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  1. - Top - End - #1111
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    No real consensus was reached on that issue. If a consensus had been reached, Thog wouldn't be currently listed as 11+, especially given that the logic for him being 11+ is based on something completely unrelated to that.
    Well, it's high effort for low gain, because Thog being a personal rival is just ambiguous enough to make consensus difficult, and Roy is 12+ right now while Thog is 11+, so the change is small.

  2. - Top - End - #1112
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Comic #852, second-to-last panel, Tarquin hits Roy with a hefty attack that knocks him off his feet and leaves him stunned.

    Was this a feat that's not already captured? Sorry. Been a long long time since I last played DnD.

  3. - Top - End - #1113
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    That's a pretty common maneuver in OOTS, like Roy vs Thog or Miko vs Hinjo. My personal instinct is it's a stylistic choice, but we'll see what others say.
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  4. - Top - End - #1114
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    As per Tarquin's three attacks in 852, I've pegged his maximum level at 15 for now.
    ...maybe. We've got the same problem with Tarquin that we used to have with Xykon; I.e. "Is this really his 'A' game?"

    Tarquin could easily be holding back just to make it interesting and/or not kill all of his son's friends. Yeah, it's not "proof", but fundamentally I don't think he wants to win this one. He certainly doesn't want to wipe out the order. It's hard to picture him putting himself in a situation where he needs to rely on Nail for all things Snarly and/or dealing with the big bad.

  5. - Top - End - #1115
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    No real consensus was reached on that issue. If a consensus had been reached, Thog wouldn't be currently listed as 11+, especially given that the logic for him being 11+ is based on something completely unrelated to that.
    I can't remember what thread this was discussed in, though. I don't know if it was Geekery or not - I suspect not, because I don't remember the discussion getting very technical.

    In any case, we're discussing it now, so let's do that instead of relying on the precedent established in a discussion only one or two people even sort of remember.
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    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  6. - Top - End - #1116
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Sure. In that case, I would argue against the 'personal rival' thing applying. We have evidence showing that Roy does not consider Thog to be a personal rival, and this weakens the argument to the point where we cannot take it as fact, and we certainly cannot safely use it as evidence to support a different conclusion.
    Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-09 at 12:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    Sure. In that case, I would argue against the 'personal rival' thing applying. We have evidence showing that Roy does not consider Thog to be a personal rival, and this weakens the argument to the point where we cannot take it as fact, and we certainly cannot safely use it as evidence to support a different conclusion.
    But most of Roy's other claims in #795 were fairly decisively invalidated by the last two panels.

    Well, my basic conclusion about Thog is that it's been 400 strips since we saw him at 11+ for sure, so I'd accept even moderate evidence for his minimum level being higher by now.

  8. - Top - End - #1118
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    In any case, we're discussing it now, so let's do that instead of relying on the precedent established in a discussion only one or two people even sort of remember.
    Agreed. We can quote this previous discussion, but it's possible to achieve a new conclusion - especially if we have new data. Do we have any geekery stuff to add?

    About Tarquin's level... as many has already said, his attacks are no real evidence of his max level. We don't know his classes and don't know his angle.

  9. - Top - End - #1119
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    The point that Tarquin may have a less-than-full BAB class, even a splash, is a good one, therefore I have dropped Tarquin's upper level limit until we see more information. We're still in a phase of a previously unknown character revealing stuff about himself, so I expect his character sheet to be pretty fluid for this battle.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
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  10. - Top - End - #1120
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I think hinjo has a higher charisma than 12+
    In the battle for azure city, he says "I can make any save you can dish out" to the huecava (I think). For a level 12-ish paladin that seems overconfident, unless he has a high charisma modifier to allow divine grace to work.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by kickassfrog View Post
    I think hinjo has a higher charisma than 12+
    In the battle for azure city, he says "I can make any save you can dish out" to the huecava (I think). For a level 12-ish paladin that seems overconfident, unless he has a high charisma modifier to allow divine grace to work.
    Paladins have good Fortitude saves, which is what the huecuva was targetting.

  12. - Top - End - #1122
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Paladins have good Fortitude saves, which is what the huecuva was targetting.
    In addition, it was "battletalk". In battle, you do not say things as "I think you might overcome me soon" or "Well, actually, you are the better fighter than me, I fear I you'll overome my save" or "You can hit my AC with just a two!"
    No, you say things as "You will never take this city!", "You will never defeat us", "You'd need a 20 to even scratch me!" or "I can make any save you can possibly ditch out!"
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    OK, now that Rich has released official minis for OotS, does anyone have stats for the main characters at 1st Level?

    My son and some of his friends want to play as Roy, Haley, Elan and the rest, but they want to start at the beginning. Anyone want to take a stab at it?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    OK, now that Rich has released official minis for OotS, does anyone have stats for the main characters at 1st Level?

    My son and some of his friends want to play as Roy, Haley, Elan and the rest, but they want to start at the beginning. Anyone want to take a stab at it?
    Well, I would definitely not use our best estimates of their in-game stats, because their attribute score distributions are pretty horrendously unfair (just look at Roy's stat array).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    OK, now that Rich has released official minis for OotS, does anyone have stats for the main characters at 1st Level?
    In a word? No. One can, however, make a quick and dirty approximation, tending towards the racial averages for all stats. That is, use the minimum ability score if the stat in question is unquestionably higher than average, the maximum ability score if the stat in question is unquestionably lower than average, and the average score if the stat in question is unknown or if its possible range includes the average. In some instances, this will NOT reflect their probable stats in-comic. Roy, for instance, almost certainly has higher-than-average Dex and Con.

    Note that these characters come unequipped, so their "Armor Class", "Attack", and "Full Attack" lines are not filled out. Also, like O-Chul, I have speculated a little bit on some of their feats and skills. I apologize.

    @ Math Mage's point: eh, the stats we've derived for the OOTS are within the bounds of possibility with rolling 3d6 for each stat.

    The Order at level 1, according to the system above:
    Spoiler
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    ROY GREENHILT, male fighter 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d10 (10 hp)
    Initiative +0
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +1/+4
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities
    Saves Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +2
    Abilities Str 17, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12
    Skills Intimidate +5, Knowledge: Arcana +4, Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering +4, Ride +1, Spellcraft +4, Swim +6
    Feats Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
    Alignment lawful good

    BELKAR BITTERLEAF, male ranger 1
    Size/Type Small humanoid (halfling)
    Hit Dice 1d8 (8 hp)
    Initiative +2
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +1/-2
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Halfling traits
    Special Qualities Halfling traits
    Saves Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +0
    Abilities Str 13, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 10
    Skills Balance +5, Climb +4, Craft: Trapmaking +3, Hide +5, Intimidate +3, Jump +4, Move Silently +5, Profession: Gourmet Chef +2
    Feats Power Attack, Track
    Alignment chaotic evil

    DURKON THUNDERSHIELD, male cleric 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (dwarf)
    Hit Dice 1d8+1 (9 hp)
    Initiative -1
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+2
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Dwarf traits
    Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits, spells
    Saves Fort +3, Ref -1, Will +5
    Abilities Str 14, Dex 9, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8
    Skills Heal +7, Knowledge: Religion +4
    Feats Martial Weapon Proficiency: Warhammer
    Alignment lawful good

    ELAN THE BARD, male bard 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d6 (6 hp)
    Initiative +1
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+0
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1, spells
    Saves Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +1
    Abilities Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 17
    Skills Diplomacy +6, Hide +4, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Perform: Sing +7, Perform: String Instruments +6, Ride +4, Tumble +4
    Feats Dodge, Mobility
    Alignment chaotic good

    HALEY STARSHINE, female rogue 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d6 (6 hp)
    Initiative +3
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+1
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Sneak attack +1d6
    Special Qualities Trapfinding
    Saves Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +0
    Abilities Str 13, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
    Skills Appraise +4, Bluff +5, Disable Device +6, Escape Artist +6, Forgery +4, Hide +7, Open Lock +7, Search +5, Sense Motive +3, Tumble +6, Use Magic Device +4, Use Rope+6
    Feats Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow, Point Blank Shot
    Alignment chaotic good

    VAARSUVIUS OF IVYLEAF, wizard (evoker) 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (elf)
    Hit Dice 1d4-1 (3 hp)
    Initiative +0
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/-1
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities Elven traits, spells, summon familiar
    Saves Fort -1, Ref +0, Will +2
    Abilities Str 9, Dex 11, Con 8, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 9
    Skills Concentration +3, Craft: Alchemy +7, Decipher Script +7, Knowledge: Arcana +7, Spellcraft +7
    Feats Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Evocation
    Alignment neutral


    The Order at level 1, each built with 25 PB (not elite array):
    Spoiler
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    ROY GREENHILT, male fighter 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d10+1 (11 hp)
    Initiative +0
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +1/+4
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities
    Saves Fort +3, Ref -1, Will +1
    Abilities Str 16, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10
    Skills Intimidate +4, Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering +3, Ride +0, Spellcraft +3, Swim +6
    Feats Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
    Alignment lawful good

    BELKAR BITTERLEAF, male ranger 1
    Size/Type Small humanoid (halfling)
    Hit Dice 1d8 (8 hp)
    Initiative +2
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +1/-1
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Halfling traits
    Special Qualities Halfling traits
    Saves Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +0
    Abilities Str 14, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 11
    Skills Balance +5, Climb +5, Craft: Trapmaking +3, Hide +5, Intimidate +3, Jump +5, Move Silently +5, Profession: Gourmet Chef +2
    Feats Power Attack, Track
    Alignment chaotic evil

    DURKON THUNDERSHIELD, male cleric 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (dwarf)
    Hit Dice 1d8+1 (9 hp)
    Initiative -1
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+2
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Dwarf traits
    Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits, spells
    Saves Fort +3, Ref -1, Will +5
    Abilities Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8
    Skills Heal +7, Knowledge: Religion +4
    Feats Martial Weapon Proficiency: Warhammer
    Alignment lawful good

    ELAN THE BARD, male bard 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d6 (6 hp)
    Initiative +1
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+0
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1, spells
    Saves Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +1
    Abilities Str 11, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 17
    Skills Diplomacy +6, Hide +4, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Perform: Sing +7, Perform: String Instruments +6, Ride +4, Tumble +4
    Feats Dodge, Mobility
    Alignment chaotic good

    HALEY STARSHINE, female rogue 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d6 (6 hp)
    Initiative +3
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+1
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Sneak attack +1d6
    Special Qualities Trapfinding
    Saves Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +0
    Abilities Str 12, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 11
    Skills Appraise +4, Bluff +4, Disable Device +6, Escape Artist +6, Forgery +4, Hide +7, Open Lock +7, Search +5, Sense Motive +3, Tumble +6, Use Magic Device +3, Use Rope+6
    Feats Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow, Point Blank Shot
    Alignment chaotic good

    VAARSUVIUS OF IVYLEAF, wizard (evoker) 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (elf)
    Hit Dice 1d4 (4 hp)
    Initiative +0
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/-1
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities Elven traits, spells, summon familiar
    Saves Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +2
    Abilities Str 9, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 11, Cha 10
    Skills Concentration +4, Craft: Alchemy +7, Decipher Script +7, Knowledge: Arcana +7, Spellcraft +7
    Feats Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Evocation
    Alignment neutral


    The Order at level 1, each built with the elite array (25 PB)
    Spoiler
    Show
    ROY GREENHILT, male fighter 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d10 (10 hp)
    Initiative +0
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +1/+3
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities
    Saves Fort +2, Ref -1, Will +1
    Abilities Str 15, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 12
    Skills Intimidate +5, Knowledge: Arcana +4, Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering +4, Ride +0, Spellcraft +4, Swim +5
    Feats Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
    Alignment lawful good

    BELKAR BITTERLEAF, male ranger 1
    Size/Type Small humanoid (halfling)
    Hit Dice 1d8+2 (10 hp)
    Initiative +2
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +1/-2
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Halfling traits
    Special Qualities Halfling traits
    Saves Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +0
    Abilities Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 12
    Skills Balance +5, Climb +4, Craft: Trapmaking +3, Hide +5, Intimidate +4, Jump +4, Move Silently +5, Profession: Gourmet Chef +2
    Feats Power Attack, Track
    Alignment chaotic evil

    DURKON THUNDERSHIELD, male cleric 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (dwarf)
    Hit Dice 1d8+2 (10 hp)
    Initiative -1
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+2
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Dwarf traits
    Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits, spells
    Saves Fort +4, Ref -1, Will +4
    Abilities Str 14, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 8
    Skills Concentration +6, Heal +7, Knowledge: Religion +4
    Feats Martial Weapon Proficiency: Warhammer
    Alignment lawful good

    ELAN THE BARD, male bard 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d6+1 (7 hp)
    Initiative +1
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+1
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1, spells
    Saves Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +2
    Abilities Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15
    Skills Diplomacy +5, Hide +5, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Perform: Sing +6, Perform: String Instruments +6, Ride +5, Tumble +5
    Feats Dodge, Mobility
    Alignment chaotic good

    HALEY STARSHINE, female rogue 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice 1d6 (6 hp)
    Initiative +2
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/+2
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks Sneak attack +1d6
    Special Qualities Trapfinding
    Saves Fort +0, Ref +4, Will -1
    Abilities Str 14, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 12
    Skills Appraise +4, Bluff +5, Disable Device +5, Escape Artist +5, Forgery +4, Hide +6, Open Lock +6, Search +5, Sense Motive +2, Tumble +5, Use Magic Device +4, Use Rope+5
    Feats Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow, Point Blank Shot
    Alignment chaotic good

    VAARSUVIUS OF IVYLEAF, wizard (evoker) 1
    Size/Type Medium humanoid (elf)
    Hit Dice 1d4+1 (5 hp)
    Initiative +2
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class
    Base Atk/Grapple +0/-1
    Attack
    Full Attack
    Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks
    Special Qualities Elven traits, spells, summon familiar
    Saves Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +3
    Abilities Str 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 10
    Skills Concentration +4, Craft: Alchemy +5, Decipher Script +5, Knowledge: Arcana +5, Spellcraft +6
    Feats Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Evocation
    Alignment neutral
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2012-05-16 at 08:03 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #1126
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Eh, those stats come out a bit wonky, though I appreciate your attempt to match them with the order and what they have demonstrated in-comic. I'd suggest just using the elite array (or a higher array) matching up with the likely stat hierarchy for each character. That way you get more balanced, game-appropriate scores on the PCs than, say, a 10 Con on a fighter.
    Editor and playtester for Legend.

  17. - Top - End - #1127
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Eh, those stats come out a bit wonky, though I appreciate your attempt to match them with the order and what they have demonstrated in-comic. I'd suggest just using the elite array (or a higher array) matching up with the likely stat hierarchy for each character. That way you get more balanced, game-appropriate scores on the PCs than, say, a 10 Con on a fighter.
    The problem with this is that half the characters have arrays significantly better than Elite (25 PB), and half are significantly worse-off. Here are the point buys necessary to arrive at the stats I generated:

    33 PB
    20 PB
    26 PB
    24 PB
    30 PB
    17 PB

    Of course, that's not the real problem. If fairness is the main concern, then of course fudge away. If, however, faithfulness to the characters as presented in the comic is the main concern (for instance, having Roy actually be quite intelligent and wise), then SHO and his whippersnapper players will have to accept gross imbalance. Which is alright. They are, presumably, playing 3.5 after all.

    In the spirit of catering to all options, I'll work up some statblocks with the Order all using a 25 PB (which is, incidentally, the Order's average PB according to the system I used; huh), and using the elite array. But I won't be happy about it.

    EDIT: done. See the other post.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2012-05-16 at 08:33 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #1128
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    In addition, it was "battletalk". In battle, you do not say things as "I think you might overcome me soon" or "Well, actually, you are the better fighter than me, I fear I you'll overome my save" or "You can hit my AC with just a two!"
    No, you say things as "You will never take this city!", "You will never defeat us", "You'd need a 20 to even scratch me!" or "I can make any save you can possibly ditch out!"
    Good point, but saying it after just having made a save lends credence to the theory that he actually could make the saves.

    Also, I took any to mean /any/. As in, will and reflex saves as well. But my interpretation may be totally wrong.

    Also, he does lead a whole army into battle.

  19. - Top - End - #1129
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    The problem with this is that half the characters have arrays significantly better than Elite (25 PB), and half are significantly worse-off. Here are the point buys necessary to arrive at the stats I generated:

    33 PB
    20 PB
    26 PB
    24 PB
    30 PB
    17 PB

    Of course, that's not the real problem. If fairness is the main concern, then of course fudge away. If, however, faithfulness to the characters as presented in the comic is the main concern (for instance, having Roy actually be quite intelligent and wise), then SHO and his whippersnapper players will have to accept gross imbalance. Which is alright. They are, presumably, playing 3.5 after all.

    In the spirit of catering to all options, I'll work up some statblocks with the Order all using a 25 PB (which is, incidentally, the Order's average PB according to the system I used; huh), and using the elite array. But I won't be happy about it.

    EDIT: done. See the other post.
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  20. - Top - End - #1130
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I'd just like to note that, in 3.5 edition D&D, the default method of stat generation is "roll 4d6, drop lowest die, arrange as desired."

    This is far more likely to produce Roy than rolling 3d6, never mind some manner of point buy, which is obviously not in effect.

  21. - Top - End - #1131
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I'd just like to note that, in 3.5 edition D&D, the default method of stat generation is "roll 4d6, drop lowest die, arrange as desired."

    This is far more likely to produce Roy than rolling 3d6, never mind some manner of point buy, which is obviously not in effect.
    Does it matter? Either rolling 3d6 or 4d6b3 can produce the Order's stats as observed, and since no dice were actually rolled in their creation either by Rich in the writing process, in-universe, or for SHO's game, I fail to see the difference it makes. Well, beyond noting the obvious, that the Order are not built using an equal PB in-comic.

  22. - Top - End - #1132
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    The problem with this is that half the characters have arrays significantly better than Elite (25 PB), and half are significantly worse-off. Here are the point buys necessary to arrive at the stats I generated:

    33 PB
    20 PB
    26 PB
    24 PB
    30 PB
    17 PB
    Isn't it funny how Vaarsuvius and Belkar, with low point-buy scores, are two of the most powerful characters in the Order?
    Last edited by Flame of Anor; 2012-05-17 at 11:27 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #1133
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    it would be if DD had class balance but the game is never been optimized for 1v1.

  24. - Top - End - #1134
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    33 PB
    20 PB
    26 PB
    24 PB
    30 PB
    17 PB
    The thing is... those PB values here in the thread are the minimum PBs needed for the stats we saw in the comic.
    We have no idea if Belkar, Roy, Elan and the others are not actually PB 50 or whatever.

    (They are not, but that's not the point here.)
    Last edited by Winter; 2012-05-18 at 12:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I know it's reading between the lines a little, but can we assume that, from 853, Tarquin does not have Improved Uncanny Dodge at sufficient level to prevent Haley from slitting his gizzard?

  26. - Top - End - #1136
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    My gut says it's best to wait until we see if Tarquin has levels in a class that may theoretically grant Uncanny Dodge.
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  27. - Top - End - #1137
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Well, I guess we can now specify that Tarquin's armor is plate of some kind.

    ...also, since half the damage from Flame Strike is Divine and not subject to fire resistance, and Tarquin appears undamaged, can we take this as a bit of weak evidence that he may have evasion somehow? I know, I know, I'm really not buying this one myself, and it doesn't *look* like the times we've seen Haley use evasion... maybe he just took a little bit of damage, but it isn't noticeable?

  28. - Top - End - #1138
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    ...also, since half the damage from Flame Strike is Divine and not subject to fire resistance, and Tarquin appears undamaged, can we take this as a bit of weak evidence that he may have evasion somehow?
    Maybe. I infer from Belkar's remark that Tarquin has fire resistance of some kind, and that this is why he didn't take fire damage. I also get the impression that Malack knows that he can safely target a Flamestrike over Tarquin, because he's protected anyway. That would imply that Tarquin is simply immune - not just on a successful saving throw.
    So it is possible that Tarquin has resistance to divine energy as well (although I'm not aware of a way of getting that) or that The Giant overlooked that Flamestrikes deal damage that isn't fire.
    Mind you, that isn't proven either. I'm just suggesting some alternatives, and I don't think the currnet comic proves he has Evasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    The problem with this is that half the characters have arrays significantly better than Elite (25 PB), and half are significantly worse-off. Here are the point buys necessary to arrive at the stats I generated:
    Hm, so how would point buy work in-universe? Do newborn babies get to make a choice for their stats (and if so, why does Roy have stats that aren't good for a fighter)? Or perhaps their parents do (and if so, why didn't Eugene give his son stats that mandated a wizard class)? Do we have any remarks from The Giant about whether point buy exists in his world?
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  29. - Top - End - #1139
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Maybe. I infer from Belkar's remark that Tarquin has fire resistance of some kind, and that this is why he didn't take fire damage. I also get the impression that Malack knows that he can safely target a Flamestrike over Tarquin, because he's protected anyway. That would imply that Tarquin is simply immune - not just on a successful saving throw.
    So it is possible that Tarquin has resistance to divine energy as well (although I'm not aware of a way of getting that) or that The Giant overlooked that Flamestrikes deal damage that isn't fire.
    Mind you, that isn't proven either. I'm just suggesting some alternatives, and I don't think the currnet comic proves he has Evasion.
    Oh, I definitely agree that it isn't enough to say for certain he has it, and I would say that the comic is sufficient proof for listing him as having an item that grants him either resistance or immunity to fire damage. I just don't know of any way to negate Divine damage, save for evasion in this case. Maybe he was immune to the fire damage, made his save on the divine damage, and as a result took so little damage that it isn't readily apparent on his person. But I do have my eye out for anything in the future that may appear to be evasion at work.

  30. - Top - End - #1140
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

    I think SoD gives us good reason to believe Flame Strike doesn't work exactly as written. Consider that Redcloak didn't prepare Flame Strike against treants because he assumed they would have Pro-Fire buffs up--not to say that he would necessarily have prepared them for half damage, but it sounds like he assumed they would do nothing. And I don't think Instantaneous duration fire spells are allowed to burn whole forests down, though I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-18 at 06:14 PM.

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