Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[FujinAkari]

You say that as if "make highly dubious claims" was actually preferable to "note that we do not know."

That may be because 'highly dubious' is a judgement call and is in no way justified factually. It can be claimed with exactly as much correctness that Eugene's claims are "highly accurate."

As Galain said, if we suddenly started ignoring any and all statements by any character who had ever lied, we would lose a ton of the strip. The gates would probably be some sort of ice-cream creating artifact (since Shojo can't be trusted), Ian wouldn't actually be Haley's father, and Belkar would have to have a very high Wisdom bonus and was merely lying about it. The whole Owl's wisdom joke in the Dungeon of Durokan just shows that Belkar is a very convincing liar.

Or we can say that information presented in the comic is assumed true unless there is conflicting information.

[Kish]

That may be because 'highly dubious' is a judgement call and is in no way justified factually. It can be claimed with exactly as much correctness that Eugene's claims are "highly accurate."

Claiming that a character who lies all the time lies all the time is exactly as correct as claiming that his claims should be treated as Word of God. Mm no.*

As Galain said, if we suddenly started ignoring any and all statements by any character who had ever lied, we would lose a ton of the strip. The gates would probably be some sort of ice-cream creating artifact (since Shojo can't be trusted), Ian wouldn't actually be Haley's father, and Belkar would have to have a very high Wisdom bonus and was merely lying about it. The whole Owl's wisdom joke in the Dungeon of Durokan just shows that Belkar is a very convincing liar.

Well done! That's one strawman that won't be getting back up.

Or we can say that information presented in the comic is assumed true unless there is conflicting information.

When Shojo had indicated that he was a senile old man who took orders from his cat, it would have been a mistake to put in any manner of official listing "Shojo: Senile old man who takes orders from his cat." And, when Roy assumed Shojo was a paladin, it would have been a mistake to put in a proto-version of this thread: "Shojo: Paladin."

If we only had the word of the liar Shojo about what the Gates are and do, it would be a mistake to claim to have factual information about the Gates. You're sarcastically, and utterly erroneously, excluding the middle by indicating that the only alternatives are "treat everything every character says as authoritative" and "treat NOTHING as authoritative."

*I mean, setting aside the fact that what Eugene says cannot possibly be true; Roy was not the highest level Good character on the field unless you think Roy is somehow higher level than Soon. Eugene redefined "on the field" to not take in the area where the most important battle of the Azure City conquest took place. Or Eugene added a "living" clause which he didn't see fit to share with Roy as he insulted him. Or...Eugene just plain said what he wanted to say to taunt Roy without being concerned about whether it was true or not, only with his knowledge that Roy couldn't prove it wasn't true. The question is not even "Did Eugene lie?"** The question is, "When Eugene lied, did he just lie, or did he play a Tarquinish my-lie-is-not-a-lie-because-X mind game with himself?"

**Unless he didn't watch everything that happened and, thus, didn't know about Soon. In which case, instead of "we shouldn't treat Eugene's word as authoritative because he lied," we have, "we shouldn't treat Eugene's word as authoritative because he was wrong." Either way, Objective Reality is over here, What Eugene Says is way over there.

[FujinAkari]

Claiming that a character who lies all the time lies all the time is exactly as correct as claiming that his claims should be treated as Word of God. Mm no.*

We should note that Eugene does not, in fact, lie "all the time." Many of the key plot points in the strip come from Eugene and seem to be accurate.

If you had typed "lies all the time" twice intentionally to create a double negative in order to imply Eugene doesn't lie all the time, then ignore this post. I am assuming that was a typo :)

When Shojo had indicated that he was a senile old man who took orders from his cat, it would have been a mistake to put in any manner of official listing "Shojo: Senile old man who takes orders from his cat." And, when Roy assumed Shojo was a paladin, it would have been a mistake to put in a proto-version of this thread: "Shojo: Paladin."

I disagree with this. Just because a reveal happens that redefines our understanding of a situation in no way means that it was incorrect to have assumed anything previously. It is impossible to know everything, and so we -must- work with the best information presently at hand.

**Unless he didn't watch everything that happened and, thus, didn't know about Soon. In which case, instead of "we shouldn't treat Eugene's word as authoritative because he lied," we have, "we shouldn't treat Eugene's word as authoritative because he was wrong." Either way, Objective Reality is over here, What Eugene Says is way over there.

Yeah... because Eugene's assessment of Haley, Elan, and Durkon's level respective to Roy is completely invalidated due to Soon's unforeseen arrival... why?

[Kurald Galain]

So put Tarquin as "Has levels in an Unknown Class, possibly one that uses Maneuvers." or something to that effect.

That's a pretty meaningless statement, though.

We should note that Eugene does not, in fact, lie "all the time."

Indeed. Bear in mind that Eugene is lawful. Rather than a sweeping statement that he "lies all the time", I would strongly prefer seeing a list of instances where he has lied. The only one I can remember off the top of my head was when he missed Roy's sports match to speak to Right-Eye.
It strikes me that both Belkar and Haley lie substantially more often than Eugene does, and we are treating statements by Belkar and Haley as permissible evidence (the occasional joke aside) because this threa would get a lot shorter if we wouldn't.

Sidestep Charge is a pretty good find, and I agree that it looks like what he's doing,

Question: is this the only explanation we could find within the rules, or merely the best-looking one?

[FujinAkari]

Indeed. Bear in mind that Eugene is lawful. Rather than a sweeping statement that he "lies all the time", I would strongly prefer seeing a list of instances where he has lied. The only one I can remember off the top of my head was when he missed Roy's sports match to speak to Right-Eye.

The only other one I can recall is when he agreed to contact Roy about Darth V, then burned the message.

You could make a case for the Being of Pure Law and Goodness impersonation, but that was more Shojo's idea, Eugene just helped.

Ultimately, I do think it is fair to say that Eugene is perfectly willing to lie and has no quams against it, but I think it is a mistake to assume everything he says is a lie, -especially- when the statement in question is on a detail which the person being lied to is fully aware of the truth anyway.

You can't convincingly lie to me and tell me I have six toes on my left foot, and Eugene can't convincingly lie to Roy and tell him he is the highest level good character if Roy knows darn well he isn't.

[Kish]

If you had typed "lies all the time" twice intentionally to create a double negative in order to imply Eugene doesn't lie all the time, then ignore this post. I am assuming that was a typo :)

Both assumptions are wrong. It's not a typo and it's not a double negative (nor is that how a double negative would work; it would be a "double negative" if I had written "Eugene doesn't not tell the truth all the time").

I disagree with this.

Yes, I get that.

It is impossible to know everything, and so we -must- work with the best information presently at hand.

And you have an inexplicable aversion to the phrase, "We don't know." Very often, that is the best information at hand. As I have argued before, this thread should be parsimonious, not claiming knowledge we do not have because "anything's better than nothing."

Yeah... because Eugene's assessment of Haley, Elan, and Durkon's level respective to Roy is completely invalidated due to Soon's unforeseen arrival... why?

Eugene didn't say, "You are higher level than Haley, Elan, or Durkon." He said, "You were the highest level Good character on the field."

There was a higher level Good character on the field.

...Therefore what Eugene said was wrong. Is this somehow ambiguous to you? Are you under the impression Roy is higher level than Soon?

[zimmerwald1915]

None of this should matter in the slightest. Roy, Elan, Durkon, and Haley could all be level 13, "the field" could be restricted to the space contested by the hobgoblin and Azure City armies before the latter broke, and Roy could still be considered "the highest level good character on the field". He would not be the only highest level good character on the field, but he would still be at the top of the list. Eugene's statement does not preclude ties.

[Lothston]

I've said before it makes sense to revisit our assumptions, so what do you guys think: Should we now assume the disarmee/tripee/graplee not making an AoO means the disarmer/triper/grapler has the Improved [action] feat, or should we continue needing other proof of it?

We should continue needing other evidence.

The absence of an AoO, to which Roy would otherwise have been entitled, is perfectly straightforward evidence of the feat, imo. There was absolutely no reason for Roy to forego his AoO for this round, since Tarquin's the only enemy he's fighting, and a clear and present danger to the party.

The AoO rules are very much not the sort of thing Rich is scrupulously precise about.

This last comic is itself a clear indication that Rich, indeed, pays attention to the AoO mechanic. And we can't know what feats he actually assigned to the characters, apart from the rare cases when they're openly named in the comic: even with overwhelming evidence, we can only infer.

Even if Rich didn't plan for Tarquin to have Improved Trip, the way he wrote the comic, Tarquin has Improved Trip. And since Rich wrote Tarquin actually tripping Roy as an attack, I'd say he at least looked up what tripping involves in D&D.

BTW, this is totally in line with Tarquin's "intelligent Fighter" concept: remember how he strategically uses Bull Rush and Bluffed Feint coupled with Disarm on previous occasions. The last one is also good evidence of Tarquin having Improved Feint due to him making a bluff check and an attack in the same turn.

[Math_Mage]

When it comes to Eugene's statement, the relevant question is not "Is it true?" but "Is it true ENOUGH to sting Roy?" I submit that Soon's presence doesn't lessen the sting one bit, simply because Roy's death occurred before Soon's appearance, and because Soon could not be expected to lead the fight, being absent until the throne room was all but overrun. At the other extreme, if Roy were not higher level than Hinjo, then the statement would carry no weight at all; we can safely assume Roy is higher level than Hinjo with Eugene's word as evidence (though it's not the ONLY evidence we have; consider their fights with post-Fall Miko, for example).

When considering the rest of the Order, there's an additional wrinkle, which is that as the Order's leader Roy bears a lot of responsibility for their actions no matter the actual level disparity. That might not weigh as heavily on Eugene's mind in making the statement, as Eugene is less than savvy about relationships of all kinds, but it would certainly weigh on Roy's. This is why I say that Eugene's statement rules out a party member being higher level than Roy, but not necessarily a party member being the same level as Roy.

In any event, whatever the correct interpretation turns out to be, I can't see it putting Roy higher than 14th level at the time of his death. I mean, where could he have gained XP without his party? The fight with post-Fall Miko, maybe...and he slept through the latter half of Linear Guild round 2, so that evens out.

[FujinAkari]

And you have an inexplicable aversion to the phrase, "We don't know." Very often, that is the best information at hand. As I have argued before, this thread should be parsimonious, not claiming knowledge we do not have because "anything's better than nothing."

But we do know. We have information presented to us in the strip without any indication that it is incorrect. Both characters present are in a position to be able to verify said information and neither contest it.

Eugene didn't say, "You are higher level than Haley, Elan, or Durkon." He said, "You were the highest level Good character on the field."

There was a higher level Good character on the field.

As you already admitted, Eugene may not have seen Soon. If he wasn't looking at that part of the battle at that moment, he would be entirely unaware of Soon.

Eugene DOES know abotu Elan, Durkon, and Haley (and Hinjo, and Lien, etc). Your contention is that Eugene's not knowing about Soon somehow invalidates his assessment of the rest of the OOTS, I am merely noting thatthat contention is flawed.

...Therefore what Eugene said was wrong. Is this somehow ambiguous to you? Are you under the impression Roy is higher level than Soon?

No, are you somehow under the impression that Roy's future psychic levels are genetic and therefore Eugene MUST have known about Soon? :)

[RMS Oceanic]

Question: is this the only explanation we could find within the rules, or merely the best-looking one?

Robilar's Gambit from PHB2 was proposed as another explanation for the AoO, but I disagree with it. RG says you resolve your AoO before your opponent strikes, and in the comic it's clear Roy attacks and misses before Tarquin responds, which is the order that Sidestep Charge dictates things happen. I may have missed it, but I didn't notice another explanation for how Tarquin did this.

Speaking of best-looking explanation, what's your opinion on the Arrow Snatching? I initially marked it as the feat and its prerequisites, but then my attention was drawn to the magic item. Is that enough to withdraw the feat entry, or would you say it's better to assume the feat until the magic item can be proven?

[Kish]

As you already admitted, Eugene may not have seen Soon.

Admitted? You're the one arguing we should treat Eugene as authoritative!

Eugene DOES know abotu Elan, Durkon, and Haley (and Hinjo, and Lien, etc).

Eugene knows the exact levels of everyone on the field except the epic-level one, but doesn't know that the epic-level one is there? That's an oddly specific level of quasi-omniscientness you're giving SoonEugene.

[Oscredwin]

Soon wasn't "on the field" or even the plane until after Roy died.

[Gitman00]

Admitted? You're the one arguing we should treat Eugene as authoritative!

Eugene knows the exact levels of everyone on the field except the epic-level one, but doesn't know that the epic-level one is there? That's an oddly specific level of quasi-omniscientness you're giving Soon.

As has already been pointed out more than once, Soon wasn't on the field at the same time as Roy. He didn't appear until Roy was already dead.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[zimmerwald1915]

Speaking of best-looking explanation, what's your opinion on the Arrow Snatching? I initially marked it as the feat and its prerequisites, but then my attention was drawn to the magic item. Is that enough to withdraw the feat entry, or would you say it's better to assume the feat until the magic item can be proven?

We have seen characters wearing gloves in OOTS. Namely, Thor has been seen wearing gloves, as has, if you want a more human-sized example, the Azurite blacksmith. We also know that Haley isn't wearing gloves of dexterity.

[Kish]

As has already been pointed out more than once, Soon wasn't on the field at the same time as Roy. He didn't appear until Roy was already dead.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Ah. So now "Eugene says Roy was the highest level Good character on the field while referring to the Battle for Azure City, without the words 'until you died,' without so much as a hint that his claim stops when Roy dies, without any indication of how Eugene knows the exact levels--or alignments, for that matter--of everyone-who-is-not-Soon" means "Roy was officially the highest level Good character on the field up until he died."

Is it, in your eyes, in fact possible for Eugene to have been either wrong or lying?

[zimmerwald1915]

Ah. So now "Eugene says Roy was the highest level Good character on the field while referring to the Battle for Azure City, without the words 'until you died,' without so much as a hint that his claim stops when Roy dies, without any indication of how Eugene knows the exact levels--or alignments, for that matter--of everyone-who-is-not-Soon" means "Roy was officially the highest level Good character on the field up until he died."

Is it, in your eyes, in fact possible for Eugene to have been either wrong or lying?

Even if Eugene is not wrong or lying, it is still possible for all the Order to have been the same level at the time of Roy's death. Really, the fact that the argument for Roy being higher level than the rest of the Order depends pretty much only on Eugene's statement here, and that Eugene's statement is the only thing that goes against the evidence that the Order was equally-leveled before the Battle of Azure City, should lay the argument that Roy was higher-level before the Battle to rest once and for all. That it doesn't is testament to the willingness of people in general to waste time on the Internet.

[Chronos]

Another example where Eugene lied was where he told his children he met their mother in the library, when it was actually in a bar.

[RMS Oceanic]

We have seen characters wearing gloves in OOTS. Namely, Thor has been seen wearing gloves, as has, if you want a more human-sized example, the Azurite blacksmith. We also know that Haley isn't wearing gloves of dexterity.

Excellent point! I'm used to wondering whether they're wearing rings and stuff, which isn't nearly as apparent.

What do people thing about including Sidestep Charge? Are there any other explanations I've missed?

[Xapi]

Ah. So now "Eugene says Roy was the highest level Good character on the field while referring to the Battle for Azure City, without the words 'until you died,' without so much as a hint that his claim stops when Roy dies, without any indication of how Eugene knows the exact levels--or alignments, for that matter--of everyone-who-is-not-Soon" means "Roy was officially the highest level Good character on the field up until he died."

Is it, in your eyes, in fact possible for Eugene to have been either wrong or lying?

I'd argue that the Throne Room is not the field.

IE: Soon was not in the field, Soon should not matter, and the actual war for the control of the city was won by RC and his goblin army against The SG, the OotS and the Azure City army.

So I don't think Eugene was wrong, nor lying.

[Math_Mage]

Ah. So now "Eugene says Roy was the highest level Good character on the field while referring to the Battle for Azure City, without the words 'until you died,' without so much as a hint that his claim stops when Roy dies, without any indication of how Eugene knows the exact levels--or alignments, for that matter--of everyone-who-is-not-Soon" means "Roy was officially the highest level Good character on the field up until he died."

Is it, in your eyes, in fact possible for Eugene to have been either wrong or lying?

Soon is irrelevant. There is no possibility of the Azure City invasion being Soon's fight to lose, and no possibility that Soon can bear responsibility for how badly it went--even in the part he could control, his ultimate failure was due to Miko's untimely intervention right when he was about to succeed. Since these are the points on which Eugene is needling Roy, neither Eugene nor Roy has any reason to consider Soon in the context of their conversation.

[FujinAkari]

Admitted? You're the one arguing we should treat Eugene as authoritative!

Yes, but we do have to take into account that he is speaking from the information he knows.

Eugene knows the exact levels of everyone on the field except the epic-level one, but doesn't know that the epic-level one is there? That's an oddly specific level of quasi-omniscientness you're giving Soon.

I assume you mean Eugene.

Again, look at what we -know- he knows. He has had access to epic level scrying and has been keeping a close watch on the Order. He is extremely familiar with their abilities in combat and is very much in a position to discuss Roy's level in comparison to the others.

He also is known to have been scrying at the time Miko attacked Shojo, so he is aware of Hinjo's power level. He may not specifically know about Lien, but he knows that Miko is the strongest Paladin, and Roy is either a little stronger, or just as strong as her. ((She may not be a good character at this point, making his statement still true in case of a tie))

So there we have the set up, Eugene has scried out the city and knows a lot about the principle combatants. He did not, however, know about Soon... but why is that surprising? Soon doesn't show up to the battle except for about five minutes at the end, and unless Eugene happens to look in the throneroom right then, of course he wouldn't be able to account for Soon.

So then the question becomes: Did Eugene look in the throneroom?

Well... likely not. Roy was standing right next to him and yet the only comment either of them make regarding Miko is that she killed Shojo, which leads me to believe they didn't see her effectively save Xykon's life.

[rgrekejin]

We have seen characters wearing gloves in OOTS. Namely, Thor has been seen wearing gloves, as has, if you want a more human-sized example, the Azurite blacksmith. We also know that Haley isn't wearing gloves of dexterity.

I don't know that you can take that as certain evidence that Tarquin isn't wearing gloves or gauntlets of some sort, though. I mean, we know Durkon is wearing full plate, which comes with gauntlets as per the description, but we don't see those. However, it also comes with a helmet in the description, which he is clearly not wearing, so perhaps I am making a silly argument.

...also, we don't know for sure that Haley isn't wearing gloves of dexterity, just that she is not wearing gloves of dexterity +6. I'd frankly be a little surprised if she had none at all.

[Emanick]

Even if Eugene is not wrong or lying, it is still possible for all the Order to have been the same level at the time of Roy's death. Really, the fact that the argument for Roy being higher level than the rest of the Order depends pretty much only on Eugene's statement here, and that Eugene's statement is the only thing that goes against the evidence that the Order was equally-leveled before the Battle of Azure City, should lay the argument that Roy was higher-level before the Battle to rest once and for all. That it doesn't is testament to the willingness of people in general to waste time on the Internet.

I don't think that's a very valid interpretation. Aside from the fact that "the highest level character" heavily implies the absence of a tie, Eugene's point is that Roy's level gives him a degree of responsibility for the result of the battle. If Roy was the same level as everybody else in the Order, Eugene would have no reason to point that out in the course of his guilt-tripping. Why would a 13th level fighter bear more responsibility for the battle's outcome than a 13th level cleric?

[Flame of Anor]

I guess what really blew Tarquin's mind was the idea that Elan is actually not keen on engaging him in dramatic 1-on-1 combat, thereby sinking the "ideal final standoff between father and son" which Tarquin seems to be aiming for.

Well, no wonder Elan isn't keen on engaging him in dramatic 1-on-1 combat, he thinks it's Thog. Tarquin should not be surprised at this.

Claiming that a character who lies all the time lies all the time is exactly as correct as claiming that his claims should be treated as Word of God. Mm no.

If anyone is still confused by this sentence:

Eugene is, according to some, (a character who lies all the time).

Kish's sentence refers to the act of "Claiming that (a character who lies all the time) lies all the time". It's intentionally tautologous.

[Math_Mage]

I don't think that's a very valid interpretation. Aside from the fact that "the highest level character" heavily implies the absence of a tie, Eugene's point is that Roy's level gives him a degree of responsibility for the result of the battle. If Roy was the same level as everybody else in the Order, Eugene would have no reason to point that out in the course of his guilt-tripping. Why would a 13th level fighter bear more responsibility for the battle's outcome than a 13th level cleric?

Because he's the party leader and therefore bears some responsibility for the others' actions as well. I could have sworn I'd said that a couple of times already...*checks*...by golly, I did. How about that.

I mean, what's Roy going to say. "Haley's level 13 too, Dad!" "And she follows you. So you're a crappy leader as well as a waste of PC levels."

If we discard the assumption that the Order remains equally leveled while traveling together, this argument deteriorates further. Of the three other Good members of the Order, only Elan is confirmed 13 by the time of the invasion. Nobody can seriously argue that Roy would consider Elan an acceptable substitute to bear responsibility for the battle's outcome. So 13+ is still the best we can get for Roy without the stated assumption.

Indeed, Durkon and Haley aren't exceptionally suited for responsible leadership roles either (though Haley has to learn fast afterwards, for the Resistance). If not Roy, then who? Well...Hinjo, I guess. Which just feeds back into Eugene's point. Roy is higher level than anyone else who could be considered responsible for the battle, and more responsible than anyone else who could be considered high level. Add in Eugene's noted tendency to, shall we say, play with the truth...and his statement is not so solid after all.

[Sith_Happens]

Robilar's Gambit from PHB2 was proposed as another explanation for the AoO, but I disagree with it. RG says you resolve your AoO before your opponent strikes, and in the comic it's clear Roy attacks and misses before Tarquin responds, which is the order that Sidestep Charge dictates things happen. I may have missed it, but I didn't notice another explanation for how Tarquin did this.

Actually, you got that the wrong way for Robilar's Gambit: it specifically says that your AoO comes after the attack that provoked it. I would still definitely go with Sidestep Charge in this case though, because
1. OotS very rarely uses non-core material, much less non-SRD material, so when presented with two possible explanations it's much better to go with the SRD one.
2. What Tarquin did unambiguously looks like a sidestep charge, while the visual cue for Robilar's Gambit is much more subtle (although his stance in the last panel of 850 does look like it might qualify).
3. Tarquin's AC has been shown to be quite high, but I seriously doubt it's not-get-hit-by-a-charging-fighter-while-using-Robilar's-Gambit high.

[zimmerwald1915]

Something to note about Sidestep Charge: its description does not say a fighter can take it as a fighter bonus feat. If Tarquin has it, it's in his level 18, level 15, level 12, level 9, level 6, level 3, level 1, or human bonus feat slot. Granted, this doesn't tell us much, but it's something.

As for the dwarf-toss, has the Martial Throw feat from the Miniatures Handbook been considered as a possible explanation?

[sgtpimenta]

Actually, if you look at most of the arguments, none of them mention XP at all. Only levels. I'm certainly not counting XP here.

Well… when you say things like “where could he have gained XP without his party?”, you gotta understand the reason I say people keep asking about XP.

Oh, and about Roy being level 17+… I really have said that, when we first begun this discussion, but I changed my mind. I still think that he’s level 16+, but I agree that being 17+ is unlikely.

There are two questions here: "Is that an attack from Roy?", and "Is it in the same round as the following panels"?

The answer to the first question is unclear. Both characters are in attacking positions--well, except that Roy's sword swing is nowhere near where Thog would be without blocking, whereas Thog's axe is on a path to Roy without blocking.

That’s because Thog is leaning away to avoid Roy’s attack. He is clearly in a defensive position (his upper body inclined backwards, the axe positioned to hold the sword’s movement). Thog's position is pretty much the same as shown in the panel above this one, where he is dodging.

The same reasoning certainly applies to the latter two panels you cite in #795--Roy making continuous attacks with Thog using his axe to block, and Roy finally breaking through on the third attack. However, the first panel has both characters in entirely different positions, set up so one can't even tell who's attacking.

One can always argue that The Giant is not drawing a single round here, but that would lead to the question: "why isn't Thog attacking back". 'Cause he's not.

Roy is in a different position in this panel because he's drawn in the movement between positions, shifting from the dodge shown last panel to a more aggressive behavior. His dialog reflects that shift: at the same panel, he gives an example of not- opposites (as he was doing last panel), then he presented his closing arguments. His attacks against Thog begins with him yelling "NO! That's not a good point". He will finish this sequence with another furious yell ("NOTHING!").

Each panel shows, closer and closer, a slightly different position of both characters: Roy is increasingly offensive (he's beating down Thog with both sword and words) and Thog, on the other hand, is portrayed increasingly vulnerable (he seems harmless at first, then scared, then hurt). He don't even have a chance to answer (neither with a line or a swing of his axe).

The relative positions of both character also changes: Roy is shown in a higher and higher position each passing panel - which is a visual clue used by the artist to further reinforce the idea of gradual victory over Thog. These gradual changes reinforce the sense of continuity and movement, binding these panels together in a single sequence.

[Emanick]

Because he's the party leader and therefore bears some responsibility for the others' actions as well. I could have sworn I'd said that a couple of times already...*checks*...by golly, I did. How about that.

I was aware that you said that, but the fact that he's the party leader is irrelevant in the context of Eugene's statement, because it has nothing to do with his level. Eugene has absolutely no reason to point out that Roy is the highest-level character on the field unless he is arguing that Roy being higher level than the other Good characters makes him responsible, in some way, for the fall of Azure City. At no time does Eugene mention the fact that Roy leads his party, unless you count his use of the phrase "your ineffective leadership," a phrase he uses in a conclusion rather than an argument.

I mean, what's Roy going to say. "Haley's level 13 too, Dad!" "And she follows you. So you're a crappy leader as well as a waste of PC levels."

If we discard the assumption that the Order remains equally leveled while traveling together, this argument deteriorates further. Of the three other Good members of the Order, only Elan is confirmed 13 by the time of the invasion. Nobody can seriously argue that Roy would consider Elan an acceptable substitute to bear responsibility for the battle's outcome. So 13+ is still the best we can get for Roy without the stated assumption.

Control Weather is a 7th level spell, which we know Durkon could cast by this point in time. And most people agree that clerics are more powerful than fighters. Aside from this, Word of Giant from one of the sourcebooks - I can't remember which - calls Durkon "even more competent/responsible (can't remember which word) than Roy."

So if you assume that Eugene is simply making stuff up - fully aware that Roy can call him out for lying - when he calls Roy "the highest level character," the only thing he could say if Roy said "now you're just inventing random nonsense" would be "Well, you technically lead the party!" But Eugene's point is that "with great power comes great blame." (Or at least that's how Roy interprets it, and Eugene agrees with this interpretation.) If Roy is not the most powerful member of the party in some sense, then nothing Eugene says here makes any sense.

Indeed, Durkon and Haley aren't exceptionally suited for responsible leadership roles either (though Haley has to learn fast afterwards, for the Resistance). If not Roy, then who? Well...Hinjo, I guess. Which just feeds back into Eugene's point. Roy is higher level than anyone else who could be considered responsible for the battle, and more responsible than anyone else who could be considered high level. Add in Eugene's noted tendency to, shall we say, play with the truth...and his statement is not so solid after all.

First, Eugene only "plays with the truth" when he knows the person he is talking to does not know the facts. Lying to somebody's face when they already know the truth is mind-bogglingly stupid. I don't know why anybody is still arguing that Eugene is lying about the Order's levels here - the notion that Eugene somehow has more knowledge about the OOTS's levels than Roy does is absurd. (Roy, as a responsible and detail-oriented commander, presumably knows the levels of his colleagues.)

Second, Haley is a fine leader herself. Rich calls her "a natural leader" in the DSTP commentary. I agree that Roy is higher level than anyone else who could be considered responsible for the battle, and more responsible than anyone else who could be considered high level, but only marginally so. If we were to assume equal levels, we would have to conclude that, contrary to Eugene's assertion, Durkon is both more responsible and more powerful than Roy. Haley is also a good leader and is probably the same level as most of the rest of the party (I see no reason why she would be substantially behind Roy, Vaarsuvius, Elan and Durkon in XP). In short, at least one member of the Order is equal to or even surpasses Roy in every metric that counts, except level and actual leadership status. And Eugene hasn't mentioned Roy's role as head of the party. He has mentioned Roy's level.