Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Math_Mage]

Okay, can we please not do that?

We have pointed out earlier in the thread that "the majority is right and the minority must be silent" is not a viable way of resolving a dispute. Furthermore, voting is an added layer of rules and bureaucracy, and we have also seen earlier in the thread that such added layers scare people away from participating.

Remember, we're already agreeing on 98% of the things brought to this thread. That is a very high success rate, and reasonable people can still have different reasonable opinions about a comic strip. It's really okay if people don't agree on the remaining 2%, and agreeing to disagree is a mature and viable solution.

I'd take it if there were any disagreement. Frankly, I'm starting the vote just as much to see if there's ANYONE who will vote "no", because then maybe we can have some discussion about it, instead of this limbo where everyone agrees to the point that there's no discussion, but for some reason we still can't add it.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd take it if there were any disagreement. Frankly, I'm starting the vote just as much to see if there's ANYONE who will vote "no", because then maybe we can have some discussion about it, instead of this limbo where everyone agrees to the point that there's no discussion, but for some reason we still can't add it.

If you want a discussion, then discuss it. You can look at the last debate to see who agrees with you and who doesn't - in fact, the latest post about the topic is dated yesterday, so it seems to me that it's still ongoing. The latest argument appears to be about whether Roy and Thog are evil opposites, personal rivals, or neither, both, or something else. And a casual glance over it shows that no, not everybody agrees. That's okay, people don't have to agree on everything.

I don't have a stake in this argument, but I'm not seeing a consensus either. So yeah, I think you're jumping the gun. There's no need to do that.

(edit) Also, I would like to congratulate Zimmerwald on the level-up table, which is a nice piece of geekery. I'm curious if other people here have comments or additions to that.

[zimmerwald1915]

(edit) Also, I would like to congratulate Zimmerwald on the level-up table, which is a nice piece of geekery. I'm curious if other people here have comments or additions to that.

Actually, I screwed up Durkon's column just a bit. He tries to cast Holy Word on 556, first demonstrating the abilities of a level 13 cleric there and not on 649. I was also a bit biased in claiming 806 showed that he exhibited the abilities of a level 15 cleric. Starting WIS of 17, increased three times on level-up to 4, 8, and 12, plus a +4 WIS item explains it as well. I'd forgotten about the level-up increases. I do think it's a bit ridiculous for Durkon to have not leveled between 556 and 842 while Belker shoots up to level 16, but there you go.

[Math_Mage]

If you want a discussion, then discuss it. You can look at the last debate to see who agrees with you and who doesn't - in fact, the latest post about the topic is dated yesterday, so it seems to me that it's still ongoing. The latest argument appears to be about whether Roy and Thog are evil opposites, personal rivals, or neither, both, or something else. And a casual glance over it shows that no, not everybody agrees. That's okay, people don't have to agree on everything.

I don't have a stake in this argument, but I'm not seeing a consensus either. So yeah, I think you're jumping the gun. There's no need to do that.

I think you're confusing the question of whether Thog is a personal rival of Roy with the question of whether the triple door attack shows Thog is 11+. Please don't lump them under one umbrella of "What level is Thog?" as they are not the same thing. It has been quite some time since anyone has disagreed that Thog is 11+. I am by no means jumping the gun on this particular subject, whereas I certainly WOULD be if I were trying to get you to list Thog as a personal rival of Roy, hence of equal level.

[Flame of Anor]

I think you're confusing the question of whether Thog is a personal rival of Roy with the question of whether the triple door attack shows Thog is 11+. Please don't lump them under one umbrella of "What level is Thog?" as they are not the same thing. It has been quite some time since anyone has disagreed that Thog is 11+. I am by no means jumping the gun on this particular subject, whereas I certainly WOULD be if I were trying to get you to list Thog as a personal rival of Roy, hence of equal level.

Yeah, this. If the door attack gives us data on Thog's level, which I believe it does, then that has nothing to do with whether or not the possibility that Thog is a rival/opposite of Roy gives similar data.

And, Kurald, if it makes you feel better, think of it as a poll, not a vote. That's really what it is.

[Kurald Galain]

It has been quite some time since anyone has disagreed that Thog is 11+.

About two weeks, by my count. I fail to see how the time lapse is relevant, though. The point is, from their comments it strikes me that EmperorSarda and Sinsi disagree with you, and you do not appear to have convinced them. That puts Thog's level in about the same situation as Elan's possibly-silver rapier, which I think had the discussion dying out without convincing the two main proponents of not-silver.

I'm not seeing either as a problem right now. It's human nature that people are never going to agree on 100%, so like I said, that we're agreeing on about 98% of the material in the comic is a great success by my scale.

[Myou]

Problem is, every other + next to a number indicates that the particular number is the minimum we've seen demonstrated, but it's possibly higher.

In this case, it's just wrong, as the minimum we've seen demonstrated is 27.

What it should read is "21+ (Sudden Maximize) OR 27+ (Common Sense)"

The point is more than these arguments have already been made, and 21+, while unlikely, is technically correct, and is a compromise for the sake of allowing the thread to remain unlocked.

I don't have a stake in this argument, but I'm not seeing a consensus either. So yeah, I think you're jumping the gun. There's no need to do that.

There's a strong consensus on Thog being 11+ due to the comic mentioned. That's why Math_Mage is trying to get you to take action. The only challenge to the suggestion seems to have been dropped or abandoned. The evidence seems good. So we just want you to add it to the post.

[LudiDrizzt]

11+ on Thog indeed. It's clearly a full-round action.

[Flame of Anor]

That puts Thog's level in about the same situation as Elan's possibly-silver rapier, which I think had the discussion dying out without convincing the two main proponents of not-silver.

The silver rapier thing was founded solely on a joke and a subtle art change. While those do, I admit, lend the theory plausibility, the simplest explanation is that they don't mean much. It has been put into the sheet regardless, though with a qualifier.

The door is founded on a clear use of a game mechanic. The ways which have been contrived for it not to indicate Thog's level are, unlike the possibility of the rapier not being silver, more complicated than letting Thog be 11+. They assume out-of-character actions on the part of the good guys and/or behavior (trying to stand up) which is not even hinted at in the art.

Too, the circumstantial evidence suggests that it is very likely that Thog is above 10th level. The circumstantial evidence says nothing one way or another about whether Elan secretly got his rapier silvered. Well, actually, that's not quite true: if he had gotten it silvered, then either it's going to come up again or not. If not, then it's a pointlessly subtle inclusion. If so, then it would be bad writing for the Giant not to include any more significant Chekov's-gunnery.

Now, I'm honestly not trying to bring up the rapier for debate again. Saying "silver-colored" is a fine compromise by me. But I'm just trying to point out that if something as tenuous as that gets into the character sheet, the 11+ definitely should.

[Kurald Galain]

There's a strong consensus on Thog being 11+ due to the comic mentioned. That's why Math_Mage is trying to get you to take action. The only challenge to the suggestion seems to have been dropped or abandoned. The evidence seems good. So we just want you to add it to the post.

Please understand that I'm threading really carefully here, only because I want to avoid a repeat of the flame-war-and-mod-scrubbing situation we had just a few weeks ago. If that means the thread is moving slower than you would personally prefer, then I respect that, but I'm sure we can all agree that a slow-updating thread is better than a locked one.

That said, could you please point out where EmperorSarda and Sinsi have said that they dropped their challenge? Other than that I'll just go re-read last week's discussion, but that shouldn't take too long.

[Myou]

Please understand that I'm threading really carefully here, only because I want to avoid a repeat of the flame-war-and-mod-scrubbing situation we had just a few weeks ago. If that means the thread is moving slower than you would personally prefer, then I respect that, but I'm sure we can all agree that a slow-updating thread is better than a locked one.

That said, could you please point out where EmperorSarda and Sinsi have said that they dropped their challenge? Other than that I'll just go re-read last week's discussion, but that shouldn't take too long.

It's nothing personal for me, I'm not really very involved in this thread at all.

As for the challenge, when the two opponents both stop posting is that not to be taken into account? In a year's time will you still say that their past dissent means you can't update the front page? If they should return and reiterate their objections then you can always change it back.

But in any case their challenge was IIRC based on the idea that several rounds passed, and given all that was required for that to be true, a rather silly argument.

I'm really abusing that emote.

[Math_Mage]

About two weeks, by my count. I fail to see how the time lapse is relevant, though. The point is, from their comments it strikes me that EmperorSarda and Sinsi disagree with you, and you do not appear to have convinced them. That puts Thog's level in about the same situation as Elan's possibly-silver rapier, which I think had the discussion dying out without convincing the two main proponents of not-silver.

I'm not seeing either as a problem right now. It's human nature that people are never going to agree on 100%, so like I said, that we're agreeing on about 98% of the material in the comic is a great success by my scale.

If you fail to see how the time lapse is relevant...then why did you cite time as a factor to begin with?

EmperorSarda agrees with the 11+ conclusion. Herpestidae voiced an objection, which SinsI continued with an inaccurate claim about what Improved Trip could do based on an at best highly questionable interpretation of that scene as Haley provoking an AoO (without visibly moving) while Elan stood by doing nothing--neither has been back to defend or even abandon their claims. It's hard to convince absentee ballots of anything, but their absence lends no weight to their position, and it has been demolished by logic several times over.

In contrast with the silver-rapier debate, we have an issue of actions rather than words; we don't need to worry about whether Thog was taking poetic license with the full attack rules. And we have absolutely no reason whatever to believe Thog is below level 11 in any case. The reason I went looking for solid evidence in the first place is that people are frustrated with only being able to solidly conclude Thog is 3+ despite all signs pointing to him being at or near Roy's level. So I found some solid evidence to back up what common sense tells us, objections were explained away with unequivocal logic, thread consensus has built up--what exactly are we waiting for?

[Kish]

You have Xykon listed as Level 21+ Sorcerer... this is dramatically under-leveling him.

The thread has a rule that if multiple interpretations exist for something happening, "that character is higher level than the minimum possible" is treated as less likely than "that character has higher stats than the minimum possible," "that character has obscure feats," and "that character has unheralded items."

I think it's a silly rule and I still would like to know where it came from, but at least it's being enforced more consistently now.

[Math_Mage]

On an unrelated matter, Nale has at least 56 hit points due to surviving Malack's Harm spell. Malack is 11+, so Harm deals 110 points of damage on a failed save, which would be impossible for Nale to survive on 8+ levels of Sorcerer HD, so Nale must have made his save.

[SavageWombat]

On an unrelated matter, Nale has at least 56 hit points (possibly at least 111) due to surviving Malack's Harm spell.

Harm literally can't kill anyone. If he had 5 HP, he'd still be at 1.

[Math_Mage]

Harm literally can't kill anyone. If he had 5 HP, he'd still be at 1.

Ow, wait, my brain. Whoops. Need to read.

EDIT: Technically, that's only on a successful save. Of course, Nale couldn't have survived 110 damage if he'd failed his save, so that still doesn't tell us anything. Ah well.

[Myou]

Harm literally can't kill anyone. If he had 5 HP, he'd still be at 1.

Huh, somehow I never noticed that before.

[Flame of Anor]

Harm literally can't kill anyone. If he had 5 HP, he'd still be at 1.

Whence the quickened inflict moderate wounds for the figurative coup de grace. If he hadn't dodged, then no more Nale! Ah well.

[Shale]

Tarquin probably would have gotten him raised in order to pick his brain anyway.

[Gift Jeraff]

Zz'dtri should have an unspecified scrying spell on his character block. (Link to this strip if you want to avoid people debating how we don't know if that's Z for sure.)

[Forbiddenwar]

Harm literally can't kill anyone. If he had 5 HP, he'd still be at 1.

Only on a successful save.

If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1.

If harm couldn't kill anyone it would read:

If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount. Harm cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1.

Edit: sorry. Already mentioned. I failed my spot.

[Gilphon]

I feel like nobody seriously believes that Thog isn't 11+, and that the problem simply lies with gathering sufficient evidence to prove it.

Though I do personally believe that those three attacks in that one comic are sufficient evidence.

[eras10]

If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1.

I feel like this is a badly-worded sentence intended to state that in either circumstance, failing or making save, harm can't kill anyone.

I mean, it's logically appealing that what is otherwise a significantly more powerful damage spell than anything prior has a loophole of not allowing you to kill someone directly. Even with a successful save, it's otherwise such a strong spell as to inhibit balance.

[Myou]

I feel like this is a badly-worded sentence intended to state that in either circumstance, failing or making save, harm can't kill anyone.

I mean, it's logically appealing that what is otherwise a significantly more powerful damage spell than anything prior has a loophole of not allowing you to kill someone directly. Even with a successful save, it's otherwise such a strong spell as to inhibit balance.

Given that there already exist save-or-dies around this level, and even in core the cleric gets a save of die with a save for damage at the next level, I don't entirely agree that it would inhibit balance. It's strong, but there are worse spells.

Also, if that were the intent then the clause would appear before the mention of saves. Eg:

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level), but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1. If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount.

Since the actual wording is clear in applying only to the case of a successful save, even if that wasn't the intent.

[Psyren]

Put me in Math_Mage's corner - Thog's three whacks on Haley were clearly an attack routine, putting him at 11+.

Also, I personally don't think Harm can kill anyone either (since that's how it's always worked) and the Giant's one-two punch with Malack indicates that's how he thought it worked too.

[Kurald Galain]

Question about the Thog-whacking-Haley moment. Does it occur anywhere else in the comic that The Giant spreads a single combat round over multiple panels? (and if so, where?)

[Gilphon]

Electric Orb, maybe? Or perhaps the interrupted Meteor Swarm.

[Shale]

Plus most quickened spells - the one that comes to mind is Malack's Harm/Moderate Wounds combo.

[Myou]

Put me in Math_Mage's corner - Thog's three whacks on Haley were clearly an attack routine, putting him at 11+.

Also, I personally don't think Harm can kill anyone either (since that's how it's always worked) and the Giant's one-two punch with Malack indicates that's how he thought it worked too.

To me that looks more like insurance in case the target makes their save. RAW is clear, as for RAI, that's really up to the DM.

[SavageWombat]

To me that looks more like insurance in case the target makes their save. RAW is clear, as for RAI, that's really up to the DM.

Trust the guy who's played for thirty years. The spell can't reduce your HP below 1, save or no save.