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  1. - Top - End - #1051
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Well, if there were an Aristocrat Who Doesn't Care About Attacking But Wants Every Possible Bonus To Defense class I'd consider that a likely enough choice to put it on the list.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    He didn't specify a name for the prestige class. So, to list one, you'd need to prove a negative. ("I assert that there is no other prestige class in all the D&D books and the imagination of Rich Burlew to which Kubota could have been referring!")
    Eh. We can still give reasonable priority to Core > Noncore > Homebrew when looking for (Ex): Fool magical lie detection abilities. I think Gift Jeraff is more wondering if there is ANY class that reasonably fits the bill than if there is a class that has been DEFINITIVELY pinned down as Kubota's prestige class.
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  3. - Top - End - #1053
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I'd further note that, as I've said in the past, we really don't know whether the ninjas seen in the comic actually had any sort of ninja class or not.
    Agreed. I’m not convinced that Therkla is an actual Ninja, as far as her character class is concerned. Maybe she’s a ninja without having a class with the word “NINJA” in the title (the same way Miko is a samurai).

    But I also agree with rgrekejin: without evidence, we shouldn’t assume non-core classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    From this strip, where everyone gains a level but Belkar, who was "a little behind us" at the start of the comic.
    That raises lots of questions about Elan's accuracy. Is he a good enough source of information about his colleagues? Does he know about every companion's total XP? That's not likely. He is admitedly guessing ("I guess you were a little behind us").
    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Fair enough.* Understand, though, that it's merely an intermediate way of saying "The party is equally leveled and faces equal challenges, so should level equally.
    The assertion that the whole party should be at the same level is hardly a fact – after all, we are having a colorful discussion about Roy-being-higher-level-than-the-party-at-the-time-of-his-death. So far, there is no consensus about it and your position shouldn't be taken as a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Actually, it's much closer to his position in the previous panel (where he was attacking), just rotated.* Again, ambiguous.* Is he starting an attack, or trying to block?
    …really? Now I'm confused. Are you talking about the panel 3 in the second page of #795? 'Cause there are important differences between panel 3 and panel 4:

    • In the panel 4, Thog’s body and weapon are positioned (almost) vertically. Thog’s upper body is inclined backwards (away from Roy), and his axe is raised - the same happens in the panel above (first panel of this page).
    • In the third panel (immediately before this sequence) Thog’s body and axe are leaned forward in Roy’s direction. Thog’s torso and weapon are positioned horizontally.


    A little rotation goes a long way: most of the time, that's how we know that some one is attacking, dodging or running. By rotating Thog while keeping him exactly in the same position, the artist can show us that he haven't made his saving throw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Why did Thog and Roy spend a panel just looking at each other and not attacking?* There's no clear indication that every action is being tracked until Roy starts his overhead attack routine.
    Talking is a free action. And we already know that The Giant does not shows every single action most of the time - so the previous sequence (Roy and Thog taking turns to attack each other) is not so different from others that we have already seem, and doesn't add anything new in this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    In the next strip, the end of Roy's unarmed full attack also constitutes the beginning of a single sequence establishing Thog's dominance, but nobody could argue that it was actually Thog's attack.
    Actually, he is. Thog is starting a grapple attack so he can throw Roy away - as shown in the next panel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    There's no clear correspondence between a single "sequence" and a single round.* Especially true when you haven't adequately defined a sequence or why we should care about it
    It resumes to this: I have presented plenty visual and textual elements showing shows 4 attacks in one single round in #795. I don't see how the strips you quoted have anything to do with this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    The mere fact that this is a discussion where both points of view can legitimately be held (at least where that specific round is concerned) only illustrates how this evidence is not as good as other full-attack evidence.* In those cases, every attack was unambiguously an attack by the same character in the same round
    I can not agree when you say your position has been legimately held. The images are drawn in a clear and efficient way - your single opinion, by itself, does not contradict this. The fact that you can't see the visual elements in the aforemetioned strip are not enough to call it ambiguous.
    Last edited by sgtpimenta; 2012-05-04 at 08:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Eh. We can still give reasonable priority to Core > Noncore > Homebrew when looking for (Ex): Fool magical lie detection abilities. I think Gift Jeraff is more wondering if there is ANY class that reasonably fits the bill than if there is a class that has been DEFINITIVELY pinned down as Kubota's prestige class.
    Yeah, it was just a curiosity question that seemed partially relevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    elan: dad plz dont kill roy
    tarquin: ok
    Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for #917.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    That raises lots of questions about Elan's accuracy. Is he a good enough source of information about his colleagues? Does he know about every companion's total XP? That's not likely. He is admitedly guessing ("I guess you were a little behind us").
    Levels =/= XP.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    The assertion that the whole party should be at the same level is hardly a fact – after all, we are having a colorful discussion about Roy-being-higher-level-than-the-party-at-the-time-of-his-death. So far, there is no consensus about it and your position shouldn't be taken as a fact.
    Since that doesn't actually relate to what I said, I'll ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    …really? Now I'm confused. Are you talking about the panel 3 in the second page of #795? 'Cause there are important differences between panel 3 and panel 4:

    • In the panel 4, Thog’s body and weapon are positioned (almost) vertically. Thog’s upper body is inclined backwards (away from Roy), and his axe is raised - the same happens in the panel above (first panel of this page).
    • In the third panel (immediately before this sequence) Thog’s body and axe are leaned forward in Roy’s direction. Thog’s torso and weapon are positioned horizontally.


    A little rotation goes a long way: most of the time, that's how we know that some one is attacking, dodging or running. By rotating Thog while keeping him exactly in the same position, the artist can show us that he haven't made his saving throw.
    Hold Person is a special case that enforces a body position short of rotation, so does not have a meaningful relation to this scene. The rest is just a long way of saying "He was simply rotated from his previous attack, but I think that's more different than the change in posture from his previous block."

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    Talking is a free action. And we already know that The Giant does not shows every single action most of the time - so the previous sequence (Roy and Thog taking turns to attack each other) is not so different from others that we have already seem, and doesn't add anything new in this discussion.
    So what lends weight to your opinion that this panel is part of the following sequence rather than the preceding sequence?

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    Actually, he is. Thog is starting a grapple attack so he can throw Roy away - as shown in the next panel.
    No. Roy makes three unarmed attacks. The last panel could be considered as Thog taking his AoO in RESPONSE to Roy's attack, but it's still unambiguously Roy's punch. Left, right, left--*grab*.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    It resumes to this: I have presented plenty visual and textual elements showing shows 4 attacks in one single round in #795. I don't see how the strips you quoted have anything to do with this discussion.
    You claim they're part of a sequence, then that being part of a sequence shows that they're part of the same round, without making the connection between what makes them part of a sequence and what makes them part of the same round. As I just noted, Roy's third unarmed attack is also the beginning of Thog's sequence, but that doesn't make it Thog's round. For my part, I see the panel in question as fitting better with the previous row, if we're making distinctions between "sequences" of some kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    I can not agree when you say your position has been legimately held. The images are drawn in a clear and efficient way - your single opinion, by itself, does not contradict this. The fact that you can't see the visual elements in the aforemetioned strip are not enough to call it ambiguous.
    Since I've spent a good deal of time discussing said visual elements, your agreement or lack thereof would seem to be predicated on your wish to be right, rather than a coherent view of the discussion.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-04 at 09:28 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Not the current conservation I know but this bothering me
    Do we necessarily know that Tsukiko is a cleric the comic nor Rich has stated it there's nothing the prerequisites in Mystic Theurge that excludes any other divine class so while cleric is most likely she still could be a Archvist, Favored Soul and even (hypothetically really unlikely though) a Druid, Ranger, Blackguard, Shugenda, or a Spirit Shaman. While most of these are ridiculously unlikely, the point it is never stated she's a cleric so it would probably be better to say Any Divine Spell-caster 3+
    Sorry if this has been pointed out before but I felt the need to say it
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I think comic 516, specifically the comment about Turning Paladins in First Edition, implies that Tsukiko has the Rebuke Undead ability. That's pretty strong evidence that Tsukiko's divine casting class is cleric.
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  8. - Top - End - #1058
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    In addition, I believe it's been explicitly stated that she draws her divine magic from the Twelve Gods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Was Kubota's aristocrat-friendly prestige class based on an actual class?
    Some prestige classes get extraordinary abilities that boost their Bluff checks (thrall of Baalzebul, for example) but it's hard to think of any that gain total immunity to the effect of spells like Zone of Truth.

    Since Zone of Truth is technically a Mind-Affecting spell, anything that grants Mind Blank as an extraordinary ability would qualify.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Some prestige classes get extraordinary abilities that boost their Bluff checks (thrall of Baalzebul, for example) but it's hard to think of any that gain total immunity to the effect of spells like Zone of Truth.

    Since Zone of Truth is technically a Mind-Affecting spell, anything that grants Mind Blank as an extraordinary ability would qualify.
    The best fit I can think of or find is the Spymaster class from Complete Adventurer. Taking levels in it gives you a certain number of cover identities, which become capable of fooling any and all divinations at the highest (7th) level of the class. Nothing says that one of your cover identities can't be "yourself, except not an evil mastermind," and the prerequisites consist entirely of ranks in Aristocrat class skills.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    Yeah, this seems like an eminently reasonable conclusion to me. Rich has used very few non-core things, and almost all of them were in throwaway gags that specifically drew attention to themself (with one or two very notable exceptions).
    [...]
    There are of course additional non-core shoutouts (Redcloak's three skeletal minions, Tsukiko's non-core spells, Thog's Dungeoncrasher ability and the acid-born shark come to mind), but they've been specifically called out each time, either in-comic or on these forums by Rich. Something as substantive as the actual class of a major antagonist would be unlikely to rely on a niche rulebook from the 3.5 system...
    [...]
    So unless we at some point get specific in-comic mention of Tarquin being a martial adept of some sort, Rich explicitly says he is one here, or he does something that simply cannot be explained through any other mechanism, Tarquin should not be assumed have a Tome of Battle class.
    To be fair, Tarquin's knowledge of "obscure" combat techniques has been lampshaded in the comic on several occasions. If any major character in OoTS is going to have Martial Adept levels, Tarquin is the most probable candidate.

    But, again, there are simply too many alternatives in the "normal", non-ToB fighter mechanics that can be used as an explanation. Fling Enemy, Martial Throw, Defensive Throw...

    If Tarquin has something similar to "powerful build" (a possible houserule for a human warrior with superhuman strength), then the elegant combination of Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Knockback + Dungeoncrasher is possible, which would explain the dwarf-tossing with 100% accuracy. And incidentally, with the addition of Shock Trooper and Combat Brute, would turn Tarquin into one of the most powerful melee builds.

    The things from the Tome of Battle are rather clearly invented just for DnD, and would not be immediately clear to someone who wasn't familiar with that rather specific niche splatbook.
    Again, to be fair, mechanic-wise all things in D&D were invented for D&D.

    Personally, I would love to see Tarquin have adept levels. But not before the Fighter and other core melee classes have been completely wrought dry for combat capability.

    In fact, from the powergaming perspective, ToB is actually not so great. It's widely assumed to be a "balancing" book so that melee classes can fare better against magic-users; but truth be told, "out of the box" ToB stuff is just not so powerful compared to some of the optimised core classes builds (with supplementary material, of course).

    E.g. an ECL 14 Human Ranger 1 [non-spellcasting, Solitary Hunter]/Fighter 10 [Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Soldier]/Barbarian 1 [lion totem]/Cloistered Cleric 1 [Magic domain for Wand of Wraithstrike + Knowledge Devotion + Travel Devotion]/Ordained Champion 1 with an item of continuous Enlarge Person would likely be a much better melee warrior than Crusader 20, Warblade 20 or Swordsage 20.

    Of course, the above-mentioned multiclass build would benefit greatly from 1-2 levels of Warblade/Swordsage.

    So what I would really like to see from Tarquin's "OP" build is creative use of regular mechanics rather than just copypaste from ToB.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothston View Post
    To be fair, Tarquin's knowledge of "obscure" combat techniques has been lampshaded in the comic on several occasions. If any major character in OoTS is going to have Martial Adept levels, Tarquin is the most probable candidate.
    I think that the quote about "obscure" combat techniques is kind of a weak justification for theories about Tarquin having martial adept levels, given that at the time it was said, it was referring to something (pun-dueling) which is clearly not something levels in a martial adept class are gonna help with. Now, I know that you're not really making the argument that "Tarquin said he knows obscure things, he MUST have martial adept levels, it all makes too much sense not to!", so I'm not going to pretend to have rebutted an argument that was never made, but, to me, the transition from "obscure combat techniques" to "martial adept" is too much of a reach without additional evidence.

    Again, to be fair, mechanic-wise all things in D&D were invented for D&D.
    Well, mechanics-wise, of course. The real world does not work on DnD mechanics. But the point I was making is that, if a ninja appeared in the comic, even people who don't know anything about the rules for DnD ninjas would have a fairly accurate understanding of what it could do, because hey, it's a ninja. They're fairly self-explanatory. If a samurai or a knight or a healer or some pirate class or something appears, people instantly recognize it and have a rough approximation of what it can do based on their knowledge of it from other media. But if a Blood Magus or a Green Star Adept or an Illithid Slayer, or, you know, a Swordsage, show up, a lot of people would understandably be confused by an obscure class that appears nowhere else in fiction save for the pages of DnD-related materials.

    Personally, I would love to see Tarquin have adept levels. But not before the Fighter and other core melee classes have been completely wrought dry for combat capability.
    I admit that I myself am not a huge fan of the Tome of Battle, and I really hope that Tarquin's abilities do not draw from it, especially since, as you illustrated, there's a lot of capacity for awesomeness in regular martial classes.
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-05-05 at 11:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Levels =/= XP.
    Yeah, but how is it related with the accuracity of Elan's assertion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Hold Person is a special case that enforces a body position short of rotation, so does not have a meaningful relation to this scene. The rest is just a long way of saying "He was simply rotated from his previous attack, but I think that's more different than the change in posture from his previous block."
    Are you saying that rotation of a character body is not meaningful? In that case, indulge me: how do you know that Thog is dodging in panel 1 (second page #795) and attacking in panel 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    So what lends weight to your opinion that this panel is part of the following sequence rather than the preceding sequence?
    This sequence, being the climax of this strip, is more detailed. There is more talking and we see the character in a close. Hence, each separated attack is shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    You claim they're part of a sequence, then that being part of a sequence shows that they're part of the same round, without making the connection between what makes them part of a sequence and what makes them part of the same round. As I just noted, Roy's third unarmed attack is also the beginning of Thog's sequence, but that doesn't make it Thog's round. For my part, I see the panel in question as fitting better with the previous row, if we're making distinctions between "sequences" of some kind.
    Isn't true that Thog's AoO would happen in during Roy's round? Is not possible that this may ended (prematurely) his full-attack?

    My point remains: we have not seen any indications that the four attacks happens in different rounds. In those other sequences you mention, we can see both opponents acting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Since I've spent a good deal of time discussing said visual elements, your agreement or lack thereof would seem to be predicated on your wish to be right, rather than a coherent view of the discussion.
    You talk about predicaments and wishing to be right, and yet you are the only one in this thread that seems to believe Thog is attacking in panel 4. Are your opinions a "coherent view of the discussion"?
    Last edited by sgtpimenta; 2012-05-05 at 02:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    You talk about predicaments and wishing to be right, and yet you are the only one in this thread that seems to believe Thog is attacking in panel 4. Are your opinions a "coherent view of the discussion"?
    I got here and stopped caring what you say. We're the only two who have even expressed opinions about that panel, and others have disagreed with you regarding the assertion that Roy made a full-round attack of four attacks, and you're trying for argument by popularity? And you can't even be bothered to understand the position I'm arguing?

    Nope. I'm done. Have fun with that.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-05 at 04:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    You talk about predicaments and wishing to be right, and yet you are the only one in this thread that seems to believe Thog is attacking in panel 4. Are your opinions a "coherent view of the discussion"?
    I agree with Math_Mage. I guess that means this argument is invalid.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    At this point in the discussion (refering to the discussion between Math_Mage and sgtpimenta), is it appropriate to invoke the same procedure invoked for discussions of Xykon's level? To wit, given the intransigence of each side, is it appropriate to default to the minimum possible stat/level that will explain the scene, regardless of the strength of the arguments?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    I think I need to clarify my position here:
    Roy is higher level than 99.9% of the Good people on the field + Roy is already the leader of the remaining 0.1% by agreement = Roy is the leader of the Good side, whether or not the remaining 0.1% are Roy's level.

    I should also reemphasize, I'm not really looking for a best explanation of this individual scene, I'm trying to create room to fit it into existing knowns, which is the next topic.
    Okay, fair enough. But you haven't demonstrated a compelling reason why Eugene must either be being loose with the truth or lying, and this thread's policy is to take characters at their word when they're talking about levels and such things, unless they're obviously being insincere or don't know what they're talking about. Yes, Roy can be said to be "the leader of the Good side," but that does nothing to make Eugene's assertion that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field less plausible.

    Do you still feel that Roy being level 14 at the time of his death doesn't fit with existing knowns?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    And you can't even be bothered to understand the position I'm arguing?

    Nope. I'm done. Have fun with that.
    Believe me, I was trying to understand your position. I am still trying to figure out how do you tell an attack from a dodge.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    I agree with Math_Mage. I guess that means this argument is invalid.
    My argument is that no side can take its own position as if it was "a coherent view of the discussion". I don't see how do you agreeing with MM invalidates that. Are you an impartial third party?
    Last edited by sgtpimenta; 2012-05-05 at 10:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    At this point in the discussion (refering to the discussion between Math_Mage and sgtpimenta), is it appropriate to invoke the same procedure invoked for discussions of Xykon's level? To wit, given the intransigence of each side, is it appropriate to default to the minimum possible stat/level that will explain the scene, regardless of the strength of the arguments?
    Anything that ends this nonsense is fine with me.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    You're going to have to wonder, sgt, because I'm ignoring your comments on that topic from this point out. It's not gonna be fun for us or the thread--it hasn't BEEN fun for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Okay, fair enough. But you haven't demonstrated a compelling reason why Eugene must either be being loose with the truth or lying, and this thread's policy is to take characters at their word when they're talking about levels and such things, unless they're obviously being insincere or don't know what they're talking about. Yes, Roy can be said to be "the leader of the Good side," but that does nothing to make Eugene's assertion that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field less plausible.

    Do you still feel that Roy being level 14 at the time of his death doesn't fit with existing knowns?
    My original position was that Roy could be either 13 or 14 at that point, based on correspondence with V's level. Since people have pointed out solo encounters for Roy since then, I'm comfortable with him being 14 at time of death.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-06 at 01:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    My original position was that Roy could be either 13 or 14 at that point, based on correspondence with V's level. Since people have pointed out solo encounters for Roy since then, I'm comfortable with him being 14 at time of death.
    Interestingly, either interpretation points to Roy being listed as level 13 now. If he was level 12 at the time of his resurrection, we could list him as level 13 now based on his having accrued enough XP to do so. If he was level 13 at the time of his resurrection (that is, level 14 at the time of his death), he would not have accrued enough XP to level to 14 based on the encounters we've seen.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Interestingly, either interpretation points to Roy being listed as level 13 now. If he was level 12 at the time of his resurrection, we could list him as level 13 now based on his having accrued enough XP to do so. If he was level 13 at the time of his resurrection (that is, level 14 at the time of his death), he would not have accrued enough XP to level to 14 based on the encounters we've seen.
    Hmmmm, you're right. I'm too lazy and tired to do the math now (it's after 3am here and I'm about to go to bed), but if Roy started at halfway through level 13 and only received XP from the encounters that Zimmerwald heroically calculated out, a good guess indicates that he should be just short of level 14 right now. Mind you, I expect that he probably IS level 14 - most DMs would have given Roy XP for some of the other things he's done since getting resurrected - but we have absolutely no proof of this. So he's level 13+, and the first post should be changed accordingly. After Girard's Gate, this can probably be adjusted to 14+, but we'll sack and burn that bridge when we come to it.

    I copied and pasted Zimmerwald's XP calculation below. Does someone want to redo the math for a level 13 Roy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Oh, and there is a geekery argument to be made that Roy should have advanced to level 13 by this point in the story. Unlike most arguments that are made here, this one actually works by counting XP!

    We know Roy's XP total at the time he was resurrected was 72,000 XP. Resurrection brings back a character midway between the XP necessary to earn the level at which they were brought back and the level they had attained prior to dying. D&D 3.5 characters level to 12 and 66,000 XP, and to 13 at 78,000 XP. So Roy was resurrected at 72,000 XP.

    We can then complie a list of encounters in which Roy took part since his resurrection. I have identified four, so far, that can unambiguously be construed as granting Roy XP: the encounter with the slavers, the encounter with the Purple Worm, the encounter with Girard's explosion trap, and the encounter with Thog. Here's how the XP breaks down:

    We don't know anything about the slavers, or about Buggy Lou apart from the fact that he appears to be wearing a holy symbol. Making the generic slavers regular ol' thri-kreen, and Buggy Lou a thri-kreen Cleric 1, means they're all too-low CR for Roy to have gained XP from defeating them. However, we know they ride 4 to a giant stag beetle and that they expect these stag beetles to carry away additional cargo in the form of captured slaves. We have grounds to advance the giant stag beetles to Huge size, and thus CR 6 each. That is high enough that Roy would gain XP from them. There were six advanced giant stag beetles present at the fight, which translates into 450 XP for Roy. He's now up to 72,650.

    The purple worm is easy. It's one creature, with a known CR, that doesn't need to be advanced to give Roy XP. Its defeat gives Roy 600 XP. He's now at 73,050.

    The explosion trap's a little difficult to assign a CR to, because we do not know which spell created it. But it acts enough like a Glyph of Warding (even though it cannot be since V did not see an Abjuration aura with Arcane Sight) that I feel comfortable assigning it a CR of 7. Surviving it gives Roy another 100 XP. He's up to 73,150.

    And now the big one. I'm calling Thog a CR 13 threat, since he should really match Roy in class levels. His singlehanded defeat by Roy should give Roy 5,400 XP. That would advance Roy to 78,550, putting Roy over the 78,000 needed to level to 13.

    And this is not even counting story awards for, for instance, tracking down Enor and Ganjii, finding Ian and Geoff, learning the truth about Tarquin, learning Tarquin's story about Orrin and the location of Windy Canyon, finding his way through the maze, bypassing the traps on the way up the ziggurat, or finding Girard's corpse. It's just counting fights, and not even all possible fights. It does not include Roy's smacking down Belkar (which if it did grant XP would have granted Roy 14,400 XP in one shot, and put him well on the way to level 14!), or the bar fight Roy started.

    In light of this analysis, I would like to propose that Roy's minimum level be changed to 13+, and that the table be changed to read as follows:

    {table]Level||||||
    9|12|12|12|12|12|12
    10|124|125|124|124|124|124
    11|251|???|201|???|???|186
    12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
    13|485, 809|???|556|393|511|397
    14|-|???|-|647|???|627
    15|-|???|-|-|615|716
    16|-|748|-|-|-|-[/table]
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I think that the ninjas we've seen really do have the Ninja class, since if "ninja" just meant "rogue who happens to be really sneaky and have an oriental flavor", it wouldn't be necessary to specifically include ninjas in the creation of the world.

    And there is one reference to Tome of Battle: In the 4e strips from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails (4th page, last panel), we have this
    4e!Roy: Which makes me wonder... With our Intelligence score, shouldn't you be a warblade or something?
    3e!Roy: You know as well as I do that Dad would never have paid for a Ph.D. program!
    Though that's about as weak a reference to a non-core class as you can get: One panel in an out-of-continuity strip that doesn't show a member of the class, nor even assert the existence of any specific one. It's consistent, actually, with Rich not having the book, since all it really says about it is that Warblade is a fighter-like class that benefits from a high Int score, which he could easily have picked up by osmosis.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    You're going to have to wonder, sgt, because I'm ignoring your comments on that topic from this point out. It's not gonna be fun for us or the thread--it hasn't BEEN fun for a while.
    I'm sure that's the best way you have to uphold your position. It's not like you don't have real arguments to prove your point, right?

    Just don't tell me you have objectively better evidences. Objectivity is not something based in one single opinion. And if you can't tell between two different images, well... maybe we shouldn't have begun this discussion in the first place.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Don't forget to up Thog to 14 for a level 13 Roy. That could put it over the edge (though I doubt it).

    I agree with Chronos about the ninjas. Dunno about having or not having ToB, but an optimized Fighter still fits better with T's apparent pile of feats. What was the last thought on the AoO throw?

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtpimenta View Post
    maybe we shouldn't have begun this discussion in the first place.
    Finally, some sense from the man! Were it not wedded to a snide attitude and yet more misinterpretation of preceding posts, we might find something we agree upon! Good day.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-06 at 10:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I really wish I could accept zimmerwald's analysis on the matter. However, my position is that his assumptions are reasonable, but uncertain assumptions none the less. Therefore, while Roy is likely to be 13+, we only have conclusive evidence for him being 12+. It seems to me that he can't be far away from level 13 now, though.
    Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-06 at 11:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Correct me if I'm wrong if I did my math correctly than Miko has enough feats in order for her to be least level 21, (yeah I counted the Human bonus feat, and none of the feats we know she has are the Monk Bonus feats and Paladins have no bonus feats) Any other explanation for this. Because despite seeming strong being Epic level seems a bit of stretch.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by weso12 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong if I did my math correctly than Miko has enough feats in order for her to be least level 21, (yeah I counted the Human bonus feat, and none of the feats we know she has are the Monk Bonus feats and Paladins have no bonus feats) Any other explanation for this. Because despite seeming strong being Epic level seems a bit of stretch.
    Stunning Fist is a Monk bonus feat. And Rich probably houseruled around IUS because the RAW Monk isn't proficient with her fists, which is ridiculous. At any rate, Miko was no higher than level 15 (three main-hand attacks).
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Stunning Fist is a Monk bonus feat. And Rich probably houseruled around IUS because the RAW Monk isn't proficient with her fists, which is ridiculous. At any rate, Miko was no higher than level 15 (three main-hand attacks).
    This, basically. We could break it down in a hypothetical build progression if that helps explain it:

    Level 1: Track, Power Attack (H), Stunning Fist (M), Improved Unarmed Strike (M)
    Level 2: Unknown bonus feat (M)
    Level 3: EWP: Katana
    Level 6: Two Weapon Fighting
    Level 9: Cleave
    Level 12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Level 15: Quick Draw

    Does that make sense?
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