Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[SavageWombat]

At this point, I'm practically ready to state that this is the ONLY rock-solid data point about Thog in the strip so far that hasn't been dug up yet.

I'm not going back through the thread to check, but SURELY somebody's figured out the minimum damage that Roy would have dished out during the arena fight? Even without magic, Roy's pretty strong. We should be able to determine some level of minimum HP for Thog.

[EmperorSarda]

I'm not going back through the thread to check, but SURELY somebody's figured out the minimum damage that Roy would have dished out during the arena fight? Even without magic, Roy's pretty strong. We should be able to determine some level of minimum HP for Thog.

The only discernible marks of damage that can be seen on Thog before the roof falls on him is the broken glass on his face, the slash mark on face from where his tusk broke and the arrow to the knee. I don't think that is much to go on. Especially when Roy appears to clonk Thog with the flat of the blade, and no damage markings are apparent from panel 6.

There literally is not much to go on.

[Math_Mage]

I'm not going back through the thread to check, but SURELY somebody's figured out the minimum damage that Roy would have dished out during the arena fight? Even without magic, Roy's pretty strong. We should be able to determine some level of minimum HP for Thog.

Here's the thing, though...Roy doesn't hit Thog all that much. The slash that broke Thog's tusk, a couple of ineffectual punches, and glass in the eyes...that's about it. Most of the damage was done by falling architecture. It would be like trying to calculate V's HP by looking at time he spent in lizard form. If Roy had the damage output to take Thog down, he wouldn't have HAD to resort to that kind of strategy.

EDIT: Ninja'd...and how could I possibly forget that Thog is no longer an adventurer like Roy? Dang.

[EmperorSarda]

EDIT: Ninja'd...and how could I possibly forget that Thog is no longer an adventurer like Roy? Dang.

He still got experience for battling every weekend against various levels of opponents for the past year. Thog probably has tons of HP lying around.

[Gilphon]

I'm aware that the 'common sense' interpretation of things rightfully holds no real sway in this place, but I'd just to voice my skepticism that Thog could've given Roy that much trouble if he wasn't at least Barbarian 8.

[Flame of Anor]

I'm not going back through the thread to check, but SURELY somebody's figured out the minimum damage that Roy would have dished out during the arena fight? Even without magic, Roy's pretty strong. We should be able to determine some level of minimum HP for Thog.

The problem with determining hit points like this is that minimum damage for any given fight is a lot smaller than likely damage. People don't just roll all 1's, but it could happen.

[EmperorSarda]

I'm aware that the 'common sense' interpretation of things rightfully holds no real sway in this place, but I'd just to voice my skepticism that Thog could've given Roy that much trouble if he wasn't at least Barbarian 8.

Thog probably is at least a 11th level Barbarian, assuming that he is about the same level as Roy or so. Unfortunately there is so little physical evidence to show for it. So we go by what is shown.

[Flame of Anor]

Thog probably is at least a 11th level Barbarian, assuming that he is about the same level as Roy or so. Unfortunately there is so little physical evidence to show for it. So we go by what is shown.

Indeed. Although Gilphon's "common sense" estimate is reasonable, and I have always advocated the use of some common sense in this thread, there really isn't a justification for saying that level just because he seems to be about that powerful.

I do maintain, though, that the door attack means he is (at that point) at least 11th level.

[Illven]

As of comic 840 Haley has less then max ranks in search

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html

[Yuki Akuma]

Vaarsuvius' spell list includes both "Grasping Hand" and "Bugby's Grasping Hand". Is there any reason for this?

[SinsI]

First, there's no evidence at all that she was trying to stand up.

Second, Haley's Tumble skill is through the roof. She would only have to make a single check at flat DC 15 to move without provoking AoOs.

His first attack tripped her almost prone(i.e. some kind of special ability for improvised weapon - door), and she was trying to stand up. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that always provokes attacks of opportunity. The only way Tumble skill can avoid it is if you make an Epic DC 35 Free Stand check - and Haley is a little bit less than Epic.

[Kurald Galain]

As of comic 840 Haley has less then max ranks in search

Added.

Vaarsuvius' spell list includes both "Grasping Hand" and "Bugby's Grasping Hand". Is there any reason for this?

No, I think that's a mistake. I believe there was also a Bixby's Hand mentioned at some point?

Duly noted. What I was doing was
(a) highlighting the discussion for your attention;
(b) codifying and extending the basic points that had already been made multiple times by other posters (and thus represented a reasonably broad opinion).

I appreciate the thought, but we're trying to keep this thread accessible to everyone, and we've got complaints that being overly formal is turning people away. Hence, my informal suggestion to please avoid using Formal Requests in this thread.

[EmperorSarda]

His first attack tripped her almost prone(i.e. some kind of special ability for improvised weapon - door), and she was trying to stand up. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that always provokes attacks of opportunity. The only way Tumble skill can avoid it is if you make an Epic DC 35 Free Stand check - and Haley is a little bit less than Epic.

I think trying to determine if Haley was trying to get up is more personal opinion. I look at Thog's second attack where Haley is on her knee and see her more just having been knocked down to it, not trying to get up. And with Thog's 3rd attack, all we can see is Haley's legs, completely prone on the ground.

So given that panel 3 appears to show not attempt to stand, then if she were trying to stand in panel 2 and got the attack of opportunity then, why would Thog get an additional attack after the attack of opportunity?

I think it is a full attack of three attacks. Cause trying to gauge stcik figure art to see if she is trying to stand or was just knocked down to her knees is a matter of pure speculation. (Unless the Giant comments on it randomly)

[Math_Mage]

His first attack tripped her almost prone(i.e. some kind of special ability for improvised weapon - door), and she was trying to stand up. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that always provokes attacks of opportunity. The only way Tumble skill can avoid it is if you make an Epic DC 35 Free Stand check - and Haley is a little bit less than Epic.

Trip, hell. He smashed her to the ground. I'd say something about the Knockdown feat except we don't even have basis for supposing Improved Trip, which is a prereq. Also, Thog's not allowed to use the AoO for standing up to trip Haley again, because the AoO resolves while she's still prone. So Haley would be able to stand up with one move action, taking the AoO, and then tumble away (or sneak attack) with her other action. Alternatively, she could crawl out of reach and then stand up, provoking no AoOs.

At any rate, now you're supposing that he only made one attack in each of two rounds, with an AoO in between (for which there is no evidence, since there's no indication of Haley actually trying to stand up, or of Elan taking a turn to do nothing but gape in astonishment). That would make Thog...less than level 6. Is that a plausible conclusion?

[Chronos]

As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Thog being level 11+ total is a very unextraordinary claim, and so unextraordinary evidence is enough. While it is possible that those three door whacks came from something other than a full attack, I think that it's simplest by far to assume that they were a full attack.

[Flame of Anor]

His first attack tripped her almost prone(i.e. some kind of special ability for improvised weapon - door), and she was trying to stand up.

There's no evidence that she was prone and trying to stand up. She is shown standing, then bowed over, then on the ground. And you're trying to introduce a special door-attack ability?!? I thought we were trying to keep things simple!

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that always provokes attacks of opportunity. The only way Tumble skill can avoid it is if you make an Epic DC 35 Free Stand check - and Haley is a little bit less than Epic.

And Haley's not stupid--she would know that. The only smart thing to do would be to crawl out of his threatened space (half speed, IIRC) while Tumbling so as not to provoke an AoO (another half). She could get 5 feet on a move action and then stand up with her other action.



Also, what Sarda, Math Mage, and Chronos said.

[RMS Oceanic]

Haley has Disable Device in order to disarm that trap.

[Thunderbuckets]

A few thoughts, mostly on Elan:

-Even though he explicitly states it, there's no need to claim Elan doesn't have Identify, since he should only have 4 1st level spells anyways, and we've seen them all. (Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Lesser Confusion, Silent Image.) I think 'not' spells should be reserved for tiers where we don't know all the known spells.

-But on that note: there are two 4th-level spells that we can mention he doesn't have: Cure Critical Wounds (self-explanatory) and Break Enchantment (Vaarsuvius wouldn't have sent him to find Durkon if Elan could cast Break Enchantment on his own.)

(The PHB has 21 4th-level Bard spells; we know Elan has three in addition to Neutralize Poison. 16 left to eliminate...)

(I'm also thinking about Summon Plot Exposition. It's not a 1st level spell, obviously. And it can't be a 3rd level spell, because Elan, who claims this is his 'newest' spell has just leveled up from 10 to 11, and is not high-enough level to swap out a 3rd-level spell for another 3rd-level spell. So it's either 0/2/4... but that's as far as I've got on that one. Thoughts from any other Geekery folks?)

-Comic 593 can be used as a citation for Elan's Inspire Greatness, since that's the only bardic music he has that offers a competence bonus on Fortitude saves.

-And that means Elan must have a minimum of 12 ranks in Perform (sing), since he's not playing his lute for Therkla.

-Also, two quick inventory notes: Haley has thieves' tools in the first panel, while Durkon should still have his entry papers to the Empire of Blood..

[Illven]

-But on that note: there are two 4th-level spells that we can mention he doesn't have:Break Enchantment (Vaarsuvius wouldn't have sent him to find Durkon if Elan could cast Break Enchantment on his own.)

Well that would also mean that Elan has less then 15 ranks in all perform skills, otherwise he could use Song of freedom to free Haley.

[EmperorSarda]

Well that would also mean that Elan has less then 15 ranks in all perform skills, otherwise he could use Song of freedom to free Haley.

We also know that Elan is not the brightest bulb in the shed and may not have thought to use Song of Freedom.

[Thunderbuckets]

We also know that Elan is not the brightest bulb in the shed and may not have thought to use Song of Freedom.

Exactly. And Vaarsuvius didn't think to remind him, because bard music isn't real magic. But s/he would've thought to say something about Elan's arcane prowess if Break Enchantment was an option.

[EmperorSarda]

Exactly. And Vaarsuvius didn't think to remind him, because bard music isn't real magic. But s/he would've thought to say something about Elan's arcane prowess if Break Enchantment was an option.

If V were out of spells and could help Elan with illusions, yes. But in the heat of battle, of needing to warn Durkon? Probably not.

[Gift Jeraff]

I find it unlikely for Vaarsuvius to even know about bard class features.

My personal theory for why Elan didn't use it is because he would've got arrested for singing a Song of Freedom, and they didn't have time to deal with that.

[Gilphon]

I really want to assume that Summon Plot Exposition is 0th level, but unless we get enough of a look at his spell list to positively eliminate the other opinions, we'll probably never find out of sure, since I highly doubt it'll ever be referred to again.

[sr123]

Re: Song of Freedom

Break Enchantment only works on 5th-level transmutations and lower, where Flesh to Stone is 6th-level, thus requiring Stone to Soft Curvy Flesh, so Elan's Song of Freedom won't work (in contradiction, then, perhaps Durkon boosts the level of his Break Enchantment does work).

Re: Perform (Sing)

Inspire Greatness works with any Perform, but is regardless activated by song/somatically. So Elan doesn't need the 12 ranks in Perform(Sing) - only Perform(Lute or Strings).

[Douglas]

Re: Song of Freedom

Break Enchantment only works on 5th-level transmutations and lower, where Flesh to Stone is 6th-level, thus requiring Stone to Soft Curvy Flesh, so Elan's Song of Freedom won't work (in contradiction, then, perhaps Durkon boosts the level of his Break Enchantment does work).

The "5th level or lower" restriction is specifically for spells that can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic. While Flesh to Stone is undispellable, that is because of its instantaneous duration. It is a fairly common interpretation that this clause of Break Enchantment is specifically referring to things like Bestow Curse, where the spell includes a specific "Dispel Magic doesn't work" clause, and under that interpretation Flesh to Stone would be reversible by Break Enchantment regardless of level because it has no such clause.

[Thunderbuckets]

Re: Song of Freedom

Break Enchantment only works on 5th-level transmutations and lower, where Flesh to Stone is 6th-level, thus requiring Stone to Soft Curvy Flesh, so Elan's Song of Freedom won't work (in contradiction, then, perhaps Durkon boosts the level of his Break Enchantment does work).

Re: Perform (Sing)

Inspire Greatness works with any Perform, but is regardless activated by song/somatically. So Elan doesn't need the 12 ranks in Perform(Sing) - only Perform(Lute or Strings).

Ooh, two good catches. While we know Elan has 12+ ranks in at least one Perform skill, he's got at least three, so we're no further along. Shoot. Here I was thinking I was so clever.

The Break Enchantment pickle is another thing entirely. We know that Durkon's use of the spell is enough to eliminate Flesh to Stone; douglas' interpretation is likely the correct one. But that also suggests that a theoretical Break Enchantment cast by Vaarsuvius or Elan could do the same thing, as could a Song of Freedom, which duplicates the effect.

I don't think we can rule anything on the Song of Freedom; either Elan doesn't have 15+ ranks in a Perform skill or Elan just didn't think of it in the heat of the moment and Vaarsuvius doesn't know anything about bardic music. So that's all still up in the air.

But after consideration, I'm going to retract my thoughts on Elan's Break Enchantment; even if he had it, (and presumably, Vaarsuvius would know about it,) there's a chance that V would do everything from the comic the same way, and tell him to go protect Durkon rather than take the time to free Haley. (After all, Durkon waits until after the Linear Guild battle to free her himself.) While I still think the most likely outcome is that Elan doesn't have BE, it's all a little too debateable and sketchy, which means it's probably all not fodder for this thread until we get further evidence.

[Flame of Anor]

When Vaarsuvius tells Elan: Go get Durkon to cast break enchantment, even Elan is not dim-witted enough that that wouldn't remind him that he had the very same spell, if he in fact did. Recall that he is much more competent at using and remembering his spells now, since the events on the Azure City fleet.

[weso12]

A good argument for Thog being higher level is that he is a personal rival for Roy so he is the same level as him (You used the same logic for Nale and Sabine)

[Gilphon]

Yeah, but Roy's little speech to Thog about how they're not rivals kind of undermines that argument.