Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Savannah]

Hey, I was just looking at the first post and noted that your link to the MitD thread is outdated. The most recent thread is here.

[Flame of Anor]

The link for Tarquin's dagger is borked. Also, are we sure Belkar got his ring of jumping back?

[Frog Dragon]

So, Roy being faster than Durkon is held as evidence that he is wearing medium armor? But medium armor reduces your speed to 20ft, same as heavy armor, and that would be Durkon's speed, even in heavy armor. Am I missing something here?

[Douglas]

So, Roy being faster than Durkon is held as evidence that he is wearing medium armor? But medium armor reduces your speed to 20ft, same as heavy armor, and that would be Durkon's speed, even in heavy armor. Am I missing something here?

Heavy armor also reduces the run speed multiplier. The strip used as evidence has everyone running, and in that case Durkon in heavy armor would only be able to run 60 feet per round (triple speed) but someone in medium armor would be able to run 80 feet per round (quadruple speed).

[Frog Dragon]

Heavy armor also reduces the run speed multiplier. The strip used as evidence has everyone running, and in that case Durkon in heavy armor would only be able to run 60 feet per round (triple speed) but someone in medium armor would be able to run 80 feet per round (quadruple speed).

Oh. That explains it then.

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkon has Extend Spell and V has Greater Dispel Magic.

[Yuki Akuma]

So. Durkon has Extend Spell.

Yes that's all I have to contribute. *sneaks away*

[Dark Matter]

The link for Tarquin's dagger is borked. Also, are we sure Belkar got his ring of jumping back?

Belkar and Haley were the first to loot Roy's corpse (there's no evidence to suggest MitD did). After that... he presumably lost it to Tarquin's thugs and then got it back when Tarquin and/or Haley gave Roy+Belkar their gear back.

[EmperorSarda]

Why is Durkon's age listed at "55+"? At most two weeks have passed since that strip, so why not just set it to 55?

Also RMS, As Kurald seems to agree and I have not heard any dissent, can we list Thog's Barbarian level to be at least 4, for the two thrown rock attacks in 803?

[Flame of Anor]

Also RMS, As Kurald seems to agree and I have not heard any dissent, can we list Thog's Barbarian level to be at least 4, for the two thrown rock attacks in 803?

Wait, there isn't any way we can peg Thog as over 6th level? He's obviously much higher. I'm not suggesting that "obviously much higher" is enough evidence to put on the character sheet, but you'd think there would be some proof of it.

[Math_Mage]

Wait, there isn't any way we can peg Thog as over 6th level? He's obviously much higher. I'm not suggesting that "obviously much higher" is enough evidence to put on the character sheet, but you'd think there would be some proof of it.

Well, do the three attacks here provide sufficient evidence that Thog is at least 11th level?

[Flame of Anor]

Well, do the three attacks here provide sufficient evidence that Thog is at least 11th level?

That's a good point! Even though they're not in the same panel, as full attacks usually are, Haley surely would have moved away if she had had a turn.

[John Cribati]

Well, do the three attacks here provide sufficient evidence that Thog is at least 11th level?

A single panel represents a round in time at the most; that's why I'm okay with using attacks from the same panel to determine BAB. I wouldn't count this as a round.

[Flame of Anor]

A single panel represents a round in time at the most; that's why I'm okay with using attacks from the same panel to determine BAB. I wouldn't count this as a round.

How do you explain Haley just standing there giving up her actions for two rounds in that case? Does she just love to be clobbered with a door?

[John Cribati]

How do you explain Haley just standing there giving up her actions for two rounds in that case? Does she just love to be clobbered with a door?

It's kind of like characters getting a dizzy look after being energy drained; nothing in the rules say that Energy Draining causes a dazed/confused/whatever effect. Rich just reasons that, "hey, this guy just got his life force sapped by dark energy; that'd probably make him a bit out of it." Haley was hit with a door.

[Gift Jeraff]

How do you explain Haley just standing there giving up her actions for two rounds in that case? Does she just love to be clobbered with a door?

Elan also loves watching Haley get hurt, despite knowing a single standard action illusion could incapacitate Thog.

[Flame of Anor]

Elan also loves watching Haley get hurt, despite knowing a single standard action illusion could incapacitate Thog.

He likes it so much that he doesn't even bother to move his upraised arm, sword hand, or eyebrows over the course of two rounds.

[EmperorSarda]

I vote that it is one round, cause if that were three rounds (18 seconds), not even Elan would, just stand and watch. Unlike knife stabs or sword slashes which can be shown as many "stab" captions, this does go for the more story and artistic route to show those three full attacks separately.

So I say label him as Fighter level 2, Barbarian > 9.

[Psyren]

A single panel represents a round in time at the most;

Do you have a source for this statement?
It seems to me that Thog's door barrage was split across multiple panels for dramatic effect, not because he took three rounds to clobber her while Elan looked on.

[Flame of Anor]

A single panel represents a round in time at the most; that's why I'm okay with using attacks from the same panel to determine BAB. I wouldn't count this as a round.

Do you have a source for this statement?
It seems to me that Thog's door barrage was split across multiple panels for dramatic effect, not because he took three rounds to clobber her while Elan looked on.

Here's one problem with the argument that this shouldn't count as evidence for Thog's level: I'll admit Herpestidae's characterization of a panel as "at most one round" does justify "using attacks from the same panel to determine BAB". However, even if we accept that premise, it doesn't at all contradict the theory that Thog's attacks are all in one round--if a panel is at most one round, then it may be less than a round, which is to say there can be a round spread over 3 panels, like we're saying. The only way it would contradict our theory is if a panel were at least one round.

[Math_Mage]

A single panel represents a round in time at the most; that's why I'm okay with using attacks from the same panel to determine BAB. I wouldn't count this as a round.

To formalize the counterarguments to your objection:
-Were it more than one round, Haley would have to be considered too dazed and confused to move away;
-Were it more than one round, Elan would have to be considered too surprised to stop Thog;
-Were it more than one round, Thog would have to either be below level 6, or not taking a full attack action in one or more rounds for no particular reason.

Any one of these counterarguments would be strong evidence supporting my statement that Thog took one round; together, I feel they are irrefutable.

As such, I would like to formally request that Thog be listed as Fighter 2/Barbarian 9+ based on this strip. (relinked for convenience)

[Kurald Galain]

Durkon should have Control Winds added to his spells or part of the "Thor" domain.

Added.

Durkon has Extend Spell and V has Greater Dispel Magic.

Also added.

If we are using SSDT for character stats, does that mean we can list Vaarsuvius's Con score as 9 or less

That's a good point. However, I'm not sure whether that con score applies to Vaarsuvius himself, or to that character played by Vaarsuvius during Haley's story.

The link for Tarquin's dagger is borked. Also, are we sure Belkar got his ring of jumping back?

As I recall, we inferred it from the scene where he jumps at the vulture, and that it's very much in character for Belkar to immediately grab his item back from the corpse.

Why is Durkon's age listed at "55+"? At most two weeks have passed since that strip, so why not just set it to 55?

Because we routinely add a + to any number that has no known upper bound. Otherwise, we'd have to arbitrarily decide on a number of weeks to elapse before putting back the same + sign anyway.

To formalize the counterarguments to your objection:

I'll just point out that using the words "formally request" won't magically cause people to agree with you

Let's just have some more discussion on Thog. The point about comic 396 was brought up just a few hours ago, and there's no need to rush anything. Thog has also been in numerous other fights that could be used for supporting evidence.

[Shale]

Guys, "at most" means a single round may still be split between multiple panels. It just means multiple rounds wouldn't be crammed into the same panel, which I think is a reasonable assumption.

[Psyren]

Guys, "at most" means a single round may still be split between multiple panels. It just means multiple rounds wouldn't be crammed into the same panel, which I think is a reasonable assumption.

It's also a false one.

EDIT: as far as Thog is concerned, I'm with Math Mage - he has enough BAB for at least three attacks. "thog elegant in thog's simplicity."

[zimmerwald1915]

It's also a false one.

Are you claiming that Redcloak was engaged in combat while walking up stairs alone? Or that time in the strip is always measured in combat rounds whether characters are engaged in combat or not? Because the strip you linked can be explained by time not being measured in combat rounds when no combat is taking place as easily as it can be explained by not restricting panels to representing at most one round of combat.

[Psyren]

Are you claiming that Redcloak was engaged in combat while walking up stairs alone? Or that time in the strip is always measured in combat rounds whether characters are engaged in combat or not? Because the strip you linked can be explained by time not being measured in combat rounds when no combat is taking place as easily as it can be explained by not restricting panels to representing at most one round of combat.

Whether he's in combat or not is frankly irrelevant. There's more than one round of actions in that panel, end of.

But if you really want a combat example: "Teleport!" "This room is dimensionally locked." "Shout!" "Counterspell."

[SinsI]

How do you explain Haley just standing there giving up her actions for two rounds in that case? Does she just love to be clobbered with a door?

It could be two normal attacks and an attack of opportunity caused by Haley attempting to stand up from being prone.

[Flame of Anor]

I'll just point out that using the words "formally request" won't magically cause people to agree with you

Hey now, there's no need to get snarky.

It could be two normal attacks and an attack of opportunity caused by Haley attempting to stand up from being prone.

First, there's no evidence at all that she was trying to stand up.

Second, Haley's Tumble skill is through the roof. She would only have to make a single check at flat DC 15 to move without provoking AoOs.

Tumble example:

Spoiler

Show

In #108, Haley apparently tumbles past eight or ten goblins. The tenth panel shows that she is too far for a long jump to land right on Elan, so her reference to Tumble isn't about reducing falling damage. She had good enough ranks in Tumble at that point to make eight or ten of those checks in a row, and she's leveled up since.

Another Tumble example:

Spoiler

Show

She also makes two of those Tumble checks in #519.

[Math_Mage]

It could be two normal attacks and an attack of opportunity caused by Haley attempting to stand up from being prone.

Besides the fact that a rogue of Haley's level could make that Tumble check in her sleep, there's no real evidence that Haley did anything to provoke an AoO.

I'll just point out that using the words "formally request" won't magically cause people to agree with you

Duly noted. What I was doing was
(a) highlighting the discussion for your attention;
(b) codifying and extending the basic points that had already been made multiple times by other posters (and thus represented a reasonably broad opinion).

Let's just have some more discussion on Thog. The point about comic 396 was brought up just a few hours ago, and there's no need to rush anything. Thog has also been in numerous other fights that could be used for supporting evidence.

Thog didn't actually do anything between the Cliffport arc and the EoB arc. In fact, he HASN'T been in numerous fights. He was readily neutralized in the first LG encounter by Elan's illusion; he didn't do anything in the second arc except in the strip I linked. So he's really only had the one big fight. I and others have gone over the arena fight and barely gotten to show that he's above level 5. We've reached reasonable conclusions about some likely feats and ability scores Thog has, but nothing that lives up to the standard of proof for this thread because it's so difficult to show that any given interpretation of the fight is objectively valid.

At this point, I'm practically ready to state that this is the ONLY rock-solid data point about Thog in the strip so far that hasn't been dug up yet.

[Flame of Anor]

Also, Haley's armor should be listed as having some sort of heat-resisting property. There's nothing in the SRD that fits exactly, but we should at least note it.