lore warden archetype (from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide) gives combat expertise at second level instead of bravery and all intelligence based skills as class skills. At third level it gives +2 to CMB and CMD. It loses medium & heavy armor and shield proficiency as well as armor training.
• On dipping monk.
  The maneuver master's flurry of maneuvers should be mentioned, since if can be used with any weapons and is hence useful for anyone trying to focus on combat maneuvers. Furthermore, the master of many styles's fuse style ability can also be made to work without any further investment in monk.
• On dipping ranger.
  I think it would be good to mention that the bonus feat can be had without meeting the prerequisites (important e.g. for a dervish dancer wanting power attack) and that you only get to use them in light armor or medium armor.
  Also, the guide archetype grants the ranger's focus ability instead of favored enemy, which is a decent replacement.
• On dipping rogue.
  The thug archetype gives the frightening abiltiy instead of trapfinding.
• On sorcerer bloodlines.
  The orc and draconic bloodlines give a bonus to damage per dice of damage, not per level of sorcerer. This is highly profitable for any blaster caster, since it is not limited to sorcerer spells.
• On dipping summoner.
  Even a low level Eidolon can have some impressive skills thanks to skill focus & the skilled evolution.
• On shadow dancer's summon shadow.
  Maybe mention explicitly that it has your BAB and half your HP.

[grarrrg]

Just a few comments.

• On dipping for animal companions.
• On dipping for trapfinding.
• On dipping fighter
• On dipping monk.
• On dipping ranger.
• On dipping rogue.
• On sorcerer bloodlines.
• On dipping summoner.
• On shadow dancer's summon shadow.
  

Updated: Rage, Horse Master, Shadowdancer

Familiars got listed because they give Passive benefits to your character, regardless of level. Animal Companions/Mounts are less dip friendly, and Boon Companion can only be taken once per "furry friend".
Boon Companion gives me an idea, how many "dip encouragement" type feats are there? I know there's one that counts your Inquisitor Levels as Cleric for purposes of Channel Energy. What else is there?

Trapfinding is more important for "Disable Magical" than it is for the numerical bonuses. And there are plenty of other ways to enhance your Skill checks.

Lore Warden was already included, but I did miss the flat +2 CMB/CMD

Small update to Monk, Master of Many Styles was already listed.

In general, Ranger's Focus is much worse than Favored Enemy, it is only 1/day for +2 attack/damage. Favored Enemy gives bonus on Skills as well as attack/damage, and is all day every day vs. certain types.

Rogue>Thug>Frightening only increases Shaken duration by 1 round, and/or can cause Frightened for 1 round. Duration is too short to be listed.

Sorc>Drag/Orc, +1 damage/die is really not that much.
This also falls in that grey area of "not explicitly listed as [class] only, but assumed to be so when written".

Eidolon skills, while impressive at low levels, will VERY quickly lag behind.


Please, keep any tweaks/suggestions coming.
Especially on "dip-helper" feats.

[Coidzor]

Trapfinding is more important for "Disable Magical" than it is for the numerical bonuses. And there are plenty of other ways to enhance your Skill checks.

Oh 12 gods, yes. I remember how much I raged when I found out about how they left that change only half done.

Rogue>Thug>Frightening only increases Shaken duration by 1 round, and/or can cause Frightened for 1 round. Duration is too short to be listed.

Might be worth mentioning for intimidate builds, as it's the only way to get something past shaken without using magic from what I've seen.

[jmelesky]

Might be worth mentioning for intimidate builds, as it's the only way to get something past shaken without using magic from what I've seen.

Well, and frightened, even for a round, is really nice, especially if they flee in a manner that provokes AoOs.

That said, there's a non-magical way to get panicked out of shaken: the Terrifying Howl rage power. Turn your Intimidarian into an area-of-effect debuffer in just 8 levels!

[Novawurmson]

Don't forget Enforcer+Bludgeoner

Working on a sample Intimidating Barbarian for my guide.

[grarrrg]

Don't forget Enforcer+Bludgeoner

Working on a sample Intimidating Barbarian for my guide.

Save a feat, grab the Merciful weapon enchantment, it either does Nonlethal +1d6, or just Lethal without the damage bonus.
There is also the Order of the Blue Rose Cavalier option for no-penalty Nonlethal and +2 damage, but you can't let your friends kill them :(

And Intimidating Prowess feat to add Str to your Intimidate check.

[Infernalbargain]

For oracle of the heavens, you should add the awesome display revelation. Mildly narrow in application, but nothing says you are beaten more than scintillating pattern for max effect.

[grarrrg]

For oracle of the heavens, you should add the awesome display revelation. Mildly narrow in application, but nothing says you are beaten more than scintillating pattern for max effect.

It fits into that gray area of "strictly for this class and this class only" and "free for all".


Also, assuming it works the "good" way, it's still extremely niche.
There are 8 Illusion (Pattern) spells in the game, only 5 of which care about HD, and of those only 1 does NOT allow a Will Save.

As-is I'm leaving it out. If the people demand it, I will add it.

Thoughts?

[deuxhero]

You mentioned 4 level dips would be mentioned if they gave something awesome?

Cavalier 4 qualifys you for Horse Master, which gives you full mount advancement regardless of class.

[grarrrg]

You mentioned 4 level dips would be mentioned if they gave something awesome?

Cavalier 4 qualifys you for Horse Master, which gives you full mount advancement regardless of class.

And that's why it's already in the guide.

[Acanous]

mm. I've had some problems with Pathfinder's hate of multiclassing and Prestige classes. While 3.5 had multiclassing penalties, you could at least go 2 classes and a Prestige without ever eating them by RAW. Pathfinder just hates you for trying.
You lose progression on all relevant class features. By PF Errata you can't get more *Spells known* advancing in a PrC. You get very few bonuses, and most of the old bonuses you're used to seeing from 3.5 require significant level investment in a single class to see.
There's also not a whole lot of power proliferation.

The difference in Pathfinder/3.5 builds seems to be that pathfinder builds are practically set in stone from the get-go. You choose a base class. Then you choose what one (Maybe 2 if you push it) archetypes to take. This is your character. It is now done. (Most notably in Barbarian and Bard, any spontanious caster. Less so in Wizard or other prepared casters.)

3.5 sure you ended up in a niche, but every level you could expand that niche, or make yourself more capable within it, allowing you to define your character a bit at a time. Retraining existed in case you want to completely change it. It seems 3.5 is cool with being fluid (Even XP is a river) while Pathfinder is more fixed. Your DM can look at your class and archetype, and they can easilly predict what you'll be pulling 5 levels from now, 8 levels from now, and at level 20.

This makes Pathfinder a little easier on the DM, but a little oppressive to anyone who enjoyed tinkering with 3.5. (Especially to those who enjoyed tinkering with bards)

As 3.P, this is unnoticable- you keep 3.5 prestige classes and options, the PF single classers get bonuses to compensate for the abilities those who multiclass get. If you go only 3.5, there's very little reason to stay in a base class. If you go Pathfinder only, there's very little reason to multiclass.

I wonder who it is at Paizo who'se setting this policy?

[Cieyrin]

mm. I've had some problems with Pathfinder's hate of multiclassing and Prestige classes. While 3.5 had multiclassing penalties, you could at least go 2 classes and a Prestige without ever eating them by RAW. Pathfinder just hates you for trying.
You lose progression on all relevant class features. By PF Errata you can't get more *Spells known* advancing in a PrC. You get very few bonuses, and most of the old bonuses you're used to seeing from 3.5 require significant level investment in a single class to see.
There's also not a whole lot of power proliferation.

The difference in Pathfinder/3.5 builds seems to be that pathfinder builds are practically set in stone from the get-go. You choose a base class. Then you choose what one (Maybe 2 if you push it) archetypes to take. This is your character. It is now done. (Most notably in Barbarian and Bard, any spontanious caster. Less so in Wizard or other prepared casters.)

3.5 sure you ended up in a niche, but every level you could expand that niche, or make yourself more capable within it, allowing you to define your character a bit at a time. Retraining existed in case you want to completely change it. It seems 3.5 is cool with being fluid (Even XP is a river) while Pathfinder is more fixed. Your DM can look at your class and archetype, and they can easilly predict what you'll be pulling 5 levels from now, 8 levels from now, and at level 20.

This makes Pathfinder a little easier on the DM, but a little oppressive to anyone who enjoyed tinkering with 3.5. (Especially to those who enjoyed tinkering with bards)

As 3.P, this is unnoticable- you keep 3.5 prestige classes and options, the PF single classers get bonuses to compensate for the abilities those who multiclass get. If you go only 3.5, there's very little reason to stay in a base class. If you go Pathfinder only, there's very little reason to multiclass.

I wonder who it is at Paizo who'se setting this policy?

You're not quite correct on the Spells Known part, as spontaneous casters still get new spells if they're owed them. Those with spellbooks or their equivalents (wizards, alchemists, magi and witches) don't get to learn new spells automatically, which may or may not be a problem, depending on how available scrolls and spellbooks are, whether you find them, steal them or buy them. That's nothing new from 3.5, it's just that PF tends to give more things that advance by class level than 3.5 classes do.

[Southern Cross]

As for the Magaambyan Arcanist, I would also point out that while it does have access to one druid spell per level, that spell is two levels less than your other spells. Thus if you go into the class at level 6, you can learn a single first-level druid spell, and if you stay in the PRC, you gain one first level druid spell, two second level druid spells, two third level druid spells, two fourth level druid spells, two fifth level druid spells, and one sixth level druid spell.
(The major benefit of the class, aside from the Spell Mastery shenanigans and the constant protection from evil at 5th level, is the fact that you get access to the Good domain spells at 9th level in the PRC).

[grarrrg]

As for the Magaambyan Arcanist, I would also point out that while it does have access to one druid spell per level, that spell is two levels less than your other spells. Thus if you go into the class at level 6, you can learn a single first-level druid spell, and if you stay in the PRC, you gain one first level druid spell, two second level druid spells, two third level druid spells, two fourth level druid spells, two fifth level druid spells, and one sixth level druid spell.
(The major benefit of the class, aside from the Spell Mastery shenanigans and the constant protection from evil at 5th level, is the fact that you get access to the Good domain spells at 9th level in the PRC).

Tweaked the entry, expanded on it some.
Did not mention the 5th or 9th level abilities, as this is still "technically" more of a Dipping Guide than a PrC guide, even though it has elements of both
(that and to do a proper right up of every good/interesting PrC ability would be an entire guide itself).

[unbutu]

This thread has been every usefull to me in the past. Do we keep updating it ?

Investigator
1 : Trapfinding

1a: (steel-hound) Rapier, Sap and 1 firearm proficiency
2a: (steel-hound) Amateur Gunslinger + Gunsmithing Feat (and a gun to play with)

1a: (mastermind) +1d6 to all Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge, or(seems like there's 1 missing) skill checks (infinite uses)

1a: (Sleuth) Opportunistic evasion: Uncanny dodge CHA times/day (minimum 1.)

[grarrrg]

This thread has been every usefull to me in the past. Do we keep updating it ?

Investigator

Yeah, I'll get to the ACG sometime.
And there's a PrC or two I missed, and a handful of (non-ACG) Archetypes.