Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[ti'esar]

Yeah, but Roy's little speech to Thog about how they're not rivals kind of undermines that argument.

That speech gets sort of undercut itself by the end, though.

[EmperorSarda]

Thog's speech and Roys was about how they are not Evil Opposites. Nothing is said at all about personal rivals.

[Kish]

Yes. If Nale is listed as a personal rival of Elan, and Sabine of Haley, Thog not being listed as a personal rival of Roy is insupportable.

[Kurald Galain]

Haley has Disable Device in order to disarm that trap.

Added. Also, added her tools.

-Even though he explicitly states it, there's no need to claim Elan doesn't have Identify, since he should only have 4 1st level spells anyways, and we've seen them all.

Probably not, but some people argue that you can take a lower-level spell in a higher level slot, or that he could have retrained. It's simply listed because we have an explicit statement that Elan doesn't have Identify.

-But on that note: there are two 4th-level spells that we can mention he doesn't have: Cure Critical Wounds (self-explanatory) and Break Enchantment

Added. Also aded Inspire Greatness links and 12 ranks in sing, and Durkon's papers.

I'm not convinced Elan cannot use Song of Freedom; we just know that he didn't use it, for whatever reason. I'm not sure why a bard would be able to use Song of Greatness on e.g. a flute using ranks in Perform (Violin), though.

A good argument for Thog being higher level is that he is a personal rival for Roy so he is the same level as him (You used the same logic for Nale and Sabine)

Let's see. The first The first time the OOTS encounters the Order, Elan is the one who defeats Thog, not Roy. The second time they meet the Order, Durkon defeats Thog while Roy is asleep. The third time, when they meet in the arena, Thog is happy to see Roy, and Roy says he doesn't consider Thug his rival.

So it's an interesting idea but needs more discussion. We know that not all LG members are necessarily a personal rival of anyone in particular.

[sr123]

I'm not sure why a bard would be able to use Song of Greatness on e.g. a flute using ranks in Perform (Violin), though.

Bardic Music is supernatural and/or spell-like. Any orator can inspire people with a rousing speech, but only an arcanic bard can inspire people for a full fight with only 6 seconds of prose.

It seems artistic mastery of any sort is enough to kick off such effects, as long as the expression thereof (somatic or verbal) makes some kind of sense (otherwise, mechanically, why would any bard not take sing, oratory, or dance?).

[Flame of Anor]

Let's see. The first The first time the OOTS encounters the Order, Elan is the one who defeats Thog, not Roy. The second time they meet the Order, Durkon defeats Thog while Roy is asleep. The third time, when they meet in the arena, Thog is happy to see Roy, and Roy says he doesn't consider Thug his rival.

So it's an interesting idea but needs more discussion. We know that not all LG members are necessarily a personal rival of anyone in particular.

Very well, but I think the three-hits-from-the-door argument has still not received any plausible counter.

[DeadmanXI]

Y'know, I was just re-reading some of the very earliest strips and something occurred to me: Elan was wearing a Chain Shirt (potentially a -2 Armor Check penalty) when he rolled a 4 on Move Silently...which makes his top possible Dex 21, not 17.

Now a Dex quite that high is pretty unlikely, but higher than 17 isn't necessarily.

Additionally, the link for Move Silently 1+ goes to Comic #90...which neither proves nor states anything of the kind. I seem to remember his having such a skill getting mentioned later, but it's not in that specific comic.

[Psyren]

So it's an interesting idea but needs more discussion. We know that not all LG members are necessarily a personal rival of anyone in particular.

Not "personal rival" - Evil Opposite, which the stereotypically dumb and evil half-orc barbarian clearly is for the unconventionally smart and good Roy.

[Illven]

Y'know, I was just re-reading some of the very earliest strips and something occurred to me: Elan was wearing a Chain Shirt (potentially a -2 Armor Check penalty) when he rolled a 4 on Move Silently...which makes his top possible Dex 21, not 17.

Now a Dex quite that high is pretty unlikely, but higher than 17 isn't necessarily.

Yeah but in the more recent move silently check he got a 9 because the boots add 5, and he isn't wearing armor and thus can't have a ACP.

[Math_Mage]

Not "personal rival" - Evil Opposite, which the stereotypically dumb and evil half-orc barbarian clearly is for the unconventionally smart and good Roy.

True...but it's the 'personal rival' thing that actually has in-comic support for equal leveling. FWIW I do think Thog is the same level as Roy, but I'm having a tough enough time showing that he's even level 11.

[Psyren]

I don't think we need to prove he's in lockstep with Roy. I just wanted a more precise measurement than level 3

[Flame of Anor]

but I'm having a tough enough time showing that he's even level 11.

Indeed.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah but in the more recent move silently check he got a 9 because the boots add 5, and he isn't wearing armor and thus can't have a ACP.

So I'll change the link to that comic.

[zimmerwald1915]

Would it be possible to list when the Order levelled up, as well as their current level?

For instance:

{table]Strip|Roy|Haley|Elan|Vaarsuvius|Durkon|Belkar
1|10|10|10|10|10|10
12|11|11|11|11|11|11
124|12|12|12|12|12|11
125|12|12|12|12|12|12
377|13|13|12|13|13|13
392|13|13|13|13|13|13
511|13|14|13|13|13|13
515|13|14|13|13|13|14
595|13|14|13|14|14|14
602|13|15|13|14|14|15
647|13|15|14|14|14|15
665|12|15|14|14|14|15
692|12 (13, leveling with Vaarsuvius and Durkon?)|15|14|15|15|15
736|12 (14, leveling with Belkar?)|15|14|15|15|16[/table]

notes: level-up points not explicitly shown in the comic (strips 12 and 124 for everyone, strip 515 for Belkar, strips 392 and 647 for Elan) are inferred by working backwards from the point a member of the Order was shown to have a class ability indicative of leveling up to the last fight shown, and adding a day. For instance, 377 is indicated as the point where everyone but Elan leveled to 13 because it was the day after the party, minus Elan, defeated the Roc. Strip 595 is indicated as the point where Vaarsuvius and Durkon leveled to 14 because it was the day after they aided in the defeat of the Devil of Ludicrous Size, because they seem to have leveled together up to that point (indeed, if there was an XP difference between Durkon and Vaarsuvius at that point, Durkon would have more XP) and because Vaarsuvius demonstrated the abilities of a 14th-level character in her next fight - the fight with the Ancient Black Dragon.

Roy doesn't level during DStP due to being dead.
Roy loses a level due to his being resurrected. He probably levels during the current arc, due to being lower-level than the rest of the party, but this is unconfirmed.
Haley levels to 14 earlier than Belkar due to being able to fight hobgoblins during their time with the Resistance. Thereafter they level together until strip 736.
Durkon and Vaarsuvius level to 14 earlier than Elan due to being present when the Devil of Unusual Size was defeated.

[The Guardian]

You have Xykon listed as Level 21+ Sorcerer... this is dramatically under-leveling him.

We've seen him use at least a 12th level spell slot (Maximized Energy Drain) vs Darth V.

That means he's got the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat at least three times.

Assuming he took Epic Spellcasting at 21st level, and he needs three more Epic Feats (24th, 27th, 30th)

Therefore, Xykon is at LEAST Level 30 at that point.

[Kurald Galain]

Would it be possible to list when the Order levelled up, as well as their current level?

I really like this idea!

Hm, would it be clearer to put all levels on the vertical axis, and list the comic where the character first demonstrated ability of that level?

{table]Level||| ...
10|1|1|1
11|12|12|12
...|
[/table]

You have Xykon listed as Level 21+ Sorcerer... this is dramatically under-leveling him.

Possibly. Please read pages 7 through 17 of this thread for an extensive discussion on the subject.

[SavageWombat]

You have Xykon listed as Level 21+ Sorcerer... this is dramatically under-leveling him.

We've seen him use at least a 12th level spell slot (Maximized Energy Drain) vs Darth V.

That means he's got the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat at least three times.

Assuming he took Epic Spellcasting at 21st level, and he needs three more Epic Feats (24th, 27th, 30th)

Therefore, Xykon is at LEAST Level 30 at that point.

Brought up already, discussed to death and may have resulted in the closing of the previous thread. I wouldn't push it.

[Myou]

You have Xykon listed as Level 21+ Sorcerer... this is dramatically under-leveling him.

We've seen him use at least a 12th level spell slot (Maximized Energy Drain) vs Darth V.

That means he's got the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat at least three times.

Assuming he took Epic Spellcasting at 21st level, and he needs three more Epic Feats (24th, 27th, 30th)

Therefore, Xykon is at LEAST Level 30 at that point.

Oh gods, don't start this again!

Look back a bit in the thread - half the posts are a long and bitter argument about this.

Edit: Swordsaged

[Illven]

You have Xykon listed as Level 21+ Sorcerer... this is dramatically under-leveling him.

We've seen him use at least a 12th level spell slot (Maximized Energy Drain) vs Darth V.

That means he's got the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat at least three times.

Assuming he took Epic Spellcasting at 21st level, and he needs three more Epic Feats (24th, 27th, 30th)

Therefore, Xykon is at LEAST Level 30 at that point.

If that is the way he casted it. (i.e No sudden maximized) He still could be level 26. 21st first epic feat. 23rd bonus epic feat for being a level 23 sorcerer. 24th second epic feat, 26th bonus epic feat for being a level 26th sorcerer

[Flame of Anor]

If that is the way he casted it. (i.e No sudden maximized) He still could be level 26. 21st first epic feat. 23rd bonus epic feat for being a level 23 sorcerer. 24th second epic feat, 26th bonus epic feat for being a level 26th sorcerer

Hey hey, is "don't start this again" unclear or something? Let's not get this thread locked like the last one.

[LudiDrizzt]

{Scrubbed}

[Flame of Anor]

I don't see how "don't start this again" is an argument, all the current decision did was appease the insufferably vocal, and incorrect, minority.

Sudden maximize...seriously...such a bad verdict.

Do you not understand that 21+ subsumes 30+ and 26+ and all? It's not this way because the people who don't think the 26+ or 30+ arguments work have won, it's because this way no one is contradicted.

[Math_Mage]

Just reiterating the "Thog is 11+ based on three door attacks" claim, in hopes that either it will be discussed further, or the mods will set a time limit on objections before adding it to the list, or they'll start a vote, or something.

Actually, screw that. I'll start a vote. I'll give it until the end of page 23, for the sake of balancing 'including many voices' and 'let's get this over with'. Does this comic show Thog taking a full attack action of three attacks in one round, which would make him Level 11+? Either post, or PM both me and RMS Oceanic.

I don't see how "don't start this again" is an argument, all the current decision did was appease the insufferably vocal, and incorrect, minority.

Sudden maximize...seriously...such a bad verdict.

Plenty of insufferables on all sides of that debate. It's led us into major trouble twice before. "Don't start this again" is a plea, not an argument.

EDIT: Oh, how did I miss this before?

He still got experience for battling every weekend against various levels of opponents for the past year. Thog probably has tons of HP lying around.

I was making a Skyrim joke. Thog is no longer an adventurer like Roy because he took an arrow to the knee.

[LudiDrizzt]

{{scrubbed}}

[Math_Mage]

{{scrubbed}}

Right now it's reading "21+ (For the sake of thread harmony)". Can we please keep it that way?

[zimmerwald1915]

I really like this idea!

Hm, would it be clearer to put all levels on the vertical axis, and list the comic where the character first demonstrated ability of that level?

{table]Level||| ...
10|1|1|1
11|12|12|12
...|
[/table]

{table]Level||||||
10|1|1|1|1|1|1
11|12|12|12|12|12|12
12|124, 665|124|124|124|124|125
13|485|-|393|397|649|-
14|-|-|647|627|-|-
15|-|615|-|716|806|-
16|-|-|-|-|-|748[/table]

Personally, I think all the Order members were level 13 during the Battle for Azure City, but only Elan and Vaarsuvius first demonstrate level-13-appropriate abilities before or during the battle. Roy's being level 13 is derived from Eugene's statement that Roy was "the highest-level Good character on the field"; it cannot be derived from his performance. Actually, his performance during the battle would be exactly like the performance of a twelfth-level character, since Fighter 13 is about on par with Fighter 3 in terms of how much it gives. Incidentally, this is about as good an argument as any for Roy not having clawed his way back up to level 14. If he had, and met whatever the prerequisites are, he would have taken Horace's feat.

Going from the assumption that all the OOTS was level 13 during the battle, Belkar's level-up on 515 should have put him on level 14 (come on, he's a ranger/barbarian; he was going to make the Fort save the next morning). But this depends on the assumption, and can't really be proven.

[Flame of Anor]

Actually, screw that. I'll start a vote. I'll give it until the end of page 23, for the sake of balancing 'including many voices' and 'let's get this over with'. Does this comic show Thog taking a full attack action of three attacks in one round, which would make him Level 11+?

Yes, it does.

What it should read is "21+ (Sudden Maximize) OR 27+ (Common Sense)"

Look, man, I even agree with you about Xykon's level, but it's just not worth being so rude over.

[ti'esar]

Actually, screw that. I'll start a vote. I'll give it until the end of page 23, for the sake of balancing 'including many voices' and 'let's get this over with'. Does this comic show Thog taking a full attack action of three attacks in one round, which would make him Level 11+? Either post, or PM both me and RMS Oceanic.

I'm going to say yes, it does.

[Gift Jeraff]

I say it does.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, screw that. I'll start a vote.

Okay, can we please not do that?

We have pointed out earlier in the thread that "the majority is right and the minority must be silent" is not a viable way of resolving a dispute. Furthermore, voting is an added layer of rules and bureaucracy, and we have also seen earlier in the thread that such added layers scare people away from participating.

Remember, we're already agreeing on 98% of the things brought to this thread. That is a very high success rate, and reasonable people can still have different reasonable opinions about a comic strip. It's really okay if people don't agree on the remaining 2%, and agreeing to disagree is a mature and viable solution.