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  1. - Top - End - #1081
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Don't forget to up Thog to 14 for a level 13 Roy. That could put it over the edge (though I doubt it).
    It doesn't. A level 13 Roy wouldn't get any XP from the advanced giant stag beetles or from a CR7 trap. Fighting a level 14 Thog would not give him enough to advance to 14.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    I really wish I could accept zimmerwald's analysis on the matter. However, my position is that his assumptions are reasonable, but uncertain assumptions none the less. Therefore, while Roy is likely to be 13+, we only have conclusive evidence for him being 12+. It seems to me that he can't be far away from level 13 now, though.
    Why do you say his assumptions are inconclusive? As far as I know, you're the only person who has stated such an opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Because he assumes that Thog is higher level than Roy, which we don't have evidence to show, although it is likely.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Why do you say his assumptions are inconclusive? As far as I know, you're the only person who has stated such an opinion.
    The assumption that enemies met by the Order are merely default creatures from the Monster Manual is very far-reaching.

    The basic rule of random encounters (spelled out in the DMG) is that they should be "level-appropriate". This has even been spoofed in the comic itself. Fighting creatures who give zero xp due to being too weak is not "level-appropriate". It is not fun, their loot is pathetic, and the whole exercise is just a waste of time, as any D&D player will tell you.

    So, a better way of going forward would be to assume that, on average, all encounters were on the average level of the party, and calculate the xp accordingly.

    However, this would still be inconclusive, since there is basically no way of knowing the exact level of all enemies the Order vanquished, apart from Rich telling us openly; and thus, all such assumptions are still only speculation.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothston View Post
    The assumption that enemies met by the Order are merely default creatures from the Monster Manual is very far-reaching.

    The basic rule of random encounters (spelled out in the DMG) is that they should be "level-appropriate". This has even been spoofed in the comic itself. Fighting creatures who give zero xp due to being too weak is not "level-appropriate". It is not fun, their loot is pathetic, and the whole exercise is just a waste of time, as any D&D player will tell you.

    So, a better way of going forward would be to assume that, on average, all encounters were on the average level of the party, and calculate the xp accordingly.

    However, this would still be inconclusive, since there is basically no way of knowing the exact level of all enemies the Order vanquished, apart from Rich telling us openly; and thus, all such assumptions are still only speculation.
    That's a valid point. However, the assumption we're working under pegs both random encounters as below EL 13, so if we were assuming that they were level-appropriate encounters, Roy would actually have MORE XP, and we would still have to make the assumption that Roy was level 13+, even 14+ (since if we take Eugene at his word, Roy is close to 14 if not there already).

    I feel comfortable making the assumption that the purple worm we saw was not an unusually weak one, or that the beetles we saw were not weaker than the ones we see in the Monster Manual. There aren't even rules for such monsters.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2012-05-07 at 02:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    That's a valid point. However, the assumption we're working under pegs both random encounters as below EL 13, so if we were assuming that they were level-appropriate encounters, Roy would actually have MORE XP, and we would still have to make the assumption that Roy was level 13+, even 14+ (since if we take Eugene at his word, Roy is close to 14 if not there already).

    I feel comfortable making the assumption that the purple worm we saw was not an unusually weak one, or that the beetles we saw were not weaker than the ones we see in the Monster Manual. There aren't even rules for such monsters.
    I am not supporting any of the sides in this debate, just pointing out that any attempt to calculate actual earned xp is, basically, doomed from the start since we have no way of knowing how much xp defeating those creatures was actually worth.

    The assumption that the monsters are simply copypasted from MM makes no mechanical sense, and the "rule of averages", as I have presented it, is an oversimplification with no room for DM creativity.

    Personally, I prefer to simply consider the entire OoTS party within 1 level of each other unless there is evidence to the contrary. But, of course, it is entertaining to read the debates.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothston View Post
    I am not supporting any of the sides in this debate, just pointing out that any attempt to calculate actual earned xp is, basically, doomed from the start since we have no way of knowing how much xp defeating those creatures was actually worth.

    The assumption that the monsters are simply copypasted from MM makes no mechanical sense, and the "rule of averages", as I have presented it, is an oversimplification with no room for DM creativity.

    Personally, I prefer to simply consider the entire OoTS party within 1 level of each other unless there is evidence to the contrary. But, of course, it is entertaining to read the debates.
    Couldn't agree with you more, brother.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I support listing Tarquin with Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit--as an either/or thing.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothston View Post
    I am not supporting any of the sides in this debate, just pointing out that any attempt to calculate actual earned xp is, basically, doomed from the start since we have no way of knowing how much xp defeating those creatures was actually worth.

    The assumption that the monsters are simply copypasted from MM makes no mechanical sense, and the "rule of averages", as I have presented it, is an oversimplification with no room for DM creativity.

    Personally, I prefer to simply consider the entire OoTS party within 1 level of each other unless there is evidence to the contrary. But, of course, it is entertaining to read the debates.
    Well, I suppose we could just assume absolutely nothing about anything, and say that even though there's no RAW way to fight a purple worm with a CR lower than 12 or a stag beetle with a CR lower than ...5? I forget... Rich conceivably could have made the OOTS fight an unusually weak version of monsters that were already weaker than the typical random encounter would call for. (Without telling us that they were weaker than normal, I might add.) Rich is perfectly capable of invalidating anything in this thread whenever and however he wants. But I think that if C&L Geekery is going to be of any use to anyone, it has to make some basic assumptions from time to time, or there's no point ever discussing things here.

    I've grown less interested in this thread over time because the authors have, somewhat understandably, become increasingly conservative about putting things in that aren't absolutely 100% proven, even though they're overwhelmingly probable. Please, let's not raise the standard of proof to even loftier heights. There's no need to. This is supposed to be a fun exercise, nothing more.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2012-05-07 at 11:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  10. - Top - End - #1090
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Assuming that creatures without any noticeable alterations don't have any alterations isn't exactly a leap of logic.
    Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-07 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    Assuming that creatures without any noticeable alterations don't have any alterations isn't exactly a leap of logic.
    An unadvanced Giant Stag Beetle is a large creature. A large creature should not be able to carry four or more medium creatures, which is just what we see them doing. In order to advance to huge size, they need extra hit dice, which increases their CR.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothston View Post
    The basic rule of random encounters (spelled out in the DMG) is that they should be "level-appropriate". This has even been spoofed in the comic itself. Fighting creatures who give zero xp due to being too weak is not "level-appropriate". It is not fun, their loot is pathetic, and the whole exercise is just a waste of time, as any D&D player will tell you.
    Incorrect assumption.
    It comes down to what the individual player's definition of fun.

    I ran a 1-Epic level Realms game that finished a couple years back. Two of the more amusing and "fun" fights that still gets mentioned as anecdotes were both hideously level inappropriate fights.

    1. The group are under a ruined city, and are fighting a horde of spell-stitched skeletons that have been created by a Draco-Lich necromancer. The skeletons are on the other side of chamber letting at the group with magic missiles and the like. The Fighter in the group with his Helm of Teleportation uses it to engage the skeletons as the group is taking heavy damage.

    He screws up the teleportation roll and ends up somewhere similar.

    When he comes out of the teleportation, there are a number of skeletons in front of him, some "allies" behind him. He lets loose with his array of fighter feats and takes them all down in a single round. Confused, the character turns around when he hears startled comments and sees a bunch of 1st level characters standing there, shocked. One of the characters, a cleric mutters something about an Avatar of Helm come to save them. The fighter looks back around the room, says "you're welcome" and teleports out.

    2. The characters are on Thanatos, gunning for Orcus. In the middle of one particularly bad night, the cleric's Undead buzzer goes off. The group scramble to their feet and begin to to prepare for battle. Buffs are cast, weapons are drawn, tactics are made.

    Then a single humanoid figure shambles into the midst of the group.

    The Frenzied Berserker triggers her Frenzy, her Rage, and Enlarges (due to a blessing). She leaps in and hits the critter for about 200+ damage with her sunblade.

    The common garden variety zombie explodes. The group are left bewildered and covered in zombie guts.

    Now, granted example 1 was merely a side-encounter and not really the true encounter, but level inappropriate encounters (both ways) can be very fun if played right.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Not to start the same nonsense over again, but can we set Tarquin's maximum BAB (and thus full-BAB-class level, though this doesn't rule out multiclassing) at 15, on the basis of his making three attacks in the first panel of 852?

  14. - Top - End - #1094
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Wow, I go away for a week and you guys add ten pages to the thread :)

    Catching up now. Oh yeah, Tarquin has a mask that says "nope".

    Also, to avoid getting into a whole "my assumption is better than your assumption" debate again, I would suggest simply listing both "Snatch Arrows or Gloves of Snatchery".
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Also, to avoid getting into a whole "my assumption is better than your assumption" debate again, I would suggest simply listing both "Snatch Arrows or Gloves of Snatchery".
    Okay. Under the same circumstance I've added [Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit]. I've also pegged his Dex as at least 13 because both of those feat possibilities require a Dex of 13. As per Tarquin's three attacks in 852, I've pegged his maximum level at 15 for now.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Hate to add to the confusion, but I think Tarquin limited himself to 3 attacks to keep his disguise up.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitzclowningham View Post
    Hate to add to the confusion, but I think Tarquin limited himself to 3 attacks to keep his disguise up.
    You may well be correct, but until we see him make a fourth attack or he admits this, we assume he didn't.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    An unadvanced Giant Stag Beetle is a large creature. A large creature should not be able to carry four or more medium creatures, which is just what we see them doing. In order to advance to huge size, they need extra hit dice, which increases their CR.
    Good observation. But fighting monsters with a higher CR does absolutely nothing to give Roy less XP, which is the only way we can justify him not being 13+.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    As per Tarquin's three attacks in 852, I've pegged his maximum level at 15 for now.
    It's possible he could be higher than that, just with some levels in non-full-BAB classes.
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  20. - Top - End - #1100
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Okay. Under the same circumstance I've added [Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit]. I've also pegged his Dex as at least 13 because both of those feat possibilities require a Dex of 13.
    Great. Suggestions for further additions:

    Improved Trip: Lack of AoO from Roy on Tarquin's trip attempt in panel 2;
    Hold the Line: Tarquin stabbing Belkar mid-jump with the arrow.

    As per Tarquin's three attacks in 852, I've pegged his maximum level at 15 for now.
    Just because he did 3 attacks on a full attack does not mean he can't do more. One of the reasons, as mentioned, may be his desire to keep up his disguise as Thog (who, so far, has shown a full attack of 3). And in general Tarquin has been very lax during this fight, not being dead set on destroying the Order at all.

    Another valid reason, also mentioned above, is that Tarquin may have a few levels in a non-full-BAB class (e.g. personally, I love a level of Cloistered Cleric, Swordsage or even Rogue on my warriors).

    So, while we can be certain that Tarquin is at least level 11 due to 3 attacks, we can't be sure that he's not higher than 15. That would be ridiculous to assume, anyway, since Elan is 15, and Tarquin defeated him effortlessly at his own game (pun-duel).

    Based solely on the attacks, I'd rather list Tarquin's level as 11+.
    Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-08 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Well, I suppose we could just assume absolutely nothing about anything
    There is no need for the reductio ad absurdum.

    and say that even though there's no RAW way to fight a purple worm with a CR lower than 12 or a stag beetle with a CR lower than ...5? I forget... Rich conceivably could have made the OOTS fight an unusually weak version of monsters that were already weaker than the typical random encounter would call for.
    There is also no need to put words in my mouth. I have no part in the debate concerning Roy's level, just the xp calculation methodology.

    Rich is perfectly capable of invalidating anything in this thread whenever and however he wants.
    Thank you for pointing out the obvious, but it was not my point at all.

    But I think that if C&L Geekery is going to be of any use to anyone, it has to make some basic assumptions from time to time, or there's no point ever discussing things here.
    The way people tried to calculate XP was a far-reaching assumption rather than a basic one.

    I've grown less interested in this thread over time because the authors have, somewhat understandably, become increasingly conservative about putting things in that aren't absolutely 100% proven, even though they're overwhelmingly probable. Please, let's not raise the standard of proof to even loftier heights.
    I agree with your sentiment, and also stand in favour of reasonable probabilities rather than ironclad 100% certainty. However, again, the way people tried to calculate XP did not seem solid enough to me to satisfy the reasonable probability criteria.

    Some of those calculations could be valid (though IMO even assuming Thog is exactly level 13 is a stretch), others were highly debatable (claiming the thri-kreen slavers were worth 0 xp) or just completely arbitrary (assigning xp value to the trap). On the whole, there is simply not enough hard data and too many assumptions to make the conclusion fully justifiable.
    Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-08 at 02:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    An unadvanced Giant Stag Beetle is a large creature. A large creature should not be able to carry four or more medium creatures, which is just what we see them doing. In order to advance to huge size, they need extra hit dice, which increases their CR.
    Why would a large creature be unable to carry 4 medium creatures? By default a creature can carry another creature if the mount is at least 1 size category larger and if the carrying capacity is sufficient.

    As large quadrupeds the beetles have an x3 modifier to carrying capacity. With their default STR of 23, that would put them at 1800 lbs maximum carry weight. That would be more than enough to carry 4 medium creatures, considering the average weight of a medium creature is about 100-150 lbs in D&D.

    Although, to be fair, those beetles did look huge size to me.
    Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-08 at 01:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grail View Post
    Incorrect assumption.
    It comes down to what the individual player's definition of fun.
    Well certainly you can use zero-xp low-level encounters for the laughs or for ego-stroking. However, that's a roleplaying rather than a mechanical choice. And after the one time it's played for laughs, it gets old fast. And considering you still need to roll the dice for every single attack, slaughtering by hand a roomful of level 1 zombies, for instance, becomes a boring - and pointless - chore.

    The DMG plainly instructs the DM to "choose monsters with Challenge Ratings that fall in a range from (EL – 6) to (EL + 2)" for random encounters (p.98). Incidentally, zero XP is suggested for monsters eight or more CRs lower than the character's level (p.38).

    In any case, the encounter in question (fight with slavers) was not played for laughs, and the characters' obvious superiority was not lampshaded (as in the famous case of "Belkar the Shoeless God of War"'s mountain of corpses). Vaarsuvius even calls the enemy "certainly threatening", they manage to capture Belkar, and have no problem with landing hits on Roy. The Order also didn't even fight, let alone defeat, any of the giant bugs. However, they did drive the enemy back, freed the captives, and killed the enemy leader along with a number of soldiers.

    Furthermore, the encounter had rewards which included, among other stuff, a belt of giant strength which Roy was happy to receive. Needless to say, zero-xp encounters wouldn't give such reasonable bounty.

    So, judging the encounter to be worth 0 xp due to the enemy's underwhelmingly low level is a far-reaching assumption in my book.
    Last edited by Lothston; 2012-05-08 at 02:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    The main problem isn't with beetles, who don't give that much exp either way, but with Thog, who can't say for certain is higher level than Roy.

    However, since it is likely that that was the case, it puts Roy as 13+ in that same kind limbo Mr. Scruffy being Belkar's animal companion, V having Overland Flight, and Haley dying the boots of speed were in before we got explicit confirmation on those issue: Likely, but not actually certain.

    I feel like the current encounter with Tarquin has a good chance of pushing him past the level-up line if he's not there already, though. Especially once the rest of the Linear Guild get involved. So how about we wait until that's resolved?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Arms and Equipment Guide discusses mounts- as long as the passenger isn't in the same space as the driver, the driver doesn't take Ride penalties.

    And "a creature can carry as many passengers as its space and carrying capacity allow. One Small or Medium sized rider or passenger can fit in each 5 ft square the creature occupies and still have room to move around and fight if necessary"
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Lothston, my post wasn't a refutation of your post, it was more of a protest against the general attitude of "we need everything to be able to pass a five-sigma test before we agree on it" that I feel prevails all too often in C&L Geekery. I wasn't putting words in your mouth or trying to reduce your argument to the absurd. My apologies. I should have made that more clear.

    On a more relevant note, the maximum strength of any of the creatures Roy fought is not in question here. Assumptions like "the thri-keen gave 0 XP" were made to be conservative, not to go out on a limb. Because all we can say is that Roy is 13+. We can't determine his maximum level. Thus, we don't care if the beetles were Large or Huge, and we don't care what challenges, if any, Roy overcame off-panel. The important thing here is to make the minimum number of reasonable assumptions possible. My contention, however, is that even these minimal assumptions put Roy over the level 13 mark.

    I think it comes down to one question. Is Thog a personal rival of Roy, a character who is always at the same level as Roy or higher than him? I think this was discussed a while ago, shortly after the end of the colosseum fight, and the consensus was that they were indeed personal rivals who followed that rule. If he is, than Thog must be level 13+, and Roy must therefore be level 13+.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  27. - Top - End - #1107
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    And "a creature can carry as many passengers as its space and carrying capacity allow. One Small or Medium sized rider or passenger can fit in each 5 ft square the creature occupies and still have room to move around and fight if necessary"
    Which is just the point, really. A large creature has four spaces a passenger could occupy. However, we see the slavers fleeing with captured slaves - this would put a large creature over its four-passenger limit. Hence, huge creature.

  28. - Top - End - #1108
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I think it comes down to one question. Is Thog a personal rival of Roy, a character who is always at the same level as Roy or higher than him? I think this was discussed a while ago, shortly after the end of the colosseum fight, and the consensus was that they were indeed personal rivals who followed that rule. If he is, than Thog must be level 13+, and Roy must therefore be level 13+.
    Hm, I do you have a link by any chance? It seems to me that comic 795 would suggest that Thog is not a personal rival of Roy. But I assume this has been discussed to death already earlier.

  29. - Top - End - #1109
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sniffnoy View Post
    Hm, I do you have a link by any chance? It seems to me that comic 795 would suggest that Thog is not a personal rival of Roy. But I assume this has been discussed to death already earlier.
    Actually, I believe the consensus was that it showed they were personal rivals, because the comic is basically a back-and-forth debate between Roy and Thog over whether they're exactly that. Roy insists that they're not, because they have nothing in common (which is, of course, not true anyway), but the end of the strip shows that Thog is indeed like Roy because he reacts to his tusk being broken in exactly the same way Roy reacted to his sword being shattered. The fact that Roy doesn't (or at least didn't) consider Thog a personal rival isn't relevant. Elan doesn't consider Nale a personal rival, or at least didn't until the return of the Linear Guild in Cliffport, but that doesn't mean they aren't. Rivalry can be a one-way street.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  30. - Top - End - #1110
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    No real consensus was reached on that issue. If a consensus had been reached, Thog wouldn't be currently listed as 11+, especially given that the logic for him being 11+ is based on something completely unrelated to that.

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