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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    That is a completely facetious and unhelpful comparison between two completely different reactions. Having two Cs in my name is something passive - certainly when you see it you could take offence but it's much more rational to assume that I just have them in my name and happened to post on the forum by coincidence.

    The person who posted this thread was an active party in posting something negative about the GM. There is no way of confusing his intent - he definitely was posting about a specific individual and situation that he wanted advice on how to deal with and that he disliked. Certain people are sensitive to such actions and are not wrong to be so, even if they can't be identified. Taking such a dismissive attitude in no way aids to resolve the situation and is basically counterproductive in every way.




    No, they're reading exactly what you wrote and disagreeing with it. They don't think you should have control of the game, only the NPCs and to a degree what they encounter.

    What people choose to do with their characters is their choice and punishing the players is what people object to. If a character does something dumb and gets killed - well, such is life. If a character does something dumb and the player gets sent away like a small child - well, a majority of people dislike that on this forum. Not everyone, everywhere and if you're players are happy, well, hurray for them.
    Wait, so people here thinks its better for a paladin to kill someone for almost getting some groupmembers killed 'inhiseyes' than it is just dismissing them. So you say people here prefer having their characters killed to having to miss out on part of the plot for a one-two days ingame time. Manipulating the words isnt gonna do you much good, that is essentialy what was said. I dont agree with that I think in terms of Eric he would be hurt more by having his character taken away entirely for this than to have to miss out on one-two ingame days.

    I think this is the difference between players who focus on Roleplay and Story, and players who focus on the gameplay itself. I mean, our mechanics took a backseat to roleplay and story quite a while ago. I guess people here would take issue with that, but as I said before. Aslong as my players are having fun I dont have to change anything because of what Anon said.
    Last edited by Nikolaz72; 2012-02-12 at 07:44 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Wait, so people here thinks its better for a paladin to kill someone for almost getting some groupmembers killed 'inhiseyes' than it is just dismissing them. So you say people here prefer having their characters killed to having to miss out on part of the plot for a one-two days ingame time. Manipulating the words isnt gonna do you much good, that is essentialy what was said. I dont agree with that I think in terms of Eric he would be hurt more by having his character taken away entirely for this than to have to miss out on one-two ingame days.
    They really aren't saying that. It is perfectly acceptable for the paladin to dismiss the characters from the party for a few days - but there's no reason to then punish the players in the same way. Multiple solutions were suggested - having the players follow at a distance and saving the group to regain their trust, giving those characters some other little adventure of their own, or even just skipping the travel and going straight to the down! It's in no way being put forward as the dichotomy you're suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    I think this is the difference between players who focus on Roleplay and Story, and players who focus on the gameplay itself. I mean, our mechanics took a backseat to roleplay and story quite a while ago. I guess people here would take issue with that, but as I said before. Aslong as my players are having fun I dont have to change anything because of what Anon said.

    As for the mechanics thing, I don't have too much of an issue with it. The main reason the rules are the way they are is so that disputes can be resolved without breaking down into a contest of wills - if the answer is there, that's just how it is. Of course, give how some of them phrased there's still arguments but they at least make the effort.

    I do freestyle rping with some of my friends and it works perfectly well, most of the time. I think saying that's the problem is missing the point.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Aslong as my players are having fun I dont have to change anything because of what Anon said.
    So you think DED posted this thread in the first place because he thought getting thrown out of the party out-of-game by a obnoxious NPC was FUN? Man, you have some really, really warped ideas of what fun is.

    That fact that he did, you saw this, and Sir Prick is no longer there (and the two people thrown out are back in) means you did change something because of what Anon said, after the player who wasn't having fun tried to talk to you, got shut down, and came to us for help.Congratulations, you have taken the first step on the road of recovery to Good DMing. Further milestones will include not immediately using your new NPC exactly the same as Sir Prick, and making him/her/it a different person, maybe a nicer one; finding the distinction between IC and OOC when it comes to punishments for actions; and eventually, disabusing yourself of the notion that DMing means the power of tyranny and thus having any need to punish anyone at all. When you reach that last step, do come back here, for you will have achieved enlightenment and we will have much to offer you.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Let's go out on a limb, and take a look at some different reasons as to why a player would actually persist through an un-fun campaign:

    Socializing:
    People like to socialize, and can't always socialize with the people they want to, when they want to, and roleplaying games are a nice "excuse" to get some people together and talk, granted this is more applicable to tabletop sessions but there is also an odd kind of companionship attainable through the in-character interactions of players who know one another well.

    Scarcity:
    Roleplaying games, despite being prolific on the interwebs, are generally a lot more decentralized than other forms of group activities, as proven prior in this thread with the subsequent reveal of how many people actually play in Arkensas. People always like to have someone with which they share something in common, and as such with something as seemingly rare as roleplaying, people have a tendency to cling to those they can find who share this interest. And of this number of people, there are generally fewer who are willing to DM, so many people have a tendency to hang onto who they can find.

    Obligation:
    The player is playing with friends, the DM is a person they care about or is in their social periphery, not many people have the desire to alienate themselves from their friends or hurt their feelings by walking out of a session or tell someone that they're not having fun.

    Self-Delusion:
    Now the title of this one is a bit negative, but basically people can convince themselves of the weirdest things, including that they're having fun when they really aren't. Largely this includes people rationalizing that whatever situation isn't that bad, because of such and such thing hasn't happened or been taken away etc.

    I'm rather tired, so there's probably a whole lot I've glossed over, but these were some of the things that would make a person stick to an abusive DM, despite not having any kind of fun at all. Although I'm not saying that it is the case in this very specific instance, here on the Playground, we see a lot of situations where this is truly the case, and as such many are quick to cry "abandon ship" because there isn't anything to gain from such a relationship other than more grief. And many people simply are of the opinion that bad roleplay trumps no roleplay, which doesn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    As long as my players are having fun I don't have to change anything because of what Anon said.
    Except there was an instance of un-fun, it may have been brief but it was there nonetheless. If the players had no problems at all, then this post shouldn't have been here in the first place. People lie, to themselves and to others, through rationalization and/or guilt etc., don't take their word for it, read into their actions, and the particular actions of these events seems like a clear indicator of un-fun taking place. To me at the very least. Nothing earth-shattering, but it definitely something that should be taken note of.

    Stasis is stagnation, if you think that there's nothing you can change to improve your game, then you're dead wrong. I'm not saying you're a bad DM, but there's always room for improvement.

    But in the end, this is supposed to be about having fun so if you're all having fun then there's nothing to worry about. Each to their own. Even if I disagree with your methods as so many others.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    You seem to be using statements that support our arguments yet you think aren't. Things like "I don't control the party, I control someone who controls the party" and "I don't control the players, I control the game, and the players are part of the game".
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    So you think DED posted this thread in the first place because he thought getting thrown out of the party out-of-game by a obnoxious NPC was FUN? Man, you have some really, really warped ideas of what fun is.

    That fact that he did, you saw this, and Sir Prick is no longer there (and the two people thrown out are back in) means you did change something because of what Anon said, after the player who wasn't having fun tried to talk to you, got shut down, and came to us for help.Congratulations, you have taken the first step on the road of recovery to Good DMing. Further milestones will include not immediately using your new NPC exactly the same as Sir Prick, and making him/her/it a different person, maybe a nicer one; finding the distinction between IC and OOC when it comes to punishments for actions; and eventually, disabusing yourself of the notion that DMing means the power of tyranny and thus having any need to punish anyone at all. When you reach that last step, do come back here, for you will have achieved enlightenment and we will have much to offer you.
    Alright, first'o'all. By Anon I mean people here, and I have really cared nothing for their feelings as the only people I care about as of now is the players of my group.

    Second- I stated it was the overall fun, Immersion and all that. Not fun in-the-moment. And as for the paladin murdering the halfling, 'whuuuah?' And as for the halfling travelling a distance behind the party 'She did'.

    Adrian was not replaced by a better Adrian. And its not just one NPC that has joined them its about -three- and the reason we can manage it is because its mainly RP driven and my NPC's have a set initiative from the beginning of the game and we fight in tight corridores so its more JRPG fighting than anything.

    Eric, even if he missed the session. Seems to be doing alright, and so are the others. And as such I do not understand such a great need for concern, for someone to change if they, and those around them. Are satisfied, I do not like for Eric to be compared to a sadistic masochist either O_o. . That is sorta rude.

    No matter how many disagree with my methods, as long as they arent in my game. And as long as Eric doesnt come to me personally saying his really, really. Unhappy with the direction this game is taking, then I shall keep on using my current way of DM'ing. Thank you all for taking your time to advice Eric and I. It is much appreciated, and I will be sure to come back if I ever believe my game has taken a wrong turn, gone down the drain, or need help with setting up a session. 'waves'
    Last edited by Nikolaz72; 2012-02-12 at 11:55 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Aslong as my players are having fun I dont have to change anything because of what Anon said.
    Sure. As long as they are having fun.

    They weren't. As evidenced by two players being really fed up and taking the matter up. Which was then shut down with a "**** your fun, that's my rules" by you.


    You keep insisting that you 'had to do this' or 'it was that, or kill them'. But seriously, what your NPC's do is your choice, exactly like the comment "but that's what my character would do!" is a bad excuse for being an arse. What your NPC's do is your choice, and if that choice isn't centred around making the players have fun, it's a bad choice.

    There's a thousand ways you could have had this paladin act that didn't spoil the fun for your players, but you choose the one that did spoil their fun, as evidenced


    but I cant remove an NPC because players didnt like him, if players dont like an NPC
    Give me one single coherent reason for this, that isn't "because that ruins the finely crafted story i want to tell my players". Just one.

    Yes you can, and yes you should. If the players find that a certain element makes the game significantly less fun - and there isn't a significant long term reason that will improve the fun - you can, and should remove said element*.

    Of course you don't have to listen to us, but there's a reason that so many in here decry your reasoning, because they have a lot of experience, and knows that changing your playstyle would make it a lot more fun for everyone involved.

    But hey, I get to play in two campaigns (one as a ST) where we regularly have open, mature and respectful discussions about how to make the campaigns more satisfactory for everyone involved, the hell do I know about RPG's?



    *Keeping in mind that short-term fun can be sacrificed if the long-term gains are big enough, but doing so should always be a concious choice, and when approached on the matter, it should always be honest - saying "I'm aware that I'm sacrificing short term fun, but trust me a bit on this, it'll be worth it" not "Drop it. Whether you like it or not, I'm in charge of this game."
    Last edited by Uec; 2012-02-12 at 12:16 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Uec View Post
    Sure. As long as they are having fun.

    They weren't. As evidenced by two players being really fed up and taking the matter up. Which was then shut down with a "**** your fun, that's my rules" by you.


    You keep insisting that you 'had to do this' or 'it was that, or kill them'. But seriously, what your NPC's do is your choice, exactly like the comment "but that's what my character would do!" is a bad excuse for being an arse. What your NPC's do is your choice, and if that choice isn't centred around making the players have fun, it's a bad choice.

    There's a thousand ways you could have had this paladin act that didn't spoil the fun for your players, but you choose the one that did spoil their fun, as evidenced




    Give me one single coherent reason for this, that isn't "because that ruins the finely crafted story i want to tell my players". Just one.

    Yes you can, and yes you should. If the players find that a certain element makes the game significantly less fun - and there isn't a significant long term reason that will improve the fun - you can, and should remove said element*.

    Of course you don't have to listen to us, but there's a reason that so many in here decry your reasoning, because they have a lot of experience, and knows that changing your playstyle would make it a lot more fun for everyone involved.

    But hey, I get to play in two campaigns (one as a ST) where we regularly have open, mature and respectful discussions about how to make the campaigns more satisfactory for everyone involved, the hell do I know about RPG's?



    *Keeping in mind that short-term fun can be sacrificed if the long-term gains are big enough, but doing so should always be a concious choice, and when approached on the matter, it should always be honest - saying "I'm aware that I'm sacrificing short term fun, but trust me a bit on this, it'll be worth it" not "Drop it. Whether you like it or not, I'm in charge of this game."
    Sir Prick took some of the fun out of the first session he lead the party, but the game after it was pretty swell(I wasn't there yesterday due to, again, technical difficulties)

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    {{Scrubbed}}
    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2012-02-18 at 12:37 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Nikolaz72, I really think you're missing the point they're actually trying to make as the most important one by getting distracted by the small details. We don't know enough to comment on a lot of the precise details of the story and how it works, only to be somewhat worried.

    What we do know is how you handled this event and that is what people are really concerned about. The way in which you handled it clearly did cause consternation - and rightly so. They are saying that statements such as 'It's my story, deal with it' and 'He'll be around for however long I want' are not helpful to the situation. They are dismissive and authoritarian which is not a good way to deal with a group of people.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Nikolaz72, I really think you're missing the point they're actually trying to make as the most important one by getting distracted by the small details. We don't know enough to comment on a lot of the precise details of the story and how it works, only to be somewhat worried.

    What we do know is how you handled this event and that is what people are really concerned about. The way in which you handled it clearly did cause consternation - and rightly so. They are saying that statements such as 'It's my story, deal with it' and 'He'll be around for however long I want' are not helpful to the situation. They are dismissive and authoritarian which is not a good way to deal with a group of people.
    Some -different- points were made, im gonna go out on a limb here and say you mean those that could resemble a reasonable piece of advice. Im gonna say that yea, when I came here I was dismissive. And when I first talked to Eric the same night I was angry with him, and therefor those answers were dismissive aswell. In the time after we talked it out, but that doesnt mean I had much patience with people on this forum as what I got was a very cold welcome, understandable if I am an evil dictator in their eyes, but not the most civilized way to greet someone regardless.

    As for a good way to deal with a group of people, we are talking about dealing with one person. Eric. And he was concerned that Adrian would stick around for long, but he also does not like spoilers and therefor for his own sake I did not want to comment on the matter. Beyond that he would stick along as long as I saw fit which is, well. The truth. And I dunno about other people here but it seems the main piece of advise which wasnt -scrap the character- was merely, -revise your statement to something else that means the same but sounds better-. But I believe my statement at the time was perfectly honest, if a little misleading. Although as the issue is now put behind us I find it but a little frustrating to still have to argue with people who dismiss my thoughts because I am an -evil authoritarian dictator- I would like to consider my game as one that is run on a railroad build by players, it is generally agreed upon in our group that the DM should be able to plan further ahead than 10 minutes and as such I (Ultimately) have the reigns of where the game goes, I decide where it goes based on what players we have in the group and till now it seems people have not been against it (Youknow, apart the people on this forum). Its hard for you to say that everyone here is arguing the same thing though, but im gonna say that I disagree when you say that people were just concerned, not everyone were just -concerned-
    Last edited by Nikolaz72; 2012-02-12 at 03:42 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    You dont understand, his question was (How long is this guy gonna stick around) Its a direct question that can only be answered or not answered,
    Or you could have probed into the real reasons for his question, and gave him the assurance he was looking for.

    if i go around saying -Oh I guess you didnt like him, I'll do something about it next session- Ofcourse he will know the person is for some reason going away next session. The paladin himself isnt a storyarc, and he was a minor character. He stuck with them for -one- session. And I still dont see the big deal on Eric's side, he told me not to spoil anything in the game for him and as such I cannot inform him of when NPC's will come or go. And which NPC's will come and go.
    You don't have to spoil the plot. But if a player fears he's going to stay forever, and that will make him retire his character or leave the game, then "He's staying for as long as I want. Deal with it." might be spoiling a lot more than the plot.

    How hard is it to say: "Don't worry, the paladin won't stay for long." or perhaps: "Don't leave or retire your character because of the paladin. He's really not going to be that big a deal. Your current character is fine for this campaign."

    You have an extremely black and white view on communication. Answers don't always have to be yes or no. Instead of a short-sighted direct answer, you can also decide to give a real, meaningful response to the issue underlying the question. Communicate!

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by mcv View Post
    Or you could have probed into the real reasons for his question, and gave him the assurance he was looking for.


    You don't have to spoil the plot. But if a player fears he's going to stay forever, and that will make him retire his character or leave the game, then "He's staying for as long as I want. Deal with it." might be spoiling a lot more than the plot.

    How hard is it to say: "Don't worry, the paladin won't stay for long." or perhaps: "Don't leave or retire your character because of the paladin. He's really not going to be that big a deal. Your current character is fine for this campaign."

    You have an extremely black and white view on communication. Answers don't always have to be yes or no. Instead of a short-sighted direct answer, you can also decide to give a real, meaningful response to the issue underlying the question. Communicate!
    And you misuse the word -extreme- The paladin will stick around for long, although being a part of the game odesnt mean a part of the party, he is gonna be a big deal, although not for the next many sessions. I never gave him the picture that he should leave the campaign and he never wanted to leave and as such I didnt have to convince him not to leave? Im generally confident in my players ability to read what I have planned for the next 10 minutes and whenever -I gotta go- means an AFK or Logging Off. Its not that I know the players closely, but again. We do talk outside the sessions, sometimes on a daily basis. And as such there is a little more to it than just the weekly game. I gave a longer more complex answer the next day when Eric asked me not to spoil the plot so there you have it? I guess I dont need to post our lengthy skype-conversation here although it might shut up a few people. Who still misunderstand the situation.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    First of all, dont take that tone with me. (And expect for me to reply in a more gentlemanly manner)
    I'm going to share with you a bit of advice. Saying things like this right here is even worse than what you were replying to and shows poorly on you.

    Especially since you seem to actually think you have a chance of convincing the thread to change the negative-leaning opinion of yourself that you've managed to generate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Second of all, it was -one- player who brought this up. You can only take his word for how hurt the other player was, the other player comming the day after and apologizing for his behavior.
    If we can't trust his word because he's only one person, then we cannot trust your word as you are only one person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Third- You only know how I responded on this forum, I had a lengthy chat with him over a private-chat about this and you know what? You can take your experience and shove it up where the sun dont bloody shine because in terms of others games it can just aswell count for naught,
    See, that right here? That's just a bad attitude. You're not some special snowflake who is exempt from any and all general good practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    I do not need to hear about your experiences.
    If you're new to DMing, lord knows you don't have any experiences to really draw upon for yourself, so in general, yes, you could stand to benefit from the experience and wisdom of others.

    Rejecting the idea out of hand is a bad sign that reflects poorly upon your character and ability to learn to do the job or accept peer feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    -Nobody objected OOCly, and majority didnt object ICly-
    Oh, yes, cowing the party with a sudden blindsidedly rude thing is a great way to gauge whether something is a good idea. Please, try to come up with something a bit more convincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    One guy went onto this forum to look for advice
    Yeah, the fact that he didn't feel able to just talk to you about it? Bad sign of how approachable you are and how reasonable you seemed about it to begin with.

    The fact that he went for help and advice? Not something you should dismiss as lightly as you are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    geeks
    Right. If you're going to call people geeks for playing the game then you are calling yourself a geek for playing the game. And there's no sense in insulting people for something that you do yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    There are different ways to do things and as such, if I do something so differently that you cannot comprehend it, your experience in terms of what im doing, is around little to nothing at all.
    If you're doing something that is outside the bounds of good taste in the eyes of a wide variety of people who come from all walks of life and have seen a great variety of games, well, that right there is a consensus.

    It is not the message that "I'm different, so of course no one can relate to me" that you seem to be taking away from this.
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188 View Post
    I was wondering if you guys considered following the Paladins group from a distance and helping them in way's they might not notice and saving their bacon one time to get back into the mix, prove your worth, and hopefully take the high and mighty out of Sir Prick.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkEricDraven View Post
    Yeah, I asked, DM said no.
    I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, though I intend to, but this is unacceptable behavior for a DM. You don't need to ask the DM if you can make a choice about what you want your character to do. Further, the DM does not have the right to tell you what your character can or cannot do like that. It's 100% your choice if you wanted to have your characters follow the party around.

    Now, since it's a skype game, that makes it much harder to do private actions between different players, or to split the group and play out different scenarios in different locations. Unfortunately, this essentially means that by kicking you out of the party he's kicked you out of the game. Which is completely uncalled for. If he was going to lead the PCs around with a Lawful Stupid DMPC he should have asked the players before the game started if that was okay, and then if they agreed he should have told the players to create characters that would work well under the leadership of a Lawful Stupid DMPC.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Beyond that he would stick along as long as I saw fit which is, well. The truth.
    This is where the other problem lies that people are trying to point out, other than communication skills which as a DM you should probably consider vital.

    If a player is really not enjoying something as important as the NPC who's leading the party and has no reason to think he's going away, which he definitely didn't, then it is a problem.

    Note: the next section assume you had planned to keep the paladin around. Statements like 'he'll be leading the party for a while. Deal with it' indicate that he would be - either make it clear that it won't be very long without telling him exactly when, or just say that since it's such a big problem you'll find a way to deal with it. It's not lying - you'll deal with it exactly as planned by having him lead next session but it spoils nothing.

    If you want him to stay, there are a thousand ways to deal with this which are constructive and which will get players to react positively. Since the problem is the character and not that he's the leader - have him get called away and have a different paladin take over. Have him get called away and leave instructions with the party leaders, or some way to communicate with them. Any variation on this is fine.

    Hell, you control the NPC - consider what attributes were so offensive to the player and just change them. Say the Paladin was having a bad day, have him apologise for his behaviour and continue the campaign changing no other thing.

    Since D&D is a co-operative medium, which you acknowledge, all of these options are more team friendly than dismissed concerns.

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    What I have learned is that players will make the game. As a GM you are the narrator. It is your job to catalog the player's adventure, not to run it. Sure, as the DM is is technically your game, but the players make it fun.

    Example: In a Pokemon Tabletop game I am running (yes, laugh all you want), I gave them two baby Pokemon that happened to be sibilings. One made a run for it and ran towards the most injured character in the party. I had expected that they would attempt to catch it in my foolish GM mind. What did they actually do? She turned it into a crisp with her Pokemon. Unexpected? Yes. Not what I wanted? Yes. Does it make a hell of a lot better of a story? Yes.

    It will be the crazy things the players do that they remember. Instead of them saying, "Remember when we recruited the crazy Centaur? Ya, that was fun," they'll be saying "Hey, remember when that prick of a Paladin stopped us from recruiting that Centaur? That sucked."
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    I know this type of person from personal experience. I used to work for one, and it did not end well.

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    - This type of person discounts the opinions of others, because he/she believes himself/herself to be much better at knowing other people's opinions (and what's good for them) than those other people do themselves.

    - If someone disagrees with him/her, he/she believes that this person simply does not comprehend the his/her brilliant vision.

    - People who will persist in disagreeing with him/her, are perceived as destructive forces who actively seek to harm or discredit him/her.

    - This type of person tends to be preoccupied with status.

    - He/she considers himself/herself an authority on absolutely everything. (e.g. "I don't need to listen to the doctor's advice, because I know my own body a lot better.") It's one-way communication, all sending and no receiving.

    - He/she seeks to surround himself/herself with yes-men, who look up to him/her and agree with everything he/she says. If any of these followers stop agreeing, he/she considers them "a disappointment", and tends to cut off contact with them.

    - The more you try to convince such a person of anything, the less likely this person is to take the advice. Because being convinced by someone else runs counter to their own self-image as someone who always knows best.

    - He/she believes he/she never makes mistakes. If something goes wrong, it's always someone else's fault. This person will NEVER admit being wrong about anything.

    - Despite all these negative traits, such a person usually has above-average charisma and social skills, and is quite capable of attracting people to his/her vision.


    This is the narcissist.

    Narcissists tend to like the DM role for all the wrong reason: telling players what to believe, what the world looks like, and how to behave in the world they made up. With the sincere belief that those players want nothing more than to have their creative freedom replaced by the creative freedom of the narcissist.
    The typical warning sign that someone is a narcissist is them asking you to come up with something (a thought, idea or opinion), where the only correct answer will be the thing that they already thought of for you, without any valid alternatives. Clues are not provided, because they believe they know how your mind should work better than you do. If you fail to come up with that specific pre-generated idea, they will be disappointed in you.
    For a DM, this is not just railroading, but dictating how players should play their characters, and telling players what to like.

    My reason for starting this rant is that any further attempts to convince this DM that he did not handle the situation perfectly, will be fruitless. Because once he decided that we are all rude-people-who-are-wrong, there is no possibility to change his mind. Because he never second-guesses his own judgments (except to confirm them), so in his mind there is no way that rude-people-who-are-wrong can ever be right.
    Last edited by Jornophelanthas; 2012-02-12 at 06:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Anyway, dictatorial DM? I think it was sort of part-the-story. The NPC might only have controlled the group for one-session. But if a player screwed up in a way that the NPC would have thrown him out in one-session. The player would have to take the consequences.
    You're not a dictatorial DM because of anything your NPC did or was (even if he was a prick who your players hated).

    The bit you don't seem to get is that part I've bolded: you're punishing players for the actions of their characters.

    That's wrong. It's something we can be objective about, because it doesn't matter what was happening in the game: you decided that a character's actions deserved consequences (which is your job as DM).

    But then you decided that those consequences should fall on the player (you made him miss a game).

    It's not appropriate. It's the D&D equivalent of taking your ball and going home because the other team are winning.

    You stopped somebody else playing as a punishment for something his character did in-game.

    If you can't see that this is just flat wrong, you're not just a bad DM, you're a bad gamer.

    You just don't get to punish your players in real life - that's not what being a DM means. You aren't their Dad!

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    That is a completely facetious and unhelpful comparison between two completely different reactions. Having two Cs in my name is something passive - certainly when you see it you could take offence but it's much more rational to assume that I just have them in my name and happened to post on the forum by coincidence.

    The person who posted this thread was an active party in posting something negative about the GM. There is no way of confusing his intent - he definitely was posting about a specific individual and situation that he wanted advice on how to deal with and that he disliked. Certain people are sensitive to such actions and are not wrong to be so, even if they can't be identified. Taking such a dismissive attitude in no way aids to resolve the situation and is basically counterproductive in every way.
    Quite deliberately so, and meant to be thoroughly dismissive of the possibility that Nik has a right to be offended, much less that we ought to respect that he (she?) is offended because a player in his game asked for advice on a forum and he doesn't like what we're saying. DED really didn't say anything terribly negative about the GM or the game. We, the other posters, did (I do believe I was one of the ones who said "Bail out now", and if I didn't I am now).
    Would you prefer the example that I could claim his arrogance in dismissing our concerns and experiences as being intrinsically without worth because they disagree with what he has to say offends me? It doesn't, 'cause I'm honestly really hard to offend, but it's still pretty batty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    ...Arent scholars of everything right and wrong. There are different ways to do things and as such, if I do something so differently that you cannot comprehend it, your experience in terms of what im doing, is around little to nothing at all.
    Clearly you haven't seen an alignment discussion thread here.
    Hombre, you're pretty damn arrogant. Comically so. I comprehend just fine what you're doing. It's not so different from my experience as you might think. I have actual real-world experience, you see, and you rather remind me of a sergeant major I've had the joy of working under. My dad's boss, too (they refer to him as Him, as speaking his name invites the evils of his attention). They're both of the mindset of "I am always right and can do no wrong." You can't seem to admit the possibility that you handled the player's reaction to this paladin spectacularly poorly, and that's what has me concerned.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    This is where the other problem lies that people are trying to point out, other than communication skills which as a DM you should probably consider vital.

    If a player is really not enjoying something as important as the NPC who's leading the party and has no reason to think he's going away, which he definitely didn't, then it is a problem.

    Note: the next section assume you had planned to keep the paladin around. Statements like 'he'll be leading the party for a while. Deal with it' indicate that he would be - either make it clear that it won't be very long without telling him exactly when, or just say that since it's such a big problem you'll find a way to deal with it. It's not lying - you'll deal with it exactly as planned by having him lead next session but it spoils nothing.

    If you want him to stay, there are a thousand ways to deal with this which are constructive and which will get players to react positively. Since the problem is the character and not that he's the leader - have him get called away and have a different paladin take over. Have him get called away and leave instructions with the party leaders, or some way to communicate with them. Any variation on this is fine.

    Hell, you control the NPC - consider what attributes were so offensive to the player and just change them. Say the Paladin was having a bad day, have him apologise for his behaviour and continue the campaign changing no other thing.

    Since D&D is a co-operative medium, which you acknowledge, all of these options are more team friendly than dismissed concerns.
    I think its hard following your advice as, well.. Its already been done, most of it anyway. As I explained before I've been generally dismissive on this forum but as Eric (Although he tends to keep his posts quite short)can tell you I've had several lenghty chats with him over skype and I generally do talk to my players a lot, I feel as if this thread has outlived its purpose though, a moderator tried to explain that threads here live long past its date but when people go and read the first page and then reply based on what happened 3 weeks ago this could go on forever, on five different notes.

    To that other person that replied to my post, heres the thing. If a person edits a post within the first 5 minutes of posting, and you reply over an hour afterwards. Going out of the way to change the content back to what it was before editing is almost as bad as changing the content to something that was never there. As such you do not really warrant a reply as its general bad forum conduct.

    To the guy in the black-helmet-thing. I have admitted my actions with the paladin was wrong and changed my behavior the day afterwards by having a lenghty chat with Eric over skype, discussing what he wanted from the game and how the paladin was gonna work. Which caused Eric to post in this very thread that he is now satisfied with the game. So theres that, but you can choose to ignore that.

    To the brassdragon: Theese are two people in the group we are talking about, if the whole group was evil well, I might have considered letting them recruit the centaur. But the neutral option here was not going along with they wanted, it was going along with what the majority wanted and 5 people in the group did not want a centaur who were trying to kill half the group travelling with them.

    To the rest of you, you are replying to a 3week-month old topic on an issue that has long been resolved, this thread has derailed and is about something else entirely, if you wish to partake with anything meaningfull do read the last page or so.

    "This is the narcissist."

    Youknow, I dont really think this warrants much of a reply. That was a smirky insult disguised as advice. You cannot just insult someone then take a step back and give them advice, in the same was as you cant insult someone and then give them a hug, its wierd. And if somebody doesnt take your advice after insulting them, you should probably consider not insulting them.

    : Reason im still here.

    Youknow, I sorta wondered about that myself. I guess its because I lurked the forum and used it as inspiration for the campaign in the first place, and because I would have liked to come here for advice in the future.

    By now most o my players are just telling me to bail the thread as replying to it for three weeks, while having changed something in the minds of some. Only serves for the thing to get resurfaced and people to post based on the first page or so, on an issue that has far ago turned into something different.

    As I stated before, Eric might have had a complaint. But had he known the topic would turn into this he wouldnt have created it in the first place, so as of now you have nothing to defend. Infact you are attacking a person, the second you realize that we might get a proper arguement going on. You arent arguing for Eric anymore, if anything I believe I am. Or he will argue for himself. He is satisfied with the game as it is, so are my five-six other players. And therefor I see no reason for them to bail and you have yet to really give them much of a reason either. I take back what I said about experience, ofcourse I will accept advice, but I usually dont do it from people either treatin' me like something to be looked down upon. Or someone insulting me. Which a lot of people here just seem to outright expect.

    "You're an evil fascist authoritarian dictator, here take this friendly advice"

    That sentence. . . doesnt really work. I cannot explain why but it doesnt. I mean if you really 'thought' that someone was a narcissist who cannot ever be swayed by anyone, or Stalin-reincarnate. Would you even 'try' to give him advice on his DnD game? really? And if not then 'do' drop the insults. If anything keep them inside your head it makes everything seem a tad bit more civil. If you gotta insult anyone just insult yourself and get it over with, that way it doesnt have to be directed at anyone.

    Still, nobody's really gonna be impressed with a nerd being able to argue on for a small month about something, I mean other. Lesser debates has gone on for years before.

    Quote Originally Posted by busterswd View Post
    The thing that makes me keep opening this thread isn't the original issue, but your (entertaining for the wrong reason) responses, Nik, and at this point it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to imagine the person writing your responses having a drastic knee jerk at the slightest hint of a threat to authority.
    Do try to conjure up something that is slightly helpful, like say. Explaining things that might not be obvious at first to everyone instead of putting it into shortened sentences as if expecting everyone to understand. Infact, im gonna go as far as to say you ignored more posts in this thread than I have, and you dont have half the reason I do.
    Last edited by Nikolaz72; 2012-02-13 at 12:48 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    The thing that makes me keep opening this thread isn't the original issue, but your (entertaining for the wrong reason) responses, Nik, and at this point it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to imagine the person writing your responses having a drastic knee jerk at the slightest hint of a threat to authority.

    If you and your group are happy, keep on trucking the way you've been DMing. No sarcasm. At some point, though, you'll probably find people less tolerant than those you're dealing with, and that may be the point for introspection.

    I've read through all of your posts as well as the responses. Unfortunately, there's so much inflammatory material in there and so little worth discussing civilly that anything lengthier than a metaphorical pat on the head accompanied by a "good luck" is difficult to write.

    If your group is hard enough up on a DM to need you for a session, more power to you. Unfortunately you're basically showing in spades good justification for the pages of people screaming "Find a new DM!"
    Last edited by busterswd; 2012-02-13 at 01:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Still, nobody's really gonna be impressed with a nerd being able to argue on for a small month about something, I mean other. Lesser debates has gone on for years before.
    Why, exactly, are you trying to use nerd as an insult when you're talking about your peers and fellows and so the accusation would fall back upon yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    Infact, im gonna go as far as to say you ignored more posts in this thread than I have, and you dont have half the reason I do.
    You have no reason to ignore posts in this thread save for a desire to avoid looking into the mirror and considering the veracity of what has been said, and, indeed, every reason to pay as much attention as you can and learn from this experience rather than repeatedly say that you're just fine the way you are while this thread looks you in the eye and replies "on the contrary..."
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Why, exactly, are you trying to use nerd as an insult when you're talking about your peers and fellows and so the accusation would fall back upon yourself?



    You have no reason to ignore posts in this thread save for a desire to avoid looking into the mirror and considering the veracity of what has been said, and, indeed, every reason to pay as much attention as you can and learn from this experience rather than repeatedly say that you're just fine the way you are while this thread looks you in the eye and replies "on the contrary..."
    1: Who said it was directed at others? That one was about myself.

    2: Yes, I will ignore insults. Just as any sensible person should as those who use insults are petty human beings. As I said before, aslong as my players find nothing wrong with me why should I care what you (The posts im ignoring) are saying if there is so much inflammatory material in there and so little worth discussing civilly.

    I've taken advice from several posts in this thread, and a dozen posts on this forum. But certain posts, like 'yours' are not worth the consideration. As you are merely running a repeat arguement and bending my posts as you see fit. Like say, your previous posts. Or the first two sentences of this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by busterswd View Post
    If your group is hard enough up on a DM to need you for a session, more power to you. Unfortunately you're basically showing in spades good justification for the pages of people screaming "Find a new DM!"
    No, for pages people have been misinterpreting my posts and replying to what they saw in said posts /although its not like expecting anything more is reasonable/ and then building on that arguement since page-one /ignoring the opinions of the people actually in the roleplay/. My attempts to mend the situation only serving to give them more posts to bend and use the bended posts to strengthen their aruement. But youknow, we started with -everyone- telling him to get a new DM. And now its only -some-. I think thats a vast improvement whenever you like to recognize it or not.
    Last edited by Nikolaz72; 2012-02-13 at 03:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    2: Yes, I will ignore insults. Just as any sensible person should as those who use insults are petty human beings. As I said before, aslong as my players find nothing wrong with me why should I care what you (The posts im ignoring) are saying if there is so much inflammatory material in there and so little worth discussing civilly.
    Insults and criticism are not synonymous, particularly when the criticism is aimed at an action and the insults towards a person. Moreover, there is a difference between a civil discussion and an echo chamber, and it centers primarily around civil discussions actually including criticism of ideas and actions.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Quite deliberately so, and meant to be thoroughly dismissive of the possibility that Nik has a right to be offended, much less that we ought to respect that he (she?) is offended because a player in his game asked for advice on a forum and he doesn't like what we're saying. DED really didn't say anything terribly negative about the GM or the game. We, the other posters, did (I do believe I was one of the ones who said "Bail out now", and if I didn't I am now).
    Would you prefer the example that I could claim his arrogance in dismissing our concerns and experiences as being intrinsically without worth because they disagree with what he has to say offends me? It doesn't, 'cause I'm honestly really hard to offend, but it's still pretty batty.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, their (to avoid any gendered pronouns) dismissal of advice offered in a friendly way and even that offered in a not so friendly way is pretty arrogant. I'm not in favour of the DM on that point.

    I don't think that the problem, at least as stated, is that the advice received was negative towards the DM but that the problem was posted here at all, in a public forum. I actually do believe them when they say they dislike that and I do think that isn't unreasonable, though it's also not unreasonable for DED to seek advice from a large group of experience players. It's just a ground on which to make it seem like you're not just saying I'm right you're wrong neener neener neener, which does make negotiation easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Clearly you haven't seen an alignment discussion thread here.
    Just lol.

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong, their (to avoid any gendered pronouns) dismissal of advice offered in a friendly way and even that offered in a not so friendly way--
    Understatement of the year, advice delivered in a hostile-way should expect to be dismissed. Advice given in a friendly manner I have taken to heart. But people should not expect someone to be arrogant just because he doesnt change his position completely based on a small group of people on a single forum, who while having experience. Have very likeminded opinions which is probably the reason they are gathered on the same forum to begin with.

    If we had to divide it into 4 equal group its something like this.

    Friendly Advice (25%)
    Slightly Less Friendly Advice (25%)
    Unfriendly Advice (25%)
    Insult then Advice (25%) (Amongst theese those who dont give advice at all)

    Its easy for the first group to be drowned by the others, and its unlikely that the friendly group is even that large, that is sort of the benefit of the doubt for those who were neutral.
    Last edited by Nikolaz72; 2012-02-13 at 03:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaz72 View Post
    "This is the narcissist."

    Youknow, I dont really think this warrants much of a reply. That was a smirky insult disguised as advice. You cannot just insult someone then take a step back and give them advice, in the same was as you cant insult someone and then give them a hug, its wierd. And if somebody doesnt take your advice after insulting them, you should probably consider not insulting them.
    @Nikolaz72:
    This advice was not directed at you, but at the rest of the thread, so I don't expect you to take it. My point to the other posters: It's useless to continue this argument, because nobody will convince anyone of anything. In this, I actually agree with you. It's not meant to insult you, but to dismiss the entire discussion you (and others) keep continuing.

    @The rest:
    I believe that the main reason Nikolaz72 keeps coming back is to try to change our minds about him, to convince us that it is our fault for deliberately misunderstanding his (flawless) DM-ing vision, and possibly even to wring a collective apology out of this forum. He is turning this thread into a discussion about him, instead of DarkEricDraven's concerns or even his DM-ing style.

    @DarkEricDraven:
    If you say that the problems have been solved, and you are now enjoying yourself, there is no reason to stop playing in the group. Personally, I would not play with him, but that's in no way an advice for others to do the same.
    However, be aware that different people have different styles, so the way Nikolaz72 is playing D&D is not the only way (or even necessarily the best way) people can (and do) play D&D. Perhaps you will like other styles, too, if and when you get around to roleplay with other people. Keep an open mind.

    ---

    This is where I get out of this discussion.
    Last edited by Jornophelanthas; 2012-02-13 at 06:48 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Jornophelanthas View Post
    @Nikolaz72:
    This advice was not directed at you, but at the rest of the thread, so I don't expect you to take it. My point to the other posters: It's useless to continue this argument, because nobody will convince anyone of anything. In this, I actually agree with you. It's not meant to insult you, but to dismiss the entire discussion you (and others) keep continuing.

    @The rest:
    I believe that the main reason Nikolaz72 keeps coming back is to try to change our minds about him, to convince us that it is our fault for deliberately misunderstanding his (flawless) DM-ing vision, and possibly even to wring a collective apology out of this forum. He is turning this thread into a discussion about him, instead of DarkEricDraven's concerns or even his DM-ing style.

    @DarkEricDraven:
    If you say that the problems have been solved, and you are now enjoying yourself, there is no reason to stop playing in the group. Personally, I would not play with him, but that's in no way an advice for others to do the same.
    However, be aware that different people have different styles, so the way Nikolaz72 is playing D&D is not the only way (or even necessarily the best way) people can (and do) play D&D. Perhaps you will like other styles, too, if and when you get around to roleplay with other people. Keep an open mind.

    ---

    This is where I get out of this discussion.
    "(flawless) DM-ing vision" Youknow, the one I tried to argue that people here didnt have, I am saying that I should be able to use another method not because it was flawless but simply because it works, and I wouldnt change it completely just because others saw flaws with it.

    "Nikolaz72 is playing D&D is not the only way" Because that is what he has been arguing all along. Actually I had been arguing the opposite but as of now I should just get used to people changing my posts into something else.

    Overall I wrote my reason for comming back here, and you know what? You're wrong. Its to convince people that im not a bad person, its because I hate random people on the internet disliking me. Its not because my method of DMing is flawless (Im changing it as I go along, but im not gonna change it on command. And people's 'opinions' and 'suggestions' here are more a 'my way or the highway' than a friendly suggestion or optimistic advice) its simply because I dont want people to see me as a bad person for using another type of DMing. It seems the one who is trying to make me surrender all my opinions and write an apology is them, not I. Because anything less than changing my stance completely would in their eyes be wrong.

    Overall: Like a lot of people here you are merely changing what I said to support your arguement, I really dont know what else to say as you abandoned the thread, wish I could do the same really.
    Last edited by Nikolaz72; 2012-02-13 at 07:13 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: Getting kicked out of the party

    But nobody would have known who you were if you hadn't posted here, you would have just been "that GM."
    Props to Ceika for the new and improved avatar!

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